Gamergate is insanely obnoxious, but I'm curious exactly what functionality the author wants out of these social networks. Are Twitter and Facebook supposed to ban people who tweet "#FeministsAreUgly"?
No one cares if anyone posts a #FeministsAreUgly hashtag. What people actually have to read are things like:
"I'd do a lot worse than rape you. I've just got out of prison and would happily do more time to see you berried [sic]. #10feetunder."
"I will find you, and you don't want to know what I will do when I do. You're pathetic. Kill yourself. Before I do. #Godie."
Caroline Criado Perez was not complaining about one or two people sending a few dozens of messages that were a bit mean. She was inundated with thousands of messages, from many people, threatening sexual violence and death. One man was sending 50 messages per hour, over about 12 hours. Another woman sent hundreds of messages. Perez's "crime"? She campaigned to have a woman on British banknotes after the Bank of England phased out Elizabeth Fry on the £5 - leaving no women on the banknotes.
What tech needs are better models of user intention, which could admit algorithms or allow one to prove the hardness of algorithmically doing something. You can't ask for an algorithm if you can't rigorously define the problem.
"This rage-ful, over-entitled, Internet-connected fraternity of kids share one core skill: playing games. Little wonder, then, they have proved so expert at driving a toxic hellbrew of misogyny into the mainstream media — and all over social media — by gaming popular online channels using a sophisticated playbook of disruption."
So many lies and misrepresentations in such a short space. GamerGate has nothing to do with misogyny, it's about ethics in game journalism. There has been almost NO coverage of the other side by the mainstream media so if there's any toxic hellbrew in there, it's been carried by the anti-GG people. GamerGate stands for dialogue, inclusivity, ethics and transparency because of the reprehensible behaviour of some game journalists and individuals connected with them. There is absolutely no evidence connecting the movement with death threats made and even if there was, you cannot judge the core by the fringe. If that were true then we could judge the entire anti-GG side by Zoe Quinn who is a manipulative, hypocritical sociopath who has done a great deal of harm to women in gaming.
And as for gaming online channels? It works both ways.
> GamerGate has nothing to do with misogyny, it's about ethics in game journalism
Which is why the targets are overwhelmingly women, I'm sure.
> There has been almost NO coverage of the other side by the mainstream media
People tend not to be interested overmuch in hearing what the side brandishing the rape and death threats thinks.
> GamerGate stands for dialogue, inclusivity, ethics and transparency
I have never seen the causes of "inclusivity" or "dialogue" furthered by threats of physical violence.
> because of the reprehensible behaviour of some game journalists and individuals connected with them
[citation needed]
> There is absolutely no evidence connecting the movement with death threats made
Well, except for how the death threats keep landing on people who are at the top of GG's list of targets. What an incredible coincidence.
> Zoe Quinn who is a manipulative, hypocritical sociopath
Gosh, I cannot possibly understand how anyone could think GG is misogynistic or disrespectful, when you are always so careful to use measured, even-handed language.
The crazy death threat people are 4channers. They're not actual people concerned about video game journalism.
The real problem is people don't realize that Anyone can call themself a gamer gate activist, or a feminist, or anonymouse, or al quada.. They don't need to have any kind of affiliation or share any views. and this happens online more than in person due to only having a virtual presence.
One might suggest that a movement that refuses to police itself is deliberately courting such plausible deniability. [1] Or one might mention all of the people with documented links to both harassment and the hashtag.[2]
> They're not actual people concerned about video game journalism.
I agree with you! Pity that so many of them seem to keep saying that they are concerned with journalism, instead of just admitting what they are doing.
> One might suggest that a movement that refuses to police itself is deliberately courting such plausible deniability.
Perhaps you didn't hear about the time when someone created a new board on 8chan specifically to harass Brianna Wu, and the Leaders of Gamergate from the /gg/ board went and flooded the new board with nonsense until mods woke up and took care of the problem.
Or when they tracked twitter attacks on Anita Sarkeesian to a journalist in Brazil...
Seriously, the standards you are trying to hold GamerGate to are completely and utterly ridiculous.
> Gosh, I cannot possibly understand how anyone could think GG is misogynistic or disrespectful, when you are always so careful to use measured, even-handed language.
Valid criticism is not misogyny or even disrespect. I stated facts:
1. Zoe Quinn is manipulative and abusive. Source? Her own words on the Zoe post. Good analysis here:
I thought this was about ethics in game journalism? I can't imagine why you'd still be talking about Zoe Quinn. After all, she wasn't involved in anything remotely resembling "journalistic corruption". [1]
I also think that taking the words of an ex at face value is something very different from "her own words".
You can't imagine? When it's right there in front of you? I said if you want to judge the core by the fringe then you could judge the entire anti-GG side by Zoe Quinn's actions. smacktoward objected to my description of ZQ so I backed it up.
"After all, she wasn't involved in anything remotely resembling "journalistic corruption""
Riiight. So her relationships with the five guys who just happen to be senior games journalists is a lie is it? The leaked emails of the Game Journo Pros mailing list is just a figment of my imagination is it? The mass censorship at Reddit, Kotaku, 4Chan, RPS and Polygon didn't happen did it?
"I also think that taking the words of an ex at face value is something very different from "her own words"."
You're an idiot. He provides specific proof on the very first page that the logs aren't doctored. Neither has she denied a word because, well, she can't.
> So her relationships with the five guys who just happen to be senior games journalists is a lie is it?
Yep. The claims are a combination of false and irrelevant. [1][2][3][4][5][6] Not to mention that Depression Quest was getting plenty of coverage long before the alleged relationships.
> The leaked emails of the Game Journo Pros mailing list is just a figment of my imagination is it?
Perhaps you could explain to me why the list has any significance? I don't see any relevance.
> The mass censorship at Reddit, Kotaku, 4Chan, RPS and Polygon didn't happen did it?
Moderators deleting threads that go against the terms of service sounds pretty typical. What makes this any different?
> You're an idiot. He provides specific proof on the very first page that the logs aren't doctored. Neither has she denied a word because, well, she can't.
Let me take a step back here and ask: why does it matter? Even if the logs aren't doctored (which the video doesn't actually demonstrate at all) or taken out of context (ditto) what difference does it make? You seem to be claiming that a messy breakup justifies sending death threats to completely unrelated people. Perhaps you'd like to clarify?
> You seem to be claiming that a messy breakup justifies sending death threats to completely unrelated people.\
No, you are the one saying he's saying that. And it's a subtle and dishonest, not to mention rude way of shifting the goalposts.
There's this narrative that Zoe Quinn was attacked for being a female game developer just for being a female in the games industry oh the horror you better not be a female in the games industry or you are gonna get death threats to from angry male gamers in the gaming community for nothing but being a female trying to make games. Misogyny is everywhere especially in gaming.
To counter that narrative, people point out that she got a lot of negative attention for what she did, or was alleged to have done, and the most extreme negative backlash was reprehensible. In other words, it wasn't because she was a woman. That she was female may have influenced the nature of some of the backlash, but not the backlash itself or how extreme they got.
Idiots say "well I guess she deserved the death threats then?" No, the point was to debunk the stupid narrative about how women aren't safe on the internet or in the gaming community, not to discuss the finer points of what consequences Zoe did or didn't deserve for what she has done.
Note how Phil Fish quickly faded into the background, even though he was harassed as badly as Quinn. That's because he doesn't fit the poor victimized women story.
"Perhaps you could explain to me why the list has any significance? I don't see any relevance."
The _leaked emails_ of the Game Journo Pros mailing list, not the list itself. That's what I said. In them you can see Ben Kuchera putting pressure on other members to remove mentions of ZQ, Kyle Orland saying he would love to use his platform to support ZQ, Jason Schreier defending Nathan Grayson and so on and so forth. Then, starting August the 28th, a dozen major gaming sites put out almost exactly the same story that "Gamers are dead" in a 24-hour period basically telling their readers to get lost. Collusion and corruption exemplified. The Escapist is not at all comfortable with this and rewrites its policies and fesses up. Good on them. By the way, linking to articles written by members of this list and their sympathisers isn't going to impress me. It's what we have a problem with in the first place: biased, inaccurate coverage.
"Moderators deleting threads that go against the terms of service sounds pretty typical. What makes this any different?"
a) that they weren't anything to do with terms of service and b) the vastness of the scope. Examples: a thread on Reddit with 20 000 comments was deleted. 4chan suffered a mass exodus to 8chan because of deletions. Kotaku, RPS and Polygon refuse to allow any sort of discussion at ALL of this. This is what GamerGate supporters have a problem with.
"You seem to be claiming that a messy breakup justifies sending death threats to completely unrelated people. Perhaps you'd like to clarify?"
Certainly. For a start, let me say again: there is NO evidence connecting GamerGate supporters to death threats. None. The threats that were sent to Anita Sarkeesian? No evidence of links to GamerGate. The threats sent to Brianna Wu? No evidence of links to GamerGate. In fact, she was the one that made the connection (on national TV no less) where there wasn't one. A big fight on Twitter always attracts malicious third parties and we have STRONG evidence that Something Awful and GNAA have been trolling BOTH sides with threats. It's what they do. Both Nero and KingofPol have received physical items in the mail: a syringe and a knife, and have laughed them off. But the professional victims of the other side immediately publicise them and say 'see? see? Look at these GamerGaters!'
As I write this, a prominent defender of GamerGate has just been SWATted. He's immediately reported it to the FBI. That's what you do when you get harassed. You go straight to the authorities. You don't go on tour about it.
> Which is why the targets are overwhelmingly women, I'm sure.
Its primary targets are Gamasutra, Polygon (Vox), Kotaku(Gawker), and Rock Paper Shotgun.
> People tend not to be interested overmuch in hearing what the side brandishing the rape and death threats thinks.
If I said you are brandishing rape and death threats right now, because of what someone else on twitter said two weeks ago, what would you think? That is the logic you are using and it's stupid.
15 comments
[ 0.20 ms ] story [ 13.3 ms ] thread"I'd do a lot worse than rape you. I've just got out of prison and would happily do more time to see you berried [sic]. #10feetunder."
"I will find you, and you don't want to know what I will do when I do. You're pathetic. Kill yourself. Before I do. #Godie."
Caroline Criado Perez was not complaining about one or two people sending a few dozens of messages that were a bit mean. She was inundated with thousands of messages, from many people, threatening sexual violence and death. One man was sending 50 messages per hour, over about 12 hours. Another woman sent hundreds of messages. Perez's "crime"? She campaigned to have a woman on British banknotes after the Bank of England phased out Elizabeth Fry on the £5 - leaving no women on the banknotes.
So many lies and misrepresentations in such a short space. GamerGate has nothing to do with misogyny, it's about ethics in game journalism. There has been almost NO coverage of the other side by the mainstream media so if there's any toxic hellbrew in there, it's been carried by the anti-GG people. GamerGate stands for dialogue, inclusivity, ethics and transparency because of the reprehensible behaviour of some game journalists and individuals connected with them. There is absolutely no evidence connecting the movement with death threats made and even if there was, you cannot judge the core by the fringe. If that were true then we could judge the entire anti-GG side by Zoe Quinn who is a manipulative, hypocritical sociopath who has done a great deal of harm to women in gaming.
And as for gaming online channels? It works both ways.
Which is why the targets are overwhelmingly women, I'm sure.
> There has been almost NO coverage of the other side by the mainstream media
People tend not to be interested overmuch in hearing what the side brandishing the rape and death threats thinks.
> GamerGate stands for dialogue, inclusivity, ethics and transparency
I have never seen the causes of "inclusivity" or "dialogue" furthered by threats of physical violence.
> because of the reprehensible behaviour of some game journalists and individuals connected with them
[citation needed]
> There is absolutely no evidence connecting the movement with death threats made
Well, except for how the death threats keep landing on people who are at the top of GG's list of targets. What an incredible coincidence.
> Zoe Quinn who is a manipulative, hypocritical sociopath
Gosh, I cannot possibly understand how anyone could think GG is misogynistic or disrespectful, when you are always so careful to use measured, even-handed language.
The real problem is people don't realize that Anyone can call themself a gamer gate activist, or a feminist, or anonymouse, or al quada.. They don't need to have any kind of affiliation or share any views. and this happens online more than in person due to only having a virtual presence.
> They're not actual people concerned about video game journalism.
I agree with you! Pity that so many of them seem to keep saying that they are concerned with journalism, instead of just admitting what they are doing.
[1] https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/gamergate-and-harassment
[2] https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/gamergate-is-a-misogy
Perhaps you didn't hear about the time when someone created a new board on 8chan specifically to harass Brianna Wu, and the Leaders of Gamergate from the /gg/ board went and flooded the new board with nonsense until mods woke up and took care of the problem.
Or when they tracked twitter attacks on Anita Sarkeesian to a journalist in Brazil...
Seriously, the standards you are trying to hold GamerGate to are completely and utterly ridiculous.
Valid criticism is not misogyny or even disrespect. I stated facts:
1. Zoe Quinn is manipulative and abusive. Source? Her own words on the Zoe post. Good analysis here:
http://theflounce.com/harassment-abuse-apologism-sanitizing-...
2. Zoe Quinn is hypocritical. Source? Her own words on the Zoe post. She says cheating is rape and then cheats. That's called hypocrisy.
3. Zoe Quinn is a sociopath. Boatloads of evidence. Doxxing, false flag attacks against WizardChan, or how about this Facebook post by her photographer: https://www.facebook.com/mallorie.nasrallah/posts/1015227432...
I also think that taking the words of an ex at face value is something very different from "her own words".
[1] http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2014/10/...
"After all, she wasn't involved in anything remotely resembling "journalistic corruption""
Riiight. So her relationships with the five guys who just happen to be senior games journalists is a lie is it? The leaked emails of the Game Journo Pros mailing list is just a figment of my imagination is it? The mass censorship at Reddit, Kotaku, 4Chan, RPS and Polygon didn't happen did it?
"I also think that taking the words of an ex at face value is something very different from "her own words"."
You're an idiot. He provides specific proof on the very first page that the logs aren't doctored. Neither has she denied a word because, well, she can't.
Yep. The claims are a combination of false and irrelevant. [1][2][3][4][5][6] Not to mention that Depression Quest was getting plenty of coverage long before the alleged relationships.
> The leaked emails of the Game Journo Pros mailing list is just a figment of my imagination is it?
Perhaps you could explain to me why the list has any significance? I don't see any relevance.
> The mass censorship at Reddit, Kotaku, 4Chan, RPS and Polygon didn't happen did it?
Moderators deleting threads that go against the terms of service sounds pretty typical. What makes this any different?
> You're an idiot. He provides specific proof on the very first page that the logs aren't doctored. Neither has she denied a word because, well, she can't.
Let me take a step back here and ask: why does it matter? Even if the logs aren't doctored (which the video doesn't actually demonstrate at all) or taken out of context (ditto) what difference does it make? You seem to be claiming that a messy breakup justifies sending death threats to completely unrelated people. Perhaps you'd like to clarify?
[1] http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive-been-asked-several-time...
[2] http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/a-90-second-guide-to-dete...
[3] http://www.dailydot.com/geek/zoe-quinn-depression-quest-gami...
[4] http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/zoe-quinns-depression...
[5] http://theflounce.com/gamergate-seem-understand-ethics-nearl...
[6] http://atomicovermind.tumblr.com/post/96903894299/greg-costi...
No, you are the one saying he's saying that. And it's a subtle and dishonest, not to mention rude way of shifting the goalposts.
There's this narrative that Zoe Quinn was attacked for being a female game developer just for being a female in the games industry oh the horror you better not be a female in the games industry or you are gonna get death threats to from angry male gamers in the gaming community for nothing but being a female trying to make games. Misogyny is everywhere especially in gaming.
To counter that narrative, people point out that she got a lot of negative attention for what she did, or was alleged to have done, and the most extreme negative backlash was reprehensible. In other words, it wasn't because she was a woman. That she was female may have influenced the nature of some of the backlash, but not the backlash itself or how extreme they got.
Idiots say "well I guess she deserved the death threats then?" No, the point was to debunk the stupid narrative about how women aren't safe on the internet or in the gaming community, not to discuss the finer points of what consequences Zoe did or didn't deserve for what she has done.
Note how Phil Fish quickly faded into the background, even though he was harassed as badly as Quinn. That's because he doesn't fit the poor victimized women story.
The _leaked emails_ of the Game Journo Pros mailing list, not the list itself. That's what I said. In them you can see Ben Kuchera putting pressure on other members to remove mentions of ZQ, Kyle Orland saying he would love to use his platform to support ZQ, Jason Schreier defending Nathan Grayson and so on and so forth. Then, starting August the 28th, a dozen major gaming sites put out almost exactly the same story that "Gamers are dead" in a 24-hour period basically telling their readers to get lost. Collusion and corruption exemplified. The Escapist is not at all comfortable with this and rewrites its policies and fesses up. Good on them. By the way, linking to articles written by members of this list and their sympathisers isn't going to impress me. It's what we have a problem with in the first place: biased, inaccurate coverage.
"Moderators deleting threads that go against the terms of service sounds pretty typical. What makes this any different?"
a) that they weren't anything to do with terms of service and b) the vastness of the scope. Examples: a thread on Reddit with 20 000 comments was deleted. 4chan suffered a mass exodus to 8chan because of deletions. Kotaku, RPS and Polygon refuse to allow any sort of discussion at ALL of this. This is what GamerGate supporters have a problem with.
"You seem to be claiming that a messy breakup justifies sending death threats to completely unrelated people. Perhaps you'd like to clarify?"
Certainly. For a start, let me say again: there is NO evidence connecting GamerGate supporters to death threats. None. The threats that were sent to Anita Sarkeesian? No evidence of links to GamerGate. The threats sent to Brianna Wu? No evidence of links to GamerGate. In fact, she was the one that made the connection (on national TV no less) where there wasn't one. A big fight on Twitter always attracts malicious third parties and we have STRONG evidence that Something Awful and GNAA have been trolling BOTH sides with threats. It's what they do. Both Nero and KingofPol have received physical items in the mail: a syringe and a knife, and have laughed them off. But the professional victims of the other side immediately publicise them and say 'see? see? Look at these GamerGaters!'
As I write this, a prominent defender of GamerGate has just been SWATted. He's immediately reported it to the FBI. That's what you do when you get harassed. You go straight to the authorities. You don't go on tour about it.
Its primary targets are Gamasutra, Polygon (Vox), Kotaku(Gawker), and Rock Paper Shotgun.
> People tend not to be interested overmuch in hearing what the side brandishing the rape and death threats thinks.
If I said you are brandishing rape and death threats right now, because of what someone else on twitter said two weeks ago, what would you think? That is the logic you are using and it's stupid.
> [citation needed]
http://yiannopoulos.net/2014/09/19/gamejournopros-zoe-quinn-...
> Well, except for how the death threats keep landing on people who are at the top of GG's list of targets. What an incredible coincidence.
Yeah, how incredible... except that threats are going both ways and it's only one side trying to turn it into a narrative about harassment.