Nice idea, and I wish them well, but I suspect it will take more than a free gym for every 50,000 people to put a significant dent in Brazil's inequality and health problems.
what most people miss is that this term applies to about every government known to man. Oh sure many countries would never call their government capitalist but they sure do the same thing, politicians and private or appointed owners of production work together to protect their status usually with little concern for others.
As a lot of things here in Brazil, this looks like not very thought through.
"When you consider the fact that Brazilian diets are commonly high in fat – meat is often eaten for all three meals of the day – it’s no surprise that hypertension, diabetes, cancer, obesity and cardiovascular disease are on the rise."
What about all the serious recent research showing little correlation between fat in diet and all the diseases? EDIT: also, I would add that meat is often eaten in upper classes meals. Meat is a luxury for the better part of our population.
Actually, I believe that there is research showing that physical activities has, at the most, an indirect effect on obesity. Although I can't cite any study here.
Another strange passage:
"What really convinces politicians and funders is evidence. "
Not sure this is true, in Brazil or any other democracy. What really convinces politicians are projects that generate good publicity. Which this one proved it can.
Said that, I think this is indeed a good project and it is a good thing that it is running. But I am inclined to say that the answer to "Can a grand vision of 4,000 free public gyms overcome inequality and fight Brazil’s health crisis? " is no.
"Said that, I think this is indeed a good project and it is a good thing that it is running."
But is it a billion dollars of good?
Especially if the most likely outcome obtains and these turn into 4,000 underused and eventually neglected gyms, eventually resulting in almost all 4,000 being sold at fire sale prices once the government's priorities move on?
The article seems to indicate that the gyms are actually used. Even better, they seem to reclaim previously neglected and unsafe public space. That seems like a good use of public space to me, like a soccer field or a well-maintained park, even irrespective of any health benefits.
Of course, lots can go wrong in the actual implementation (clever uses for public spaces are notoriously tricky and hard to get right), but this doesn’t seem like a bad idea to me.
What really convinces politicians are projects that generate good publicity.
I used to think that counted, but then I noticed that most politicians regularly support projects that generate appalling publicity, so what really convinces politicians most of the time is probably just bribes and prostitutes.
I thought the good/bad fat controversy had been laid to rest? Fat is good for you, insofar as it doesn't contribute to obesity which is the real demon.
It seems that the low-carb/paleo alliance is turning that controversy on on its head by theorizing that the polyunsaturated vegetable oils (e.g. corn, canola, peanut, soybean) are really bad for you. http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/2013/02/07/surprise-s...
I've heard that, but then I've also heard that moderate obesity (obviously not 2x "normal" weight, but say 1.25x) is actually associated with longer lifetimes than normal weight. There doesn't actually seem to be much consensus in these areas.
I thought there were multiple tentative results showing that starvation (to the degree that menstruation etc. stops) increases life expectancy. Anyway, the consensus is that obesity is very bad, but I'm not sure if 1.25x is obese.
The RS has historically had more plentiful meat, thus the popularity of churrasco here. Also, while I'm not very well travelled, I've had people from the rest of the country react with shocked gasps when I mentioned that I drink tap water at home, turns out the situation is quite different in the northern areas. As someone once told me: "a relative travelled to the RS once, he told me it is almost like a different country."
Meat is not a luxury in Recife, one of the cities mentioned in the article. Here, even low income families eat meat every day, despite being low quality meat. Red meat is more expensive, but chicken is very common.
> Meat is a luxury for the better part of our population
Yeah, i dont know in what Brazil the OP is living in.. meat is pretty much as "rice and beans" even for the poor ones.. and in no way is a luxury item
Maybe by meat he means "Picanha" and the most noble parts.. which is indeed expensive and not a "everyday meat"..
Note: i was born in the south, raised be "churrascos".. and now live in northeast.. considered by the south brazillians like low-income.. but the reality.. is far from truth..
This country is very big, and we need to know ourselves better.. the old rules and believes no more applies..
(Northeast is now in a constant uprise economically while south and southeast are pratically economically frozen)
it’s no surprise that hypertension, diabetes, cancer, obesity and cardiovascular disease are on the rise.
Did Brazilian diets change recently to include a bunch of meat? If not then "on the rise" should be surprising. If there was no change in diet and no change in diet related disease levels then it would be unsurprising. But changes in diet related diseases without a change in diet should be somewhat surprising or at least hint that some other factor has changed.
> Did Brazilian diets change recently to include a bunch of meat?
Yes, for some values of "recently" (past 20 years).
We had a sort of economic renaissance in the 90s, when the government finally managed to control hyperinflation amongst other reforms (slashing tariffs, privatization of several state companies, etc).
One of the consequences is that people started eating more meat. The chart in this page shows the chicken consumption per capita (in kg):
It's the same as has happened in other places: processed foods and restaurants have taken over. Brazilians are bigger, fatter, and more sedentary than they used to be (just like Americans, Chinese, etc).
One more data point, this one from Santa Catarina, where my gf lives with her single mom, they're definitely not upper class but eat meat about twice a day.
Yes, I've had personal experience with a lot of different types of Brazilians, in different parts of Brazil, and I'd say eating meat is no longer a middle-upper class thing as it might have been a decade ago.
>>What about all the serious recent research showing little correlation between fat in diet and all the diseases?
Do you mean the few studies coming from the Weston A Price Foundation reverberated by thousands of paleo-fad blogs/books? The ones that have been refuted over and over by the real experts?
>> I would add that meat is often eaten in upper classes meals. Meat is a luxury for the better part of our population.
That's simply not true. I'm originally from Brazil and eating meat is not an upper class thing. Animal products are consumed in luxurious gated communities and in favelas alike. It's part of the culture. Unless you're below the poverty line you eat meat daily in Brazil. And those below the poverty line are not the ones dying from heart disease.
And? Do you think smoking became all of the sudden healthy again over the last 50 years since they discovered it is a main cause for cancer? Unless there is a reasonable expectation that things have changed, studies are valid and do not get invalidated by age.
Considering that a decent study might take easily a year to run and another year to get through the peer review process, 10 years are actually rather recent. I've seen papers (although in a different field) that in 2013 describe discoveries from the late 199x as "recent".
Your comparison with smoking is completely unfair. The problem is that we have scientific proof that smoking tobacco causes lung cancer (the emphasis is on "causes"). The problem with nutritional science is that we only have correlation data (or at least it looks like so).
I live in the biggest meat-producing province in Canada. People up here love beef, and that includes beef jerky. Expensive beef jerky is made with local beef. Pretty much every supermarket and convenience store carries cheap jerky that is imported from Argentina.
I don't know how much meat is produced in Brazil, but simply being next to Argentina means that their market is flooded with as much cheap beef as they could possibly want.
I don't know the meaning churrasco has in the US but it quite literally means barbecue. So you can have a churrasco, you can go to a churrascaria, etc but it has nothing to do with beef jerky.
I'm now reading "The Big Fat Surprise" (http://www.thebigfatsurprise.com/ and http://www.amazon.com/The-Big-Fat-Surprise-Healthy/dp/145162...). I have not read the whole book yet but if what is written in it is truth then there is no science I am expecting in lipid hypothesis and that's is very disappointing. I will double check some facts myself after reading this book but it is interesting. 1-star comments in amazon look valuable as well.
Just spent 20 minutes by following comments, blogs and found this:
I have listened to it. It was interesting but it was disappointing at some moments. It is interesting how conspiracy theories work both for and against his position (I will take it as irrelevant for discussion). It is interesting how some of his facts are poorly investigated. E.g. he mentioned EPIC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Prospective_Investigat...) but EPIC found only that regular consumption of PROCESSED meat increases the risk of cardiovascular diseases and death from cancer. There is no correlation between unprocessed meat and those health problems according to EPIC.
BTW I'm from Europe and sometimes I visit USA. Food in USA is usually bad and usually accompanied with bad eating behaviors. You can get good food in USA but it is expensive and hard to find. I can see how changing diet to vegan/vegetarian can improve health if you are living in USA.
Even the connection between exercise and weight loss can be questioned. I highly doubt that gyms will solve the obesity problem. That said, I'm sure the Brazilian people will appreciate the gyms.
>When you consider the fact that Brazilian diets are commonly high in fat – meat is often eaten for all three meals of the day – it’s no surprise that hypertension, diabetes, cancer, obesity and cardiovascular disease are on the rise.
I'm sad to report that I downvoted most of the comments replying to this line because they are not constructive: they fail to provide support for their claims, but their only claim is that other claims are unsupported. It's just short of trolling.
I'd really, really like not to argue this point in this thread, though. TFA is about a gym construction project, not a dietary intervention, and in any case, the role of "meat" -- which includes many, many different foods -- in the human diet is a complex scientific question which cannot be given a satisfactory treatment in a paragraph.
Instead, I hope to provide here useful, accurate resources that allow interested HNers to learn more about the topic. I preemptively acknowledge that I am not a qualified expert and there are considerable differences of opinion among experts. Let's start with "the problem":
"Dietary patterns and health outcomes": "A systematic review of the literature on dietary patterns [...] was conducted. [...] Both of the currently used approaches for extracting dietary patterns have limitations, are subject to dietary measurement errors, and have not generated new diet and disease hypotheses."
Unfortunately, it turns out nutritional science is hard. Arguing about the age of studies on Wikipedia doesn't help us learn much. The largest study ever conducted on red meat consumption was the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition:
In the mid-20th century, there were concerns that things like phytate might be bad for you by sequestering nutrients. This one-time dietary "villain" turns out to prevent colon cancer:
These effects are both suspected to relate to mineral availability in the small intestine, or, as the researchers state, "Phytic acid forms chelates with various metals and suppresses damaging iron-catalyzed redox reactions." Red meat contains a lot of iron, hence, cancer.
Be careful reading nutrition studies, they can report strange things which may be spurious correlations. This Harvard School of Public Health study finds that chicken without skin is correlated with bladder cancer, but chicken with skin is not:
It is common informally to conflate the constellation of diseases represented by "cardiovascular disease" and that represented by "diabetes and metabolic syndrome". While there is a great deal of literature regarding the relation of meat consumption to the former, it is almost never even mentioned in connection with the latter:
>What about all the serious recent research showing little correlation between fat in diet and all the diseases?
I don't think that is the best way to interpret them, the way I read the gist of recent research is roughly:
0. Calories you didn't eat are better than:
1. Calories from protein are better than:
2. Calories from mono-unsat. fat are better than:
3. Calories from sat. fat are better than:
4. Calories from poly-unsat. fat are better than:
5. Calories from complex carbs are better than:
6. Calories from simple carbs are better than:
7. Calories from trans. fat are better than:
But nothing is better for then the calorie you didn't eat (assuming you have met your caloric needs for the day).
I'm wondering about the reasoning for this particular order. There are different arguments, including the one that sat. fat is the best, as it is the least reactive: it is already fully saturated, while mono and poly have still potential to acquire more hydrogens. This is why some people prefer cooking with animal fat: they assume it is more "inert" under heating.
Anyway, wouldn't it make sense to order them in order of saturation, either sat > mono > poly, or in reverse, poly > mono > sat?
> I believe that there is research showing that physical activities has, at the most, an indirect effect on obesity.
Whether an effect is "indirect" or not is an orthogonal consideration to whether it is significant. Most effects are indirect on close enough analysis (gunshot wounds other than those inflicting direct trauma to the central nervous system only indirectly produce death, but that's doesn't mean getting shot in the heart has an insignificant effect on your chance of dying.)
I'm a Brazilian and I've seem near my home those 'open gyms' coming up in the latest years.
I never see any instructor, but there is this square just across the street of my house that got some 'gym equipment' for everyone to use.
It's a lovely idea, but (IMHO) this move solely doesn't do much towards better health results. It's nice to bundle some equipment to do better workout where we already exercise, but in the end I feel like it would be more efective to make more of those areas. There is really few good places to workout around here or take a long walk for instance.
I would love to move around in the city in a bicycle. But there is almost no bicycle path, and facing the transit with buses passing centimeters to you is just for the brave.
Wow, what's up with all the negative comments on HN?
Brazil has $2.5 trillion annual GDP, according to the World Bank it spends 9.3% on health. That's over $200B. Even if this project costs $1B annually, IMHO spending .5% on effective preventation is a great idea.
Why not try it out on one city before spending a billion on the whole country? Too many large scale leaders insist on the grand "I'm sure it will work" idea before bothering to try it out on the small scale first.
1. More than 10 per cent of Brazilians live on just two US dollars a day, despite the fact that the country ranks fifth in the world for its number of billionaires.
2. I'm for anything that helps the poor.
3. In America, I'm not asking for a gym membership, but it
would be nice to have Public restrooms? Yes--just a restroom. "No--we have no restroom!" "The closest restroom is in that hotel, but you have to sneak in the back door"
"Why do the Homeless defecate in the pristine park?"
"Mom--did you bring your Detrol--there will probally be no
restrooms." Yea--It's a problem. And I don't want to hear
if you build it, they will come. Exactly who will come--99%
of the people will be there because they need to use the
toilet, and wash their hands.
I know that exercise doesn't make that much of a dent in the overall obesity epidemic by itself, but I wonder how much of just exercising influences one's diet. For instance, if I run 3 miles today, am I more or less likely to eat a salad for dinner? Or a pizza? Am I more likely to watch my diet if I'm exercising, or am I more likely to splurge? Is there a trend in either direction?
If exercise influences diet positively, then this is absolutely worth it. If it doesn't affect diet at all or if it affects diet negatively, then that's another story. While exercise is great in and of itself, it doesn't solve an obesity epidemic. Even people who exercise every day can have cardiac problems if they don't eat well.
So would you all have happily paid for all those fat people's gyms?
If they want to exercise they could put some walking/running to their daily programme. You only need a pair of legs to do so. But slackers always find excuses, and bureaucrats always find ways to spend the money of the economically illiterate with the smart and naive minds, as it seems.
60 comments
[ 3.8 ms ] story [ 127 ms ] thread"When you consider the fact that Brazilian diets are commonly high in fat – meat is often eaten for all three meals of the day – it’s no surprise that hypertension, diabetes, cancer, obesity and cardiovascular disease are on the rise."
What about all the serious recent research showing little correlation between fat in diet and all the diseases? EDIT: also, I would add that meat is often eaten in upper classes meals. Meat is a luxury for the better part of our population.
Actually, I believe that there is research showing that physical activities has, at the most, an indirect effect on obesity. Although I can't cite any study here.
Another strange passage:
"What really convinces politicians and funders is evidence. "
Not sure this is true, in Brazil or any other democracy. What really convinces politicians are projects that generate good publicity. Which this one proved it can.
Said that, I think this is indeed a good project and it is a good thing that it is running. But I am inclined to say that the answer to "Can a grand vision of 4,000 free public gyms overcome inequality and fight Brazil’s health crisis? " is no.
But is it a billion dollars of good?
Especially if the most likely outcome obtains and these turn into 4,000 underused and eventually neglected gyms, eventually resulting in almost all 4,000 being sold at fire sale prices once the government's priorities move on?
Of course, lots can go wrong in the actual implementation (clever uses for public spaces are notoriously tricky and hard to get right), but this doesn’t seem like a bad idea to me.
I used to think that counted, but then I noticed that most politicians regularly support projects that generate appalling publicity, so what really convinces politicians most of the time is probably just bribes and prostitutes.
It’s also cheaper to eat badly because processed foods that are high in fats and sugars are often cheaper than fresh produce.
This is just like the US, where it's cheaper to eat BAD fats and sugar-laden food.
I've heard that, but then I've also heard that moderate obesity (obviously not 2x "normal" weight, but say 1.25x) is actually associated with longer lifetimes than normal weight. There doesn't actually seem to be much consensus in these areas.
And I speak as poor person that knows people that gain less than $500 per month.
Yeah, i dont know in what Brazil the OP is living in.. meat is pretty much as "rice and beans" even for the poor ones.. and in no way is a luxury item
Maybe by meat he means "Picanha" and the most noble parts.. which is indeed expensive and not a "everyday meat"..
Note: i was born in the south, raised be "churrascos".. and now live in northeast.. considered by the south brazillians like low-income.. but the reality.. is far from truth..
This country is very big, and we need to know ourselves better.. the old rules and believes no more applies..
(Northeast is now in a constant uprise economically while south and southeast are pratically economically frozen)
Did Brazilian diets change recently to include a bunch of meat? If not then "on the rise" should be surprising. If there was no change in diet and no change in diet related disease levels then it would be unsurprising. But changes in diet related diseases without a change in diet should be somewhat surprising or at least hint that some other factor has changed.
Yes, for some values of "recently" (past 20 years).
We had a sort of economic renaissance in the 90s, when the government finally managed to control hyperinflation amongst other reforms (slashing tariffs, privatization of several state companies, etc).
One of the consequences is that people started eating more meat. The chart in this page shows the chicken consumption per capita (in kg):
http://revistaepoca.globo.com/Revista/Epoca/0,,EDG51460-6009...
Do you mean the few studies coming from the Weston A Price Foundation reverberated by thousands of paleo-fad blogs/books? The ones that have been refuted over and over by the real experts?
Despite all the headlines telling you that bacon is healthy, the lipid hypothesis is still the scientific consensus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipid_hypothesis#Widespread_acc...
>> I would add that meat is often eaten in upper classes meals. Meat is a luxury for the better part of our population.
That's simply not true. I'm originally from Brazil and eating meat is not an upper class thing. Animal products are consumed in luxurious gated communities and in favelas alike. It's part of the culture. Unless you're below the poverty line you eat meat daily in Brazil. And those below the poverty line are not the ones dying from heart disease.
Considering that a decent study might take easily a year to run and another year to get through the peer review process, 10 years are actually rather recent. I've seen papers (although in a different field) that in 2013 describe discoveries from the late 199x as "recent".
I don't know how much meat is produced in Brazil, but simply being next to Argentina means that their market is flooded with as much cheap beef as they could possibly want.
However, Brazil has almost five times the population, so the Argentines are still ahead on a per-capita basis.
In any case, the Brazilians are not about to run out of beef any time soon.
Just spent 20 minutes by following comments, blogs and found this:
http://www.foodpolitics.com/2014/03/is-saturated-fat-a-probl...
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fal...
BTW I'm from Europe and sometimes I visit USA. Food in USA is usually bad and usually accompanied with bad eating behaviors. You can get good food in USA but it is expensive and hard to find. I can see how changing diet to vegan/vegetarian can improve health if you are living in USA.
I'm sad to report that I downvoted most of the comments replying to this line because they are not constructive: they fail to provide support for their claims, but their only claim is that other claims are unsupported. It's just short of trolling.
I'd really, really like not to argue this point in this thread, though. TFA is about a gym construction project, not a dietary intervention, and in any case, the role of "meat" -- which includes many, many different foods -- in the human diet is a complex scientific question which cannot be given a satisfactory treatment in a paragraph.
Instead, I hope to provide here useful, accurate resources that allow interested HNers to learn more about the topic. I preemptively acknowledge that I am not a qualified expert and there are considerable differences of opinion among experts. Let's start with "the problem":
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002822304...
"Dietary patterns and health outcomes": "A systematic review of the literature on dietary patterns [...] was conducted. [...] Both of the currently used approaches for extracting dietary patterns have limitations, are subject to dietary measurement errors, and have not generated new diet and disease hypotheses."
Unfortunately, it turns out nutritional science is hard. Arguing about the age of studies on Wikipedia doesn't help us learn much. The largest study ever conducted on red meat consumption was the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition:
https://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/11/63/abstract
I'm not going to post the result here: read for yourself. The fulltext is freely available. Red meat probably increases the risk of colon cancer:
http://preventcancer.aicr.org/site/PageServer?pagename=recom...
In the mid-20th century, there were concerns that things like phytate might be bad for you by sequestering nutrients. This one-time dietary "villain" turns out to prevent colon cancer:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8383315
These effects are both suspected to relate to mineral availability in the small intestine, or, as the researchers state, "Phytic acid forms chelates with various metals and suppresses damaging iron-catalyzed redox reactions." Red meat contains a lot of iron, hence, cancer.
Be careful reading nutrition studies, they can report strange things which may be spurious correlations. This Harvard School of Public Health study finds that chicken without skin is correlated with bladder cancer, but chicken with skin is not:
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/84/5/1177.full
I don't understand it either.
It is common informally to conflate the constellation of diseases represented by "cardiovascular disease" and that represented by "diabetes and metabolic syndrome". While there is a great deal of literature regarding the relation of meat consumption to the former, it is almost never even mentioned in connection with the latter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_syndrome#Etiology
Quick, do these studies...
I don't think that is the best way to interpret them, the way I read the gist of recent research is roughly:
But nothing is better for then the calorie you didn't eat (assuming you have met your caloric needs for the day).3. Calories from sat. fat are better than:
4. Calories from poly-unsat. fat are better than:
I'm wondering about the reasoning for this particular order. There are different arguments, including the one that sat. fat is the best, as it is the least reactive: it is already fully saturated, while mono and poly have still potential to acquire more hydrogens. This is why some people prefer cooking with animal fat: they assume it is more "inert" under heating.
Anyway, wouldn't it make sense to order them in order of saturation, either sat > mono > poly, or in reverse, poly > mono > sat?
Whether an effect is "indirect" or not is an orthogonal consideration to whether it is significant. Most effects are indirect on close enough analysis (gunshot wounds other than those inflicting direct trauma to the central nervous system only indirectly produce death, but that's doesn't mean getting shot in the heart has an insignificant effect on your chance of dying.)
I never see any instructor, but there is this square just across the street of my house that got some 'gym equipment' for everyone to use.
It's a lovely idea, but (IMHO) this move solely doesn't do much towards better health results. It's nice to bundle some equipment to do better workout where we already exercise, but in the end I feel like it would be more efective to make more of those areas. There is really few good places to workout around here or take a long walk for instance.
I would love to move around in the city in a bicycle. But there is almost no bicycle path, and facing the transit with buses passing centimeters to you is just for the brave.
(Also its very obvious that flat and colder cities are much better for cycling-as-transportation... you can ride in your office clothes)
Brazil has $2.5 trillion annual GDP, according to the World Bank it spends 9.3% on health. That's over $200B. Even if this project costs $1B annually, IMHO spending .5% on effective preventation is a great idea.
2. I'm for anything that helps the poor.
3. In America, I'm not asking for a gym membership, but it would be nice to have Public restrooms? Yes--just a restroom. "No--we have no restroom!" "The closest restroom is in that hotel, but you have to sneak in the back door" "Why do the Homeless defecate in the pristine park?" "Mom--did you bring your Detrol--there will probally be no restrooms." Yea--It's a problem. And I don't want to hear if you build it, they will come. Exactly who will come--99% of the people will be there because they need to use the toilet, and wash their hands.
If exercise influences diet positively, then this is absolutely worth it. If it doesn't affect diet at all or if it affects diet negatively, then that's another story. While exercise is great in and of itself, it doesn't solve an obesity epidemic. Even people who exercise every day can have cardiac problems if they don't eat well.
http://timclayton.photoshelter.com/image/I0000dmFBPB1xZuQ
http://timclayton.photoshelter.com/image/I0000cCIgGINK7MA
http://timclayton.photoshelter.com/image/I0000DVoSvWJxumY
Is the novelty the presence of free lady classes?