Ask HN: I'm 18, broke, and inexperienced. What do I do?
I have a few questions for you guys, and if you will answer them I will be thankful and possibly even inspired to do something great.
Are there companies out there that are okay investing time/engergy/money into young and inexperienced software developers? Sure, I've read a few articles on the internet about this, but I would love to have a better outlook in the eyes of HN.
Would I have a chance? I haven't listed all that I've done on my GitHub, Linkedin, and such, keep in mind.
If you were in my shoes and had a month to come up with some income, how would you go about doing it? Believe me, I've spent hours on Fiverr, Freelancer, Gun.io, BountySource, and more, but nothing has came from that except a few dollars here and there. Certainly not enough for a kid who is living on his own. I have, of course, applied to several restaurants within manageable bus distance. No luck. I even attempted to join all of the branches of the military; There were no GED spots open at the time (and don't assume I can't take commitment (because of dropping out of highschool), I have several people who would say otherwise (all programmers)). I realized that if my employment depended on giving in to a flawed education system, I'd rather switch professions. Nothing is worth feeding that monster.
If you guys have any advice that could help me on my search for software development income, feel free to reply. I also wouldn't mind discussing any controversy I've caused here. Tell me what you are thinking!
Check out these links, and happy late xmas! www.thehorne.com www.github.com/jessehorne
111 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 165 ms ] threadPHP was a fun language; I wrote this (https://github.com/jessehorne/phpbf) with it. Some would say that's no where near enough to experience PHP, but I got enough taste to realize it was similar to a lot of other languages I had dabbled with in the past.
I'm going to look into a couple of PHP forums, probably related to some popular framework to see if I can find some work. The time it would take to learn one of them is time I could spend developing using a language that I know already, but I guess priority should be determined after this thread has died.
Thank you for the advice, friend.
I've looked into a few open source projects before, but most of my time has been spent on various game ideas and such that weren't really open source.
I claim to be a Lua expert but there doesn't seem to be any jobs out there for that (and it's simple, but according to some articles I haven't used it long enough). I should have listened to a couple mentors when they told me to master something else. I can't really dislike the experience though because I've learned a ton, and got to meet some interesting people in several communities.
Maybe do this?
"I am a young software developer.
more coming soon..."
You're god damn right. Income? Who needs it? Do something awesome that you are passionate about. Everything else will flow from that.
"Do something awesome that you are passionate about." I've donated quite a few hours just building applications with friends. There is no better feeling being productive, working on something awesome with interesting people. Only recently did I decide to stop working for free because it was a necessity (and a few articles convinced me not to as well).
Passion may be working for 3 - 6 months to save to go to a development bootcamp or just working through it. I know several have programs to get financing to do it, if that is a possibility.
I've hired people from dev bootcamp and can say these programs are worth it. Just be smart about it.
If you are passionate, then dedicating several months to save money to go to one of the schools by taking any job while staying sharp should be worth it. To the point, you are 18 yrs old and can take the few months now of working a whole to set up the rest of your life.
Just don't go in debt. That lasts awhile, and I'm sure there's plenty of people here who have been in it through a bad startup.
I can share with you that my passion has not always paid me dividends but has taught me much and has led me to the right experiences that led me to jobs that have paid me well.
Do some that you give a shit about, even if it makes no money right now... gain experience and in the long run experience will make you money.
If you're 18 you probably have no liabilities at this moment other than to eat and keep warm. Know that that makes you _free_ and there is nothing more enabling than being _free_.
You have a skill, find someone who needs your skill and ask them to pay you more than you think you are worth - chances are you are underestimating yourself. Never apologize or downplay your skill or experience. Hustle.
I regularly hire development contractors and the two failure modalities I see most often are:
1. Failure to communicate/organize/deliver on time. This is particularly pronounced amongst younger developers who frequently end up losing focus midway through a project and "go dark." The #1 way to avoid this is to set expectations, meet those expectations, and communicate along the way. Given your educational background, this is probably the biggest hurdle you have to overcome.
2. Inadequate assessment of abilities. Unfortunately many younger developers think they're a lot better than they are so they try to tackle super-challenging projects. If you're young and inexperienced, start with the easy stuff (ie. basic CRUD apps for boring businesses). Probably the best way to improve is to latch on to a popular open source project and find a mentor in that community who can teach you best practices around design patterns, testing, etc.
Finally, I'd suggest that you work a bit on your personal marketing. Don't focus on your age or that you're "hungry." Fake it till you make it. Also, put a clear list of skills (with demonstrative projects linked) right up front. (I'm only 21, but you wouldn't know that from the front page of my website.)
I don't want to market myself as something I'm not, so I've probably been too cautious not to. I don't want to have someones expectations of me drop, but I think you're right.
EDIT All of the jobs I've gotten have worked out, btw. I apologize for not answering that in the initial reply.
In that case, you should immediately ask all your previous clients:
1) If they have any additional work they'd be interested in hiring you for (but phrase it something like this: "My schedule is opening up a bit in the next few weeks and I wanted to make sure you got first crack before my availability tightens up again.")
2) If they don't have any additional projects, ask them for a testimonial (on LinkedIn and your site) and to refer you to any of their friends who might need a similarly skilled developer.
Your dismissal of the education system is a little sad too but as a non-American, I'm not in a position to judge the situation. Despite the bad rep education systems get, I think the benefits of formal education can't be understated. It's not just the skills you learn directly from courses but the critical analysis and other soft skills that you pick up which are often most valuable. I'm glad that you seem to have the interest to direct yourself toward new knowledge - that's just as valuable and not orthogonal to formal education.
I had a look at your Github and, IMHO, it's not something that would cause me to hire or partner with you. That is one person's random opinion on the Internet though so please don't take it as rude or disheartening. You are writing code and it is interesting, that's a great start especially for someone as young as yourself. Keep writing code when you can and I'm sure you'll end up doing something you love.
Good luck and I hope you get some good advice from this thread but remember that you should put your health and basic needs first. Passion and repositories usually aren't enough to pay the rent.
And do your research before job interviews. Understand the ins and outs of the company, their competition. I turn down people who I can tell haven't checked out our website let alone the industry prior to applying.
someone i know worked in a general store in his teens, he's been running his own cafe business for 20 years now - working in the store taught him almost everything he needed to know to run a cafe.
Lastly, I've heard good success stories of people who've been to dev bootcamps (such as Hacker School etc.) which excel in getting you competent enough for an entry level job in a tech company. A simple Google search would help you find a couple near your area. Save up for it and consider giving that a shot as well.
All the best!
Slowly but surely I would bid for and receive more lead development work. At minimum wage people would clamor for my attention and time, interest really dropped off around $30-40 an hour and people started to get pushy about productivity and "how long is this going to take?" .
What you don't say is how you've looked for work and what happened. Do you apply and never get called back? Do you get interviews,but no offer? Are you willing to relocate or does it have to be remote work?
If you want a simple business model that works, sell t-shirts on a high pedestrian traffic area or tourist trap area (pier 39 sf). You may even clean people's car windows for tips and pay at gas stations if you ask the owner|manager & explain (many gas stations are independently owned.. Expect to have to visit 10-15 stations to get approval and be super sincere). It's generic hard work, but it's doable without skill or funding. Also sign up for TaskRabbit for more skilled jobs that could pay more. (See a pattern.. Try lots of things and hustle to get to higher paying gigs.). Btw playing up youth leads to money... Stay clean, shave, youthful attire and get a haircut if needed... You're the product if you offer a service. (Either look professional or super pathetic, in between leads to less cash.)
Some religious organizations will help you, others like most of those in Silicon Valley, only do happy-clappy and no social service volunteering as do others in poorer areas. In fact if you ever had to bet outright, don't bother begging from rich people, beg from lower/middle class areas.
If it's a super emergency in the US, apply for food stamps and general assistance at your local social services agency. They'll usually give it to you the same day in the form of an EBT card that works at Costco, grocery stores and pharmacies. It's a pittance, but it will keep you alive if you budget it very carefully. (Beware: massive fees at almost every ATM. Always get cash back at stores instead.) They may even throw in medical insurance if you're broke enough. (I was a teacher in a minority area and had to help emancipated students get food and get to school... I've seen almost everything. :( ). Rationalize going on the dole as a buffer that you will pay back through taxes many times over later, or to wealth and minimal taxes and let the middle class handle that.
Cut your expenses (don't eat out) and travel as least as possible. Maybe buy a cheapish van and live in it instead of paying rent. Cancel all those monthly Internet services (games, Netflix, Hulu, spotify), perhaps even phone service. Use coffee shops for power and data, maybe go Skype / google voice only. Cut luxury prepared foods too. Shelter, food and transportation (gas) are the actual necessities... Everthing else is a choice to rationalize excessive consumerism. (Stop smoking, drinking and latte habits if present... This is where most poor people hemorrhage money and may harm their health too. For blanks sake don't drink or do drugs but do get good sleep, your judgement (wits) needs to be perfect or one mistake on the street will kill you... You need to be making the best possible decisions as often as possible to bootstrap yourself back to where you want to be.)
Don't count on a startup for income... It's always a long shot / crapshoot and most stories are pure survivor bias hiding the work, pain and luck involved.
I'm going to get that book, and read it, and try to remember to contact you once I have. We can chat about it. I like your thinking. Thank you!
No worries. Stay out of trouble. G'd luck ;)
Go find any job you can get, most of my friends did best buy retail. Get your GED then do 1 year of community college taking intro CS classes. Do that and list out all your github stuff in a portfolio, then you will seem much more desirable and at least a defendable risk to take on.
I think school is for the most part total bullshit and you don't learn much for the amount of time and money you invest in it. All the best stuff I know I taught myself because I was interested or on the job. I have a masters degree is CS and teach community college CS classes, I did it not for the knowledge but to open opportunities for myself which others might not consider me for because I'd look like the risky option compared to others applying for the same job. In many places management and hiring processes are just as broken as the educational system.
two important additions i'd like to mention about community college:
1) it allows networking and access to employment opportunities that may not have existed prior. (job fairs, lab employment, on-site training, random placements, etc)
2) it opens doors for bigger and better academic opportunities, which compound the effects of the first point.
3) It allows entry for a class of jobs that OP was previously un-allowed to even apply for: "BS minimum/5+ years experience in relevant field"
Just apply. Stop hesitating. I sense way too much questioning from you regarding your own skill level and how you fair out there.
If you only have a month to come up with some income, you need to get a job doing construction, mowing lawns, etc. Just do something to eat while you apply for dev positions.
And keep populating your GitHub account. That never hurts.
And as immoral as it seems, DO NOT be afraid to lie a little. A lot of people here will dismiss the need for white lies in reaching most levels of success, even if that success is landing a dev position that pays 50k. Don't listen to those people. You need money and a place to grow -- you need to be just as relentless and dogged as your competition is. In America, that competition is a lot of kids who want green cards, a lot of kids who have degrees, and a lot of kids who have no heart when it comes down to grabbing opportunities. Don't overdo it. But it really won't hurt to say that you're a little better at what you do than you actually are. It wouldn't hurt to say you've built a few IRC bot clients a few years ago when you didn't (be prepared to explain how you did that on the spot, though).
Nothing about the wild teaches us that hunting is easy. Just because we're civilized animals, don't believe for one moment that it's not just as harsh in society when you're trying to eat as it is out in the wilderness.
Finally: It seems like you already know this, but just to reinforce this value: don't be ashamed to take a job that you'd normally considered beneath your skill set or potential. Ever.
Good luck, my man.
Hide all social media you own unless it has to do with code and it's clean. No one really needs to know about your atheism and your thoughts on the caveats of modern society. Despite being unable to deny someone of employment based on such opinions, people do. All someone would have to do with you is say "he doesn't qualify because of his level of education," when all they really mean is, "I hate people with his political/religious views."
Take your job search as seriously as possible.
I'm going to survive either way, but if I can get coding work instead of lawn mowing, that seems better to me! Either way, I'll do what I need to, like everyone has to. I guess gloating a little bit wouldn't hurt about some things, and I hear what you're saying. I just couldn't take having my reputation ripped to shreds over a lie; So I stay cautious.
I've only denied one job that was offered and that was one for minimum wage code work. It was at a time where I didn't need the work, however.
Have a good one!
1. You need to make money somehow. Worst case scenario you go to work at something like LaborReady or Manpower. It's exhausting work but if you show up and put in a little effort you'll always have work. For a little while I was on a request list for companies that used Labor Ready. It doesn't take much to stand out from the crowd there.
2. You need to get exposure. This can happen through Github, OSS projects, and your blog. But most important find your niche. Become an expert in something that there aren't many experts in. I got my first real job because I became expert at Perl at a time when there weren't many people claiming to be experts in Perl. It can be a language, Framework, technology stack, whatever. After you're first full time job though you will gain contacts and a network. You can then play that out into career growth.
Nothing is guaranteed but you have options.
The bad thing is that they don't pay you very much.
If it can be used to encourage others it is a net win, yeah?
It's sort of a quasi startup. The company is established but the software side of things is new. I'm helping to bootstrap their dev team with my brother.
Does anyone know of any similar programs elsewhere in the country? (Looks like the OP is in Georgia)
Although you can do so much with your programming prowess, going to college would only help. See if you can get into community college. Spend an year or two there, work hard, make friends, and then transfer out to a better school.
Otherwise, just keep looking and programming, you seem really passionate about it and started at a very young age (I begun programming when I was 22). If you really need some money, try anything that pays your rent/food/etc. and on the side keep looking for programming gigs.
I don't think it is a matter of luck, so I will just wish you a good night of sleep and a more relaxed mind.
Sorry about my english, lack of practice hurts that much.
Doing a dig on *.github.io shows github.fastly.net so probably thats why you're seeing that.
When I was in a community college, I was under the impression that it was not too hard to get some financial aid. Would it be possible for you to work part-time while studying?
I advised him to take a programming course at the local community college, but I told him the greatest value he'd get was almost certainly not what he would learn in class, but the connections he would make with students and faculty.
Fortunately for him (and for my reputation as a sage) before the first semester was over the boss of one of his fellow students literally knocked on his door to recruit him.
At the time he was sleeping on his brother's couch. Don't be afraid to ask for help from family if it's available, it can be crucial, and one day you'll return the favor.