>If you don’t think that being a white, straight male grants you undeniable and unassailable privilege in modern Western society, then you need to get your head out of your MRA ass.
laughing at the level of racism and sexism in this post.
This is so simple minded I doubt it could even have a chance on reddit.
Another case of being forced to euphemize by the fear of the culture you're trying to critique. It's men. "Fuckwad" "douchebag" are code for men. Why can't we just name the problem? Because we fear that those same men, who naturally lack the critical thinking skills to the sufficient extent to be able to come back with "b-b-but not all men"?
Men trying to help get stuck in the details of events like this, when it's ultimately just men attacking and hating women. That's obviously the problem. It can start to be solved by listening honestly to women who think more deeply about the problem than we men do. These women usually call themselves "feminists". Suspend your disbelief and pay more honest attention to this intellectually and positionally diverse group of women if you actually want to learn how to help.
"It can start to be solved by listening honestly to women who think more deeply about the problem than we men do."
Gender swap that, and see how it sounds.
(In more detail: no-one, man or woman, is going to fix this problem by tacitly accepting collectivism, because it is in no small part a problem caused by collectivism).
What? Women are in a different position from men here, so "swapping the genders" just makes it a statement I wouldn't endorse. What "collectivism" are you talking about? What "problem" are you talking about?
It was possibly just loose use of language, but by lumping all men into one group, you're falling into the same mental trap as the misogynist fuckwads.
@duncan_bayne - men exist as a *class of human beings. This is how social systems work. This is what I mean -- if people were familiar with feminist thought there wouldn't be these basic misunderstandings. Try:
Yes, yes they do. I think we're in complete agreement there. I am married to a pilot, and I've seen some shit that would turn your hair white that is seen as perfectly normal in that industry.
The thing is, the fundamental epistemological problem that underlies those systems of oppression is that people think of people as 'male', 'female', 'husband', 'wife', 'employer', 'employee' etc. first, and as individuals second. This is the collectivism of which I speak.
It's also a gripe I have with a lot of feminist thought. It's not that I haven't read it, it's that I disagree with a great deal of it, both in terms of philosophical underpinning and also execution. Here's an excerpt from Dworkin's article:
"The shame of men in front of women is, I think, an appropriate response both to what men do do and to what men do not do. I think you should be ashamed."
To quote Rand:
"The worst guilt is to accept an unearned guilt."
Men who are not, themselves, rapists should not feel guilty because other men are.
"There are strong strands of collectivism in today's feminism. These strands of thought treat men and women as hostile classes. Some infamously ascribe radically different thought patterns to men and women as such. Objectivism rejects group-think of this sort, and holds that each individual should be judged based on character, actions, and ability, not merely on the person's sex. Rand called herself a "male chauvinist" because she admired the many great men of history, to whom all of civilization owes so much. Her rhetoric was chosen in response to collectivist feminists and racists who denigrated "dead white men" as such."
Editedtoaddagain: re. the being married to a pilot thing ... I've worked as ground crew while she was flying tourists around on joy flights. I have been treated as the pilot while dressed in jeans and a hi-vis jacket, while she is in full uniform with gold on the shoulders. I have also seen her - again, dressed in full pilots regalia - been asked by prospective passengers whether she's ever been up in the helicopter herself. And this is the relatively mild stuff; she also once had a prospective employer tell her "sure, send in your CV, but I should warn you that when hiring we have an unofficial no chicks policy." Sadly it's not just the IT industry.
I made the following point in the comments, but it's still in the moderation queue ...
=====
Pretty much spot on – upvoted on HN FWIW. One gripe:
“The next time that you feel like saying ‘not all men…’, keep in mind – it takes ONE asshole to make a comment that is so foul and disgusting … And have the courage to call out douchebag behavior when you see it for what it is.”
So the thing is: claiming that [all | most] men are [potential] rapists is every bit as much douchebag behaviour as all the mysoginistic shit you’re (rightly) criticising, and is in no small part based upon the same flawed philosophy as the people threatening female game developers with rape.
That said, there are constructive and destructive ways to point it out. “You know, by saying that, you’re behaving in the same way as [fuckwad in question].”
But, and this is worth bearing in mind: in the same way that douchebag men are actually (as you point out) pretty rare, so are douchebag women.
>in the same way that douchebag men are actually (as you point out) pretty rare
"One in four men admitted raping a woman once in their life according to a report from United Nations. The study was conducted through interviewing 10,000 men aged between 18 and 49-years-old in Asia-Pacific region - Bangladesh, China, Cambodia, Indonesia, Sri Lanka and Papua New Guinea. Authors for the research said that the findings may not represent the entire Asia and Pacific Region but those men interviewed for the study are representation of a good demographic match for the countries studied." - http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/505173/20130911/rape-united-n...
Why are you assuming I live in the US? I'm Australian, and our reported levels of rape are - fortunately - many orders of magnitude lower than 12.5% of the population, at around 29 per 100,000. Obviously not all rapes are reported, but I think it's fair to say that Australia has less of a rape problem than those countries.
That has to be one of the most shocking statistics I have ever seen, regardless of the region of choice. As in, I don't think I have ever seen a number of a social metric that was so much higher than what I'd have guessed. (Though certain famine statistics and historical records for a few diseases are in the same ball park.)
15 comments
[ 2.5 ms ] story [ 38.5 ms ] threadlaughing at the level of racism and sexism in this post. This is so simple minded I doubt it could even have a chance on reddit.
Men trying to help get stuck in the details of events like this, when it's ultimately just men attacking and hating women. That's obviously the problem. It can start to be solved by listening honestly to women who think more deeply about the problem than we men do. These women usually call themselves "feminists". Suspend your disbelief and pay more honest attention to this intellectually and positionally diverse group of women if you actually want to learn how to help.
Gender swap that, and see how it sounds.
(In more detail: no-one, man or woman, is going to fix this problem by tacitly accepting collectivism, because it is in no small part a problem caused by collectivism).
It was possibly just loose use of language, but by lumping all men into one group, you're falling into the same mental trap as the misogynist fuckwads.
http://xkcd.com/385/
You just did that, just the other way around.
Oppression by Marilyn Frye - http://www.calstatela.edu/faculty/tbettch/Frye,%20Oppression...
White Privilege and Male Privilege by Peggy McIntosh - http://www.iub.edu/~tchsotl/part2/McIntosh%20White%20Privile...
A Woman’s Worst Nightmare by Mary Dickson - http://www.pbs.org/kued/nosafeplace/articles/nightmare.html
Hers; The Smurfette Principle - http://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/07/magazine/hers-the-smurfett...
What it’s like being a teen girl - http://sodisarmingdarling.tumblr.com/post/34106027759/what-i...
Doing Gender by Candace West; Don H. Zimmerman - http://blog.lib.umn.edu/clar0514/academic/west%20and%20zimme...
‘I’m not a pilot, I’m a pilot’s wife,’ says 3 yr old girl - http://reelgirl.com/2013/11/im-not-a-pilot-im-a-pilots-wife-...
“Is my son smart?” “Is my daughter skinny?” Google Searches Reveal Parents’ Gender Biases - http://rebeccahains.wordpress.com/2014/01/20/is-my-son-smart...
Andrea Dworkin: I Want a Twenty-Four-Hour Truce During Which There Is No Rape - http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/WarZoneChaptIIIE.htm...
The thing is, the fundamental epistemological problem that underlies those systems of oppression is that people think of people as 'male', 'female', 'husband', 'wife', 'employer', 'employee' etc. first, and as individuals second. This is the collectivism of which I speak.
It's also a gripe I have with a lot of feminist thought. It's not that I haven't read it, it's that I disagree with a great deal of it, both in terms of philosophical underpinning and also execution. Here's an excerpt from Dworkin's article:
"The shame of men in front of women is, I think, an appropriate response both to what men do do and to what men do not do. I think you should be ashamed."
To quote Rand:
"The worst guilt is to accept an unearned guilt."
Men who are not, themselves, rapists should not feel guilty because other men are.
Edited to add: there's a great article at http://www.atlassociety.org/feminism-and-objectivism on the Objectivist position on feminism:
"There are strong strands of collectivism in today's feminism. These strands of thought treat men and women as hostile classes. Some infamously ascribe radically different thought patterns to men and women as such. Objectivism rejects group-think of this sort, and holds that each individual should be judged based on character, actions, and ability, not merely on the person's sex. Rand called herself a "male chauvinist" because she admired the many great men of history, to whom all of civilization owes so much. Her rhetoric was chosen in response to collectivist feminists and racists who denigrated "dead white men" as such."
Edited to add again: re. the being married to a pilot thing ... I've worked as ground crew while she was flying tourists around on joy flights. I have been treated as the pilot while dressed in jeans and a hi-vis jacket, while she is in full uniform with gold on the shoulders. I have also seen her - again, dressed in full pilots regalia - been asked by prospective passengers whether she's ever been up in the helicopter herself. And this is the relatively mild stuff; she also once had a prospective employer tell her "sure, send in your CV, but I should warn you that when hiring we have an unofficial no chicks policy." Sadly it's not just the IT industry.
=====
Pretty much spot on – upvoted on HN FWIW. One gripe:
“The next time that you feel like saying ‘not all men…’, keep in mind – it takes ONE asshole to make a comment that is so foul and disgusting … And have the courage to call out douchebag behavior when you see it for what it is.”
So the thing is: claiming that [all | most] men are [potential] rapists is every bit as much douchebag behaviour as all the mysoginistic shit you’re (rightly) criticising, and is in no small part based upon the same flawed philosophy as the people threatening female game developers with rape.
That said, there are constructive and destructive ways to point it out. “You know, by saying that, you’re behaving in the same way as [fuckwad in question].”
But, and this is worth bearing in mind: in the same way that douchebag men are actually (as you point out) pretty rare, so are douchebag women.
=====
"One in four men admitted raping a woman once in their life according to a report from United Nations. The study was conducted through interviewing 10,000 men aged between 18 and 49-years-old in Asia-Pacific region - Bangladesh, China, Cambodia, Indonesia, Sri Lanka and Papua New Guinea. Authors for the research said that the findings may not represent the entire Asia and Pacific Region but those men interviewed for the study are representation of a good demographic match for the countries studied." - http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/505173/20130911/rape-united-n...