The main issue I have is password that I don't use often at all. I usually can't remember them, or if I can, I cannot associate between password and website.
> The main issue I have is password that I don't use often at all. I usually can't remember them, or if I can, I cannot associate between password and website.
Yet another reason I love using a password manager[1]. Besides letting you have unique passwords for everything (which is a must), it solves the "What the heck was the password for XZY?" issue when you haven't logged into XYZ in 6 months.
People really should just use a password manager. Yes it's a pain some times (mainly using mobile) but that's just something you live with. The rest of the time though it's way better than trying to remember silly thing like "Capitalize the second letter of each word" or "Replace the last letter with a digit that denotes the number of words in the phrase"[2].
Long passwords are a solved problem and the solution is not reinventing the Caesar cipher, it's to have a single long diceware password and use a password manager for the rest.
Oh and enable two-factor auth everywhere that allows it and vote with your wallet to choose businesses that do. For example, if your bank doesn't support it, find a new bank.
What if there is some bug that resets your Keepass/Lastpass keys? Don't you worry about something catastrophic like that could happen? Because then you'd lose access to all websites, right? Or do you rely on the fact that if you lose them, you can recover say your main e-mail password through another e-mail, and then you can recover all the other passwords with your main e-mail?
I also like KeePassX but its major flaw is not being able to sync or merge databases. That has led me to consider using password-store[1]. Has anyone found a way to overcome the sync problem with KeePassX?
I store the keypass database in dropbox so that my phone and other computers can all access the same db.
if you're worried about the security of that you can even take it 1 step further and add a keyfile to your login requirements. you could just store the keyfile outside of dropbox on the devices.
That doesn't solve the merge problem. What happens when you edit a password on one computer and then another password on another computer before syncing?
Is there much difference between KeePass and KeePassX? I'm assuming the latter is a bit more cross-platform friendly?
I use the former, since I'm on Windows, and use VMs for any dev related work. KeePass seems to have a good system in place for synching versions. Using GDrive, if I edit my pass on one machine when I try to add a new password from a second machine I get prompted to either Sync the file first or just completely overwrite it. I've yet to encounter an issue where KeePass gets confused as to what's changed and end up losing passwords in the process.
Yes the lack of syncing is notably missing. That's kind of the tradeoff you get for not using a central service or listing the sites themselves in plaintext (see my note about pass below). I handle it by having a separate private repo for KeepassX and syncing the repo whenever it's updated. It's an opaque blob so there's no real history but it makes it easy to keep my desktop and laptop in sync. I don't modify it too often (seriously how often do you create new accounts?) so it doesn't feel like much of a pain but maybe I'm just set it in my ways.
Pass looks interesting though the convenient way of using it (plaintext name for each site) leaks information. If you're willing to give that up then it sounds like a good idea.
I remember reading some articles on hacker news that seemed to imply that this wasn't the best approach[1].
Possibly the modifications (not sure about the adding of capitals but maybe the number) might make this a solution that is more stable but I guarantee that as soon as some cracker (e.g. Yiannis Chrysanthou) reads this article they're gonna modify the methods given to take account of most of the simple versions of this technique (as in the ones published here).
The problem with this method is that the example phrase, "No one knocks off old Tony", yields 3,580,000 Google results. All attackers would have to do is apply a few simplistic substitutions on common phrases. Any phrase easily found online or in print doesn't make a good passphrase.
That is not very precise. Given a certain length (6 words in the example), how many "common phrases" (above the threshold in you example) exists?
How many "simplistic substitutions" exists?
I would say that the search space is not as small as you are suggesting, even though I agree that the transformation of the example is quite simple, allowing a dictionary attack.
There is a famous example of a technique that takes only the first letter from each word of the phrase.
edit: "Schneider scheme"
https://www.schneier.com/essay-246.html
" My advice is to take a sentence and turn it into a password. Something like "This little piggy went to market" might become "tlpWENT2m". That nine-character password won't be in anyone's dictionary. Of course, don't use this one, because I've written about it. Choose your own sentence -- something personal."
There is a famous example of a technique that takes only the first letter from each word of the phrase.
That is the problem - people trying to break passwords use the exact same techniques. Compiling a list of ten million famous phrases is not hard. Generating a hundred commonly used variants of them is also easy. And checking one billion hashed passwords - MD5, SHA1 or SHA256 for example - takes less than one second on a current GPU.
You'd be surprised at how quickly common phrases are compromised. According to [1], a 6 word phrase, "it was the best of times", albeit unmodified, was broken in 4 seconds. A less common phrase, "You stay classy San Diego", was never compromised. So there may be some security in a combination of common phrases and modifier patterns, but I would say it's not enough for highly sensitive accounts.
A memorable password is almost certainly not going to be unique, lines from a book or a movie are very likely to be in cracking dictionaries. Simple transformations adding underscores or numbers at the end are well known techniques.
I use a combination of a master password (12 chars, only known to me, not written down) and a seed to generate gibberish passwords for websites. In most cases, the seed is the service or website it's for ("netflix", "reddit.com"). So, in the case of "netflix" my app gave me "qnQTs0-QO-9osX-me4)M". The benefit being that the passwords aren't stored anywhere, and I can retrieve them by simply visiting my web app.
Interesting.. I hope the generator function is non reversible? I.e., if you know the password ("qnQTs0-QO-9osX-me4)M" in this case) and your policy, could you find the master password?
Yeah. I wrote the password-hash generator that SuperGenPass and most others credit as their inspiration, and I moved mine http://angel.net/~nic/passwd.current.html on to SHA-1 years ago.
Was thinking about this as an alternative to existing password managers. The advantage is as you say your passwords aren't stored anywhere, even in encrypted form, and can be retrieved as long as you remember the master key and algorithm, but the disadvantage is that you're essentially sharing a poorly-salted hash of your master password with every service you log in to. I'm going to go for a password manager for now, simply based on my perception that they're widely used by people who know more about security than I do.
What I have been doing for years is remember one single password which would meet the password requirements of most websites.
For e.g. &<asterisk>I87yuU
This is 8 characters long, has upper-case and lower-case letters, numbers and symbols (Also if you try typing on the keyboard, it is actually a pattern).
I can remember one such password. Now, I have a formula for any website or app for which requires me to create credentials. This formula will help me add website specific information to the password.
Say the website is news.ycombinator.com, I will use second and third letters of ycombinator which is 'co' and increment both by 1 to make them 'dp' and add this somewhere in the password, which makes it
&<asterisk>dpI87yuU
Now, obviously unless someone knows my encryption technique, even if they get to know password of one of my accounts, they can never know the others.
P.S. I feel I have gone too far to explain this. Please don't hack my Paypal.
I have used something like that before too, but it worries me.
If I found that password here I would immediately notice that the last two characters stand out, and see the pattern.
No_one_knocks_off_old_Ton6 is probably not a strong password. See for example this article [1] to get an idea of what can be broken - "qeadzcwrsfxv1331", "allineedislove" and "momof3g8kids" are among them.
Exceptionally long passwords can be difficult to type accurately. Probably most on HN are good typists, but still I find entering long passwords error-prone and frustrating.
Honestly, I just want to be rid of all these accounts. Either use an oAuth provider or give me some kind of fast e-mail based auth (like a "reset my password" thing without actually going through the process of resetting the password - just log me in when I click the link in my e-mail).
Part of the problem is that everything wants a strong password, but probably doesn't need it. Your bank, paypal, amazon... passwords should be strong ones, and probably unique. The passwords for random message boards you don't have a stake in might as well be password123 unless the account somehow links to something sensitive.
For me, part of securing important logins was sorting out the useless ones. That means your HN password probably shouldn't be N0_one_knocks_of_old_TonyHN either. Its just not worth it.
A password manager is the exception. I used to discount the idea of a password manager, but now carrying a smartphone all of the time, and a tablet most of the time a password manager makes more sense.
The comment is more targeted at people who are conscious of the issue of password reuse, but continue to use the same password, or slight variations on different services.
Similarly I don't think now is a good time to update passwords from password1! to passworkd3$.
I thought I will share my idea of unique, memorably passwords. I have a custom in-head hash function that I use to create a unique password for every single website where I have an account.
It works as follow, let's assume this is the domain we try to generate the password for:
www.example.com
The hash process:
1 - take first letter, move 2 in alphabet, capitalize - 2 places after e in alphabte is g ("abcdefg"), capitalize - G
2 - calculate number of words in domain, x2 = 7x2=14
3 - use standard salt - eg. tlpWENT2m
4 - take last letter - e
That leads to a password:
G14tlpWENT2me
Which is both easy to remember and allows you to have a unique hashed password for every website around.
Have fun with discovering your own hashing method.
Usually with cross-product applications you have some central domain that stands behind all of them. Just use that central domain. Eg. gmail, calendar, etc. are all behind google.
My current strategy is described below. I have been using it for about a year. It provides strong, unique, secure passwords with no memorization:
I use passwordchart.com (I am planning to create my own improved version at some point). It requires a generator phrase to create a "password chart", which is simply a mapping from each alphanumeric character to a different 1-3 character alphanumeric string. You then type in an easy to remember password, and it maps that to a far more secure password using the generated chart. I use the same chart (with a backup printed in my wallet), and apply the same methodology for every service I use to create my easy-to-remember password. I read the "how it works" page and it seems pretty secure to me. For all my password needs I only have to remember two things: the generator phrase and the method for making the easy to remember password. There is also little counter party risk (passwordchart.com doesn't know where the passwords are used, it would be hard to change the chart without me noticing, and I have a backup). I love not having to think hard when signing up for something new. In 5 seconds, I have an easy to fetch, secure, unique password for any service. The only real concern is over the shoulder snooping, but I just ask people not too look.
I have three base passwords that were randomly generated, one has lots of funky symbols, capitalization variety, numbers, etc. the other two are more simple. I've used these so long that I couldn't write them down, it's all muscle memory at this point.
For example: "h*0A$23d!W", "Eg4mRk4", "PdurMca"
Based on the site and their password requirements I pick one of the three base passwords. I then algorithmically modify the password based on the site's url. For example, the first and last letter of the main portion of the url. Thus, using the medium password for hackernews and gmail I end up with "yEg4mRk4r" and "gEg4mRk4l", respectively.
Great approach: base word and a URL modifier. Memorable and different for every site. I use the same. I even have a one page site (http://passmix.com) that teaches people the same approach.
The worst situation is where the site prevents submission of a password containing certain characters or limits password length, ruining any carefully chosen or algorithmically generated passwords.
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[ 4.8 ms ] story [ 113 ms ] threadRelevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/936/
Yet another reason I love using a password manager[1]. Besides letting you have unique passwords for everything (which is a must), it solves the "What the heck was the password for XZY?" issue when you haven't logged into XYZ in 6 months.
People really should just use a password manager. Yes it's a pain some times (mainly using mobile) but that's just something you live with. The rest of the time though it's way better than trying to remember silly thing like "Capitalize the second letter of each word" or "Replace the last letter with a digit that denotes the number of words in the phrase"[2].
Long passwords are a solved problem and the solution is not reinventing the Caesar cipher, it's to have a single long diceware password and use a password manager for the rest.
Oh and enable two-factor auth everywhere that allows it and vote with your wallet to choose businesses that do. For example, if your bank doesn't support it, find a new bank.
[1]: I suggest KeePassX: https://www.keepassx.org/
[2]: The article suggests things like this to make sure your password unique/dictionary proof. Forget that and just use the password manager directly.
* Dropbox (which lets me recover a deleted file up to 30 days) * Time Machine * BackBlaze * Monthly HDD clone
1. http://www.zx2c4.com/projects/password-store/
if you're worried about the security of that you can even take it 1 step further and add a keyfile to your login requirements. you could just store the keyfile outside of dropbox on the devices.
I use the former, since I'm on Windows, and use VMs for any dev related work. KeePass seems to have a good system in place for synching versions. Using GDrive, if I edit my pass on one machine when I try to add a new password from a second machine I get prompted to either Sync the file first or just completely overwrite it. I've yet to encounter an issue where KeePass gets confused as to what's changed and end up losing passwords in the process.
Pass looks interesting though the convenient way of using it (plaintext name for each site) leaks information. If you're willing to give that up then it sounds like a good idea.
[1] http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/08/thereisnofatebutwhat...
I would say that the search space is not as small as you are suggesting, even though I agree that the transformation of the example is quite simple, allowing a dictionary attack.
There is a famous example of a technique that takes only the first letter from each word of the phrase. edit: "Schneider scheme" https://www.schneier.com/essay-246.html
" My advice is to take a sentence and turn it into a password. Something like "This little piggy went to market" might become "tlpWENT2m". That nine-character password won't be in anyone's dictionary. Of course, don't use this one, because I've written about it. Choose your own sentence -- something personal."
That is the problem - people trying to break passwords use the exact same techniques. Compiling a list of ten million famous phrases is not hard. Generating a hundred commonly used variants of them is also easy. And checking one billion hashed passwords - MD5, SHA1 or SHA256 for example - takes less than one second on a current GPU.
1. http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ndsxi/a_test_of_br...
There are no shortcuts to creating genuinely high entropy passwords http://ss64.com/docs/security.html
For example: tree_eating_5surlap_on_bear (with "surlap" as the fictive word)
Somewhere you just (try to) draw a tree with a mouth, which is eating 5 question marks (representing the fictive word), standing on a bear.
However, I personally prefer mixed incoherent characters and numbers.
(I didn't just leak my Netflix password, btw ;)
(Personally, I use an homegrown script that runs outside the browser, but does something similar)
What I have been doing for years is remember one single password which would meet the password requirements of most websites.
For e.g. &<asterisk>I87yuU
This is 8 characters long, has upper-case and lower-case letters, numbers and symbols (Also if you try typing on the keyboard, it is actually a pattern).
I can remember one such password. Now, I have a formula for any website or app for which requires me to create credentials. This formula will help me add website specific information to the password.
Say the website is news.ycombinator.com, I will use second and third letters of ycombinator which is 'co' and increment both by 1 to make them 'dp' and add this somewhere in the password, which makes it
&<asterisk>dpI87yuU
Now, obviously unless someone knows my encryption technique, even if they get to know password of one of my accounts, they can never know the others.
P.S. I feel I have gone too far to explain this. Please don't hack my Paypal.
[1] https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/06/a_really_good...
use stanzas of it !without spaces! as a password.
It works as follow, let's assume this is the domain we try to generate the password for:
www.example.com
The hash process:
1 - take first letter, move 2 in alphabet, capitalize - 2 places after e in alphabte is g ("abcdefg"), capitalize - G
2 - calculate number of words in domain, x2 = 7x2=14
3 - use standard salt - eg. tlpWENT2m
4 - take last letter - e
That leads to a password: G14tlpWENT2me
Which is both easy to remember and allows you to have a unique hashed password for every website around.
Have fun with discovering your own hashing method.
I use passwordchart.com (I am planning to create my own improved version at some point). It requires a generator phrase to create a "password chart", which is simply a mapping from each alphanumeric character to a different 1-3 character alphanumeric string. You then type in an easy to remember password, and it maps that to a far more secure password using the generated chart. I use the same chart (with a backup printed in my wallet), and apply the same methodology for every service I use to create my easy-to-remember password. I read the "how it works" page and it seems pretty secure to me. For all my password needs I only have to remember two things: the generator phrase and the method for making the easy to remember password. There is also little counter party risk (passwordchart.com doesn't know where the passwords are used, it would be hard to change the chart without me noticing, and I have a backup). I love not having to think hard when signing up for something new. In 5 seconds, I have an easy to fetch, secure, unique password for any service. The only real concern is over the shoulder snooping, but I just ask people not too look.
Are you serious?
Based on the site and their password requirements I pick one of the three base passwords. I then algorithmically modify the password based on the site's url. For example, the first and last letter of the main portion of the url. Thus, using the medium password for hackernews and gmail I end up with "yEg4mRk4r" and "gEg4mRk4l", respectively.