I wonder if this is a culture thing. I read recently that when the Earth passed through Haley's Comet tail some years ago at about the same time it was discovered said tail contained cyanide (important for some scientific reason) there were quite a few suicides in India (and nearby regions) after media hype & panic about dying from poisoning. (EDIT: not referring to the suicide pact cult - that was Hale-Bopp)
It definitely is a culture thing because the mass panic isnt on the same level here (for example). I was in China the other week and there are spots of panic going on there too.
I think it's interesting how different cultures react to situations.
And what do you know about India? And cultures?
Your comment says you know nothing about India and are an "internet-expert". People sitting on the couch commenting on things without having the slightest idea.
China and India are very complex countries. They are countries only on the surface. There are hundreds of very different cultures in both. Do you know India has 1762 languages for example? Generalizing for them on the basis of what some ignorant fools believe about eclipses is being as ignorant as them.
When they haven't been to grade five. They are more likely to believe heresy and superstition. Most people would not even know what IS cyanide. Forget committing suicide for it. Some people think of the sun as god as have some religious rituals. Having said that, some of these rituals are old.
Remember the hysteria after 9/11? Every two days there used to orange alerts and green and god knows what alerts. Was that a culture thing too?
It isn't about being racist. If you even mention that it (your comment) has to do anything with racism It's about ignorance. And absolute ignorance. I see this way too often about eastern cultures on the internet. And it sure is upsetting and extremely irritating.
Certainly not ignorance; I've seen this affect first hand.
Mass panic in the US is incredibly different from what is seen in, say, India. It's fantastically interesting to see.
In the US it tends to be an "inactive panic" - so people will rant at length in bars and with friends etc. but end up taking no practical measures. The media heavily milk the situation but the healthcare profession tend to take a sensible laid back approach. In China (as I havent observed swine flu panic in India) its a much more "active panic". With remedies, face masks, precautions etc.
One of the guys who works for us and lives in India part of the year says mass movement is definitely part of the culture - and that panic (espeacially a global panic) can overlay onto that in interesting ways.
No ignorance: just interest.
> When they haven't been to grade five. They are more likely to believe heresy and superstition.
This perhaps was the problem then: the issue in the comet example was the media started the mass panic. But it was fairly global: and one of the biggest adverse reactions was in Asia.
Also please note you might have misconstrued "culture" - I see you talk about language and heritage, This is not the culture I refer to: but instead culture of the society there. And whilst India does have a many faceted and seriously complex mix of cultures and heritage it also has a clear national culture constructed from that. Sorry I didnt make that clear.
> I see this way too often about eastern cultures on the internet. And it sure is upsetting and extremely irritating.
(sorry to keep editing in further replies - im working at the same time). I find this highly offensive. Because I am definitely not ignorant of Eastern culture having spent some time there and having a deep interest in people, their interactions and their cultures. Please note I never said mass panic doesnt manifest in other cultures - I was simply commenting on one of the unique ways it does manifest in Asia.
with pleasure :) (bear in mind this is in 1910! Internet-ness is vague. Hunt down a book called "Risk: The Science and Politics of Fear" - that has better references, I dont have it to hand right now)
Well my dear friend this was not in India. But America. I remember watching about this hysteria on Carl Sagan's Cosmos. They had organized parties all over California as they thought they were going to die in some days as the Earth would be finished. And so it was better to have fun, make confessions etc. So there.
Coming back.
Well don't you think there's a difference between 1910 and now?
If you move the clock back a little. I think witches were pretty common in America and Europe (and related hysteria in towns and cities where they were "located") too don't you think? Or take the hysteria after the launch of the Sputnik. People thought they were just going to be bombed every second day.
And suicides weren't because it was said Halleys' tail had cyanide.
It was because of this: Comets have had a history IN ALL cultures to invoke some sort of fear. The only difference is that there are still a lot of people in Eastern countries who are backward. That's the only difference. In Europe not very long ago, comets could lead to executions. In places like India and China there are still a lot of people who hold on to such beliefs that the gods are angry.
And when I said about culture I meant that there are hundreds of cultures and such rituals are more prevalent in some of them than the others. So generalizing would be a sin.
About flu. I have not been to America since the outbreak of the flu so I can't say. I think in India and China some of it is necessary. A lot of people live in slums, and these are more likely to catch the virus once it has spread. Right now it is confined to people who came in touch with people coming from abroad.
If there isn't a certain degree of hysteria, there could be catastrophe when these poor people start getting it.
And I agree with your point about the media created frenzy, but I again believe that it's the same in all countries if you normalize.
> Well don't you think there's a difference between 1910 and now?
Yes. I never implied there wasnt! The effect of fear is still the same - and though the response has changed it is intriguing.
> The only difference is that there are still a lot of people in Eastern countries who are backward.
You've brought "backward" into this: im uncomfortable with that. Quite where I have suggested any form of backwardness (???) is a bit of a mystery - you've made an assumption I think (my fault: I was too objective in the original statement). I also call bull shit. There are lots of "backwards" people in the world irrespective of culture. No more or no less in Eastern countries. I cant believe you would suggest as much!
There actually is an important difference: but not the one you identified. It is to do with Stigma. In Europe especially there is a HUGE stigma about suicide. In 1910 it was even more so. There was almost certainly terror but the suicide rate was lower (if not almost non-existant) because doing so was bad.
I've noticed that stigma is less apparent (but not, note, non-existent) in some parts of Asia. This I would suggest identifes
> A lot of people live in slums, and these are more likely to catch the virus once it has spread.
You make a superb point and I agree. I havent seen "on the ground" but it would be interesting to see the reactions of those living in slums compared to, say, middle class business men. From previous observations I would suspect that a more "hysterical" reaction would be in the business persons with the others taking a more liberal view.
And note we are talking about panic: which is a bad thing in these circumstances. If it is, as you say, confined to those coming from abroad then mass panic seems overkill. Concern, planning and education is the better approach (but everywhere has fallen foul of that).
But here were on a discussion of panic and hysteria: where I was sort of talking more about how reactions to that manifest.
Here in the UK there has been NO reaction even in the slightest bit similar to that in India, China and lots of other regions (Italy again strikes me as one to join that group from what I have read). A lot of the media hype has met with cynicism. There was some hoarding of Tammiflu but that died off very quickly when people weren't really dying of it. Every few weeks now the media try and whip it all up again but it's not sticking.
I find these to polar reactions interesting: and it really does appear to me that culture is the overriding factor in all of it.
>>It was definitely global: and the material reference India and Rome specifically.
Sure it had to be. But it can not be in India due to news that the comet tail had cyanide AT ALL.
In India it would have to do more with religious and cultural implications of a comet than what it had (just like it would have had an impact in Europe a century earlier).
>> You've brought "backward" into this: im uncomfortable with that.
Well I should I have been clearer. What I meant was not related to your point. I meant that a lot of people would still think that eclipse has to do with gods than being a physical phenomenon. I think that ignorance. And this is more prevalent in people in India who are educationally backward.
>> I've noticed that stigma is less apparent
I found your paragraph interesting. And I do not agree. There could be a whole new thread on that.
>> And note we are talking about panic: which is a bad thing in these circumstances. If it is, as you say, confined to those coming from abroad then mass panic seems overkill. Concern, planning and education is the better approach (but everywhere has fallen foul of that)...
I agree with the rest of your comment after this point. And I think this is more studied.
People in India would not commit suicide due to knowing there is cyanide in comet's tail. But because maybe the gods are angry. ;-)
So I do think your comment was ignorant at face value.
Hysteria is common to all cultures. Certain hysteria would be more likely in western cultures and some more likely in eastern cultures. A bomb blast in LA would lead to hysteria in CA. A bomb blast in Peshawar would be normal. Life would be okay in another two days.
I don't think it's wise to say it's a culture thing.
"I see this way too often about eastern cultures on the internet. And it sure is upsetting and extremely irritating."
I am Indian too, but I don't find anything "offensive" about it.
If anyone misconstrues our culture, and we think it deserves correcting, let us correct them with facts, data and explanations and not necessarily assume ill will. God knows many Indians look on Americans as uncultured barbarians with a lot of money but no culture. They are wrong too, but being offended may not be a productive response.
At least on HN let us assume goodwill and argue based on facts vs perceived intention and "offensiveness". I am not disputing your right to be offended, just trying to propose an alternative. All cultures have ridiculous and glorious aspects. All people have incomplete perceptions.
As I said, I am Indian and live in India these days, but have lived in the USA. I maybe limited in my experience, but I've found most people in both countries to be decent people with no real notions of cultural superiority. This might be a good assumption to work off unless proved otherwise.
Just my 2 cents. Ok I am done. Thanks for listening. carry on :-)
Good comment plinkplonk. My first comment was made "at the spur". Not the guys fault. but reading too many articles on "Indian Culture" today. But I definitely thought it was a ridiculous comment. I agree with the edited versions.
@chromophore.
Sure. I wasn't really disputing your comment vs suggesting a different frame.
I have met my share of obnoxious people, both in the USA and in India, It is just that it is (in my opinion) very very hard to read the correct tone into written communication, specifically casual email/internet posts and a modicum of caution in this respect pays rich dividends.
>I think it's interesting how different cultures react to situations.
The UK of course took the much more sensible course of setting up a website and phone line where people could just be handed out one of the few wide spectrum oral antivirals like candies.
Good job that antibiotic resistant bacteria aren't already a problem, killing more people in hospitals each year than die on the roads.
We have turned a million people (none of whom will complete the course once they feel a bit better) into incubators for Tamiflu resistant viruses.
Indeed. It's interested me how the panic here manifested and now has died off. I wonder if we will see a resurgance at the end of the summer (seeing as it is India's flu season now and ours a little later it could turn out the same reaction).
Since the phone line / website things seem to have even gone quiet in the media which is intruiging.
And yes, it was a poor reaction; I could quite believe they actually did it. Though my doctor (when visiting him on an unrelated point) said there was no physical way they can test every valid complainant so they were handing it out anyway simply for safety)
I am in Bombay and there is indeed a scare of some kind going around. N95 masks are selling at 5 times the normal price. The media echo chamber is in scare mode. All my newspaper front page headlines have been about swine flu since quite a few days.
All the same, TFA sort of misses the point. While 325k people here might die of malaria every year, nobody in my friend of friends and in their extended family has died of malaria in recent times. All of them know exactly what to do if they caught malaria and how to avoid getting it in the first place. Right now, none of them would know what to do if they caught swine flu. Also, in this sample, statistically speaking, everyone probably has more of a chance of dying of swine flu rather than malaria (even though both the chances are pretty much negligible).
All I am saying is that that comparison to malaria was a bit misleading.
21 comments
[ 0.17 ms ] story [ 46.4 ms ] threadIt definitely is a culture thing because the mass panic isnt on the same level here (for example). I was in China the other week and there are spots of panic going on there too.
I think it's interesting how different cultures react to situations.
-reworded now I found out more about the incident
China and India are very complex countries. They are countries only on the surface. There are hundreds of very different cultures in both. Do you know India has 1762 languages for example? Generalizing for them on the basis of what some ignorant fools believe about eclipses is being as ignorant as them. When they haven't been to grade five. They are more likely to believe heresy and superstition. Most people would not even know what IS cyanide. Forget committing suicide for it. Some people think of the sun as god as have some religious rituals. Having said that, some of these rituals are old.
Remember the hysteria after 9/11? Every two days there used to orange alerts and green and god knows what alerts. Was that a culture thing too?
It isn't about being racist. If you even mention that it (your comment) has to do anything with racism It's about ignorance. And absolute ignorance. I see this way too often about eastern cultures on the internet. And it sure is upsetting and extremely irritating.
Mass panic in the US is incredibly different from what is seen in, say, India. It's fantastically interesting to see.
In the US it tends to be an "inactive panic" - so people will rant at length in bars and with friends etc. but end up taking no practical measures. The media heavily milk the situation but the healthcare profession tend to take a sensible laid back approach. In China (as I havent observed swine flu panic in India) its a much more "active panic". With remedies, face masks, precautions etc.
One of the guys who works for us and lives in India part of the year says mass movement is definitely part of the culture - and that panic (espeacially a global panic) can overlay onto that in interesting ways.
No ignorance: just interest.
> When they haven't been to grade five. They are more likely to believe heresy and superstition.
This perhaps was the problem then: the issue in the comet example was the media started the mass panic. But it was fairly global: and one of the biggest adverse reactions was in Asia.
Also please note you might have misconstrued "culture" - I see you talk about language and heritage, This is not the culture I refer to: but instead culture of the society there. And whilst India does have a many faceted and seriously complex mix of cultures and heritage it also has a clear national culture constructed from that. Sorry I didnt make that clear.
> I see this way too often about eastern cultures on the internet. And it sure is upsetting and extremely irritating.
(sorry to keep editing in further replies - im working at the same time). I find this highly offensive. Because I am definitely not ignorant of Eastern culture having spent some time there and having a deep interest in people, their interactions and their cultures. Please note I never said mass panic doesnt manifest in other cultures - I was simply commenting on one of the unique ways it does manifest in Asia.
http://books.google.com/books?id=U4FZp6f6q6MC&pg=PA437&#... http://starryskies.com/articles/dln/3-98/comet.html
Interestingly in Rome the manifestation was a hording of oxygen bottles (which had to be banned briefly). There was some suicides there too I think.
Well my dear friend this was not in India. But America. I remember watching about this hysteria on Carl Sagan's Cosmos. They had organized parties all over California as they thought they were going to die in some days as the Earth would be finished. And so it was better to have fun, make confessions etc. So there.
Coming back. Well don't you think there's a difference between 1910 and now? If you move the clock back a little. I think witches were pretty common in America and Europe (and related hysteria in towns and cities where they were "located") too don't you think? Or take the hysteria after the launch of the Sputnik. People thought they were just going to be bombed every second day.
And suicides weren't because it was said Halleys' tail had cyanide. It was because of this: Comets have had a history IN ALL cultures to invoke some sort of fear. The only difference is that there are still a lot of people in Eastern countries who are backward. That's the only difference. In Europe not very long ago, comets could lead to executions. In places like India and China there are still a lot of people who hold on to such beliefs that the gods are angry.
And when I said about culture I meant that there are hundreds of cultures and such rituals are more prevalent in some of them than the others. So generalizing would be a sin.
About flu. I have not been to America since the outbreak of the flu so I can't say. I think in India and China some of it is necessary. A lot of people live in slums, and these are more likely to catch the virus once it has spread. Right now it is confined to people who came in touch with people coming from abroad. If there isn't a certain degree of hysteria, there could be catastrophe when these poor people start getting it.
And I agree with your point about the media created frenzy, but I again believe that it's the same in all countries if you normalize.
It was definitely global: and the material reference India and Rome specifically.
I suspect your thinking to the Heavens Gate cult (which is a different incident) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_%28cult%29
> Well don't you think there's a difference between 1910 and now?
Yes. I never implied there wasnt! The effect of fear is still the same - and though the response has changed it is intriguing.
> The only difference is that there are still a lot of people in Eastern countries who are backward.
You've brought "backward" into this: im uncomfortable with that. Quite where I have suggested any form of backwardness (???) is a bit of a mystery - you've made an assumption I think (my fault: I was too objective in the original statement). I also call bull shit. There are lots of "backwards" people in the world irrespective of culture. No more or no less in Eastern countries. I cant believe you would suggest as much!
There actually is an important difference: but not the one you identified. It is to do with Stigma. In Europe especially there is a HUGE stigma about suicide. In 1910 it was even more so. There was almost certainly terror but the suicide rate was lower (if not almost non-existant) because doing so was bad.
I've noticed that stigma is less apparent (but not, note, non-existent) in some parts of Asia. This I would suggest identifes
> A lot of people live in slums, and these are more likely to catch the virus once it has spread.
You make a superb point and I agree. I havent seen "on the ground" but it would be interesting to see the reactions of those living in slums compared to, say, middle class business men. From previous observations I would suspect that a more "hysterical" reaction would be in the business persons with the others taking a more liberal view.
And note we are talking about panic: which is a bad thing in these circumstances. If it is, as you say, confined to those coming from abroad then mass panic seems overkill. Concern, planning and education is the better approach (but everywhere has fallen foul of that).
But here were on a discussion of panic and hysteria: where I was sort of talking more about how reactions to that manifest.
Here in the UK there has been NO reaction even in the slightest bit similar to that in India, China and lots of other regions (Italy again strikes me as one to join that group from what I have read). A lot of the media hype has met with cynicism. There was some hoarding of Tammiflu but that died off very quickly when people weren't really dying of it. Every few weeks now the media try and whip it all up again but it's not sticking.
I find these to polar reactions interesting: and it really does appear to me that culture is the overriding factor in all of it.
Sure it had to be. But it can not be in India due to news that the comet tail had cyanide AT ALL. In India it would have to do more with religious and cultural implications of a comet than what it had (just like it would have had an impact in Europe a century earlier).
>> You've brought "backward" into this: im uncomfortable with that.
Well I should I have been clearer. What I meant was not related to your point. I meant that a lot of people would still think that eclipse has to do with gods than being a physical phenomenon. I think that ignorance. And this is more prevalent in people in India who are educationally backward.
>> I've noticed that stigma is less apparent
I found your paragraph interesting. And I do not agree. There could be a whole new thread on that.
>> And note we are talking about panic: which is a bad thing in these circumstances. If it is, as you say, confined to those coming from abroad then mass panic seems overkill. Concern, planning and education is the better approach (but everywhere has fallen foul of that)...
I agree with the rest of your comment after this point. And I think this is more studied.
see after 3:25. Please do.
People in India would not commit suicide due to knowing there is cyanide in comet's tail. But because maybe the gods are angry. ;-) So I do think your comment was ignorant at face value.
Hysteria is common to all cultures. Certain hysteria would be more likely in western cultures and some more likely in eastern cultures. A bomb blast in LA would lead to hysteria in CA. A bomb blast in Peshawar would be normal. Life would be okay in another two days.
I don't think it's wise to say it's a culture thing.
yes. I have never suggested otherwise!
My point is reaction to that hysteria is very different!
While I respect your interest in people and I don't mean it to be personal at all.
The context of my replies gets lost.
I am Indian too, but I don't find anything "offensive" about it.
If anyone misconstrues our culture, and we think it deserves correcting, let us correct them with facts, data and explanations and not necessarily assume ill will. God knows many Indians look on Americans as uncultured barbarians with a lot of money but no culture. They are wrong too, but being offended may not be a productive response.
At least on HN let us assume goodwill and argue based on facts vs perceived intention and "offensiveness". I am not disputing your right to be offended, just trying to propose an alternative. All cultures have ridiculous and glorious aspects. All people have incomplete perceptions.
As I said, I am Indian and live in India these days, but have lived in the USA. I maybe limited in my experience, but I've found most people in both countries to be decent people with no real notions of cultural superiority. This might be a good assumption to work off unless proved otherwise.
Just my 2 cents. Ok I am done. Thanks for listening. carry on :-)
I have met my share of obnoxious people, both in the USA and in India, It is just that it is (in my opinion) very very hard to read the correct tone into written communication, specifically casual email/internet posts and a modicum of caution in this respect pays rich dividends.
yeh sorry. this was why I edited it. Both as I dug out some reference to the event I read about and your reply highlighted areas of confusion.
The UK of course took the much more sensible course of setting up a website and phone line where people could just be handed out one of the few wide spectrum oral antivirals like candies.
Good job that antibiotic resistant bacteria aren't already a problem, killing more people in hospitals each year than die on the roads. We have turned a million people (none of whom will complete the course once they feel a bit better) into incubators for Tamiflu resistant viruses.
Since the phone line / website things seem to have even gone quiet in the media which is intruiging.
And yes, it was a poor reaction; I could quite believe they actually did it. Though my doctor (when visiting him on an unrelated point) said there was no physical way they can test every valid complainant so they were handing it out anyway simply for safety)
All the same, TFA sort of misses the point. While 325k people here might die of malaria every year, nobody in my friend of friends and in their extended family has died of malaria in recent times. All of them know exactly what to do if they caught malaria and how to avoid getting it in the first place. Right now, none of them would know what to do if they caught swine flu. Also, in this sample, statistically speaking, everyone probably has more of a chance of dying of swine flu rather than malaria (even though both the chances are pretty much negligible).
All I am saying is that that comparison to malaria was a bit misleading.