Ask HN: Who isn't in the software industry/not a hacker?

157 points by graham1776 ↗ HN
I work as an Associate in the commercial real estate industry and wonder how many others like me are out there on HN. Is there a community here like me who have an interest in technology and entrepreneurship but aren't hackers?

I love this site because: A) I get news on average 2-3 days before it makes it's way through the news cycle. B) Technology interests me and I can see what new tech could benefit my industry C) I am a wantrepreneur and like reading about startups, hopefully wanting to start one someday.

Why are you here and what do you get out of the community?

194 comments

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I'm a management consultant. When hackers (Michael O'Church, for instance) write about "MBA Culture" as opposed to "Hacker Culture" - well, I'm in the center of the MBAs.

Why do I read HN? Mostly, because I like and enjoy working in the technology space (defined broadly) and hope to build a career in tech. HN is great at giving me a view over the other side of the fence.

Do you agree with what Michael O'Church says about MBA culture? I've read a whole lot of his side of the argument but very little from somebody 'in the center of the MBAs'.
I'm in sales (network monitoring, deep packet inspection and security). I've tried code bootcamps six or seven times, but coding isn't for me, talking is my thing. As you said, the frontpage is the day after tomorrows news in my industry. Just because I read HN, it seems I'm very well informed. Besides that I'm a failed entrepeneur (closed shop after 2 years, now mostly wantrepeneur/idea-guy ;)) and I enjoy reading succes stories of others.
I'm an electrical/computer engineer. Coding/CS is only an auxiliary interest for me.
Same deal. HN exposes me to some CS stuff. Also important, the EE/CE community is small, and I share many general interests with the CS community, so I jump on the CS news bandwagon.
HN readers like yourself are a big plus, it lends the site diversity. There is also a fairly big age range.

I would definitely agree with point A.

The odd gem, like [0].

Advice or pointers from other HN readers.

I do not work in the software industry, but I would call myself a hacker.

The term "hacker" can be interpreted in imaginative ways, I wouldn't be surprised to find hackers in your area of work.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7388576

HN is a fascinating place mainly because it is one of the most diverse communities of incredibly intelligent people on the web.

The level of discourse is usually high while covering a very broad range of subjects. Subject specific communities still exceed HN competency in their respective domains, but nowhere that I've found covers such a diverse range of topics with a relatively high competence.

Unfortunately there are still some very obvious biases regarding certain subjects, but at least the community entertains other points of view.

Although I'm an engineer by training, HN has led me to explore many domains to which I wouldn't otherwise have been exposed. Furthermore, there are some incredible individuals here who I'd never run into otherwise, and discussions with them are extremely satisfying.

Overall a great community, though sometimes limited by the bias of its origins.

Evil corporate lawyer.... love code, algorithms, new tech, and insightful commentary. HATE advertising.
I'm an analyst at a hedge fund, I have a job as a generalist so I look at pretty much every asset class/geography/industry.

Historically have done very little investing in tech, but I'm interested in it and HN is a good way to keep up with the industry.

I look at startups as businesses or industries where the rate of change is much faster than normal. I think as an investor you're really a student of business and that makes startups a really fascinating area to observe.

I'm a consulting actuary.

What am I doing here? I've been programming since I was 11 and still do it often. You have to as an actuary.

Besides I have some web skills and I'm using to build a startup doing risk management for farmers. In this startup I'm responsible for the whole stack.

What does an actuary do? And what programming do you do?
What an actuary does depends, other replies indicate that actuaries don't do as much programming as I thought they did. However, I do a lot. At the moment I'm mainly responsible for building a large cash flow model (40k lines of VBA).
Also an actuary. Consulted at one time but work at a company now. I started programming around the same age and also use it for work. We all do SQL but I am the only one doing general purpose coding at my company.

Also have web skills (the coincidences just keep coming). I do a few things on the side and am contemplating a bootstrapped startup soonish. For example, I did everything but the logo on this site: http://tvsift.com/

I'm an actuary as well! I would dispute GP that "as an actuary you have to program". The overwhelming majority of actuaries I know barely know how to use VBA. I quit chasing a career in Comp Sci at uni (I started programming at a very young age, and always wanted to be a software engineer) to switch to actuarial science, but now, even though I'm a Fellow, I've quit my job to go into entrepreneurship. I think that being an actuary places us very well to go into startups that take advantage of our analytic and risk management skill set. With the amount of data being collected, that means about 90% of startups.
I can't argue with your experiences and I guess I have been living in a bubble. With all the legacy data we have (the company started using IT in the 60s and the coverages are until the end of life... AS/400 is still in active use) data munging is a task in itself.

I fully agree with your last sentence! May I ask what you're working on?

May I ask how big your company is? I'm quite surprised to hear you're the only one that codes. In our risk modeling of 15, 10 code daily.

If I understand correctly tvsift shows were you can find streaming services for a particular Tv-series, am I right?

Looks well done, I like the filter. Unfortunately for me the links below the series are not working for me on iPad (latest iOS).

Also a consulting actuary, here for the same reason as you. The number of actuaries replying here is pretty remarkable given the extremely small size of the profession.

As far as I know there is exactly one credentialed actuary working in any capacity in SV, but that number can only go up in the future.

I'm also an actuary, but do some coding in my own time. I'm primarily here due to interest on current technology and programming trends and generally interesting articles.

Our team does a lot of analysis programming in R rather than taking the more common Excel/VBA approach. This allows common practices in software development such as version control tools (and the collaboration they can help with), testing, deployment strategies, etc, to be a major part of the usual workflow that would otherwise be missing from the usual speadsheet world so exposure to HN helps promote this in my mind as good practice.

The main draw of HN for me is the consistently high quality of posts and comments. I can be sure that were I to see the same content posted across general news sites, or other aggregators such as Reddit, then HN would be the only place I'd care to look and be certain that I'd also be learning plenty (often more than the original article) from the HN comments alone.

    Our team does a lot of analysis programming in R rather than taking the more 
    common Excel/VBA approach. This allows common practices in software development 
    such as version control tools (and the collaboration they can help with), 
    testing, deployment strategies, etc, to be a major part of the usual workflow 
    that would otherwise be missing from the usual speadsheet world so 
    exposure to HN helps promote this in my mind as good practice.
One nice trick your average actuary won't come up with is recursively exporting all your VBA code. The model I'm building is one big .xlsm referencing .xla's referencing other .xla's. By selecting the .xlsm in the VBA IDE we can export all code to a folder (with sub folders for every part) and put this in version control.

Unfortunately, unit testing remains difficult in Basic. I try to control the problems caused by a lack of test by regularly regressing the enormous amounts of output we have. If things that shouldn't change, change we know we have a problem. Of course, this testing can be automated.

software isn't an industry, it's a way of life.
I work in infection control in a large urban hospital (microbiology and epidemiology background/education). Computer skills required for my job are basically Word and Excel.

I enjoy the tech startup world and have plans to start my own in the very near future. Currently using various sites to learn to program myself (Codeacademy, Bento, Dash). I think it is important to know what your site is doing and be able to respond to issues.

I have learned so much from this community/site that I hope it will put me on a better path to success. However, the one thing about HN (and this is true of just about any community) that there are people here who are so smart, that I get convinced that I'm not ready to start building my site. I see examples of javascript here for example, and I think "My skills are no where close to that, how can I possible start working on my sites JS."

There is always going to be someone better than you. I'd say just start working on your site's JS, you have no idea how much you'll learn in the process :)
Thanks. I did the same a few years ago when I took a job that required Filemaker development and I had never used the software before (downloaded the free trial before the job). Once you start using something, and you have the knowledge to know where to look for help/answers, you can do quite a bit.
Hey – working on a startup in the space and am very interested in talking with somebody working in infection control. If it's of interest, please send me an email (in my profile).

And would love to hear your plans too!

I'll second anmonteiro90.

Just a few points. Put your work in a version control system (optimally Mercurial or Git), study the request-response cycle for a few hours (no need to get very deep, but understand what programs are involved in your site, and how to configure them), and yeah, do it.

I'm a fighter pilot.

Best place to get news about the trends shaping our world, and muse over natl security implications.

That's awesome.
And terrifying...night carrier landings behind the carrier are pure insanity. After Every single one at least one of my legs was shaking uncontrollably!
As far as I am concerned, there can never be too many online memoirs about carrier night landings. Please write up your stories for us chairbound types!
"... They are all of the same general shape and internal composition, and when looking down upon them, I couldn’t help but think of flying over suburbs of the US ..."

Listening to CDR Chris Hatfield on the radio yesterday, made this exact observation from space. It's a human pattern that you can see from Australia to the US to Afghanistan ~ http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/latenightlive/a...

"... When I emerged from the near empty Officer’s Mess after our Thanksgiving meal, I wandered up to the hanger bay and was shocked by what I saw. Enlisted sailors, many of whom had spent hours painting the walls, and cleaning the floors to present an image of perfection to our superior, were standing in an endless line hundreds deep waiting to get their meal. A meal that was due to close minutes later. I had never seen a line so long on the ship before. Somewhere the logistics chain failed, and priorities were askew. I did what I could for a few of them, but many still missed out on their meal. As a leader of these men and women, I felt ashamed. As far as I know, General Petraeus didn’t get wind of this – had he, I wonder how it would have turned out. ...."

I'm surprised by this. Non provisioning of the enlisted on a major US celebration. Could be mistaken as a sign of shite leadership. Your descriptions of Petraeus on the other hand speaks the opposite.

Would love to hear a story.
Wow, excellent, incredible stories and writing. Thanks for sharing those.
"... Our suspicions were unfounded. Later on the transit home, in the hour of nothing but straight and level fight, we discussed this within our two man crew. The running could have been kids playing as they are wont to do around campfires everywhere. How do you balance the benign with the threatening? ..."

Respect.

You really need to mention that you're a navy carrier pilot. In the world of pilots, navy carrier pilots are the heroes.

My hat's off to you, I have the qualifications but have always hesitated to apply to my nation's pilot programme. The sacrifices military personnel make are really extraordinary when viewed from a civilian point of view.

Much respect.

I also work outside IT field (I'm an architect). Before everything I see HN as a place where you have the smartest online community in the world (I think I am not exaggerating) with a very low amount of noise (with some complains from highly tech oriented and nostalgic users forgetting that non-tech people most of times enrich the community), sometimes even with stories/comments/news told in first person (like here) making the knowledge frontiers available to anyone curious enough to dig it.

Thank you HN.

http://gizmodo.com/5949840/night-carrier-landings-are-crazya...

What do you think about replacing most fighter pilots with unmanned drones? Way of the future or will never happen?
I think unmanned systems will augment, rather than replace manned airplanes. In one way of thinking, we've been using drones for decades...a tomahawk missile is an unmanned vehicle with a warhead.
I'm sure this is a dumb question but why is it preferable to have a pilot in the cockpit if you could keep them on the ground?
Drones are great in permissive environments, but not ready for prime time. Plus they have an astronomical mishap (crash) rate. In Manned airplanes, the pilot can troubleshoot. Also, air to air combat (dogfighting) and aerial tanking can't be done by drones...yet!
Compared to a modern fighter jet, drone aircraft are cheap, dumb, and disposable. Satellite control involves many seconds of latency and sometimes communication is lost entirely, especially in bad weather. It is routine and expected for a drone to just lose contact / fail / crash and be written off. You can get away with that since there's no loss of life, but you probably wouldn't want to use a drone to carry a nuclear bomb, for example. You can always just assassinate the Taliban leader tomorrow, but an unidentified or hostile aircraft violating your airspace needs to be dealt with right now.

There is research on planes that could be sent off with orders and not require continuous communication, avoiding some of these issues, but to my knowledge they aren't in widespread "production" use.

An F-18, on the other hand, is an engineering marvel and extremely responsive, agile, and flexible. Pilots can react very quickly to situations and have a realistic chance of winning dogfights with other fighter jets, for example, which drones almost certainly couldn't do.

On the other hand, if all you need to do is assassinate some people in a country without an air force, a drone will do just fine.

But in a dogfight a drone would have one big advantage: ability to withstand much higher G-forces. For now manned fighter pilots have the edge, but I would be surprised if that's still true in 20 years.
When was our last dogfight? Vietnam?
There was a fair bit of dogfighting in the Gulf War, but as with many things in the military, it matters more that you could then that you actually do.
You get this line from Top Gun? LOL.

Seriously naive either way.

I had thought I'd looked it up before but clearly I was mistaken. Luckily superuser2 was here to reduce my naiveté.
I'm a mechanical engineer, working in product development. I have an interest in programming to the extent that I can try to automate some tedious tasks, but very little formal training. I'm definitely a long ways from being a "hacker" as its known here.

I agree with all of your reasons for visiting HN. I've mentioned this before on another thread, but the guideline that posts should be "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity"[1] tends to produce a lot of content that I find interesting, and I'm sure there are many more people like us here.

One thing that I will add is that I wish that people posted more non-programming jobs in the monthly Who's Hiring. Even if you just posted the approximate job title it'd be better than omitting it entirely. Every month I control+F>"mechanincal engineer", and there are almost never more than one or two posts, despite the fact that I see some of the same companies posting these positions on different job boards.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Woah, my doppelganger!

I work in user acquisition, specifically in SEM (AdWords/Bing). Same reasons here: cursory knowledge of programming I self-taught when trying to automate tasks, but nothing formal. Trying to learn more because I want to go the Product Management route.

This place definitely piques my curiosity in things I sometimes never knew existed. I've been lurking for a few years and can say that I've learned so much more about technology, business, etc. from here that I otherwise wouldn't have (I didn't even know what a PM was before; now I want to be one, heh).

Also echo the desire for non-programming jobs in the Who's Hiring thread, but I guess that's a double-edged sword because if it gets too diverse, it can become like a regular job board and thereby lose its relevance, for employers and employees alike. At the same time, my selfish side wishes it to be so since I would love to work for companies that frequent HN, i.e. more forward-thinking companies doing really cool things (usually).

You don't necessarily have to be able to program to be a Product Manager (I know PMs who don't program). I've also done PM interviews which didn't include anything about programming (the interviews focused more on strategy, functionality and logic/reasoning)
It's nice to hear from others who share the desire to go the PM route.

I've only recently joined HN, but so far I've found it a valuable source of information and discussion. I've been working at a small startup on the product team (not as the PM) for 3 years. We were acquired in April and now I'm really interested in moving on and getting into a product management role, but I'm unsure of how to break into that "market."

My current location (Greensboro, NC) is probably part of the problem I'm having (I am open to moving). I joined HN to try to glean some intel on where to find PM opportunities and figure out what companies (especially the ones on HN) look for when hiring for those roles (programming ability? MBA required? etc.)

If you have found any good info to share, I'd love to hear.

Well it's no wonder you don't find anything if you're searching for "mechanincal engineer"
Same here, I work in the tech industry doing mechanical design. While I would no longer call the company I work for a startup (we were arguably still one when I started) I still find a lot of the conversation around them interesting. I'd still say I'm a hacker, just in a much more physical sense of the word.

While I don't find the vast majority of the content about programming interesting, there is still enough content here that I do find interesting that other similar websites don't cover.

Graduate student who does code but in a non-cs field, I use this site to stay in the know about tech, which has practical value for job interviews.
I'm a neuroscience PhD student, similar deal - I write a lot of code (matlab, python) and find it an enjoyable hobby and potential non-academic career path.
Same, but English literature PhD student keeping an eye on being employable in the future if tenure disappears. Generally find myself writing Python as a hobby or for my dissertation.
I'm a pathologist. I code for a hobby. Building a software product slowly in my spare time.
I've been in IT since 1999 or so, when the high school I was attending recognized my skills and hired me on as a part of a student lead admin team. Myself and 4-5 friends ran the network with a single adult sysadmin. Since then I have branched out to linux admin in my spare time, but have only worked in MS shops. I'm currently working for a propane company as their windows admin and helpdesk monk.. guy.

I don't know a line of code, know a bit of security, but am always interested in how things work and what kind of WiFi is being run in my neighborhood, so I consider myself a hacker.

I'm an artist. I'm engaged in writing and drawing a graphic novel about a robot lady with reality problems.

Reading HN gives me things to mull over regarding my own hesitant steps into the world of promotion, sales, and making a business happen on the web.

Also I used to dabble in programming back in the days of the C64 and Amiga. I will probably never do any major programming projects but I like to keep up with tech news, and this is a decent source for some of that.

I recognized you at "robot lady with reality problems" and I absolutely LOVE your work. Thank you! See you in the future!
haha thanks! I got cons coming up if you're west coast and want to say hi in the flesh: Rose City, Rainfurrest, Emerald City. I was hoping to do a couple more but I missed some table application deadlines.
Your comic is really awesome but the top 20 or 30 pixels are cut off. Please fix it I want to read!! http://cl.ly/image/2J1h2b0B3C40
Oh yeah I need to tweak some stuff in the style after some other changes, thanks!

edit. Finally got off my ass and did what turned out to be a pretty trivial fix, looks fine for me on safari/ff/chrome now. Thanks for the nudge to deal with it.

Awesome, looking forward to a nice sunday read, thanks! :)
I cannot believe I'm seeing you here! Your Tarot of the Silicon Dawn is one of my absolute favorite Tarot decks I have ever owned (out of 50+). I once typed out an email to you (in 2011) respectfully requesting information about whether or not you would take commission for a possible tattoo design; Alas, this email was never sent. Keep up the great work!
Thanks!

Also the answer to the implied question is PROBABLY no; I really hate doing commissions, and don't need the money from them right now. That said if the idea is something that really feels like a thing only I or about five other people could do justice to, I'll consider it.

not sure if there is a community (at the moment?), but there is a wealth of under-the-radar type stuff which is interesting for those outside of the biz (i.e. military).

there seems to be about a 60/40 split between straight tech/programming stuff and more general/non-technical information in a pleasantly-mixed churn. i find HN to be a good motivator to look at other fields through a "hacker" lens and think in an architectural/programming/entrepreneurial/system-level manner.

Im a project manager in customer support. I have a science (chemistry/physics/computer science) background, but I never worked with it professionally. The only programming I do is purely casual.

I enjoy reading about new tech and business - I like the mix of that and other general interest stories. Mostly I come here for the comments - I read comments before most articles, and I tend to only read the articles if there is a good discussion around them.

I operate an small non-profit burlesque museum, but I used to work as a manager/lead tech of a IT consulting and training company. I left tech because the stress was making me ill, but I actually miss it.
I'm a geochemistry PhD student working on volcanoes, but I have several website projects, of which climbshare.com is the most recent. HN has alerted me to some useful new web technologies.
Hey, another geo! I'm guessing you're at New Mexico Tech? (Basing that on the San Lorenzo Unconformity outcrop shown on climbshare... At any rate, you've clearly been out there, even if you're not at NMT.)

On a side note, with climbshare, are you using lidar scans, or are you reconstructing the 3D geometry from photos? Either way, it's quite impressive!

Climbshare is wonderful! I've resorted to the Android Photosphere function for capturing entire boulders, but a true 3d model is infinitely better.

I'd love to know if you're doing this with LIDAR, or reconstruction from 2d images.

How would I go about submitting climb data (mostly boulder problems) to your site? What data do you need,and in what formats?

I'm so glad someone asked this. I'm originally an industrial designer, and ended up in advertising. I spent ten years in advertising, and recently resigned to take a step back and work out what's next. I can code, but I'm definitely not a professional dev.

I've been reading HN for around 5 years. I'm here because I love technology, and love seeing what people are doing with it. Outside a few email lists and Twitter, there's no other site/source that I've stuck with for so long.

What do I get out of it? Aside from always learning new things (I have very little use for lambda calculus or univariate linear regression in my life, yet because of HN I know a lot about both). I spend a lot of my time now working with / mentoring / investing in Melbourne-based startups, and the comments and links I read on HN give me perspectives and thinking and experiences from a global startup community that I wouldn't always have access to.

Of course those opinions and perspectives and experiences are almost always skewed, this place is a filter bubble, but if you keep the bias in mind it's a phenomenally efficient filter of quality information and thinking.

I'm an experimental physics PhD student. I'm not much of a coder, but I'd probably consider myself a hardware hacker. I'm interested in finding a job in high-tech product R&D and enjoy learning about the startup community.
Non technical startup founder. Used to write PHP for a living and now I spend all day in (interesting) meetings.
I'm a stay-at-home dad. Last year I was a math teacher. The last time I worked a "tech" job was in grad school nearly a decade ago, assisting my department's IT manager.

I'm here because I like to learn about things. Not just products/services that I found out about from here that helped me in life (airbnb, hipmunk, leaky, freelancer) but simply ideas (I've learned relevant things about religion, games, science, warfare, education, driving, the basic income, and so on.)

I'm also here because my wife is a hacker and I like to be aware of what she's reading and thinking about.

There are many definitions of hacker: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Hacker_Manifesto

Wark defines hacking 'as an “abstraction”, the construction of different and unrelated matters into previously unrealized relations. Hackers produce new conceptions, perceptions and sensations hacked out of raw data. Everything and anything is a code for the hacker to hack, be it “programming, language, poetic language, math, or music, curves or colourings” [3] and once hacked, they create the possibility for new things to enter the world. What they create is not necessarily “great”, or “even good”, but new, in the areas of culture, art, science, and philosophy or “in any production of knowledge where data can be extracted from it.” Wark argues that (new) information comes from the hack. It doesn’t matter if you are a computer programmer, a philosopher, a teacher, a musician, a physicist, if you essentially produce new information - it’s a hack [1]. In this sense, hackers are creators and they bring new ideas into the world. The aim of the book is to highlight the origins, purpose and efforts by this emerging hacker class, who produce new; concepts, perceptions, and sensations out of the stuff of raw data.'

I've literally never heard a musician , mathematician or engineer refer to themselves as a "hacker" or anyone outside of computing for that matter.
A jazz musician might easily fit the definition of a hacker, but still might be more likely to describe him/herself as "a cat who can blow".
Neither have I, but I find myself recognizing hacker traits in musicians, mathematicians, lawyers, chefs, spangers, legislators, tech recruiters, modern bohemians, and grant writers.

These are all people that reason about systems. The systems and the tools vary, but the process doesn't.

But is it reasonable to term it "hacking", there's a certain arrogance in trying to apply one's own wording in a way that suggests a particular type of person (a particular type of programmer) as the ideal.
When lawyers start coming up to us and saying "I see what you did there!", let's ask them what they call it. :) Meanwhile...

Actually, the closest term I've come across personally is "systems thinking". (A phrase with its own splendid, storied history, by the way!)