The lack of civility and humanity on the Internet can be astounding. You are a neanderthal if you think it is ok to heckle (at best) or threaten (at worst) women in tech.
I think much of this behavior is due to people's young age, and the complete lack of understanding of what sexism is. I often see people here on HN confuse sexism (which is a systemic, often cultural discrimination against women, usually with no malice involved) with misogyny (disdain or contempt towards women). They fail to realize that most of us are sexist without realizing it, and that doesn't mean we're evil -- just a product of an unfair society. Instead of listening and trying to find hidden biases (which are sometimes as interesting to spot as a well-hidden bug in a program) they start getting defensive, and quickly progress from sexism to outright misogyny.
It's pretty educational. Very few people on this site fall into racist, sexist, homophobic patterns. We would like to believe cops are mostly good. But...
If you want to be horrified by what cops really think, go to a cop discussion board.
If you want your image of a post-racial America shattered, go to Facebook and search for Ferguson.
If you want to find out if there is still a big huge problem with sexism in the tech industry, do a Reddit AMA.
I'm not quite sure whether that remark is racist or speciest, but as someone whose DNA is 3.3% Neanderthal according to 23andMe testing, I say screw you either way.
the disrespect and downright abuse of women in technology is both disturbing and downright disgusting. When will it end? What will it take for people to back off gender for a moment and listen to what people have to offer. Who cares what is between your legs when your contribution is a gift from the heart and mind.
I'm not sure to understand HN's ranking system. This is top page and is an article extrapolating sexism in a particular field from being trolled on reddit, which seems to me quite common. (Also, the article had 5 points and one comment as of this posting)
On subject: As I said, concluding something from being trolled by people on reddit does not seem valid.
I asked a serious non-gender related question and never got an answer. A significant portion of MIT is the R&D extension of the pentagon. If an MIT researcher brings up an ethical issue related to the application of their research, does it spark a discussion or are they ignored as someone who is not focusing on the problem at hand? Or, are people who ask thoses sorts of questions already filtered out by this point?
It is not gender related but probably the most important question you could ask an MIT academic. Its too bad they chose not to answer.
"People treat girls and boys differently from an early age, giving them different feedback and expectations."
Bold, italicize, underline. So many of my fellow men would never dispute that organized religion is only sustained through socialization of young children, but few seem to observe the similar pattern for sex ineqaulity.
I think not many people would oppose that statement. Where opinions differ is whether one or the other sex is given an advantage in a particular subject/area of life.
"The interactions in the AMA itself showed that gender does still matter."
does it really? it sounds like if their gender was omitted in the first place, the topic would not have been breached. i'm not saying their conclusion is incorrect, i'm just confused by how they got there.
say for example, a "gay computer scientist" did an AMA. some people would (rightfully) ask "why does your sexual orientation matter?". others will make fun of them for being gay.
the only thing i'm convinced of is that some people like to harass and provoke and troll. and for those people, minorities are easy targets. and the internet is the easiest and safest place to do it. and when you're dealing with an audience of 5000 people on Reddit, statistically speaking a subset of them are going to be that kind of stupid.
edit: the fact that my comment, and literally over half the other comments in this thread are grey, support my simpler conclusion that uncivil people exist.
I think people are incorrectly reacting to you questioning "does [gender] really [matter]?" It appears to me that you are questioning "does [the AMA] really [show]?"
I think you made sound questions in a civil way. I don't see why you should be downvoted. But HN is fickle at times.
thanks for a thoughtful response. your analysis is correct. but, given that the article convinced me of nothing, further posing the question "does gender really matter" seems fair as well.
i thought my intent was clear when i explained "i'm not saying their conclusion is incorrect, i'm just confused by how they got there." i didn't intend to disagree with their conclusion- i was simply drawing another conclusion from their data.
Their complaints fall into two:
1) People questioned why they brought up being female
2) Trolls asked stupid/offensive questions
We can all quickly agree on #2. It's 100% unacceptable but simply reflects (as you pointed out) that certain % of population are assholes, not widespread gender issue.
However - #1 seems valid to me. In the words of supreme court justice Roberts - "The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race". Ie if you want people to stop discriminating on the basis of gender, stop making it a deal.
One may agree or disagree with this logic - but it's silly to point at it as example of 'gender discrimination'. YOU may want to make your gender an issue, but others' not wishing to join you in it doesn't mean anything.
If someone did a 'gay computer scientist' AMA I'd be interested because it's a specific person talking about their experiences - just like most AMAs are. If someone asked why that mattered - I would really wonder why they bothered to click - just move on. I'm very interested in what women at MIT experience so the fact that people were so aggressive about a headline does point out a gender issue. And maybe the question is a real one. Maybe they really don't understand that women have different experiences in the science/tech field than men. If you care at all to have more women speaking out about their experiences in tech and on reddit, than telling them they're doing it wrong is probably not going to help.
I am unable to copy and paste, but the article quotes a comment from reddit where someone pointed out that when someone included "I'm a male dog groomer" in their AMA, no one asked "Why does your gender matter?" So I think that is evidence that there is a double standard here.
As a woman who spends some time on HN, my experience is that, yeah, my gender is a problem here. Most men do not want to network with me. If I try to network, it seems to be interpreted as me hitting on them or threatening their relationship or something. Maybe I just do not know how to network. That's entirely possible. But I have done some of the same things that I have seen men here comment positively on that other men have done -- such as try to be emotionally supportive when someone is having a bad day -- and, coming from me, it is apparently interpreted completely differently. So far, Hacker News has essentially failed as a networking opportunity for me. I know for a fact other people have used it successfully that way. So I know it is not simply me wildly misunderstanding what the site is good for or something like that.
I am willing to consider the possibility that I am simply doing something wrong that compounds the problem. But I have had people try to tell me that my gender is not relevant to my failure in that regard and I am not buying it. I have been a member for more than 5 years. By now, I should have a few contacts from here, even after accounting for this, that and the other obstacle. But, I don't.
22 comments
[ 3.7 ms ] story [ 73.4 ms ] threadIf you want to be horrified by what cops really think, go to a cop discussion board.
If you want your image of a post-racial America shattered, go to Facebook and search for Ferguson.
If you want to find out if there is still a big huge problem with sexism in the tech industry, do a Reddit AMA.
I'm not quite sure whether that remark is racist or speciest, but as someone whose DNA is 3.3% Neanderthal according to 23andMe testing, I say screw you either way.
How ironic when that is the exact statement they are complaining about in the first place.
On subject: As I said, concluding something from being trolled by people on reddit does not seem valid.
It is not gender related but probably the most important question you could ask an MIT academic. Its too bad they chose not to answer.
Bold, italicize, underline. So many of my fellow men would never dispute that organized religion is only sustained through socialization of young children, but few seem to observe the similar pattern for sex ineqaulity.
does it really? it sounds like if their gender was omitted in the first place, the topic would not have been breached. i'm not saying their conclusion is incorrect, i'm just confused by how they got there.
say for example, a "gay computer scientist" did an AMA. some people would (rightfully) ask "why does your sexual orientation matter?". others will make fun of them for being gay.
the only thing i'm convinced of is that some people like to harass and provoke and troll. and for those people, minorities are easy targets. and the internet is the easiest and safest place to do it. and when you're dealing with an audience of 5000 people on Reddit, statistically speaking a subset of them are going to be that kind of stupid.
edit: the fact that my comment, and literally over half the other comments in this thread are grey, support my simpler conclusion that uncivil people exist.
I think you made sound questions in a civil way. I don't see why you should be downvoted. But HN is fickle at times.
i thought my intent was clear when i explained "i'm not saying their conclusion is incorrect, i'm just confused by how they got there." i didn't intend to disagree with their conclusion- i was simply drawing another conclusion from their data.
Their complaints fall into two: 1) People questioned why they brought up being female 2) Trolls asked stupid/offensive questions
We can all quickly agree on #2. It's 100% unacceptable but simply reflects (as you pointed out) that certain % of population are assholes, not widespread gender issue.
However - #1 seems valid to me. In the words of supreme court justice Roberts - "The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race". Ie if you want people to stop discriminating on the basis of gender, stop making it a deal.
One may agree or disagree with this logic - but it's silly to point at it as example of 'gender discrimination'. YOU may want to make your gender an issue, but others' not wishing to join you in it doesn't mean anything.
As a woman who spends some time on HN, my experience is that, yeah, my gender is a problem here. Most men do not want to network with me. If I try to network, it seems to be interpreted as me hitting on them or threatening their relationship or something. Maybe I just do not know how to network. That's entirely possible. But I have done some of the same things that I have seen men here comment positively on that other men have done -- such as try to be emotionally supportive when someone is having a bad day -- and, coming from me, it is apparently interpreted completely differently. So far, Hacker News has essentially failed as a networking opportunity for me. I know for a fact other people have used it successfully that way. So I know it is not simply me wildly misunderstanding what the site is good for or something like that.
I am willing to consider the possibility that I am simply doing something wrong that compounds the problem. But I have had people try to tell me that my gender is not relevant to my failure in that regard and I am not buying it. I have been a member for more than 5 years. By now, I should have a few contacts from here, even after accounting for this, that and the other obstacle. But, I don't.