HN Explorer

Ask HN: Would you join a trade union?

11 points by jeangenie ↗ HN
I have often wondered whether such a thing would be beneficial. Sometimes it does seem things have swung too far in employer's favor but are there better ways of asserting individual rights than this?

All opinions and discussions are welcome whether you agree or disagree.

13 comments

[ 2.2 ms ] story [ 35.0 ms ] thread
hcho
Trade unions make sense when the employer has disproportionate power over its employees. That's typically shallow employment markets with a single dominating employer.

Dev market in most places are efficient enough; so no I wouldn't.

hackerboos
Here in the UK the relationship between unions and business has always been hostile and unproductive and since the 1980s the unions in the UK have been stripped of any effective power.

I think if our unions were more like Germany's which have board representation and pay determined by collective bargaining - then I'd be more inclined to join.

Another difference between the UK and Germany is what happens to workers when technological innovation occurs. For example there have been strikes by the RMT union against driverless trains on London's underground.

Initially this appears to be counter-progressive, striking against what is an advancement in technology. In Germany these workers would be retrained so that their careers would not be destroyed. The UK does not retrain workers when they are made redundant.

jasonkester
No, of course not.

We're in the single best market for developer talent that has ever been, where a guy who is provably good at what he does can negotiate rates at double, triple, even 10X the going rate for a senior developer. In that light, what sane person would voluntarily pin himself to a Union-esque system where he is paid on a scale determined by seniority?

Ask a simple question, get a simple answer: The bottom 50%.

If you're provably bad at what you do, or are unable or unwilling to negotiate your way away from the middle/bottom of the pack then yes, maybe, a union might make sense. But leave the rest of us out of it.

It's just too good here. The last thing we want is some fool to come by and ruin it.

seanccox
That's not the only model for unionizing. I don't live in the US or work in tech, but from where I sit, the industry (in the US) appears to be advocating for the relaxation of visa restrictions to import cheaper talent. That seems like it would eventually erode salaries/conditions (if it hasn't already).

The market for tech employees looks great, to my untrained eyes, but I hear a lot of grumbling from my dev friends in the states that the salaries they are being offered are quite low. I'm not certain how to reconcile those data points. I wonder whether it would be wise for devs to consider unionizing now. It certainly makes more sense to play that card when the industry has limited power over the labor force. If power shifts in favor of industry, it will probably be too late to do anything about it.

TheCoelacanth
Hollywood actors and NFL players have essentially 100% union participation. That hasn't prevented the top performers from negotiating exceptionally high pay.

There is no reason to expect a union of software developers to rigidly follow the example of blue collar unions.

jpetersonmn
I wouldn't join a union, but I would donate money to a lobbying group that lobbied for tightening restrictions on visas. I understand getting a visa if you truly can't find the talent you're looking for in the US, but companies just do it for cheaper labor and are exploiting the system.
mrfusion
Here are some ideas I'd like to see a union fix for our industry:

Agesism in tech

Non payment for employees or contractors

Protect programmers refusing tasks on ethical grounds

Establish ethical standards

Better working conditions - quiet offices, not open floor plans

Working from home when practical

minimum vacation time (not pooled with sick days)

No 2 day exploding offers

Dignity in job interviews

(Can you guys think of any more?)

sarciszewski
This sounds like the exact sort of question that tptacek would have a lot of insight to offer.
JSeymourATL
We live in an age of disinter-mediation.

Adding a new middle-man into the talent/employer mix sucks value out of that relationship. You can always assert your rights by employing your talents elsewhere.

27182818284
No. I'm pro-union, but I also know how slow unions can be. I enjoy the speed at which technology is moving and I think that adding in unions, although it would add a host of great qualities, would also bring about undesirable problems.

I can't reconcile a Bar-like association or a trade union with the wonderful stories of things like Apple starting in a garage or Facebook by a student, or the super coders like RMS programming a new gigantic feature to Emacs in a 10-hour sprint.

MalcolmDiggs
It'd be nice if freelance tech folks could pool their resources and get group health-care rates... but I'm not sure if a full-on union would be needed for that.