Spreading a little Christmas job-hunting hope
Google* (third time in 3 years) Twilio* (x2) Smartling* Samsung* Amazon+ Facebook Cloudflare AppDynamics* DigitalOcean Placemeter* E.W.Scripps* Hatch AppNexus* OpenX ThoughtWorks* Roost ... several others I can't remember ... several others I can remember, but mutually decided the fit was wrong ... MANY others to whom I submitted a resume and never heard back
* = rejected after in-person interview + = withdrew, sensing impending rejection else, rejected after phone screen
In addition, I took the GMAT and was rejected by the following schools:
MIT Sloan Stanford Business School Columbia Business School Harvard Business School
If you're thinking "Wow that's a lot of calls and interviews to come up empty-handed", you're right. You see, while my resume is (apparently) attractive, I suffer from crippling anxiety, the kind that says "Hey, you have in interview tomorrow! No sleep for you!" It turns out interviewers don't like bloodshot eyes, dark circles and a foggy Xanax brain. (Nor does the GMAT.)
But finally... last week I had an interview at a major university, got 3 hours of sleep but somehow landed the job (pending HR salary approval). It doesn't pay like Google does, but I think I'll learn a lot and I'm extremely grateful that someone finally said "yes" to me. I'm going to make the most of it and will be a better engineer from the experience.
Don't give up! If you have any technical skill, whatsoever, someone out there wants to hire you. Just keep plugging along!
79 comments
[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 155 ms ] threadRe crippling anxiety - I highly recommend improv classes.
> I suffer from crippling anxiety [...] foggy Xanax brain.
Consider asking your doctor about propranolol.
It's a safe, non-addictive beta-blocker often used to treat high blood pressure, but it also eliminates the peripheral nervous system response to anxiety, the "fight-or-flight" adrenaline rush feeling: racing heart, shortness of breath, inability to concentrate, shaking, sweaty hands, blushing, etc.
It doesn't effect your mental anxiety, but it'll cut out all of the physical symptoms, which makes the mental anxiety much easier to control, without creating any sort of brain fog.
"Crack may cause shivers, night terrors, gay-for-pay, heart palpitations, homicidal paranoia or the sensation that you're on fire. Peeing blood and seeing friends' faces as talking skeletons are possible side effects of crack.
People who use crack may also experience 5-7 years in prison where brutal raping may occur. If you experience one or more of these side effects, consult your dealer. You may need more crack.
Crack. Isn't it time you see what all the fuss is about?"
The easiest way I found was the headspace app, although I didn't keep up with it in the long-run, but at the time I felt that I was feeling calmer, although it could very well be the ignition placebo.
While many people feel that other type of drugs, like benzodiazepines (e.g. Valium, Xanax) cause them to become somewhat of a different person, beta blockers like propranolol can better be described as making you a rock-solid version of yourself.
It's so torturous, I actually considered having a friend use my email to schedule the interview (or GMAT) for me, then only tell me I have an interview (or GMAT) the day I have the interview (or GMAT). If this situation had gone on much longer, I would have done this.
So far the only thing that has helped (besides the Benadryl for getting me to sleep but not keeping me asleep or making the sleep worthwhile) was Lexapro for one glorious month. Seriously. It was a religious experience. I felt like normal people for a few weeks. Then relapsed.
Hopefully I can get it working again at some point.
Also, I don't really get nervous at the interviews. Actually, I'm as cool as a cucumber. It's just the night before that puts me through the ringer. It borders on panic. Part of my decision to accept the current offer is based on the "Dear God don't make me sweat out the night before interviews" aspect of things.
Why are your body or subconscious convinced you are about to enter a stressful, risky situation and start to react this way? What conditioned them to believe this?
It happened to me too by the way, both the night before and during the interviews, and what I walked away with was the realization: I disliked expectations.
I didn't want to be interviewing, or working for someone else, or generally doing what I thought I was supposed to be doing. I needed time to get on a path where I would be doing what was right for me.
If nothing was expected of you, and there were no restrictions (financial, societal, etc.) on what you could do, what would you rather be doing? You said in another comment you are pretty good at what you do, so could it be that the problem isn't you but the general idea of expectations?
How would you fight this without drugs?
I'm attempting the numbers game approach (apply for 100 companies, 5 will get back to you, select from those 5), but I've hit the edge of: what if there are none that are willing?
Thanks for the luck, will keep banging head against wall until a job is found. Happy holidays!
I didn't say anything offensive, just asking a question.
Learn the difference between other people saying something offensive and yourself implying some offensive meaning into a neutral statement.
We are having problems finding local devs so we could consider remote hands on deck. Drop me en email on jobs (at) nopio.com if that sounds interesting.
Merry Christmas!
My last interview at amazon went like this:
Stupid trick coding question over the phone that I did not understand at all. Followed by 3 memorization questions. followed by one question I felt was valid and i know i got it right.
I was being interviewed for a specific product that was right up my ally. I could literally build what they had built easily, but they never once asked questions related to the product or my experience.
I looked at the product a year later and basically nothing has been done to it.
The rest of the story? A couple years later I had a chance to talk with the hiring manager while he was applying for a position at a place I was working - seems the person HR picked led to their whole unit being disbanded because they failed so miserably. He felt he had to take some of the blame for not keeping a closer eye on the person, but still...
I've found this to be true in a small number of my experiences. There are certain positions I interviewed for where my history was 100% in line with their needs, the interviews all went well and I should have gotten the job. But then didn't. Have no idea why not.
Unless theres some racism going on since they can see my picture. Thats the only way they can differentiate between 2 people who have the same score.
I usually add these companies (and if possible, the team in question) and keep track of the position and project as well. They're not going to like it when the chip on my shoulder becomes too big and I decide to compete against them.
Just don't become a super villain like Guy Pierce did in Iron Man 3
Did you mean memoization, the optimization technique where you cache intermediate results? Or were they literally asking you to memorize and recite minutiae over the phone?
I always get these two words mixed up, and it doesn't help that Firefox doesn't think "memoization" is actually word.
For example implement some specific algorithm. If you remember some of that algorithm or memorized it you are good. Otherwise you suck at development because you haven't had the need to implement that algo ever in your career..
About 5 minutes after the call ended, my jaw dropped open and I slapped my forehead. To find the anagrams of a word, just parse the set and remove any words that are (a) the same length and (b) contain the same numbers of each letter in the original.
Fizz buzz. And I made it like 1000x harder.
A generous interviewer would say, "Well at least he knows recursion and can do it on the fly in a stressful situation". But this is Facebook and they don't have to be generous. I gave them a reason to say "no" and then they said "no".
But as for "dysfunctional jokes", I have to agree (and you can tell from my OP that I have plenty of experience with it). Asking someone to code on the fly is like asking someone to write a novella on the fly. You need focus and concentration. By demanding it with someone breathing into your ear the whole time, you're simply giving those who are better able to handle pressure an advantage and those who can't a disadvantage. If this were a bomb-diffusal position, you'd want to filter for that. But this is coding, so what should pressure-handling matter?
I mean i never research or think about shit. i just code it man and release it like a boss because thats how coding in the real world works. You better be quick on your feet if you want to get into the big guys. This is real world coding after all :) ...
haha
Thank you for reminding us not to give up. A lot of your story sounded familiar, although you were way more persistent than I was. I'm 33, and recently got rejected from two different bay area "dream job" companies after making it through several phone rounds in order to fly out for in-person interviews. The more recent of which, I got nervous the night before and only got three hours of sleep. The hardest part of that rejection was wondering "what if" I had been just a little bit sharper.
After the second rejection, I accepted a position with a small defense contractor near my home in Washington DC. The bureaucracy and mindless restriction are sources of endless frustration. The combination of billing by the hour and a long commute leave very little time and energy for keeping up the job search.
Reading your story reminds me I have very little to complain about. Thank you for posting. I'll use some of this time off to send out some more applications. Hope you have a great Christmas and good luck once the new job starts!
But that's not true. I know it's not true because I used to be one of the people who didn't feel interview pressure. When I landed a dream-type job a few years ago (which ended up being a nightmare due to a psychopathic boss, but that's beside the point), I remember going into the interviews head-strong, cocky and almost arrogant... which they apparently loved bc they hired me on the spot.
Ha! It makes me laugh now. I'm twice the engineer I was then, but half the interviewee simply because my ego has been recalibrated to reality.
In the last 8 months, I have submitted 270+ job applications, received 3 interviews, got rejected by all three, none of which were high reputation companies.
Great to hear you had a success! :)
Cheers, —A
Some thoughts/tipps: Start your interview with: "I happy to be here ... am really nervous, i couldn't sleep last night." ... that removes questions marks in recruiters had about your eyes.
Don't tell em about xanax, better, don't use it.
@pookieinc 3+ years are not impressive ... i code for 15 years and possibly the guy who are you talking about your job too ... so don't behave like the god of coding.
@pXMzR2A 270+ job applications ... hmm your resume must be shit or you apply for jobs you are not qualified for ... i would love to see it, there must be a major bug in it :)
... and btw. congrats and merry christmas
[1] Specifically, I cut out wheat and corn altogether, reduced my carbohydrate intake to less than 50g a day, and never ate anything with added sugars.
However, I just can't get behind your dietary suggestions. Corn and wheat are not psychoactive substances. I don't think there's any solid science to support the idea that adding/removing them would affect your general anxiety levels.
As I said in another response, Lexapro gave me one amazing month of clarity away from my condition and it was a near-religious experience. I could make plans again. I became interested in girls again. I wanted to scream from the mountain tops and work as a door-to-door salesman for the pharma company that changed my life. Then I relapsed.
In other words, for some people (like me), there is a serious physiological issue at work that needs a pharmaceutical fix. No amount of vitamins or yoga or whatever is going to change that.
This year I sent tons of CVs, very few responses, a lot of technical tests, some interviews where "you don't fit the profile"
Companies usually like me when I start working for them, but to "cross the chasm" is hard.
So to have my fate determined by a short interview over the phone by some arbitrary questions just seems... suboptimal. Inefficient. Stupid.
Someone has to fix the incumbent resume-based hiring process. It is fucked beyond belief.
1 Iterative/agile software development. YAGNI. Build the bare minimum, then iterate when you learn more.
2. Hire slow, fire fast.
A really agile org would be hiring fast too. Now... I know a lot of this has to do with labor laws - hiring an actual employee brings extra baggage. And in the US at least, more people may want to be employees for reasons like health insurance.
Even with those considerations, companies should be bringing on more short term contractors, and the ones that work out stay longer. The ones that don't, for whatever reason, move on.
The same teams that will say "YAGNI, just build XYZ, ship it, etc" - iow, just get stuff out the door - will hem and haw and take forever looking for a perfect candidate that, in reality, doesn't even exist.
It's early in the morning, this sort of makes sense in my head, but I may not quite be making sense. But it's still a seeming conflict that bugs me.
More to the point, they think employees have zero flexibility. That if the employee is hasn't worked with a certain technology (like Hibernate, but has Java experience) this doesn't matter.
This is especially true of startups. They feel like they're under pressure to produce yesterday and don't have time for someone to get "up to speed".
Worst is when they say "Well you don't have any Ruby experience. Maybe you could do a Ruby coding assignment for us." Then you spend the whole weekend cranking out a Ruby application only for them to say "This is great. Well done. But we really need someone with Ruby experience."
desk smash
A shorter trial period makes a lot of sense, especially as more and more people with weaker tech backgrounds are drawn into software development by the strong job market. That said, internships fulfill this role for a lot of companies. Especially at the larger tech companies, internships seem like primarily an extended job interview.
"Smartling* Cloudflare AppDynamics* DigitalOcean Placemeter* Hatch AppNexus* OpenX ThoughtWorks* Roost"
I knew Google, Facebook, Amazon, Samsung, Cloudflare, appdynamics, DO, openx and thoughtworks without even batting an eye - the others sound familiar, but I can't say definitively if I know what they do.
"Midwest-city tool and die cutting" probably needs someone with this person's skills just as much, perhaps moreso, than digitalocean needs yet another devops guru.
In a way it's kind of belwildering how radically different seem to be the job hunting experience for many HW users.
You see so many posts like "I had multiple six-figure offers", or "it's impossible to find enough candidates for the position" and then you see posts like this.
I graduated in Electronics but it was clear for me that I liked software more, and embedded is a good compromise.
After a while, if you do ok with your job you could ask to move to more HW focused roles inside the same company.
I guess it's like anything else, the talent at the very top of the scale (or at least perceived to be at the top of the scale) is going to command the most offers and most money. I think that would be fine with me, but the frustrating/infuriating part is it feels like an image game and NOT a meritocracy. The names on your resume (universities and workplaces) seem to matter more than your actual skills.
I've seen this at work, first-hand, too. It's hard to describe without giving away an identity, but one of my friends fell ass-backwards into Google as a semi-early employee (pre-IPO) and, on top of a sweet cash nest egg, has been rabidly recruited by everyone under the sun ever since, despite suspect engineering skill. Even went through YC. The snowball effect has been amazing to see up close.
I hear you about the anxiety. I managed to land an interview with nvidia in 2001 and was so nervous that I couldn't eat or sleep for the 24 hours before the start of the interview (then ate lunch with them at their cafeteria and was wolfing food down like an animal). Didn't fare well, but a year later of hunting and working as a substitute teacher, I ended up working with a great team at FedEx for a while and went to being a "computer scientist" at the army research lab after that.
Anxiety is a challenge, but it can be overcome! I'm even in the process of starting with "toastmasters" to get me out of my comfort zone and learn how to be "on" around strangers.
Again, congratulations and thanks for sharing!