Although this isn't the kind of business that particularly deserves defending, but if US in fact did snatch and grab this guy from the Maldives (Who seem to have no extradition treaty with the US) their actions are far worse than robbing a few credit card companies.
I think they got the Maldivian coppers to arrest him and had the extradition papers ready to go. The arrest warrant has been out for a couple of years according to krebs
the Maldives are part of Interpol so I suspect that honouring that organisations constitution is the legal justification
"1.To ensure and promote the widest possible mutual assistance between all criminal police authorities within the limits of the laws existing in the different countries"
Kudos to you, recent news indicates you were exactly right.
>President Abdulla Yameen denied a claim by Moscow that the United States had abducted Roman Seleznev from the Maldives and taken him to the American territory of Guam.
>Yameen told reporters that Maldives police, acting on an Interpol arrest warrant, had moved against 30-year-old Seleznev during the weekend.
“>No outsider came here to conduct an operation,” Yameen said here last night. “No officials from another country can come here to arrest anyone.
>“The government has the necessary documentation to prove it,” he said, adding that he has asked his foreign minister to explain the situation to her Russian counterpart.
The lack of a formal extradition treaty doesn't mean that extradition can't happen. It just means there's no existing formalized processes and agreements in place. You can still be extradited, or the government might give a foreign government permission to arrest you, or any of a hundred other scenarios. There's nothing "shady" about it.
Considering Russia just recently snached an Ukrainian soldier Nadezhda Savchenko from Ukraine (who had previously been taken hostage by Donbass separatists), they really have no higher ground to stand on.
dublinben is right, but wasn't this soldier snatched by the separatists and not .ru govt? At least with a quick google search I can't find anything saying otherwise.
Is US trying to get every country out there to despise it - on purpose? Because it kind of looks that way. Some suggest they did this to trade him for Snowden. I hope Putin doesn't give in. Also look what US is doing - it's making people root for Putin. And I really don't like Putin.
I think the parent poster was referring to kidnapping someone and taking them to another country with no due process where the kidnapping occurred. Probably against international law/treaties? I have mixed feelings about this: really bad re: the kidnapping, but glad to see a credit card scammer get busted.
He's alleging that he was kidnapped in the Maldives and moved to Guam, which is US territory, so he could be arrested. This is itself illegal; you can't fight crime with more crime.
If Russia have anyone to complain to, then surely it's the Maldives? I doubt the USA went to the trouble of kidnapping the dude without the (cheaply acquired) cooperation of the local police. The USA made no secret of the fact this guy was wanted and would be arrested if possible. I doubt the Maldives will care too much that in future they'll miss out on the Russian-hacker-thief-vacation market.
There are historical precedence for US agents extracting people from countries without that countries consent. There were repeated attempts to kidnap Marc Rich from Switzerland (which failed since the State Dept kept tipping him off.) It is risky because just like spies those US agents will face criminal prosecution themselves if caught.
The bigger issue for the Maldives is does the US care. For a country like Switzerland, it created diplomatic issues. In the Marc Rich case, the problem was a prosecutor (Rudolph Giuliani) who was fucking with US foreign policy. I think the same thing has probably happened in this case.
I would argue maybe the USA shouldn't be "cheaply acquiring" the cooperation of local police. Local police is meant to uphold local laws. The second you pay them to do otherwise in their official capacity both parties are committing if not a crime directly then at least an ethical violation, possibly a violation of sovereignty (given its a state actor putting it in motion). Just being the money doesn't mean you aren't doing something wrong.
Unless the Maldives government was involved to a higher degree than individual officials who may have been paid off then the USA is most certainly who Russia should be directing their complaints at.
Bribes to individual police might be "cheap", but so might some minor trade concessions to a tiny nation that exports very little, in absolute terms, to the USA. Alternatively, perhaps the USA embassy can issue a few dozen more student visas than they were planning on. Is diplomacy illegal too?
i like how tough my old country fights for the rights of its own people... well, may be not of all people, just some of them :)
Anyway, not defending the guy in any manner, just wondering, what if hacking CCs weren't a crime in Russia (or whatever other wild 3rd world country), or if it were just say a minor infraction there, like a traffic ticket whereis in US it would be a capital offense - would it be normal to catch these people, bring into US and execute them? Should US bring half of Nigeria population into US? (does it sound like i'm making the case for the Unified World Government ? :)
> what if hacking CCs weren't a crime in Russia (or whatever other wild 3rd world country), or if it were just say a minor infraction there
The crime that really pissed off the US wasn't "hacking CCs", but "hacking CCs owned by american banks". If he had been robbing russian banks from russia, then likely we would never have cared.
> would it be normal to catch these people, bring into US and execute them
There is no need to turn this hypothetical into a parody. Nobody is talking about execution. But people who commit crimes against americans (or especially against american corporations) probably already fear the US legal system. That's why you won't see a lot of colombian drug lords travelling to the US.
And as the article points out, this isn't even the first time we've done this to a russian citizen. It's almost routine.
> Does it sound like i'm making the case for the Unified World Government ? :)
Not really; local Russian opinions on the matter of CC hacking would become irrelevant, and it would almost certainly be illegal on a World Government basis, and he'd still be arrested. :-P
I think a lot of people here are making too much out of the fact that there's no extradition treaty with the Maldives. An extradition treaty would simply mean that they were more or less obligated to extradite the hacker if the US requested (and vice-versa for the US).
But the Maldives are a sovereign nation--if they are OK with the US taking him into custody, their government is free to let that happen, treaty or not. The only thing which would indicate wrongdoing is if the Maldives filed a protest against the US for the abduction (suggesting it wasn't complicit).
> if they are OK with the US taking him into custody, their government is free to let that happen, treaty or not.
If who is OK with what? The Maldives is a republic and has to follow its laws and process to consider arresting someone on a foreign nations behalf and then consider the extradition.
Republics with executive branches that don't consistently enforce their mandates need to be punished by the world community before a mafia of rampantly criminal executive branches emerges and undermines all democratic republics. Oh wait.
31 comments
[ 6.2 ms ] story [ 492 ms ] thread"1.To ensure and promote the widest possible mutual assistance between all criminal police authorities within the limits of the laws existing in the different countries"
>President Abdulla Yameen denied a claim by Moscow that the United States had abducted Roman Seleznev from the Maldives and taken him to the American territory of Guam.
>Yameen told reporters that Maldives police, acting on an Interpol arrest warrant, had moved against 30-year-old Seleznev during the weekend.
“>No outsider came here to conduct an operation,” Yameen said here last night. “No officials from another country can come here to arrest anyone.
>“The government has the necessary documentation to prove it,” he said, adding that he has asked his foreign minister to explain the situation to her Russian counterpart.
http://www.therakyatpost.com/world/2014/07/10/maldives-denie...
Surely this is a good thing for everyone? At worst it's neutral, if you believe in a competitive free market among thieves.
List of countries the US does have extradition treaties with: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/71600.pdf
The bigger issue for the Maldives is does the US care. For a country like Switzerland, it created diplomatic issues. In the Marc Rich case, the problem was a prosecutor (Rudolph Giuliani) who was fucking with US foreign policy. I think the same thing has probably happened in this case.
Unless the Maldives government was involved to a higher degree than individual officials who may have been paid off then the USA is most certainly who Russia should be directing their complaints at.
Anyway, not defending the guy in any manner, just wondering, what if hacking CCs weren't a crime in Russia (or whatever other wild 3rd world country), or if it were just say a minor infraction there, like a traffic ticket whereis in US it would be a capital offense - would it be normal to catch these people, bring into US and execute them? Should US bring half of Nigeria population into US? (does it sound like i'm making the case for the Unified World Government ? :)
The crime that really pissed off the US wasn't "hacking CCs", but "hacking CCs owned by american banks". If he had been robbing russian banks from russia, then likely we would never have cared.
> would it be normal to catch these people, bring into US and execute them
There is no need to turn this hypothetical into a parody. Nobody is talking about execution. But people who commit crimes against americans (or especially against american corporations) probably already fear the US legal system. That's why you won't see a lot of colombian drug lords travelling to the US.
And as the article points out, this isn't even the first time we've done this to a russian citizen. It's almost routine.
Not really; local Russian opinions on the matter of CC hacking would become irrelevant, and it would almost certainly be illegal on a World Government basis, and he'd still be arrested. :-P
But the Maldives are a sovereign nation--if they are OK with the US taking him into custody, their government is free to let that happen, treaty or not. The only thing which would indicate wrongdoing is if the Maldives filed a protest against the US for the abduction (suggesting it wasn't complicit).
If who is OK with what? The Maldives is a republic and has to follow its laws and process to consider arresting someone on a foreign nations behalf and then consider the extradition.
Republics with executive branches that don't consistently enforce their mandates need to be punished by the world community before a mafia of rampantly criminal executive branches emerges and undermines all democratic republics. Oh wait.