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Ask HN: My 56-year-old father is a developer having a tough time finding a job

318 points by luisivan ↗ HN
Hi everyone,

My father, who is a 56-years old software engineer and introduced me to software development, got unemployed some months ago and is having an extremely tough time getting a job here in Spain.

In his whole life he has worked as a developer, businessmen and executive at various companies such as Xerox. However, he went the developer path these past decades instead of moving on to something more 'senior oriented' such as being a project manager.

He has been always learning new stuff, so right now he has a MongoDB certification and is totally fluent in Django. But most of the companies he applies to just see his age and step back. And I'm also worried because here in Spain large companies are seeing the crisis and the really high youth unemployment as an opportunity to hire youngsters under really poor conditions, and they can actually hire five young developers for the price of one senior dev.

So I'm not really sure how I can help him, I actually know a lot of people in the startup ecosystem but startups usually want people in their 20s and 30s. I have also read a lot of posts regarding 'old developers', and he has read them as well.

He has a fresh mindset, wants to move to another city/country if it's required, and has tons of experience, so it's very hard for me to see him having this tough time... Any tip would be very helpful

Thanks a lot

231 comments

[ 2.3 ms ] story [ 227 ms ] thread
atlantic
Your father should try to find development work online. Nobody cares about your age, or even your qualifications. It's all about your track record and your capacity to get things done. It takes a while to get your first few gigs, but once you build up a small client base, work goes smoothly.
luisivan
He had a local client base, but he started to loose all of them because of the crisis... so I should probably suggest him to start working with clients from another countries, totally agree. Thanks!
nlh
Have any good resources to suggest? (aside from oDesk, where I sense it's become a race to the bottom price-wise.)
atlantic
Don't think in terms of offering the lowest price. When you are selling your services online, price also tells the client how much your work is worth. Never compete on price, just ask for whatever you think is fair, given your knowledge and experience. I work on oDesk, and I've always obtained well-paid work. Just a question of patience and establishing a reputation.
collyw
Getting a reputation would seem to invove doing at least a few projects at a crappy rate from what I gather.
atlantic
You can start off at, say, half your target rate, and/or on smaller projects than you would usually take on. Once you have two or three decent recommendations under your belt, then your online career will take off.
johntaek
You don't have any contact info in your profile. I would like to run some questions past you, if you have the time?
codegeek
What about freelancing ? Try and connect with people you know who might be looking for a developer like him. If he knows Python/Django, I am sure there are lot of freelance opportunities. Also ask him to post in the Monthly HN thread of freelancers.
luisivan
Yeah, that's what he's trying to do, but at least here in Spain both Python and MongoDB are still considered as 'young technologies for startups' that aren't usually seen in the enterprise or in the normal freelance jobs.

Anyway, thanks for the tip about the Monthly HN thread - he will definitely post there :)

[dead] Bustard
Then maybe he should focus on learning skills that are marketable toward the enterprise sector?
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MrBuddyCasino
That advice is generally valid for all devs. In a poll (sorry, can't find the source right now) the older devs that were freelancers were the most happy ones. The market valued their experience, while employees in companies would be punished for their age.

I guess owning the customer relationship is key here.

jwaldrip
I would suggest he start contributing to open source. Write a fea utility libraries or even a few general purpose applications. Being able to point people to a github with work to show off some skills can be integral to how employers view your technical aptitude.
luisivan
He actually runs a free software association and is very active in the open source scene here, but yeah, I already said to him that he should contribute more on GitHub. Thanks!
informatimago
I'm all in favor of free(dom) software, but you still have to feed your family, and until farmers (1% of the population) and transporter (another few percentage of the population) can work and deliver food for $free, us programmers won't be able to provide (all) our software for $free either. Not counting the taxes that also have to be paid.

For this reason, I'm in favor of the universal revenue, lifetime income, citizen income, whatever you call it.

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velocitypsycho
Hopefully at that point the demographics of the industry will have smoothed out some.
luisivan
BTW I forgot to add it on the post, but this is his LinkedIn profile just in case https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=75046358
vonklaus
Maybe include his github/bitbucket profile instead of linked in.
jeffreyrogers
Not everyone works on open source projects.
luisivan
Yeap, he runs a free software association but he doesn't usual code on GitHub
vonklaus
I simply suggested that it might also be helpful to include a link to github or a repository where some work/project examples would be contained. It seems pretty reasonable to suggest that it might be a good way to showcase some Mongo projects or other things he is working on while teaching himself a few new pieces of technology.

Most coders have a much larger github repo than Linked In page. Guess everyone disagrees with this...

Jare
I visited that link but only see a minimal box with very little info:

    Software Architect & Developer
    Madrid Area, SpainInformation Technology and Services
    Current	Proyecto Asturix, Asturlibre
    Previous	MeetPays, Yestilo, UPTA España
    Education	10Gen
May want to correct that, and/or set up his own microsite as a first link of reference (GitHub pages is convenient if he is already using Github).

General situation in Spain is quite shitty and age / gender discrimination is unfortunately still rampant here. My advice would be to keep his eyes open but definitely look for options in UK / Germany.

luisivan
He's not currently using GitHub, but this is his personal webpage: http://cuende.net
[dead] Bustard
Maybe he should make it look a bit more professional and advertise his actual skills. It looks a bit too psychadelic as it is now.
aantix
Is he willing to move to San Francisco? Flightcar needs a fullstack Django dev.
luisivan
Hell yeah, he would actually love to live in another country :)
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steven2012
I'm not convinced that 56 is that old for companies, especially large ones. I'm not sure this is anything more than the current financial problems that Spain is experiencing. There is 25% unemployment and many banks have purportedly been teetering on collapse. There simply may not be jobs available for him in Spain, unfortunately.

His best bet is to move around in the EU, and go to a country that is willing to hire him. Place like UK, France are likely doing better than Spain is, and will probably have more jobs.

luisivan
Totally agree, the thing with countries like France is the language barrier. But he is fluent with English, so I may tell him to apply for UK jobs as well. Thanks!
wernercd
Tell him to learn another language. He is a developer after all. :)
shebson
Berlin may be worth considering as well. Opportunities for developers in Berlin are comparatively plentiful, and while it would be nice to know German if you live there, many tech companies in Berlin use English as the official language because employees come from so many places around the EU and the world.
luisivan
That's good to know, weren't aware of that
fadzlan
I think that will depend on the country you are working on.

I work in Malaysia, and by that age, you will have hard time finding work as a developer, since people are expecting you to start manage other people after a certain age.

The economics are different, most jobs here are based on projects, there is not much product work. Even if you get infinitely better over time, there is not much economic on leveraging the knowledge, especially if you are the only one on the team that can be that good.

Companies tend not to keep people long and people are keep moving on companies once projects are done, unless new projects are on the line.

Since the turnover rate is high, it will only make sense to keep thing simple, hence there is not much use of much advanced knowledge of anyone.

Because of that, up to a certain age, you very much reached the plateau of the max knowledge expected at the market. Keeping your development skill better may help you with your job, but it may not bring much to the negotiation table. That also means, it make sense to hire cheaper, younger talent if both have reach past the plateau, no matter which one is better. I am guessing this is a reason that people are expecting you to move "up" to the management ladder past the age.

jon2512chua
Hey there, I'm from Malaysia but have been studying and working in Australia the past 7 years. Am really keen to get to know some Malaysian devs and find out what the software industry condition is like back home. My email's me@jonathanchua.com if you're keen.
joshcrowder
Has he looked into finance? The UK banking scene is predominately in his age group (not that it matters). I'm 24 and worked in a team of people ranging from 30-60 i suppose. Also the sector is moving towards noSQL so it could be a good fit
luisivan
No, he has not! Didn't know about that, but I'll tell him to definitely look into UK banks and apply. It might be a great match as he knows all the old tech banks are based upon but also the new stuff they could use to make their systems better. Thanks for the insight :)
zerr
But uprooting and relocating to such a long distance, especially in his age (with regard to nostalgia, I mean..), is it comfortable for him?
boothead
Drop me a line, I work in a bank that's always looking for python devs. Contract rates in London are excellent too (easily > £500/day).

I'm ben <squiggly a> perurbis <dot> com

sgt101
Please tell me that the banks are not running Mongo?
boothead
Actually some are..... 10 gen have a very effective sales force I guess!
kokey
I worked at a pretty large bank (one of the biggest in the world and US) and I was working with MongoDB there. It was for a non critical reporting system for a configuration management tool.
davfigue
Better, I'd like a list of the banks using Mongo, I wouldn't want to risk having eventually consistent money balance during the day xD.
hyperliner
Banks are running MongoDB. The issue is not the industry, the issue is the problem they are trying to solve for in the app. I am sure banks have social applications too. Clearly, they won't be using it for financial transactions, as those probably are running on some mainframe.

Just like I hope that [your favorite social startup] does not have my user information in MongoDB. I don't want to lose my [points | badges | messages | likes | some other mundane detail that I cannot live without in my first world problem kind of way.

nt591
Where in Spain? The author of the Typus gem (a Ruby admin tool) lives in / freelances from Barcelona. Your dad may want to reach out to him for tips or advice.

https://github.com/fesplugas

luisivan
Oviedo, in the north. But he wants to move to Madrid/Barcelona. Oh cool, I see he's a senior as well, he will contact him and let's see :)
Mandatum
Unfortunately if he can't get a job that pays what he's asking for based on experience, he'll need to lower his rate. Outside of getting into a more "senior" orientated industry as joshcrowder has suggested, banking, finance, etc.

However Xerox itself is a very senior-orientated company, at least here in New Zealand. Has he reached out to his network to see if there are any positions going where he'll get a palm greased?

luisivan
That was really funny because he almost went to work to Xerox New Zealand when he was an executive. He has been trying to contact people from his network, but they have all changed from company, role and even industry (most of his contacts are from a couple decades ago)
Mandatum
Haha, well the work environment at Xerox here in New Zealand is actually really good. Too bad he didn't, I've met with a lot of their senior engineers (also at Konica) and they're extremely knowledgeable and friendly.

Unfortunately the pay would likely be why he turned it down.

luisivan
I think it was more the fact that he got married and had two child than the pay
Mandatum
Perfect reason to move here. :P
johnward
A coworker is doing a project in New Zealand and he loves it. It seems like the overall work environment in New Zealand is pretty good. When he told me the office didn't have free coffee a thought it was terrible. Until he explained you actually have time to take 15 minutes and go and buy a cup of coffee and take an actual "coffee break" a few times a day. That's kind of rare in the US. We usually get free coffee and enough time to walk over to the machine and back to your desk.
sosborn
>most of his contacts are from a couple decades ago

There is a big lesson here for everybody.

BenoitEssiambre
>"they can actually hire five young developers for the price of one senior dev"

I'm sure your dad's experience warrants a premium over others but anybody asking 5x what other devs make are going to have difficulty finding a job unless they have exceptional reputation, contacts and some luck.

luisivan
Well, the thing is not that he wants a premium salary, he actually is below market price, the problem is that there is too many people willing to work almost for free
smithkl42
Unfortunately, if lots of people are willing to work almost for free, then that's the market price. Sucks, though.
BenoitEssiambre
If there is a significant supply of people willing to work almost for free then market price is almost free.

This would also mean that the problem is not specific to his age but to the whole market for devs in your area.

ivanche
You have to consider that in some countries devs with no experience are willing to work for $300-400 a month...
FranOntanaya
In practice, you can get five young devs in Spain for any arbitrary number you may suggest. Many of them are still landlocked due to lower English proficiency and lack of valuable experience.
albertoavila
Drop me a line at my username @gmail.com if he would consider working for a startup based on SF but with its engineering team based on Guadalajara, México. We mostly do django, flask and angularjs and are not worried on getting someone with his experience on our team.
luisivan
Cool, he just mailed you :)
idontcache
Any chance I can shoot you an email too? I'm currently living in Guadalajara and looking for a new gig.
eitally
I'm hiring in Guadalajara, too, and would be happy to chat. :)
idontcache
awesome!, how should I contact you?
JoshTriplett
> I'm currently living in Guadalajara and looking for a new gig.

Drop me an email; we're hiring.

josu
I'm currently living in Mexico City. I'm surprised to see these many startups in Gudalajara, and yours are not certainly the first ones that I read about. Is Guadalajara becoming the Silicon Valley/SF of Mexico? What are the reasons to establish your startups there?
albertoavila
GDL has a thriving technical community and getting bigger every day, the founder of the startup for which i work for has an special interest on making Guadalajara Mexico's technological hub and wants to create success stories to bring more inversion and companies to the city.

I think a big advantage of Guadalajara over Mexico City is that it's a big enough city without the downsides of a huge metropolis, and is very affordable for engineers to live on pretty good areas, i bike about 10 minutes to work every day and love it.

notdang
We are hiring too (GDL). My username @gmail.com
mblevin
Remote work online is absolutely going to be his best bet, and it will pay better.

Check out:

https://weworkremotely.com/

http://hnhiring.com/ (search for "remote")

http://remotenation.co/blog/top-5-sites-for-finding-a-remote...

luisivan
That's really awesome, just showed it to him. He will try his best there, thanks a lot!
donnfelker
Ditto here. I was going to post the same thing. We Work Remotely is where its at. Also hit up ODesk and post on there for side work until full time work comes to play.
jtheory
This is what I did; I live in central France but work in the UK (fully remote; I fly up once or twice a year normally for social gatherings).

I found the company where I'm not CTO via HN "who's hiring" in 2010.

My colleagues are scattered as well, and I don't know their ages. I haven't even met several of them in person, though we know each others' voices quite well by now!

Note to OP: it's worth posting a bit more about your father's experience; we're only sort-of hiring (and so haven't been posting to the threads on HN) but we're not doing Django or MongoDB... so it's hard to say if we'd be interested. No hard in sending a CV my way, anyway (see profile).

informatimago
Here is a very meta solution, but it has to be considered. The problem of unemployment in Europe is directly linked to the European Union Treaty and the Euro ( google for TARGET2, ver por ejemplo http://tinyurl.com/salida-euro ). Entoncez, deberia promover la aplicación del artículo 50 del Tratado de la Unión Europea para salir del EU y resolver nuestros problemas.
_dps
I may be able to help. As a fellow Southern European (living in California), I make it a point to try to help people from that region with employment where I can.

I employ people (fully remotely) all over the world, and I help several other companies do the same (I assume basic professional/IT English). I'm not actively hiring right now, but I know a few companies who are.

My email is in my profile. Best of luck regardless.

luisivan
He just emailed you, thanks anyway :)
hardwaresofton
Does he have an up-to-date portfolio on what he's been working on? how are his side projects?

I think that's one of the most effective ways to convince someone that you haven't been resting on your laurels/are still innovating.

Also, he could take the chance (assuming you guys are not 3 steps from being on the curb) to try and bootstrap a small startup -- 56 years is a ton of experience, he has to know some pain points in some markets/communities that he can fix (maybe his own?) and charge people money for.

luisivan
That's an interesting point. He's been working for some months on his own project, that is an app for managing SMEs' salesforce. He has some experience on the enterprise so he really understands the problem.

The thing is that he is actually 3 steps from being on the curb (I live alone and am economically independent)

hardwaresofton
wow, sorry to hear that... that makes things way more difficult.

In that case, I would suggest that he applies to some of the bigger companies (like... real big), like HP/Dell, and market himself as a "tech-lead" -- it's got more hope of being near code than a project manager, and they value experience (and it's relatively easy to get into big companies)... Though I don't know which big companies are in spain (AFAIK that's where you are?)

terramars
not sure how helpful this will be since we won't have a ton of activity at first, but Hired is about to launch in the UK. we'll be taking candidates all over Europe although we'll only have a London office until sometime next year. if he's interested in moving up there, it's worth a shot. his skillset sounds relevant. http://join.hired.com/x/WF25Mp
luisivan
I just sent him the link to sign up :)
le_doude
I left Italy because I was looking at a future in which I would have been one of those 5 young devs that got hired instead of someone like your dad.

I am still young and am always relocating to find better projects and conditions, and its been working for me in this past 5 years. But now I know that there is also a lot of companies out there that are willing to hire people from across the globe and let them work remotely.

Those jobs are not easy to find, and are a small minority in the job market, but they are a beacon of hope for really good devs for which relocating is not an option. You (royal you ... which means potentially your dad) will generally get good money but might have to set up your own taxes, insurances and benefits, so it's not as hassle free as just being a normal employee.

Relocation, IMO, is always an option. Just speaking English is enough ... and English is not hard.

luisivan
Yeah, these kind of jobs are hard to find. Well, he is actually willing to relocate and he speaks English, so let's hope that works out
[dead] le_doude
I left Italy because I was looking at a future in which I would have been one of those 5 young devs that got hired instead of someone like your dad.

I am still young and am always relocating to find better projects and conditions, and its been working for me in this past 5 years. But now I know that there is also a lot of companies out there that are willing to hire people from across the globe and let them work remotely.

Those jobs are not easy to find, and are a small minority in the job market, but they are a beacon of hope for really good devs for which relocating is not an option. You (royal you ... which means potentially your dad) will generally get good money but might have to set up your own taxes, insurances and benefits, so it's not as hassle free as just being a normal employee.

Relocation, IMO, is always an option. Just speaking English is enough ... and English is not hard.

robomartin
He should start a business, it's easier than ever:

www.ProjectAmericanDream.com

Seriously, it could change his life in a major way.

heyutoo
You don't seem to have a history of spamming on HN so serious question, is this spam or are you being sincere?

If the former, given your experience on this site, I don't see how you can not know how wrong that is here.

robomartin
Not spam at all. On many points. I'm on my iPad so I'll be brief (hate typing on this thing)

On advising he start a business. Launching a successful business is the greatest liberator. For OP's father a nice lifestyle business would provide him with security as he gets older. What happens when he is 60, 70, 75. None of these people talking about helping will hire him. That's an illusion. My statement could be wrong in this particular case but it isn't for the overwhelming majority of older engineers.

If your comment is about the link. No, it isn't spam at all. The registration period is now closed so I can no longer provide links to the content. I personally know somewhere in the range of 50 people doing this program through being a mentor for a local meetup group for members. There's an annual conference for the program. I believe the next one is in February. Sir Richard Branson will be the keynote speaker. So, no, not a scam or spam. The fact that people down-voted it or dismissed it as such is only a reflection of HN bias. I hope the OP did get a chance to consider it before this was voted down to the bottom and the registration period ended.

tw04
He's worked as an executive, but never moved onto something more senior like a project manager????
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UK-AL
Would not say project manager is more 'senior'.

Over here, on most graduate schemes you can straight in as developer, consultant, project manager depending on what you chose. You usually start of as assistant project manager though.

It's a separate career path, not a senior role.

phillc73
In Europe the term "executive" when applied to a job title may mean something different to your perception. e.g. a Sales Executive is less senior than a Sale Manager.
luisivan
Yeap, he "downgraded" from executive to developer at one point, not a very smart decision but that's how things are...
mark_l_watson
I don't know if his will help:

I am 63, and I realize that I might not be as effective as I once was. What I do is offer a really low rate for telecommuting from home, and a much larger rate when working on site. So, for the last many years, I work cheaply from home and occasionally work on site (most recently at Google) for a much better consulting rate.

I don't know if your father has the financial flexibility to follow my plan, but it works for me.

e12e
Are you really less effective? I would assume that experience would be a big help in making a developer more effective? Or are you saying you may be as effective, but not as able to work the crazy hours that still seem to be far too common in the industry?
shams93
Yeah I get a lot more done in a shorter amount of time at 42 than 19, but the 20 hour days are really punishing, although offset by being able to work some of it remote, but for companies that chart success by sheer number of hours and face time clocked rather than projects completed these are in general a poor match for any effective developer.
sgt101
Don't work 20 hrs; that's 8hrs productive, 6 hrs at 50% and 6hrs probably making a big mess. Followed with 8hrs at 50 % and 12hrs making a big mess.

Have the courage to stop, sleep, eat and then come back with a fresh mind.

tdj
I'm 29, and I have already started feeling this. Just a few years ago, I could do 12-14h coding days sustainably, but now, anything above 11h sustained for weeks really shows in my output quality. Luckily, my overall productivity is still rising due to learning and experience, despite the degrading mental capabilities. I don't know what me at 35 will look like. I now see where the ageism comes from.

I find it incredibly sad that I even need to think about this. I regret that I even participated in this circus in the first place. I now only work for companies with don't have the ass-in-seats-for-80h policy. It's actually interesting that in startups where this works, people self-select and end up there. It's amazing how much more you can achieve if you can afford to take a step back, and not worry how you can run in circles even farther and faster.

mark_l_watson
This. I am willing to work fewer hours a week now. For most of my career, I set a maximum of 32 hours a week to work (not counting writing activities). I now work much less than that.

There is a lot of value in having someone who is always available. That is not me since I work in spurts, with long breaks. I think lack of always on, immediate availability is important for some projects, and I am unwilling to do that.

gridspy
Don't undersell your experience. You might not realise it, but occasionally an insight to use a particular approach might shave days to weeks off the development timescale.

It's not all about how fast you can hammer out bits and bytes.

snarfy
"Weeks of programming can save hours of planning."

This is where experience really counts. Younger developers who don't know any better will invent another logging framework, I guarantee it.

joslin01
Haha, I did this (created another logging framework) at 23. It was a plugin-driven Python framework and it was beautiful (at the time), but was it necessary? Most probably, certainly not. Ah but I loved writing it. Really made me a better coder.
ridgeguy
Like other responders, I question your statement "...I might not be as effective as I once was.".

Judgement based on long experience can be enormously valuable. You may see in your client's current circumstances a dynamic you worked through 30 years ago. As a result, you may save your client a month or two exploring solutions you know won't work for them.

That's incredibly valuable. Consider that when pricing your services.

Lendal
But how do you sell judgement? People don't want to hear, "That won't work" type of advice. The culture rewards "I can do the impossible" overconfidence. When you find out the project is harder than you thought, you just work nights and weekends to make up for it because you have no spouse or kids to neglect. (Yeah I've used that advantage myself when I was in my 20's.)
nostrademons
Put yourself in situations where "I can do the impossible" overconfidence leads to running up against the brick wall of the impossible and having to start over. Usually that means some form of consulting. A lot of older developers have a lot of luck specializing in fixing problems that have previously been fucked up by junior developers, often using older more-stable technologies or working in tricky problem domains where there are a lot of gotchas.
GrahamGRG
With age you can become more effective! As a 64 year old Developer I tell clients that my USP is 'grey hair'. Younger developers may produce slicker code and better SQL structures - but having run businesses I can look at the requirements from a Directors/Owners point of view and guide them on how to get the most benefit for their organisation from the technology.
penguat
Not to mention avoiding organizational problems that younger developers will blithely lead them into?
collyw
Youngsters these days can't do SQL. Its all MongoDB and Node.
ZenoArrow
That's rubbish. I'm young and know SQL fairly well, it's still a very valuable skill. If you base your opinions of young developers on HN articles then that's your problem.
zerr
Mark, I think you're undercharging. May I ask you, have you tried higher rates and had problems with finding clients? i.e. how did you arrive on your current rates...
mark_l_watson
Well, I do charge a good rate when I work on site. Also, sometimes people pay more than what I advertise if they want a lot of time and instant availability. In general, customers who are willing to work around my life style get a low rate. This seems fair.
rbitar
If it helps, we work with startups/brands/agencies that primarily hire remote developers across a range of languages at FlexDevs: http://FlexDevs.com