Do I need to explain what's wrong with this idea? Imagine that I started a program called "Rails boys summer of code".
The alternative is obvious -- have qualified girls apply to an appropriately named rails summer of code, and if they're rejected based on their gender, take the responsible parties to court. This is how gender equality comes into being -- not by creating a set-aside program conspicuous only for its overt sexism.
The underlying message of this program is that as programmers, girls are different than boys. This is both false and absurd -- mathematics, logic and computer science have no gender.
I didn't have access to a (personal) computer till a few years before starting college.
I'm currently using a 3 year old machine, granted it's still pretty fast for my needs, but if I saw a program that was only for girls, and there weren't any alternative for boys (at the age group this is targeted at) I would have been quite disappointed.
I don't bear any ill-will towards this program, but I feel that kids are mostly prejudice free, and this makes them see some form of gender discrimination.
What is next, you'll ask for funding for programs targeted at girls that are only hispanic or indian or black?
> What is next, you'll ask for funding for programs targeted at girls that are only hispanic or indian or black?
How on earth did you draw this conclusion from a post in which I make exactly the opposite point? My point was that programs that single out groups, that sequester, are counterproductive. Read it again.
On re-reading your post, I now think you attached it to the wrong comment. That's the only rational explanation.
I got my little sister - almost 15 - to apply for this program. It's important for me that she has a very safe and welcoming environment to get excited about coding - since this will be her introduction to it. I feel like having 15-16 year old boys in the program would be very distracting and counterproductive for her.
This is from experience. I'm a woman who codes, and I mostly go to the women who code meetups because I can learn in a safe space that I personally enjoy.
The first time I went to a normal Rails meetup - with majority guys - there were two guys having a pissing contest about whether ERB is better than HAML, and then another guy was apologizing to me for the two guys being "so technical".
In meetups where there are only women, we get to actually learn and support each other, and it's great. I want the same environment for my sister to learn in.
> I feel like having 15-16 year old boys in the program would be very distracting and counterproductive for her.
Well, wouldn't having 15-16 year old girls around be distracting and counterproductive for boys? Also, how do those poor kids manage to learn anything in schools? It must be super difficult for them, having all those other kids of the opposite gender around. Maybe we should bring back the whole separate schools for boys and girls thing.
> I got my little sister - almost 15 - to apply for this program. It's important for me that she has a very safe and welcoming environment to get excited about coding - since this will be her introduction to it. I feel like having 15-16 year old boys in the program would be very distracting and counterproductive for her.
All completely reasonable points, and your choices also seem reasonable. But let me ask when, if ever, your sister will be able to leave that sequestered environment and enter the real world. Isn't it our goal to take down these barriers and achieve gender equality?
Gender equality doesn't mean two colonies, one of men and another of women. It means one society composed of men and women. Or am I wrong about that?
> I mostly go to the women who code meetups because I can learn in a safe space that I personally enjoy.
Yes, understood. That's why men go to meetings where only men are present -- same reasoning, same outcome.
> In meetups where there are only women, we get to actually learn and support each other, and it's great. I want the same environment for my sister to learn in.
I know a secret that I'm going to reveal to you -- that works for men too. But it has the unfortunate side effect of making men intolerant of the presence of women. Do you want that outcome for women?
I ask this in all sincerity, without judgment or rancor -- do you want a society in which men and women pay attention only to their own instincts and needs, and make no effort to construct a society composed of both men and women?
> But let me ask when, if ever, your sister will be able to leave that sequestered environment and enter the real world. Isn't it our goal to take down these barriers and achieve gender equality?
Keep in mind this will be her first experience actually programming. I created an iOS app with her - she drew everything an did the voice overs - but hasn't programmed at all.
I want her to get so excited about coding and making something, that she sticks with it. If she's scared away by her first experience, as many women are, there will continue to be a pretty big inequality in tech.
That's why programs like these are so important. I stick with it because I LOVE what I do now and have the confidence and knowledge to stand up to my coworkers, etc - but it took a lot to get to this point. Having safe support in the early stages is critical.
> I know a secret that I'm going to reveal to you -- that works for men too. But it has the unfortunate side effect of making men intolerant of the presence of women. Do you want that outcome for women?
I work with men all day. I also go to meetups where there are men - going to one tonight b/c there is a great speaker and I will not miss out on the opportunity only because there are men at the meetup. Also going to a tech conference later this month, where there will be men.
However, going to these events takes a lot of effort and work for me - I have to deal with people not taking me seriously, guys potentially hitting on me, having to prove myself, etc. Would be great if guys made some effort too, but most don't. I can only tolerate so much of it.
That said, again, if there is a safe space for women to learn together and discuss issues they're facing, they're more likely to stay in the industry, which makes a more equal society of women and men. And as more women work with men in tech as programmers, the more men learn to tolerate and work with women. As more women are supported by other women, we will venture out and go to the normal meetups, but the women who code meetups are a great safe environment to get started with and keep as a support network throughout our careers.
Did you make your feelings and experience known to the organizers of the normal Rails meetup?
I say this because everyone should have a "safe and welcoming environment" and it is the failure of that meetup to provide that for everyone. They should look at ways they can make the meetup more friendly for all people whether men/women, beginner/expert etc.
Maybe a man attending the same night would have the same experience and feelings, and he doesn't have the option to attend the only women meetups.
> The underlying message of this program is that as programmers, girls are different than boys. This is both false and absurd -- mathematics, logic and computer science have no gender.
No, the underlying message is that society treats women and men differently, and thus comparisons like what you just did (changing "girls" for "boys") do not work. You may not believe that, but that's another problem. If I create a program to help poor people become programmers, am I really saying that rich people are different than poor people? And do you think I can use "low income" and "high income" interchangeably on those programs?
Honestly if the foundation's goal is to support women trying to break into the programming community without imposing any external ideology (particularly not any virulent postmodernism), I likely wouldn't have any qualms with donating.
I'm not really familiar with what they actually do, however, and whether they have any notable efficacy.
As an Asian person who undergoes a ton of implicit and occasionally explicit racial discrimination (I have often been called out repeatedly for belonging to a specific nationality, and been the butt of numerous jokes regarding it), it is somewhat disheartening to see people who are higher than you on the social totem pole (e.g. highly-educated white females) often being the beneficiaries of programs such as these on the basis of their gender. It is absolutely true that they too probably have been discriminated against in the technology field, but in the overall social arena, they are in a much better position than, say, Asian men.
As a result, in an average tech workplace (which is a combination of technical and social factors), I think Asian people are at just as much, if not more at a disadvantage than women.
I don't want to feel animosity, or even ambivalence towards such programs, but given the reason above, it is a bit difficult for me not to. Any thoughts/solutions that the HN crowd might have about this? By nature, I'm not particularly inclined towards $SOCIETAL_GROUP-specific programs, but if that is the solution people think is useful, I'd be willing to advocate for it in the future, and focus towards soliciting donations, etc. for that instead.
[edit: Downvoters, I'm asking for opinions or solutions. Why not offer one in addition to your downvote?]
I'm also an Asian male and you're right about the implicit (and sometimes explicit) discrimination we deal with. I was at a party last summer and someone called me a "Jap" but was "just kidding." White people don't deal with this.
However, I also benefit from being an Asian male software developer. Whenever I meet new people in business, I am automatically assumed to be smart which has proven highly profitable. Finding work is never an issue and I make quite a comfortable living because people with money assume I am good at what I do - I have less to prove than a programmer who is say, Latino or perhaps female.
My solution? If you can't beat em, join em. Why don't you volunteer to teach at a girls code school? Might meet some cute female instructors who also like programming - pretty rare. Use your strengths in whatever way you can.
As a post-script to the "Jap" guy, a few weeks later he got fired from his job and has been out of work since. He is a high school educated white male in his late 20s. We all have our challenges and if being white also included being stupid, ignorant and money-less like this guy, I'll take Asian.
I am white. I get called 'brit' or 'pom' or 'white guy' and so on all the time by colleagues of various ethnic or cultural backgrounds. I take it as friendly jibing unless I can see there is clear intention to upset.
Monkeynotes, don't take this the wrong way but you will never understand what it's like to be called a derogatory term as minority in a society that constantly denigrates your background. It's just not the same. It just isn't.
I think you're very sadly mistaken - white people can be victims of racism, too, you dig? I grew up and went through a school system where white people were by far the minority, and yes, I had to deal with racism.
edit: Downvotes? Yikes. Like most people, I'd prefer some constructive replies instead of silent detractors, but it is what it is.
I guess. If you were born in that country and every day you dealt with negative portrayals of people who like you (William Hung, Long Duck Dong, etc), you would probably understand.
More importantly, I'm not asking you to understand. It's not your responsibility and I don't blame you for any of this. It's just something that Asian males have to learn to deal with. We just have to man up and deal with it.
I agree that people can be racist against whites too. However if you're the majority in the country you'll experience it far less than if you're say 6%.
Strange, I feel like I have to prove myself more because I'm an Asian man. Western society doesn't look fondly on Asian men's looks and so literally the only thing I have going for me are my accomplishments and skills.
Yes, some people might think I'm more intelligent based on my race. On the other hand, some people may think I'm not qualified for leadership or public facing positions because of male Asian stereotypes.
True. I acknowledge that. The deal comes with both the good and the bad. That's all I'm saying - don't forget the good. For me, at least, it's quite good. It's almost shameful how much I get paid by the hour to write code while watching the Mets play (supposedly) professional baseball on TV.
Why do you feel the need to say that Asian people are more at a disadvantaged that women? Can't we agree that both are at a disadvantage and we should help them? Your statement is highly subjective and really difficult to prove. You are also implying that we should help women less and Asian people more. Don't be like that. There's absolutely no need to try to empower one group while lowering another one.
Not the OP, but in this context, I think Asian men are meant to feel privileged by virtue of being a) male and b) heavily represented in the tech scene. And yet at the end of the day, Asian men suffer from racial disadvantages that may never be addressed in our lifetime. Hence, there is sort of a cognitive dissonance that develops.
Both groups may be at a disadvantage and may have certain privileges, but people rarely acknowledge the (1) the disadvantage of Asians, especially Asian men, and (2) the privileges of white women. Secondly, the population of Asian men is 3% in the US, the population of white women is 32%, and the feminist movement is far stronger than the Asian (or Asian male) movement, thus Asian men are also placed in the "privileged" and "oppressor" class.
So while one powerful group is pushing for representation of women in engineering, another is fighting for broader social equity for Asians - the latter is often seen as less legitimate when applied to Asian men specifically (low social status, lower marriage/dating prospects), or which are huger racial things that may never be fixed anytime soon in a US society while Asians remain a tiny minority, because those are the kinds of inequalities that people tolerate, while under representation of women in engineering is widely recognized and addressed as a bad thing.
> Why do you feel the need to say that Asian people are more at a disadvantaged that women? Can't we agree that both are at a disadvantage and we should help them?
I was trying to say that Asian people are also at a disadvantage, and that we should try to help them as well. I have seen several "X for Women in Tech" initiatives, and absolutely none for, say, "Asian Men in Tech".
> You are also implying that we should help women less and Asian people more
That implication may seem true if you think of "resources for helping" as a finite amount. I was just saying that we should help Asian people more. This could actually be a good thing. Maybe there are rich Asian men who don't donate to "Rails Girls Summer of Code", but who might consider donating to a similar program for Asian people? I don't know.
> There's absolutely no need to try to empower one group while lowering another one.
Definitely. But as a disadvantaged person myself, it would benefit me and others like me more to promote the empowerment of an often-overlooked group of people.
Unfortunately as an Asian man, you'll get very little sympathy except from other Asian men, and we have very little social or political power to create these sorts of things - people don't really care, or will say you are privileged anyway.
Especially social inequalities: there isn't going to be an affirmative action program for dating, and no one's going to create a "make asian guys popular" program.
I've found that expecting the modern political system to take care of us is still a fantasy, so the best solution is to not complain too much, focus on your blessings, and work on improving yourself.
A side effect of the political system trying to prop up a given group is that those groups end up doing worse on a number of metrics. So, to your point about blessings: one of our blessings is that we aren't the targets of these kinds of initiatives.
Why don't you seek out or create a group for Asians and/or work towards raising awareness about the racial discrimination you've experienced?
I'm not highly-education and lived well below the poverty line for the majority of my life. If not for programs like this I would still be there.
Study after study has shown that different groups learn and interact in different ways. Programs like this can teach to those differences without treating them like a defect. For instance, women don't respond to competitive environments the same way men do. Women tend to shutdown while men push forward. I've taught unisex (although it was mostly male) and women only coding classes. Women tend to pair more and help each other. Men tend to work alone.
I'm an Asian woman and I've definitely experienced more sexism than racism.
That said, if it bothers you that there aren't more "Asians in Tech" programs, why don't you start one? No one is stopping you, except maybe the people who would complain about it being unfair to THEIR underserved minority groups.
They're not just needed, they're _massively_ successful. While I have some small issue with some of the branding, it gets people to show up.
I know someone who tried to get a 'new people programming' event started for six months, never got more than 4 or 5 people, and they were all men, even though he was trying to be woman-friendly. He then changed to make it a RailsGirls event, and he had 300 people apply for the 15 seats he was budgeting for...
Why are they needed? To counter genderism? If so, doesn't it seem self-defeating to try to outgrow our sexist prejudices by actively countering them?
If women have suffered discrimination in the software development community, we can all make an effort not to let it happen. But to create an institutionalized/organized effort towards countering prejudice is to strengthen it by latching on to it, rather than acknowledging it and letting it go.
EDIT: To clarify my point, I think we all need to be aware of not only genderism but unfounded prejudice in general, towards all human beings. An institution/organization or summer camp towards the equality of all seems to me a more equitable premise rather than a 'Girls-only' camp, which seems to be legitimate only because most of us are aware of the historical prejudices towards women.
I hear that there are preschools in Sweden where any gender specific language usage is expressedly prohibited (e.g. young children aren't told if they are boys or girls to prevent perpetuating gender stereotypes during their formative years)
Concerning gender equality: is there any lesson to be learned by the Sweden example?
It would help if there was some explicit explanation of why they think this is necessary.
Are women being discriminated against when the apply to the more general Summer Of Code events, or are they choosing not to apply because they are (or are worried about being) harassed or ostracized when they go to those events?
And if either of these are issues, it seems far healthier in the long term to address those problems rather than starting a girls first event.
Admissions aren't discriminatory, but summer camps of this sort are typically dominated by males. Being the only "different" person in a largely homogeneous group can cause all sorts of difficulties at that age.
Sense of community and belonging are as important, if not more important, than instruction.
FWIW, male-dominated summer camps are a problem for males and females alike. Many middle school boys don't like having the sorts of lunch time conversations that groups of middle school guys invariably gravitate toward.
If you have a way to solve the massive over-representation of males in summer programming camps, please share! Until such solutions exist, camps such as this one are undeniably crucial.
Be careful who you donate to. Sometimes in the future you might become the CEO of Mozilla and this kind of sexism might be considered unacceptable enough to spark a boycott campaign.
Be careful about what topics you make political jokes about. Don't forget that your rights end where my feelings begin, especially regarding social issues.
I'm not quoting anybody. My comment is a spin on the parent's comment on Mozilla.
The joke is that a foundation that claims to have "freedom of speech" as one of its core values is having its CEO step down because 5 years ago he expressed an opinion that hurts lots of peoples feelings.
How is a (silly and misguided, IMHO) set of perks for some people at all related to a campaign to deny basic rights to some other people because you think they're icky? Live and let live, yo!
So you're saying it's ok to give "perks" based on gender, but not to detract based on gender?
Those seem like different ways of saying the same thing. Discriminating in favor of one group is more or less isometric to discriminating against the other group.
A code camp that was boys-only would get torn apart on hacker news, even though it follows your definition of a "set of perks for some people".
This is addressed to the copious negative top-level comments.
As someone with first-hand experience attending a computer summer camp, I think this is important.
I attended a computer summer camp as a kid. It was all male and had an very awful culture (e.g. lunch conversations were pretty pubescent and gaming was really important). The culture seriously turned me off, to the point that I stopped programming entirely and got into math for a while afterwards. Oh, and I'm male...
If a girl joined any random summer camp 12 years ago, she would be the only girl in the group. This may have changed since then, but I'm sure not by much.
Sense of belonging and community is important, and it's not unreasonable to suspect that a male-dominated summer camp would not provide a girl with that sense of community. Especially at that age.
A more ideal solution might be increasing the number of girls interested in computer science so that this simply is not a problem. Unfortunately, it's unrealistic to assume that will happen over night. In the mean time, camps such as this might decrease the social barriers to entry for girls interested in CS. That's a Good Thing.
I absolutely agree with this. I talked with a major contributor to http://www.blackgirlscode.com/ and he helped me understand that it's not about keeping men back or fighting sexism with sexism, it's about providing opportunities where people thought they previously didn't exist. STEM and the computer industry are heavily dominated by men (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7523172), and the role models to introduce women into these fields just aren't there (although it is getting better).
Programs like this are there to show that an industry isn't specifically for only men or women, and allow girls to make the choice to code, even if they previously hadn't thought of it as an option.
I have experience with summer camps for Mathematics (as a participant) for kids from 10-18. I'm not sure how they manage to achieve it, but it was probably 55%/45% male/female. I think that half the camp elders being female helped a lot, as well as wise promotion and word of mouth after 20 successful years.
I feel that the camps being mixed added a ton to the experience. I can't begin to describe all the benefits, but for me as a boy, the camps first showed me that both genders can be interested in nerdy stuff, and that such interests are actually fine and quite normal.
However, if it would have been 95% boys, I think it would have been better to split them by gender. Especially among children it's hard to be the only girl in a group of only boys. Then, once the girl group starts to grow by intelligent promotion and word of mouth, perhaps you can merge the camps once the split is more favorable.
Thanks for sharing! I never had the opportunity to attend such a camp, and I'm glad to hear mathematics camps are well balanced.
I agree that the merging strategy makes a lot sense, esp. for the reasons you give in the second paragraph. Hopefully the critical mass of girls interested in CS will exist soon.
The copious comments stem from the negativity toward men - male culture and gaming is seen as a bad thing and toxic, but female groups. Why are predominately or all male groups not celebrated for bringing community to young boys?
Too bad we don't know anything about the culture of an all girls summercamp. I'm sure it would be all love and unicorns.
Perhaps there can be different sorts of summer camps? Some boys might like gaming and actually go through puberty. Other boys might be into other things. Why shouldn't they all have a perfect summer camp? Likewise for girls...
Yes! Everyone should have the opportunity to learn in an environment where they feel empowered and understood. How does this project do anything except further the goal?
The GP's comment was not saying that an all-girls camp would be sunshine and unicorns. It was saying that one particular environment made them feel small and disempowered as a girl and that an experience like Girls Who Code would appeal to them for that reason.
But the unspoken claim is that all events with a lot of men are unbearable for women (and decent people).
Sure if some girl wants to go to girls only camp, whatever. Although it seems a bit unfair that the same wouldn't be granted for boys.
I'm waiting how this plays out in 10 years. Either it'll fail because a majority of women simply don't want to code. Or there will be women-only companies desperate to hire men. There would be a slight difference in the women only companies likely having started out as women only deliberately, so I think working as the only man for an all women company might be even more unattractive than the opposite thing.
The 20th century is replete with examples of women entering traditionally male professional roles. None of these industries is hostile toward men; in fact, often the opposite. The scenario you suggest as plausible is in fact quite unprecedented.
What makes Computer Science so different from all these other fields and professions?
I'd say most industries are as hostile to men as they are to women. Books about the sickness of organizations are plentiful.
I don't understand your question about "what is different about computer science".
I tell you what is different: you don't have to crawl in the mud for computer science, and there are a couple of overblown stories about IT billionaires having parties in fancy offices. There are fewer stories about cubicles in the cellar.
Edit: were you referring to the all-women IT company? They do exist now. And there are plenty of organizations organizing women only IT events for women. Like RailsGirls. So if they are successful, why wouldn't they lead to more women only IT companies?
> were you referring to the all-women IT company? They do exist now. And there are plenty of organizations organizing women only IT events for women.
I was referring the conclusion that these events/organizations significantly harm men.
> So if they are successful, why wouldn't they lead to more women only IT companies?
Because the whole of 20th century labor history, which is replete with counter-examples. Women supporting other women in male-dominated professions, as a matter of observable fact, does not generally lead to discrimination against men in the work place.
Where there many "women only" initiatives for male-dominated professions? "Girl Engineers" or what?
The discrimination is already happening with the women only events. Why should it suddenly stop afterwards? Especially since these are women who seem to be uncomfortable around men. Why should they then hire men into their IT company?
I'm not minimizing anything. The OP was a man who happened to not be into gaming and puberty. My point was that boys who are in puberty and like gaming should nevertheless get their summer camps.
I'm not interested in football. I guess that makes all male dominated professions hostile to me, because men like to talk about football. It's so unfair.
1. The popup to donate shows up on a page where the URL is not https. This looks wrong, but closer inspection shows that it is an iframe that is in fact properly secured. But had I not known how to find that out (right-click, show page info), I would not enter my credit card info on a non-https site.
2. My card was declined, the first time in my life that that has ever happened. I triple-checked the information I entered and it is valid. Could be my fault, but given I've never had a problem before, perhaps an issue with the site?
Based on those two things, this project might be missing out on some amount of donations (at least mine, since I don't have another card to try). Hopefully that's fixable.
Personally, I think that's a web UI design flaw where the page loads non https but a credit-card form has a POST as https. Also, I'm kinda concerned that vice-versa could happen.
I wish browsers had a feature to detect what appears to be a form asking for sensitive info and let me know if the POST will happen over https or not. Basically, stop me from proceeding anytime a form is about to submit containing a field of 16 digits with some kind of modal warning dialog.
I went through the same thing. Your card was declined because these donations are being routed through the Travis Foundation's Stripe account which is now based in Germany. As an international org based in Germany your bank/cc flagged the transaction as potentially fraudulent.
I don't think Rails Girls/Travis can do much about this, you need to call your bank to get them to allow the transaction.
Requiring people to call their bank is a much higher barrier than it should be, though? I buy stuff online all the time and things just work. I hope Rails Girls can use another payment processing solution.
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[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 236 ms ] threadThe alternative is obvious -- have qualified girls apply to an appropriately named rails summer of code, and if they're rejected based on their gender, take the responsible parties to court. This is how gender equality comes into being -- not by creating a set-aside program conspicuous only for its overt sexism.
The underlying message of this program is that as programmers, girls are different than boys. This is both false and absurd -- mathematics, logic and computer science have no gender.
Fighting sexism with more sexism is not the answer.
I'm currently using a 3 year old machine, granted it's still pretty fast for my needs, but if I saw a program that was only for girls, and there weren't any alternative for boys (at the age group this is targeted at) I would have been quite disappointed.
I don't bear any ill-will towards this program, but I feel that kids are mostly prejudice free, and this makes them see some form of gender discrimination.
What is next, you'll ask for funding for programs targeted at girls that are only hispanic or indian or black?
Already exists: http://www.blackgirlscode.com/
As a disclaimer, I have no opinion on them as I am not really informed about their activities.
How on earth did you draw this conclusion from a post in which I make exactly the opposite point? My point was that programs that single out groups, that sequester, are counterproductive. Read it again.
On re-reading your post, I now think you attached it to the wrong comment. That's the only rational explanation.
This is from experience. I'm a woman who codes, and I mostly go to the women who code meetups because I can learn in a safe space that I personally enjoy.
The first time I went to a normal Rails meetup - with majority guys - there were two guys having a pissing contest about whether ERB is better than HAML, and then another guy was apologizing to me for the two guys being "so technical".
In meetups where there are only women, we get to actually learn and support each other, and it's great. I want the same environment for my sister to learn in.
Well, wouldn't having 15-16 year old girls around be distracting and counterproductive for boys? Also, how do those poor kids manage to learn anything in schools? It must be super difficult for them, having all those other kids of the opposite gender around. Maybe we should bring back the whole separate schools for boys and girls thing.
All completely reasonable points, and your choices also seem reasonable. But let me ask when, if ever, your sister will be able to leave that sequestered environment and enter the real world. Isn't it our goal to take down these barriers and achieve gender equality?
Gender equality doesn't mean two colonies, one of men and another of women. It means one society composed of men and women. Or am I wrong about that?
> I mostly go to the women who code meetups because I can learn in a safe space that I personally enjoy.
Yes, understood. That's why men go to meetings where only men are present -- same reasoning, same outcome.
> In meetups where there are only women, we get to actually learn and support each other, and it's great. I want the same environment for my sister to learn in.
I know a secret that I'm going to reveal to you -- that works for men too. But it has the unfortunate side effect of making men intolerant of the presence of women. Do you want that outcome for women?
I ask this in all sincerity, without judgment or rancor -- do you want a society in which men and women pay attention only to their own instincts and needs, and make no effort to construct a society composed of both men and women?
Keep in mind this will be her first experience actually programming. I created an iOS app with her - she drew everything an did the voice overs - but hasn't programmed at all.
I want her to get so excited about coding and making something, that she sticks with it. If she's scared away by her first experience, as many women are, there will continue to be a pretty big inequality in tech.
That's why programs like these are so important. I stick with it because I LOVE what I do now and have the confidence and knowledge to stand up to my coworkers, etc - but it took a lot to get to this point. Having safe support in the early stages is critical.
> I know a secret that I'm going to reveal to you -- that works for men too. But it has the unfortunate side effect of making men intolerant of the presence of women. Do you want that outcome for women?
I work with men all day. I also go to meetups where there are men - going to one tonight b/c there is a great speaker and I will not miss out on the opportunity only because there are men at the meetup. Also going to a tech conference later this month, where there will be men.
However, going to these events takes a lot of effort and work for me - I have to deal with people not taking me seriously, guys potentially hitting on me, having to prove myself, etc. Would be great if guys made some effort too, but most don't. I can only tolerate so much of it.
That said, again, if there is a safe space for women to learn together and discuss issues they're facing, they're more likely to stay in the industry, which makes a more equal society of women and men. And as more women work with men in tech as programmers, the more men learn to tolerate and work with women. As more women are supported by other women, we will venture out and go to the normal meetups, but the women who code meetups are a great safe environment to get started with and keep as a support network throughout our careers.
I say this because everyone should have a "safe and welcoming environment" and it is the failure of that meetup to provide that for everyone. They should look at ways they can make the meetup more friendly for all people whether men/women, beginner/expert etc.
Maybe a man attending the same night would have the same experience and feelings, and he doesn't have the option to attend the only women meetups.
No, the underlying message is that society treats women and men differently, and thus comparisons like what you just did (changing "girls" for "boys") do not work. You may not believe that, but that's another problem. If I create a program to help poor people become programmers, am I really saying that rich people are different than poor people? And do you think I can use "low income" and "high income" interchangeably on those programs?
I'm not really familiar with what they actually do, however, and whether they have any notable efficacy.
As a result, in an average tech workplace (which is a combination of technical and social factors), I think Asian people are at just as much, if not more at a disadvantage than women.
I don't want to feel animosity, or even ambivalence towards such programs, but given the reason above, it is a bit difficult for me not to. Any thoughts/solutions that the HN crowd might have about this? By nature, I'm not particularly inclined towards $SOCIETAL_GROUP-specific programs, but if that is the solution people think is useful, I'd be willing to advocate for it in the future, and focus towards soliciting donations, etc. for that instead.
[edit: Downvoters, I'm asking for opinions or solutions. Why not offer one in addition to your downvote?]
However, I also benefit from being an Asian male software developer. Whenever I meet new people in business, I am automatically assumed to be smart which has proven highly profitable. Finding work is never an issue and I make quite a comfortable living because people with money assume I am good at what I do - I have less to prove than a programmer who is say, Latino or perhaps female.
My solution? If you can't beat em, join em. Why don't you volunteer to teach at a girls code school? Might meet some cute female instructors who also like programming - pretty rare. Use your strengths in whatever way you can.
As a post-script to the "Jap" guy, a few weeks later he got fired from his job and has been out of work since. He is a high school educated white male in his late 20s. We all have our challenges and if being white also included being stupid, ignorant and money-less like this guy, I'll take Asian.
I am white. I get called 'brit' or 'pom' or 'white guy' and so on all the time by colleagues of various ethnic or cultural backgrounds. I take it as friendly jibing unless I can see there is clear intention to upset.
edit: Downvotes? Yikes. Like most people, I'd prefer some constructive replies instead of silent detractors, but it is what it is.
More importantly, I'm not asking you to understand. It's not your responsibility and I don't blame you for any of this. It's just something that Asian males have to learn to deal with. We just have to man up and deal with it.
Yes, some people might think I'm more intelligent based on my race. On the other hand, some people may think I'm not qualified for leadership or public facing positions because of male Asian stereotypes.
So while one powerful group is pushing for representation of women in engineering, another is fighting for broader social equity for Asians - the latter is often seen as less legitimate when applied to Asian men specifically (low social status, lower marriage/dating prospects), or which are huger racial things that may never be fixed anytime soon in a US society while Asians remain a tiny minority, because those are the kinds of inequalities that people tolerate, while under representation of women in engineering is widely recognized and addressed as a bad thing.
I was trying to say that Asian people are also at a disadvantage, and that we should try to help them as well. I have seen several "X for Women in Tech" initiatives, and absolutely none for, say, "Asian Men in Tech".
> You are also implying that we should help women less and Asian people more
That implication may seem true if you think of "resources for helping" as a finite amount. I was just saying that we should help Asian people more. This could actually be a good thing. Maybe there are rich Asian men who don't donate to "Rails Girls Summer of Code", but who might consider donating to a similar program for Asian people? I don't know.
> There's absolutely no need to try to empower one group while lowering another one.
Definitely. But as a disadvantaged person myself, it would benefit me and others like me more to promote the empowerment of an often-overlooked group of people.
Especially social inequalities: there isn't going to be an affirmative action program for dating, and no one's going to create a "make asian guys popular" program.
I've found that expecting the modern political system to take care of us is still a fantasy, so the best solution is to not complain too much, focus on your blessings, and work on improving yourself.
A side effect of the political system trying to prop up a given group is that those groups end up doing worse on a number of metrics. So, to your point about blessings: one of our blessings is that we aren't the targets of these kinds of initiatives.
I'm not highly-education and lived well below the poverty line for the majority of my life. If not for programs like this I would still be there.
Study after study has shown that different groups learn and interact in different ways. Programs like this can teach to those differences without treating them like a defect. For instance, women don't respond to competitive environments the same way men do. Women tend to shutdown while men push forward. I've taught unisex (although it was mostly male) and women only coding classes. Women tend to pair more and help each other. Men tend to work alone.
That said, if it bothers you that there aren't more "Asians in Tech" programs, why don't you start one? No one is stopping you, except maybe the people who would complain about it being unfair to THEIR underserved minority groups.
I know someone who tried to get a 'new people programming' event started for six months, never got more than 4 or 5 people, and they were all men, even though he was trying to be woman-friendly. He then changed to make it a RailsGirls event, and he had 300 people apply for the 15 seats he was budgeting for...
If women have suffered discrimination in the software development community, we can all make an effort not to let it happen. But to create an institutionalized/organized effort towards countering prejudice is to strengthen it by latching on to it, rather than acknowledging it and letting it go.
EDIT: To clarify my point, I think we all need to be aware of not only genderism but unfounded prejudice in general, towards all human beings. An institution/organization or summer camp towards the equality of all seems to me a more equitable premise rather than a 'Girls-only' camp, which seems to be legitimate only because most of us are aware of the historical prejudices towards women.
Concerning gender equality: is there any lesson to be learned by the Sweden example?
NYTimes Article on Swedish Pre-schools:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/14/world/europe/swedish-schoo...
Are women being discriminated against when the apply to the more general Summer Of Code events, or are they choosing not to apply because they are (or are worried about being) harassed or ostracized when they go to those events?
And if either of these are issues, it seems far healthier in the long term to address those problems rather than starting a girls first event.
Admissions aren't discriminatory, but summer camps of this sort are typically dominated by males. Being the only "different" person in a largely homogeneous group can cause all sorts of difficulties at that age.
Sense of community and belonging are as important, if not more important, than instruction.
FWIW, male-dominated summer camps are a problem for males and females alike. Many middle school boys don't like having the sorts of lunch time conversations that groups of middle school guys invariably gravitate toward.
If you have a way to solve the massive over-representation of males in summer programming camps, please share! Until such solutions exist, camps such as this one are undeniably crucial.
I think the quote is that "your rights end at the tip of my nose".
No-one's rights should be infringed because someone is merely displeased or offended.
The joke is that a foundation that claims to have "freedom of speech" as one of its core values is having its CEO step down because 5 years ago he expressed an opinion that hurts lots of peoples feelings.
Hence, "your rights end where my feelings begin"
Those seem like different ways of saying the same thing. Discriminating in favor of one group is more or less isometric to discriminating against the other group.
A code camp that was boys-only would get torn apart on hacker news, even though it follows your definition of a "set of perks for some people".
As someone with first-hand experience attending a computer summer camp, I think this is important.
I attended a computer summer camp as a kid. It was all male and had an very awful culture (e.g. lunch conversations were pretty pubescent and gaming was really important). The culture seriously turned me off, to the point that I stopped programming entirely and got into math for a while afterwards. Oh, and I'm male...
If a girl joined any random summer camp 12 years ago, she would be the only girl in the group. This may have changed since then, but I'm sure not by much.
Sense of belonging and community is important, and it's not unreasonable to suspect that a male-dominated summer camp would not provide a girl with that sense of community. Especially at that age.
A more ideal solution might be increasing the number of girls interested in computer science so that this simply is not a problem. Unfortunately, it's unrealistic to assume that will happen over night. In the mean time, camps such as this might decrease the social barriers to entry for girls interested in CS. That's a Good Thing.
Programs like this are there to show that an industry isn't specifically for only men or women, and allow girls to make the choice to code, even if they previously hadn't thought of it as an option.
I feel that the camps being mixed added a ton to the experience. I can't begin to describe all the benefits, but for me as a boy, the camps first showed me that both genders can be interested in nerdy stuff, and that such interests are actually fine and quite normal.
However, if it would have been 95% boys, I think it would have been better to split them by gender. Especially among children it's hard to be the only girl in a group of only boys. Then, once the girl group starts to grow by intelligent promotion and word of mouth, perhaps you can merge the camps once the split is more favorable.
I agree that the merging strategy makes a lot sense, esp. for the reasons you give in the second paragraph. Hopefully the critical mass of girls interested in CS will exist soon.
Perhaps there can be different sorts of summer camps? Some boys might like gaming and actually go through puberty. Other boys might be into other things. Why shouldn't they all have a perfect summer camp? Likewise for girls...
The GP's comment was not saying that an all-girls camp would be sunshine and unicorns. It was saying that one particular environment made them feel small and disempowered as a girl and that an experience like Girls Who Code would appeal to them for that reason.
Sure if some girl wants to go to girls only camp, whatever. Although it seems a bit unfair that the same wouldn't be granted for boys.
I'm waiting how this plays out in 10 years. Either it'll fail because a majority of women simply don't want to code. Or there will be women-only companies desperate to hire men. There would be a slight difference in the women only companies likely having started out as women only deliberately, so I think working as the only man for an all women company might be even more unattractive than the opposite thing.
What makes Computer Science so different from all these other fields and professions?
I don't understand your question about "what is different about computer science".
I tell you what is different: you don't have to crawl in the mud for computer science, and there are a couple of overblown stories about IT billionaires having parties in fancy offices. There are fewer stories about cubicles in the cellar.
Edit: were you referring to the all-women IT company? They do exist now. And there are plenty of organizations organizing women only IT events for women. Like RailsGirls. So if they are successful, why wouldn't they lead to more women only IT companies?
I was referring the conclusion that these events/organizations significantly harm men.
> So if they are successful, why wouldn't they lead to more women only IT companies?
Because the whole of 20th century labor history, which is replete with counter-examples. Women supporting other women in male-dominated professions, as a matter of observable fact, does not generally lead to discrimination against men in the work place.
The discrimination is already happening with the women only events. Why should it suddenly stop afterwards? Especially since these are women who seem to be uncomfortable around men. Why should they then hire men into their IT company?
How sensitive would you say you are to what women find bearable? How do you know?
I'm not interested in football. I guess that makes all male dominated professions hostile to me, because men like to talk about football. It's so unfair.
1. The popup to donate shows up on a page where the URL is not https. This looks wrong, but closer inspection shows that it is an iframe that is in fact properly secured. But had I not known how to find that out (right-click, show page info), I would not enter my credit card info on a non-https site.
2. My card was declined, the first time in my life that that has ever happened. I triple-checked the information I entered and it is valid. Could be my fault, but given I've never had a problem before, perhaps an issue with the site?
Based on those two things, this project might be missing out on some amount of donations (at least mine, since I don't have another card to try). Hopefully that's fixable.
I wish browsers had a feature to detect what appears to be a form asking for sensitive info and let me know if the POST will happen over https or not. Basically, stop me from proceeding anytime a form is about to submit containing a field of 16 digits with some kind of modal warning dialog.
I went through the same thing. Your card was declined because these donations are being routed through the Travis Foundation's Stripe account which is now based in Germany. As an international org based in Germany your bank/cc flagged the transaction as potentially fraudulent.
I don't think Rails Girls/Travis can do much about this, you need to call your bank to get them to allow the transaction.