HN Explorer

How do you get to write so well in HN?

276 points by nevergetenglish ↗ HN
Sometimes when reading HN I wonder how people get to express their ideas in such a clear and persuasive way, many times they seem to be very intelligent and informed. I have been trying to improve my English a little but not having anybody to write to or any need to use English makes me believe that I will be stagnated in a low level profile, and that I will never will achieve the level of mastery and proficiency they show so well in their writing.

Recently, reading some cites, like Rooselvelt "man in the arena" I got a little sad because perhaps I am doomed to never be such a great speaker. Anyway, I will continue reading HN, enyoing such an intelligent and informative community and trying to hone my English. So bravo for HN.

I find it not justice that "Tim Cook Speaks Up" is eating my cake. What if I am only a heterosexual guy, a troll and my only goal is to get some karma points.

I realize that the language topic is a pure one and that it should be separated (sanned) from a egotists, only looking for karma points guy. But what?, you guys are beautiful and constructive, sorry for not just being that type.

109 comments

[ 8.3 ms ] story [ 505 ms ] thread
tokenadult
In reply, I say bravo for trying to become a better writer. And if English is not your native language, don't become discouraged too soon if your progress seems slow at first. I've been very impressed by the English writing here of some people who plainly grew up speaking some other language in a non-English-speaking country. Keep practicing, and you will become better.

For specific writing advice, I recommend the new book The Sense of Style[1] by Steven Pinker, which is about not just fussy rules of English but also about THINKING in a way that helps improve writing. I will have to practice with the ideas in that book for a long time.

For specific advice on improving English, I have some tips I've shared before here on Hacker News that other readers have liked. As I learned Mandarin Chinese up to the level that I was able to support my family for several years as a Chinese-English translator and interpreter, I had to tackle several problems for which there is not yet a one-stop-shopping software solution. For ANY pair of languages, even closely cognate pairs of West Germanic languages like English and Dutch, or Wu Chinese dialects like those of Shanghai and Suzhou, the two languages differ in sound system, so that what is a phoneme in one language is not a phoneme in the other language.

http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/Wha...

But a speaker of one language who is past the age of puberty will simply not perceive many of the phonemic distinctions in sounds in the target language (the language to be learned) without very careful training, as disregard of those distinctions below the level of conscious attention is part of having the sound system of the speaker's native language fully in mind. Attention to target language phonemes has to be developed through pains-taking practice.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10442032

It is brutally hard for most people (after the age of puberty, and perhaps especially for males) to learn to attend to sound distinctions that don't exist in the learner's native language. That is especially hard when the sound distinction signifies a grammatical distinction that also doesn't exist in the learner's native language. For example, the distinction between "I speak" and "he speaks" in English involves a consonant cluster at the end of a syllable, and no such consonant clusters exist in the Mandarin sound system at all. Worse than that, no such grammatical distinction as "first person singular" and "third person singular" for inflecting verbs exists in Mandarin, so it is remarkably difficult for Mandarin-speaking learners of English to learn to distinguish "speaks" from "speak" and to say "he speaks Chinese" rather than * "he speak Chinese" (not a grammatical phrase in spoken English).

Most software materials for learning foreign languages could be much improved simply by including a complete chart of the sound system of the target language (in the dialect form being taught in the software materials) with explicit description of sounds in the terminology of articulatory phonetics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articulatory_phonetics

with full use of notation from the International Phonetic Alphabet.

http://www.langsci.ucl.ac.uk/ipa/ipachart.html

Good language-learning materials always include a lot of focused drills on sound distinctions (contrasting minimal pairs in the language) in the target language, and no software program for language learning should be without those. It is still an art of software writing...

toomuchtodo
This is a phenomenal reply tokenadult. Would you be willing to reply to the same question if I post it in http://writers.stackexchange.com/?
tokenadult
I'd have to register an account over there, but I could get ready for that while you post the question. Thanks for the suggestion.

AFTER EDIT: I'm registered on Stack Exchange now. I refer in my user profile there to my Hacker News user I.D.

toomuchtodo
Thank you! I'd love you buy you a beer or coffee in return!
TeMPOraL
Post the link to the question when you submit it :).
gphilip
ELL [+] is perhaps a better fit for this question?

[+] http://ell.stackexchange.com/

"English Language Learners Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for speakers of other languages learning English."

clebio
Well, the original question was specific to writing. The author in fact does not say whether English is a second language.
wodenokoto
Out of pure curiosity: Why are you interested in having it cross posted on Stackexchange?
jkaunisv1
Another good way to be exposed to a new language: if you already watch TV shows/movies on your computer, try to find an audio dub in the target language with subs in your native language. Try to ignore the subtitles but use them as a reference when you hear an unfamiliar word or sentence structure.

I really like this because you get to hear usually several different accents & voices that you can start to correlate with stereotypes - how does a young woman talk, how does a shy person talk, how does a businessman talk, how does a thug talk, etc.

everslick
I want to add: I love to watch English movies (and TBBT) with English caption also (Austrian-German is my native Tongue). This allows me to fall back to the English written word should I have missed the spoken one. The meaning of single words is usually easily deducible from context. It also helps to correct my pronunciation of words I use to pronounce incorrectly.
jseliger
For specific writing advice, I recommend the new book The Sense of Style[1] by Steven Pinker, which is about not just fussy rules of English but also about THINKING in a way that helps improve writing. I will have to practice with the ideas in that book for a long time.

I'd add Write Right! by Jan Venolia and Writing With Style by John Trimble.

The Sense of Style is wonderful but I worry especially that it might be too advanced for relative beginners, and the chapter about sentence diagramming / sentence grouping may be confusing.

grownseed
Thank you for this thoughtful comment, I think your writing precisely embodies what nevergetenglish was referring to.

> "It is brutally hard for most people (after the age of puberty, and perhaps especially for males) to learn to attend to sound distinctions that don't exist in the learner's native language."

I'm a native French speaker who learnt English in Scotland when I moved there (been living in mostly English-speaking countries ever since). As far as most people I meet are concerned, I have a very weird accent; the perception ranges from "he's Scottish" to "what the hell?" depending on where I go and who I talk to. In any case, while phonology is clearly very important, I would argue that it is not completely necessary for expressing yourself properly, at least in writing.

> "[...] another huge task for any language learner is acquiring vocabulary, and this is the task on which most language-learning materials are most focused. But often the focus on vocabulary is not very thoughtful."

This is sadly very true, though I honestly don't think there's a silver bullet when it comes to learning vocabulary. One additional source I would add to your "royal road to learning vocabulary" would be exposure to colloquial language, or slang at the extreme, i.e. listening to day-to-day conversations between "commoners". This is how I realized that there is often a "correct" way of saying something (as in purely grammatically correct), and the "natural" way (i.e. as expected by native speakers).

> "Every language has hundreds of tacit grammar rules [...] which reveal a language-learner as a foreigner when the rules are broken"

Continuing from my previous point, I think the opposite sometimes applies too. For instance, back in Scotland, I had to force myself to say "If I was" instead of "If I were", because the mistake has become so systematic that it has almost become a rule.

I think grammar is at least as important as vocabulary, particularly in a language like English where the language is so modular that words can fairly easily be made up, to the extent that they are understandable within a logical context, even if incorrect.

Finally, I would add culture as a possible fourth big task to add to your list. This may just be me, but there seems to be a dimension of language closely tied to the culture associated with it. There are idioms that make complete sense to me, yet I cannot explain why to my (French) family. This is ostensibly related to linguistic relativity[1].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

jrm2k6
Do you also have an accent when speaking in French now? My family and friends told me that even when I speak French I have a weird accent. I have been living in the US, Canada and Hungary and have been speaking English daily for the last 3 years, and it is weird to me that I have now an accent in my native language
touristtam
I am French as well and I have been living in Scotland for the last 10 years or so, and although I do agree on the perception that Scots have a somewhat, perceived, regional dialect, it is true Scottish-English is actually seen as a language; Words that are spoken only on this side of the border are not seen as merely a form of dialect.

I agree as well to the advise given to listen to locals having conversation. It is probably the best way to learn colloquial conversation skills and therefore blend within the local population.

On the accent, it is really hard to leave completely behind your native accent and requires huge amount of effort to replace it. I am not saying it is impossible, but as mentioned by grownseed, some folks will be completely oblivious to the fact that you are not a local and some other will just recognize a twang in the way you speak that isn't quite what they expect from another local.

That being said: "practice makes perfect" ;)

graycat
What progress I made in learning a foreign language, for both vocabulary and appropriate usage of the words, was from learning phrases and not individual words one at a time. Or, to learn several words, it's much easier to learn a phrase that uses those words than just the words themselves. And learning the phrases lets you start to think in the new language and not keep going back via 1-1 word to word from your own language to the foreign one.

One way to learn a lot of those phrases is to have a little story with maybe 20 such sentences and then read the story out loud maybe 20 times a day for a few days. Then practice making the sounds correct via use of language lab where hear a recording of a native speaker reading the story and, then, correcting your reading of the story.

Can learn a lot of a foreign language that way, quickly.

So, this approach is radical: Start with reading and speaking and leave writing and grammar until later, say, after have already learned a lot of phrases. Or, in English, how does one learn I am, you are, he is, we are, you are, they are? Sure, not by memorizing such a table but by lots of phrases that are examples of the content of such a table. Then, when have lots of good examples, learn the rules later.

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Envec83
If I may suggest another resource: http://www.dailywritingtips.com

Articles are published daily, as the name implies, and the they are not that long, so you can learn about standard English usage without spending too much time at it.

kasey_junk
I think it is interesting when people say that they are not good writers or not good public speakers. These are skills like any other. You may or may not have an aptitude for them, but the only way to get really good at any skill is practice.
mturmon
You have to practice writing.

On HN, being specific and brief helps a lot.

Being sure you're conceptually clear in what you want to convey helps with brevity.

enkiv2
Most people who come off as eloquent in english have spent a lot of time not only writing but also reading. Reading encourages passive learning of language patterns, and reading the works of talented writers (even without analysis) can lead to learning some of the skills that those writers use. (I'd be surprised if this were not also the case in your native language.) If you feel like you can't get enough practice speaking and writing english in a conversational context, spend some of the time you would otherwise use to practice writing english instead reading fiction in english.
clebio
This and this again. As a few commenters note, reading exposes you to other ways of structuring and phrasing your own writing. As with reading code, you get exposure to writing styles by reading other's writing.

Read writers of different styles, and read poetry. At the risk of leaving out hundreds, off-hand, read Betrand Russell, Nabakov, Dylan Thomas, Louisa May Alcott, Kerouac. (Try to ignore the fact that Nabakov wrote exquisitely well in more languages than most people speak.)

Read these works aloud, because they sound differently than they scan on the page. Especially if it's something you like, or something that you find hard to read and parse.

Emulate each style. Try copying their words verbatim, because you'll realize things that are easy to skim over when reading. Then try writing something new, but using their style, acting out their style.

Realize that some writing is not meant to be accessible and assume that there will be writers whom you respect, but whose writing styles you don't like. Understand why you don't like those styles and how to avoid those forms -- what did they do and how can you say the same thing but not in that voice.

And, of course, write as well. Write a lot.

mbesto
Practice. Practice. Practice.
gus_massa
I'm not a native English speaker. I usually type the comments in MS Word, so I can correct most of the typos and grammar errors. Another trick is to reread the comments twice before submitting.
rokhayakebe
Art:

"If truth was self evident, Eloquence wouldn't be needed." And surely we need eloquence. I share your envy. I believe you have to imitate the writers/users you enjoy reading the most. As you go along, you will develop your style. Think of words as colors, and beautify your sentences.

Science:

Pick up a book on Logic, preferably very old, then Rhetoric. Done!

izolate
I'm glad I'm not alone in noticing this. The level of discourse on HN is step beyond any other site I frequent. I don't go a single day without being impressed by somebody's diction.

Some of you have a knack for articulating my inner thoughts with far more eloquence than I ever could.

minimaxir
It's also worth noting that the level of discourse is higher because low-quality content (e.g. Reddit-level puns) is appropriately dismissed.
jnbiche
>The level of discourse on HN is step beyond any other site I frequent.

I agree. HN has recently (in the past 6 months) re-gained a lot of the high-level discourse that drew me in I first started lurking 4-5 years ago.

Well-done, dang et al.! Not that it was in a hole, but you've succeeded in bringing the site's discourse up a level.

spindritf
English is my second language and posting a comment on HN takes me five rewrites before clicking "add comment" and two+ edits after. Even then they don't necessarily come out all that clear judging by some of the responses I get.

Maybe start a blog in English or hang out in IRC channels related to your interests?

tokenadult
I had no idea that English is your second language. I am impressed. I've upvoted a lot of your comments since I first started seeing them, so your writing method seems to work.
JoeAltmaier
Hey I speak "Standard American English" and I post on HN exactly the same way. I'd call you proficient in written English, no excuses needed.
baby
Try to write more. I think I have the same struggle as you and I've seen improvements when I started writing everyday. There is an application for that: 750words.com (which only gives you a 30days trial but it's a good way to start! I've made my own application like this (3pages.fr) it's free but it's in french :))
zaphar
There are two things that helped me when getting better at writing.

1. Reading other good writing. 2. Practicing writing.

The first one is pretty self explanatory. Just read good writing and analyze the patterns they use to express themselves.

The second involves practicing the art of writing. When I write, even on a site like HN, I take my time.

The first draft is a throwaway. I just dump what's in my head on the screen or paper.

Then I "refactor" it. I add organization to the thoughts and concepts and then I ruthlessly cut anything not crucial to what I want to express.

I have a last step I use when It's a blog post or article. I use an "editor" usually my wife who looks it over misspellings, grammar, or confusing content. I don't usually do that for HN though since it's a more informal medium.

[dead] tomc1985
I've found that reading everything I can, and then writing lots of random things, helped my writing the most
Igglyboo
Native english speaker here, I have the same problem. I can express my ideas clearly in my head and when talking to people but my writing is just terrible IMO. I feel like I'm not taken seriously some of the time because my writing is bad even though my content is not.
danso
My main profession has been a writer...and since joining HN, I've probably written 10x more words on these comment boards than for any other forum or published medium. I can't say that I'm actively trying to practice...but discussion here is (usually) so enjoyable that it's easy to get in the habit...just like playing recreational soccer for fun can often be a better way to get in shape than a dedicated running regimen.

If English and writing is not something you've been able to devote yourself to, I would recommend something in addition to frequent commenting: pick up a copy of "The Elements of Style" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Style) and as you write comments on HN (or blog posts)...pick a rule in Elements of Style and focus on the technique mentioned. For example, rule 12, Prefer the specific to the general, the definite to the vague, the concrete to the abstract.

e.g. "He showed satisfaction as he took possession of his well-earned reward" versus "He grinned as he pocketed the coin".

Look over your comment and revise it according to the technique. Rinse, repeat, etc.

Elements of Style is an old book, but I still find it to be great advice. I've thought about making such a book for programming in a high level language (I know such a book exists for C/C++)...because good style can really influence good function.

Also, assuming that you're using a throwaway profile for this comment, make a profile with your real name and identity. This has been discussed on HN before, but being accountable to your identity is a nice push to make you even more attentive to your quality of writing.

toxophile
Advice to practice is good. Advice on HOW to practice may be useful, too.

Try summarising other people's texts - and don't just take each sentence separately and try to make it shorter, take all the ideas in the piece and experiment with reorganising them in your mind and then on the page to produce a more elegant and concise means of expressing them to your reader. Lots of the good HN writers you've noted see the short and compelling 'elevator pitch' that summarises months of work and aspiration as their greatest challenge. Politicians are always looking for the 10 word phrase that conveys the heart of their policy.

Read what you write back to yourself. Aloud. Good writing also tends to be 'performable' - no rambling subclauses to get lost in, no awkward word combinations that make the speaker (or listener, or reader) stumble and disengage. Be more Harrison Ford and less George Lucas (Han Solo said something like "You can write this stuff, George, but I can't say it")

And finally, do exactly what you've started here: Seek advice and feedback. This is a community that shares ideas, so dive in, but ask for comment on how you express them as well as their content. Grab a native speaker and check your idioms. Ask friends to point out the clunky sentences that lets down an otherwise good paragraph.

Good luck to you!

serve_yay
Read a lot, and write a lot! (You have to do the reading part to expose yourself to lots of different people who write well, which over time will distill into knowledge of how to write. But that part will only happen if you write.)
franciscop
I would recommend not only reading, but also writing a lot of text. I find that writing text is not much different from programming: if you just try to improve a little it will not work. You have to make a conscious effort.

Also writing is an iterative process, at least when you are learning a foreign language. Write a paragraph, then stop and think: how can I express the same idea in a better way? Rewrite it until you cannot add or remove anything else. Then keep writing another paragraph. After several of them go back to the first ones and read them for yourself. They might not make sense anymore; so start again.

It's not simple and not everyone can make it. You have to aim for doing your best and stop any "it's good enough" thoughts that you might have. There will be a point when you don't need to rewrite it anymore; that's when you pick up a a new language (;

TL;DR:

1. Read 2. Write 3. Rewrite 4. GOTO 1

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1123581321
I'd suggest to look up a list of the "100 best English books" or something like that, and also to read a lot of the best engineering/development books, including those that are written about the developers themselves more than the details of their work.
AnthonBerg
Most of all just write a lot.

Read well-written copy, whether it is elaborate prose, wartime speeches, or clean and fresh ad copy. Analyse it. Emulate it.

Write first, then edit. Don't do both at the same time.

Read your old stuff and find flaws in it.

Shorten text. Shorter is almost always better.

redmattred
I would say practice makes perfect. If becoming a better writer is important to you, try to build a regular practice where you write each day and build some sort of feedback loop into this process to help you improve the quality.

There are plenty of pedantic people spending their time on forums who will naturally correct you if you make an error in your writing.

Writing a blog entry once a week and asking a friend or two to review the draft might be another way.

You're not doomed to anything if you take on a mindset where you believe that you can and will improve.

qodeninja
There are the people who make technology, and then there are those who write about it. I've rarely seen both in one person, as each side requires a level of focus and dedication that would do the other side an injustice.

HN in my perspective, is mostly a PR site for technologists trying to push their brand/personality with some bigger agenda.

I've seen a lot of people develop their brand/persona on HN and blogs before trying to push out some tech company. 3 such people come to mind.

To be fair, I'm probably no different, except that I dont post here (yet) -- just consume and opinionate.

So consider the context.

If you really want to be good at writing the best way is to practice. A blog is a great way to get in the habit of writing.

I would also refer you to some well known books like the de facto standard for "good" English composition used by PR's and news organizations: The Elements of Style (http://goo.gl/SPcAOF <== amazon link with my referrer tag)

Like anything they key to becoming "good" is time, focus and dedication -- obviously.

In any case, consider the context of HN and what the motivating factor is for people who do submit posts here -- they write well because they have an agenda and are using language as a tool to advance their agenda -- me too!

(side note: I'm still trying to figure out what the motivating factor is for Redditors though, if anyone knows, please let me know.)

(side note 2: I'm really surprised that in the book mentions, no one mentioned Elements of Style - it really is a big deal. Ask any Literature/English professor. I just re-ordered it myself for nostalgia sake and I'm always catching myself trying to remember the rules from it)

mixmax
There's a fallacy here, and interestingly it's also at play on facebook.

You know when you look through your feed on facebook, and every single day you see that at least one of your friends has done something amazing, commendable or just interesting? That makes you feel that you aren't doing anything with your life, and that all your friends seem to be living more interesting and happier lives.

But stop and think for a moment. Approach it from the other side. If you have 365 friends, and you post one interesting post a year you are faring as well as the average of your friends. It just seems that everyone is doing more interesting things than you because you only notice the interesting things your friends post. You only see the highlights. Nobody posts a "today was boring - I did absolutely nothing" status.

HN is the same. Think a bit about it.

If 10.000 people see a comment thread then statistically someone will be knowledgeable about the subject, whether its the French Revolution or the finer nuances of L2 caching. The most knowledgeable ones will feel they have something to contribute and write a comment. The vast majority won't. On top of that the top comment is (supposedly) the most well-written, eloquent and knowledgeable, and can thus be argued to be the best 10.000 people can come up with.

If I were to start commenting on threads about L2 caches I would make an absolute fool of myself, and prove to everyone that I have no clue what I'm talking about. So I don't.

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JoshTriplett
That's a really good example of impostor syndrome on a grand scale.

Also see http://alistapart.com/column/seeing-past-the-highlight-reel : "we compare our behind-the-scenes with everyone else’s highlight reel".

People also tend to sound far better in writing, precisely because they have the opportunity to compose and edit; you don't necessarily see the volume of composition and editing that goes into the average post. Anecdotally, I'd suggest that it takes far longer to write a quality post than you'd guess. Short content can take all the longer to write, precisely because of its brevity. ("I have made this letter longer than usual, because I lack the time to make it short." -- Blaise Pascal)

(I also like this image: http://open.bufferapp.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/0-VtB9_... )

And that's just on an individual level, comparing yourself to one specific other person. When you compare yourself to an entire community of people and their highlights, you run into exactly the issue mixmax noted: the most knowledgeable and confident people will post, and a subset of those will get upvoted.

Comparing yourself individually to the best of what a large community can offer is like asking why you're not an Olympic athlete.

If you want to build up your skills in writing specifically, consider focusing your writing on areas you already have expertise in, or on areas that you're actively learning about to provide an "experiences" type of writeup. And compare yourself primarily to your past self.