HN: I was fired today, is this even legal?
I've been unemployed for a while and recently got an $8 an hour job through Kelly services. The name of the company is called Juno Pacific in Santa Cruz. I did excellent work, got along with everyone and had nothing but praise from my immediate supervisor. She jokingly said 'good job ,you deserve a raise' and other such comments regularly. When I was quizzed at the little testing stations I worked at I did fine. It was easy rote work.
We had a meeting yesterday where the upper management ( who I had never met ) called in all the workers in my shift and told us about the productivity incentive program.
The productivity incentive program is this: If you give the company any ideas that make them more money you are rewarded with a pizza party and you get to spin a cardboard cut out wheel that has 'big prizes' like a $25 amazon gift certificate. The grand prize of the cardboard cut out wheel is an ipad.
The manager mentioned one example of a single employee that thought up an idea that saved them $5000 a month. Presumably this person was rewarded with a pizza party and got to spin the cardboard cut out wheel and claim their prize.
The manager said that he would like to see each employee come up with at least 3 ideas.
I raised my hand and said that "if anyone here can make the company an additional $5000 a month you should treat them as a consultant and simply write them a check for $1000". I also said that the incentive program as is is a bit "maddening" and silly. I also mentioned that I've seen this kind of thing before at companies while implying that its simply not fair. After the meeting was over a few other employees expressed gratitude because its what they were thinking as well.
Today I was fired without notice. The person that was given the responsibility to notify me didn't give any reason except that my 'outburst was inexcusable' and that the decision came from upper management.
106 comments
[ 2.5 ms ] story [ 159 ms ] threadIf the staffing agency knew of the wrongful reason, and because of it (or because of the other company's decision to end your assignment with knowledge of it) they then declined to assign you other work, you might have a case for wrongful termination case against them (by way of constructive dismissal), but there would seem to be a number of things you'd have to prove there that you wouldn't in a direct employment wrongful termination case.
IANAL, but my understanding is that judges pretty quickly look past what things are labelled. If the temp was able to quickly roll into another gig (or the temp agency otherwise kept paying them), that's one thing. But I'd still be very surprised if legal cleared "We don't have need for your services any longer because you're black. We're contacting your temp agency for a white replacement."
Edit: BTW, he links to his resume in his profile if anyone wants to do a good deed: http://helpknow.com/resume.pdf
I think the latter loss of dignity is greater than the former.
Defending dignity at 'all costs' makes it sound like you've never had to make a hard decision in your life. This is a case where the right move is to keep your head down, do the bare minimum, work on your portfolio on the side and bolt for a better job as soon as you can.
You can choose to put your own interests first by sticking around and not saying anything or those of your fellow workers by taking a stand. It's a question of values.
I agree with your spirit here, but solving this problem requires playing the long game.
It sucks that companies can get away with all this but they have been that way for long. I am sincerely hoping you make it to a better job where they are 1.ethical and 2.don't want to lose you and you look back at this and shrug.
Could there be more tact and humor in expressing your mind, perhaps but again you did the right thing and trust me for a person like you there will be opportunities.
Well, isn't that what you tried to do, actually? After all, you did call them out in a public forum, and you're repeating your chosen themes here. Granted, they're bona fide idiots -- no argument there. But bona fide idiots are everywhere. So you smile, shrug, and go back to the $8/hr.-job that you need, or at least don't want to lose.
It sounds a little like you feel that you're entitled to something in some way. In theory, perhaps you are, but in reality the majority of the world gets bitch-slapped on a daily basis in one way or another, even (and sometimes especially) those you're sure are on top of it all. On one hand, you need that $8/hr., enough so that if you're fired, it's a real problem. You want to know if it's even legal! On the other hand, you're wanting to stand up for the dignity of your fellow workers against a management that, plainly from their behavior, could give a reverse flying shit. And they had the audacity to let you go?! Dude, seriously? Did you expect them to think about your point carefully, look at each other with chagrin, and then thank you for elevating the quality of the discourse?
If you need money, make money. Improve your situation and protect your baseline. That's the way you accumulate power. If you don't care about power (or security) and you just want to fight for what's right, then that's a valid choice and good for you, do that. But then expect what goes along with that.
2. CA is an at-will employment state. You can be terminated for cause, no cause or just cause.
It will be interesting to see whether the people rallying to Eich's free speech rights despite his homophobia will be similarly impassioned about rallying to yours despite your rejection of serfdom.
I don't know about CA specifically, but Departments of Labor usually LOVE aggressively defending employees' rights. Something I don't see much on HN, but I saw a LOT when I worked in HR.
In my experience this is only true if it is easily proven that you were fired because of blatant racism or sexism. If it isn't either of those two reasons or it is harder to prove, nothing will happen.
To the OP, yes it seems perfectly legal, you can be fired at any time for any reason that isn't one of a handful of protected reasons (sex, religion, race etc.). You can be fired for wearing blue that day if they so feel like it. It's just not usually so petty because it can be a little bit of a cost replacing a person.
Just reading the small amount you've written about the situation, I can tell you that you simply write English at a greater than $8/hour level. Probably much greater.
I'm continually shocked at how aggressively companies court mediocrity and failure. They probably think they are extremely progressive even for listening to employees in the first place, double plus points for giving token rewards. Unless, of course, that the employee input happens to be about how ridiculous and juvenile the whole exercise is.
It is very hard to find good ways to turn criticism into something positive and productive, though. This is all about how to put things and about the right or wrong moment. Not easy but worth trying.
Simple rule is business is to pay $10/per $100 dollars of new revenues. This is Amazon referral fee, for example. But getting paid $10/ per 1,000 is off by an <order of magnitude> and the manager is lacking judgement. This is opportunistic and potentially exploitative.
Highly doubtful a private 1-on-1 would change the stripes, but maybe who knows.
My point is, if a company sets a policy of pizza party and spin the wheel as a reward, that's the reward. Don't complain after the fact that it's not fair. You didn't have to submit the idea, you could have gone about your business and never said anything. Also, what if 99% of the idea's only save the company $20 or less? You really think they are going to start writing $2 cheques? Or is that even going to motivate people to submit ideas. Pizza parties not only reward the employee, they provide a morale booster.
Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium.
Beyond that, it's simply a bad idea for corporate leaders to go out of their way to make their wage-slaves feel exploited through juvenile "prizes" and "games". A genuine smile and a pat on the back can make someone feel valued, even if they're really being robbed blind.
Lol, no.
>Why do people think they should get a cut of the savings? If you work for the company
Because they are directly responsible for the savings.
Why should a lawyer get a cut of her billable hours? Because she's directly responsible for doing the work over those hours. Same concept.
>you should want to see it succeed for the sake of your own future with the company
Why? Loyalty isn't a given. If a company is paying you $8/hr and offering you Pizza as an incentive to do well, they don't value you and won't be loyal to you. Being loyal to them would be accepting exploitation, not being honorable. There is no future in jobs like this.
Further, you are working to provide for yourself. Under no circumstances should you put the needs of a massive company ahead of your own well-being. It's not like you're accepting an opportunity cost for a few years, as is the case when starting up your own company. You're a wage slave at $8 an hour. If the company paying you that can't provide for you, fuck them -- go sell your labor elsewhere, you owe them nothing.
>But don't be greedy and expect more.
It isn't greedy to expect reasonable compensation for quantifiable value you directly provide to a company.
There are many very educated people who write English (and other languages) well struggling for $8/hour jobs. This state of affairs will be coming to the tech industry, too. We're not special, we're just behind the curve because tech was "uncool" for so long.
Some companies have idea boxes that don't get used. I don't see the harm in making a small contest out of it.
It sounds like the OP is dissatisfied with his compensation and lost some control and lashed out in a meeting. If the OP was my temp worker I would probably fire him too. Juno Pacific is probably paying the agency 2-3x which might be upwards of $16-$24/hr. Often, it's the temp agency that is taking more than a reasonable cut.
The idea of writing a check for a portion of the improvement is more ridiculous and can quickly become complex. Is that paid for eternity? How are ideas with softer benefits calculated?
edit I would also like to add that many of the people in the room felt the way I did thus it wasn't just my opinion. I was simply the only one that said anything. In that regard I kind of did the manager a favor allowing him to possibly adjust his approach.
There's little you can do, and it sounds like it was a shitty job. Anything you'd recover in a lawsuit (and winning one against them is a long-shot) is going to be based on the income lost from that job, and wouldn't be worth it. If you were a salaried employee, you might be able to push for a severance (maybe a month?) on account of the circumstances your departure making them look bad, giving them an incentive to settle. As a temporary hourly worker, I don't think you have that credibility, and I think they can fire you pretty much at will: your services aren't needed. A termination suit would be unlikely to win you anything, and the reputation effect would cancel out what you're likely to win.
If Juno Pacific harmed your reputation at Kelly Services, you might have a claim of tortious interference. But, unless otherwise specified, JP has the right to cut your hours to zero, which means terminating you.
It's going to be a he-said/she-said battle, but the truth is this: you made the executives look cheap and stupid (because they are) and they canned you as a "troublemaker". It's a tough call what is legal in dealing with "troublemakers". Attempting to unionize (which is not really what you tried to do) is protected and not fireable. Making executives look bad (which you did) is "insubordination" and fireable. Where's the line between "a troublemaker" and "insubordination"? Judgment call, very subjective. Is it right, what happened to you? No, but that's how the system works right now.
Corporate survival protip: rabblerousing is rarely worth it. I know, from experience. If you don't care enough to start a union (and that's a ton of work) then you should just do your job and keep those sorts of opinions to yourself. Shitty companies are like Wrongness on the Internet. If you fight them all, you'll never get anything else done.
TL;DR: they probably didn't break the law, you almost certainly won't get anything even if they did, and your best course of action is just to get another (better) job.
Yeah it sounds unfair..tough its way things are.. work the system not have system work YOU!
While it sucks to be short on money, it really seems like you dodged a bullet and you're better off not working there. From what I can tell from your writing and your online presence, you are far above making $8/hr.
Suggestion to OP: post your resume on a few sites and get recruiters calling if you haven't. Maybe put your teaching job on the bottom and emphasize coding ability. There's no reason you shouldn't be getting a few interviews very quickly unless you only speak in Klingon irl.
His idea was that the company should fire someone who makes $60k a year and redistribute the workload.
I believe you did learn a valuable lesson in how to operate within a company, though. You will be faced scenarios like this many times in your career. It constitutes part of the politics of the workplace. Like most people, I went through a similar learning process. When you're younger, you tend to let your passions dictate more of your overt actions. As you get older, you see how the game is played and learn how to choose your battles. I know it sounds a bit cynical, and it probably is, but being around to fight another day (assuming that you believe that you're someone who can have a positive impact) makes it worth it.
http://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/protected-concerted-ac...
Yes, most employees have labor rights, even if they're not in a union. Check out:
http://www.nlrb.gov/resources/faq/nlrb
Who knows if it could help, but you might want to contact the NLRB.
http://www.nlrb.gov/what-we-do/investigate-charges
Mostly, though, I wish you luck finding a decent job. That company sounds awful.
I don't know if it's legal (in the US it probably is), but I hope and expect you will find something better.
[edit] Also, I'm sorry that you got fired like this, it sounds maddening and inhumane. Best of luck to you in finding something better.
Why, OP, are you not working as a developer?
Honest question, not trying to be negative or anything.
I've run into a frequent roadblock in that I always want to know all the elements of what I'm getting into. I'm finding that in MOST cases its not important at all, until you're architecting a new system. Leave that to senior level folks for now, just find a place you can fix or work on UI elements or clear bugs - theres no need to be so stressed about a programming job, just reach for a branch that you can grasp firmly.