Ask HN: Toxic startup enviroment, need advice
2.5yrs ago I started working for this startup. Not my first so I am cognizant about the risks and what it takes out of you. Few months after I started a licensing deal fell through so I volunteered to take a pay cut with the understanding we were going to go all out until profitability. We went all out, but the founders(Fs) didn't do any sales or marketing for 9 months, so yeah. Then they promised things were changing and they would really step it up in. 6 months later, we are growing pitifully & the story is the same. After seeing Fs make the same mistakes every 6 months, I decided to leave. As a core dev is hard to replace in 2 weeks, I gave them 4 months of notice. They didn't hire anyone. So, I gave them 4 more months. Yup. But I really wanted to do right by them :( During this, I was validating startup ideas. I moved forward with one and, when pressed about my plans, told Fs. A week later, in a 4 hour meeting, they tried to convince me to build it for them saying they can sell and market it. I refused. A week later, they offered cofounder role. I declined. Now, they want to pursue it and claim it was their idea the whole time, that "the lawyers would have to decide" whether non-compete would apply. I'm not worried about competition. Rather, I feel extremely betrayed. After trusting them & sweating blood for them, they pull this shit. And, the prospect of a possible lawsuit isn't great. I don't want to rage quit this week as a) I told them Dec, b) savings: additional money is nice, not a requirement. But, I am not sure I can stick it till Dec and if that would just strengthen their non-compete argument.
1. Airing dirty laundry is not good, but the idea Fs are going scot-free with such despicable behavior gnaws at me. Should I name and shame them? FWIW other employees are willing to back me up.
2. Should I quit asap and not honor what I told them? Would that be stooping to their level or just what they deserve?
3. Why must people be dicks?
20 comments
[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 43.0 ms ] threadSecondly, if your working relationship with the founders is "let the lawyers decide" you don't owe them anything, much less any more time out of your life.
Thirdly, staying on longer would give them room to maneuver you into a bad legal position with respect to the non-compete clause. If you give final notice of leaving and the next day the company unexpectedly pivots to your idea, you're left in a bit of a jam. Sooner might well be better than later in this case.
What you decide to do is ultimately up to you. But be wary of being manipulated into another 4 month notice period, and another, and another. Your time is the most important resource you have (up there with your health); be wary of wasting it.
Since I posted the question I took time to evaluate the situation and came to pretty much your conclusions :) So, I've bought a plane ticket for a week long vacation in October and I plan to have quit by then.
Thanks for taking the time to comment.
Here is what you should do starting right now.
1. Document everything that you still can. Emails, conversations, records. Get everything and put it into a folder. You will need this in case something comes up later.
2. Quit tomorrow.
3. Go pursue your startup idea. If you need more savings and want to build some up, do some freelance projects which I'm sure others on here would be happy to point you towards. You already said additional money is not a requirement so there should be nothing stopping you from wasting your time.
Again, you owe them nothing.
1. On it. I've gotten emails forwarded to my personal account and d no personal projects on work laptops or time. Atleast I've got that going for me.
2. :( Can't pull that off right now.
3. I hadn't thought of this. Or rather, had discounted it because it would lead to a lack of focus. However, too many people have now suggested this for me to ignore. Thanks :)
Why can't you quit? You already gave your notice. If they are not trying to replace you, that's their problem, not yours. If you are short of money, can you get another job first, do some saving and pursue your idea on the side?
I've thought a lot about this since I posted this question. At the end of the day, I've given them notice till X. So, it doesn't sit right by me to not honor that :(
Yeah, it's naive, but I think getting out of this mess without devolving to their level means something to me.
If you're going to start a company, you're going to have to make hard decisions and have conviction. If you can't do even this when it's quite clear that it's negatively affecting you, then please don't start a company and just find another job.
Why would you stay at a place that you didn't like for 4 months? That was silly. So was telling them your business ideas. Honestly, you've got nobody to blame but yourself here.
Non-competes aren't even valid in California so just move there and start your social network for dogs.
:)
Thanks for taking the time to comment.
I am loyal and think taking a few months out to help people transition isn't that big a deal.
But really, it's a trait I have that makes me a good employee, but also opens me up to this sort of exploitation.
Live and learn.
http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/how-the-other...
Ironically, using a sample size of 2 companies to make sweeping generalizations about "the social status of software engineers" indicates the author is not cut out for data science. Anyone who would rely on anecdotes and tiny sample sizes to draw such strong conclusions should stay away from statistics.
You do not "need" to give 2 weeks. You are free to leave immediately or negotiate a mutually agreeable separation arrangement.
There's your mistake. It's one thing to keep your ideas separate from your work (there are contracts that insist that any idea you have belongs to who you work for), but it's another to tell your company about your ideas. As soon as you tell them, they can make an argument about who owns the idea.
That said, they sound pretty incompetent. If you're serious about your idea, you probably need a lawyer at this point. If not, cut your losses, be done with them, and move on. I can't actually give you advice on your idea, it might be good to let that go as well if you want to avoid future legal problems. If you think it's worth fighting for, get a lawyer.
In the future, keep your ideas separate from your work if you're entrepreneurial. By that I mean only work on them in your own time on your own equipment, including your smart phone.
Thanks for your feedback. And, I mean it when I say this: I appreciate you taking the time to comment and reinforce my "fuck that was stupid" moment. Live and learn I guess.
OP should probably take sensible precautions like saving all his e-mails (off of company machines!) and staying on friendly terms with other employees who might one day be called as witnesses. But I wouldn't recommend "ragequitting", just go politely.
I've been meticulous about saving emails and am on great terms with the other employees.
As you recommend, I'm swallowing my bile and quitting politely, but firmly.
Thanks for taking the time to comment. It's unanimous: I've been stupid and the only thing to do now is damage control and move on with life :)
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I understand what you mean. While I'm going to still be loyal until given reason not to, the main thing this experience has taught me is that you can't wait too long for other people to help themselves.
Sometimes being loyal/being there is just enabling. I guess the art is in figuring out when you are supporting vs enabling :)
My recommendation:
1. Leave now. Give them two week as a final notice and leave.
2. Reach out to your personal and professional network with a clear ask for some freelance introductions to hold you over for a few months.
3. Put the rest of your time into you own idea and build it.
4. Don't worry about non-competes. They're nearly impossible to enforce, and it sounds like these guys won't have the stones to support any kind of legal fight past a stern letter from a cheap lawyer.