This article goes over much of what happens, but seems to have missed the point of things.
It talks about how the mango went to some backwoods provinces of China - probably not electrified, where a farmer would be considered well-off if they owned a single animal - and how some had superstitious thoughts about it. How is that any different than the uproar we see in the rural US about biology and Darwin being taught in schools, since it contradicts some bizarre superstitions they have out there? In 2009 one of these rural religious types shot dead Dr. George Tiller in Kansas, as Bill O'Reilly and others were on the radio and television talking about how Tiller was the tool of the Devil. 1960s China is played up as being all crazy in this article, in contrast to what I assume would be a sane, modern US. The reality is rural idiocy, class resentments and so forth exist in both places at both times.
I also think the point about the mangoes is missed. It would be like saying an American flag displayed in a political demonstration was worshipped, or some doves let free during a peace demonstration were worshipped, or the CND peace symbol displayed during an anti-war demonstration was worshipped. The mangoes represented an end to much of the strife of the Cultural Revolution, and were understood as such. Most of the militant students were sent off to live in the countryside for a year or two, to cool them down and get them acquainted with the realities of the country. The mangoes represented peace, an end of strife, most people in Beijing understood it in this way, and did see them as a positive symbol. This either escaped the writer, or they are writing the same kind of propaganda they're accusing the Chinese of writing.
It's fair to say, though, that Americans do worship the American flag with a religious fervor, to an extent other countries don't do. A kid who disrespects it isn't going to be taken to the countryside and shot by vigilantes, but he might very well be beaten up in the schoolyard. Because freedom and the troops.
Politicized symbols usually end up used as a substitute for the things they actually are supposed to signify, not as something that merely accompanies the signified. Here the mangos might've symbolized peace and unity of the country, but in fact they were a tool to rebuild the power of a totalitarian, murderous ruler who was responsible for the destruction of countless lives and cultural artifacts.
To me, the article plays this as slightly humorous and kitschy, whereas your comment makes it seem much darker, especially with the Dr. Tiller comparison. One thing you get wrong is, this began among workers at Tsinghua University, not rural dirt farmers. So if this be idiocy (and that seems uncharitable at best to me) it is urban and not rural in character.
Yes it seems incongruous to assume that factory workers were likely to be rural, or even that any reader of TFA would be likely to make that mistaken assumption. I'd hazard that few enough American factory workers would have had much contact with mangoes in 1968, so GP comment is doubly bizarre.
> To me, the article plays this as slightly humorous and kitschy,
It was all like that until you get to the end and find out that people (with at least on specific example) were _killed_ over making a disparaging remark about the "mango". Others were punished for not holding it "reverently" enough.
It sounds funny now it wasn't funny then though.
Idiocy started as urban but it was then pushed and taken advantage of. They built mugs and products with mangoes on it. It wasn't just a local fad.
> It would be like saying an American flag displayed in a political demonstration was worshipped, or some doves let free during a peace demonstration were worshipped
Good points. But it is worshipped if not more so. "Can't let the flag touch the ground". That is just one such thing. Other things are worshipped and revered at the same level -- the Constitution. For large swathes of this country Constitution is not too far from the 10 Commandments. They go hand in hand. Founding Fathers might as well have halos around their heads instead of wigs.
The flag and those things is pretty close to the mango. The mango is funny to us now, it wasn't funny for them locally. I would guess Constitution worship or large religiousness in US is probably just as funny to other Western 1st world countries.
> How is that any different than the uproar we see in the rural US about biology and Darwin
But it is not. Nobody said it was. Just because they had crazy cargo cult worship of a mango doesn't mean we don't have irrational crazies thinking earth was made by some sky daddy 5k years ago who then planted dinosaur bones, along with fake C-14 backdating, to "test" us. There are hundreds of thousands of people who believe that.
They are not on HN, not in your circle of friends. But they vote and have purchasing power, make decisions about our future as well. That is very scary.
Heck it would have a lot better to just have them believe in a magic mango. It would probably be a lot safer.
I suspect you've missed the point - it's about how during an unusual period of China's history, amidst extreme pressure and confusion, a random item took on incredible and I intended significance.
The American flag is a bad comparison - it does have a fixed meaning, it is intentionally imbued with significance that is widely recognized.
The religious example similarly bad. You're talking about people who already have a strong set if beliefs that are being directly challenged - not randomly assigning meaning to meaningless gifts.
I think we can manage to discuss China without it being an attack on China, or without trying to bring up comparisons with the US to 'balance the scales'
There is a story of when people are given from "above" an item without an explanation, they imbue all kinds of meanings to it. Perhaps like in the past when a meteorite fell from the sky, all kinds of religious meanings and explanations for it followed.
The second aspect is that Mao recognized this and quickly capitalized on it. The lesson is, if you see a hype starting, regardless if it is irrational or not, it can be taken advantage of easily.
Then there is a third aspect, and that is the "middle managers" if you wish who also took this to a heart and punished and killed people over being irreverent to the "mango". It might have never been about the mango but it was a pretext who punish someone as a scapegoat to keep control and fear going, if it wasn't the mango it could have been another thing (joke about the party for ex).
As I read that I wondered what if you took one of the mango worshipers and ask them why they are respecting this mango object so much? I wonder what they would have said. You might get a different answer depending if they were afraid of repercussion if they seemed irreverent and didn't say "It is a symbol of Chairman Mao's Love or something.
One can draw a parallel here with cargo cult followers of technologies (frameworks, langauges, api, operation systems, products) and so on. When someone decides to pick a technology and you ask them "why did you pick this framework?" or "what made you want to learn that language?" you can learn quite bit by how they answer. Quite often you'll find they don't understand how basics work and you find out they picked it because it a cargo cult. They start repeating "canned" phrases they heard like "it is webscale" or "it is non-blocking so it is better". Or they say "this is slow" and "this is fast". And you ask "have you measured, how did you measure?". And they haven't, they just repeat something a friend with a cool shoes and haircut told them.
Cargo cult and hype following is not always black and white. I can see some validity at least on saying "a big company is sponsoring this toolkit, so I'll pick it because it will probably have enough ecosystem support to move forward". They might not understand the advantages or trade-offs so they use a heuristic. It is not bad, but it tells you something about the person, too.
>It is not bad, but it tells you something about the person, too.
Isn't this basic human psychology to choose ( or fall into) an ideology because it gives us security from the unknown. We choose to get educated, get married and all that because that gives security from fear of unknown. If you ask people why they go married or decided to have kids you would always get "canned" answers, do you seriously expect everyone to deeply examine everything they do?
Is it even possible to live without some kind of social/biological conditioning?
It is and it is important to understand that aspect. We live and are dominated by ideology, but is still possible to analyze it and understand how it works at the same time.
I think it's well understood that the leadership styles of leaders like Mao intentionally involved encouraging the kind of "cargo cult" attitude you're describing. Ambiguous instructions, hints and implications rather than clear directives - all of these create conditions where the leader is never wrong (instead, subordinates make wrong interpretations) and the leader stays flexible to ride any wave of fanaticism like n this article. It's fascinating.
12 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 11.5 ms ] threadIt talks about how the mango went to some backwoods provinces of China - probably not electrified, where a farmer would be considered well-off if they owned a single animal - and how some had superstitious thoughts about it. How is that any different than the uproar we see in the rural US about biology and Darwin being taught in schools, since it contradicts some bizarre superstitions they have out there? In 2009 one of these rural religious types shot dead Dr. George Tiller in Kansas, as Bill O'Reilly and others were on the radio and television talking about how Tiller was the tool of the Devil. 1960s China is played up as being all crazy in this article, in contrast to what I assume would be a sane, modern US. The reality is rural idiocy, class resentments and so forth exist in both places at both times.
I also think the point about the mangoes is missed. It would be like saying an American flag displayed in a political demonstration was worshipped, or some doves let free during a peace demonstration were worshipped, or the CND peace symbol displayed during an anti-war demonstration was worshipped. The mangoes represented an end to much of the strife of the Cultural Revolution, and were understood as such. Most of the militant students were sent off to live in the countryside for a year or two, to cool them down and get them acquainted with the realities of the country. The mangoes represented peace, an end of strife, most people in Beijing understood it in this way, and did see them as a positive symbol. This either escaped the writer, or they are writing the same kind of propaganda they're accusing the Chinese of writing.
Politicized symbols usually end up used as a substitute for the things they actually are supposed to signify, not as something that merely accompanies the signified. Here the mangos might've symbolized peace and unity of the country, but in fact they were a tool to rebuild the power of a totalitarian, murderous ruler who was responsible for the destruction of countless lives and cultural artifacts.
It was all like that until you get to the end and find out that people (with at least on specific example) were _killed_ over making a disparaging remark about the "mango". Others were punished for not holding it "reverently" enough.
It sounds funny now it wasn't funny then though.
Idiocy started as urban but it was then pushed and taken advantage of. They built mugs and products with mangoes on it. It wasn't just a local fad.
Good points. But it is worshipped if not more so. "Can't let the flag touch the ground". That is just one such thing. Other things are worshipped and revered at the same level -- the Constitution. For large swathes of this country Constitution is not too far from the 10 Commandments. They go hand in hand. Founding Fathers might as well have halos around their heads instead of wigs.
The flag and those things is pretty close to the mango. The mango is funny to us now, it wasn't funny for them locally. I would guess Constitution worship or large religiousness in US is probably just as funny to other Western 1st world countries.
> How is that any different than the uproar we see in the rural US about biology and Darwin
But it is not. Nobody said it was. Just because they had crazy cargo cult worship of a mango doesn't mean we don't have irrational crazies thinking earth was made by some sky daddy 5k years ago who then planted dinosaur bones, along with fake C-14 backdating, to "test" us. There are hundreds of thousands of people who believe that.
They are not on HN, not in your circle of friends. But they vote and have purchasing power, make decisions about our future as well. That is very scary.
Heck it would have a lot better to just have them believe in a magic mango. It would probably be a lot safer.
The American flag is a bad comparison - it does have a fixed meaning, it is intentionally imbued with significance that is widely recognized.
The religious example similarly bad. You're talking about people who already have a strong set if beliefs that are being directly challenged - not randomly assigning meaning to meaningless gifts.
I think we can manage to discuss China without it being an attack on China, or without trying to bring up comparisons with the US to 'balance the scales'
There is a story of when people are given from "above" an item without an explanation, they imbue all kinds of meanings to it. Perhaps like in the past when a meteorite fell from the sky, all kinds of religious meanings and explanations for it followed.
The second aspect is that Mao recognized this and quickly capitalized on it. The lesson is, if you see a hype starting, regardless if it is irrational or not, it can be taken advantage of easily.
Then there is a third aspect, and that is the "middle managers" if you wish who also took this to a heart and punished and killed people over being irreverent to the "mango". It might have never been about the mango but it was a pretext who punish someone as a scapegoat to keep control and fear going, if it wasn't the mango it could have been another thing (joke about the party for ex).
As I read that I wondered what if you took one of the mango worshipers and ask them why they are respecting this mango object so much? I wonder what they would have said. You might get a different answer depending if they were afraid of repercussion if they seemed irreverent and didn't say "It is a symbol of Chairman Mao's Love or something.
One can draw a parallel here with cargo cult followers of technologies (frameworks, langauges, api, operation systems, products) and so on. When someone decides to pick a technology and you ask them "why did you pick this framework?" or "what made you want to learn that language?" you can learn quite bit by how they answer. Quite often you'll find they don't understand how basics work and you find out they picked it because it a cargo cult. They start repeating "canned" phrases they heard like "it is webscale" or "it is non-blocking so it is better". Or they say "this is slow" and "this is fast". And you ask "have you measured, how did you measure?". And they haven't, they just repeat something a friend with a cool shoes and haircut told them.
Cargo cult and hype following is not always black and white. I can see some validity at least on saying "a big company is sponsoring this toolkit, so I'll pick it because it will probably have enough ecosystem support to move forward". They might not understand the advantages or trade-offs so they use a heuristic. It is not bad, but it tells you something about the person, too.
Isn't this basic human psychology to choose ( or fall into) an ideology because it gives us security from the unknown. We choose to get educated, get married and all that because that gives security from fear of unknown. If you ask people why they go married or decided to have kids you would always get "canned" answers, do you seriously expect everyone to deeply examine everything they do?
Is it even possible to live without some kind of social/biological conditioning?