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Ask HN: How much money do I ask for?

6 points by salarynegging ↗ HN
I've reached the final stage of interviews for a mid-level dev job.

The interviewer asks me how much money I want to be paid. Having read patio11's essay about salary negotiation, I know not to give a number first. Unfortunately, after attempting to get past the question without answering, I realize that I am not patio11, and cannot get past the question without a lot of awkward silence. I crack and give a number.

How do I know how much money to ask for? Assuming that this is my first non-internship full-time dev gig, and that this job is not in San Francisco, and that I do not have any data about how much this company might pay mid-level devs.

14 comments

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zorrb
patio11 is correct.

You should always try to come from the frame of you being excited about the opportunity and first want to make sure it's a good fit. The onus isn't on you to give a number, and in fact it's pretty ridiculous for them to demand it.

If you've reached the final stages you should be getting an offer letter with a salary amount and then you can negotiate from there. That not happening sounds strange.

With all that said it's pretty straightforward to use a site like glassdoor to see what salaries are at similiar jobs in the area. I see you made a new account just to ask this, iss this a larger company?

salarynegging
It is a large company that opened a new office in a different city, but there are no salaries online from positions in this new office.

I can get an idea of how much a software engineer at the same company in, say, San Francisco makes, but of course I'll be making less here because of the difference in the cost of living.

My default number would be the median salary for a software engineer in my area, but to be honest, I'm a more valuable employee than the average engineer in my area, and think that after this lengthy interview process, my prospective employer agrees.

I've been in the awkward "I need a number situation" and have missed out on a lot of money because of it. One time, I even gave $X, and my interviewer came back with $X - ($X * 0.05). After a month of working at this place, I realized that I could have asked for twice as much money.

brudgers
There's no reason to assume that you will make less simply because of location. Indeed, if there are fewer qualified candidates locally than might be found in San Francisco, then perhaps you're in a position to negotiate for more money. People aren't interchangeable, if someone in SF could do the work, they wouldn't be looking for someone where you live.

The company's quick alternative is to move someone from another location. Not only is such a person unlikely to take a pay cut based on location, they may ask for more. And certainly will ask for relocation expenses.

Relocation expenses, recruiter fees, etc are all part of the company's budget, not just salary. Don't sell yourself short.

Good luck.

mkaziz
Is it bad to just give them a number?
joe-m
If your number is below theirs, you potentially just cost yourself a chunk of salary. If you aim too high to avoid this outcome, you could look delusional.
kohanz
That's why it is recommended to thoroughly research and understand your market value in the location and field that you are negotiating. Talk to other developers in the area, research online, etc. - finding out reasonable salary expectations is not impossible.
Jeremy1026
I typically reply with, "quarter-mil." Then wait. Typically they will respond with something that hints to their budget so I can give a more informed number. My initial number is high enough that they know I'm not being serious, but opens up the number discussion.
debacle
Have you ever had a development job? You can give them a number without putting yourself in a position of having given them a number, e.g. "Previously I was making $x" or "I know the salary range for developers in my area is $y to $z."
zorrb
"I know the salary range for developers in my area is $y to $z."

This is a great suggestion. Shows you're savvy, doesn't give anything away and gets the ball rolling.

jrjarrett
So here's a related question - if you hold firm and do not give a number, get an offer, and it's substantially below where you currently are/what you feel you are worth, how do you negotiate from that position?

Can you even?

debacle
You literally can't even.

</snark>

In reality, you can negotiate from any position. A master negotiator can pull an ask for 60k followed by an ask for 100k without batting an eye. Most people are not master negotiators and tend to only negotiate their salary a few times in a decade.

The best way to negotiate is to hold all the cards, but even if you lay everything on the table, you can still hold the company over the coals if you know what to say or how to say it.

chrisbennet
Company: "What salary are you looking for?"

You: "As much as possible. How much have you got?" :-)

In my experience, places will pre-qualify candidates through the recruiter (the recruiter won't send them someone they can't afford) or HR will ask you for a range before you start interviewing (so they don't waste everyone's time).

The last time I was asked by a hiring manager what sort of range I was looking for, it went like this:

Company: "What sort of salary range are you looking for."

Me: "125-135K"

Company" "Our salary for a Senior Dev tops out at 122K"

Me: "That's not my problem." :-)

Company: (Smiling) "You're right."

gumby
Did they use an outside recruiter? In that case the recruiter should know the size, and if they are (as is typical) on commission, are incentivized to suggest to you a number at the high end of the range since their commission will be higher. They are also incentivized to not suggest a number too high for you but sadly most are not that clued in.

Since this is your first full time gig, you can always say so (since they know already from your resume) and simply say "I don't know what's a reasonable wage in this city; I'm excited to work for you and expect to be treated fairly". You can find from glassdoor what other companies in that city are paying -- if they are in the neighborhood of those prices, go for it.

After all if you later find out they are screwing you you can use your experience to go find a better, better paying job. In the mean time you can learn stuff and do good work for them -- once you leave (for whatever reason) you can do so with your head high.

kamphey
If a number is what they are looking for, give them a number. It's been found that those who say "1 million dollars!" in negotiations like you're talking about end up getting more.