Ask HN: Techniques for surviving a job you loathe?

For me, the joys of children trumped job fulfillment - my work became a way to make a reasonable income as my day revolved around my family.

Perhaps this may work for you as you make prudent steps to find a better work environment.

It may sound trivial, but the first thing I'd do is ensure your diet is in check and that you're getting enough exercise. Being unhappy in other aspects of your life can really make a crappy job seem even crappier.

A 13-14 hour work day sounds pretty daunting. Could the pressure you're putting on yourself with the startup be making your day job even more unbearable? Your concerns about being beaten to market are understandable, but remember that there's almost definitely as much (if not more) work to be done when you actually get your product to market. It likely won't be a picnic, so making sure you balance your time between work/pleasure now is important.

And one last thing - if people can get away with sleeping or playing games on their phones all day, it sounds like a pretty 'lax' working environment. It sounds like it has the potential to be whatever you make it.

Sorry if I've stated the obvious & good luck!

An easiest solution how to make your life meaningful and job less boring, and many people overlook it -- is to enjoy doing your hobby when possible and as much as possible. In perfect conditions your job would be your hobby, but often that isn't possible.

If there is a way to change your job -- don't hesitate much and find anything better or similar but closer to your heart. Again perfectly it would be own business but not many people are business type, and stable salary is often preferred -- so pick one which you would like even if it doesn't pay that much, but leaves more free time for hobby or side project.

That is assumed your health and physical conditions are good enough to not cause more problems.

I can relate, it is hard to balance the loathing/apathy, ambition, and family. Family comes first, so maybe the hours spent on the side project needs to be re-evaluated. If you have a relaxed environment, maybe you can layer your work and side project. Maybe you might find a coworker who also can help out. I would recommend talking to your manager to see what options are available (less hours, more pay, more challenging work). I like to believe good managers exist who would be able to help (somewhere, maybe just not at your place).

I try to make challenges at work by looking at things another way (e.g. switch a programming language or ask for another opinion). That will only increase stress though, so be careful because you might be in a good place if the work is easy and expectations are low.

What is your goal for the side project? Money, experience, or curiosity? Can you find another way to either get more money or more experience that won't involve you spending an extra 5 hours?

I can let you know that in my case I spent a small time looking around and evaulating options ultimately finding a slightly better job. Be optimistic.

You might think about keeping an eye out for jobs in higher-ed if there are any colleges or universities nearby. At least in the US, higher-ed jobs typically have generous vacation benefits and a better than average work culture. Unfortunately, they pay less than market, but for a lot of people, it's a fair trade. A couple extra weeks of vacation a year isn't the be-all, end-all, but it does go a long way toward moving the needle on a side project. Long-term, maybe figure out how to move near an economic hub--which I realize is easier said than done.

i doubt this is worth much but i've been in a similar situation and this is how i dealt with it:

1. try thinking about your life in 5 yr chunks - a steady paycheck to pay off my mortgage really fast (secure future) and manageable/flexible work hours to maximise time building a foundation for life with my little one before she turns 10 is a wise but dull way to spend a few years. knowing it's worth it, and why, may help with the grind.

2. find a minimum $$ number you can live with and then find the smallest company/association/NFP that will pay this. small companies may not need you to go deep, but they _love_ people that can go wide. make sure flexibility in time/location are agreed up front - see 1. Go wide in the weirdest way you can think of every single time ie, become their economics guru by focusing on the data visualisation first, not the SQL queries. refuse to use a spreadsheet at work. write reports in html and distribute as a package. organise an industry conference and grow it. seriously, you'd be surprised how much lattitude you can get if you actively pick to work for people that _want/need_ initiative.

3. understand stakeholders and how they influence the decisions your boss will make. see 1 and 2. try and frame every proposal as something that is both interesting to you and as something that will make your boss look good. build trust. be aware of being taken advantage of but remember 99% of people are reasonable so don't be too paranoid. creating and launching things is a habit not something you choose to do on a whim.

4. don't sweat the small stuff. it's just $$ - enjoy what you can and treat it as a process. understand where you're going, not where you are.

5. personal sanity - build or invest in something that can't be (easily) hacked by software. this is moat between your future business and the leech competitors. personal relationships are in this category as are delivery chains or quality>quantity. design and distribute a small range of programmable toys - partner with your local high school and build the reputation first etc etc...

6. look behind you occasionally. if you're not careful, you only look at the people ahead of you and how much more successful/rich/pretty/talented they are - considering how much of this is due to dumb luck, this will only make you depressed. stop occasionally and turn around - there are vast numbers of people around the world thinking exactly the same @#$@#$ thing about you.

7. again with the little ones. because it's important and you don't get a do-over. don't let their childhood memories be 'mum/dad was always busy' - when they're 12ish, they will barely want to be in the same room with you anyway ;-)

8. be with your partner - they're with you for a reason, make sure you don't just assume that will always be the case.

hope it works out for you.

I've been there. There are actually two different issues in your situation: the boring job you can't leave, and the exciting job you can't start. You have to pick one, and go pedal-to-the-metal.

If you think your moonlighting has merit but you feel overwhelmed, look for remote partners who can work with you, and/or go hunting for finance. Finance is critical, because it will allow you to part ways with DumbCo without putting you and your family into hardship. If you can't face the idea of asking around for money, then you'll likely never be suited for business anyway, so just give up and dedicate yourself to the family or to bettering the company you work for, or to find a better (remote) job -- that's more or less what I did, back in the day; as depressing as it sounds, it worked out OK.

Btw, if at any point in time your employer (pedestrian web-design agency, by any chance?) takes you to task for you being "distracted", taking too many personal calls etc, turn it around as their fault: they clearly cannot motivate you, and anyway everyone else is playing on their phones.

The alternative to all this is just to put your head down and revolutionise the company you work for. Do things the way you think they should be done, the way that will result in higher productivity. Believe it or not, a lot of micromanagers simply don't have the bottle to repeat a challenge more than once, and after a while they'll probably leave you alone or recognise your approach actually has merits.

Both scenarios are really a way to say that you'll have to man up. There is no easy way out; but nothing risked, nothing gained...

Read? Sounds like a sad place but if you're really in a place where you can 'play games on your phone and sleep' then create enough automation to meet what ever goals your manager sets for you, and then start learning more stuff. You might also find organizational dynamics and management books fun to see how they apply in your current situation.

Some of the other folks there might be in the same boat you are, they are also your potential hires if you started your own company in the same area, so get to know them, figure out their strengths and weaknesses, what they are motivated by and what doesn't motivate them.

Talk to the managers and see what they are trying to get done (you mention they micro manage a lot) perhaps you can puzzle out what the group of them have been tasked to accomplish. If you like solving puzzles that can be entertaining for a while.

Look around for things that don't work well (are the printers always out of paper? Phones constantly ringing with no one answering?) see if you can engineer a way to solve one of those problems.

The bottom line is take ownership of challenging yourself to do something productive, don't wait for someone to either tell you what to do or "give you permission" to do that.

Start interviewing elsewhere - anywhere you can find. Even if you don't plan to leave, having another option boosts morale and gives you more confidence to discuss concerns with your current company. It also gives you leverage in negotiating with other places you interview at - even if your local options are limited, maybe you can reach a remote-work arrangement with a company elsewhere in Australia. (Also: don't be discouraged if your first few interviews don't work out. Interviewing is a skill, and like any other skill it improves with practice.)

Take time for yourself and your personal development. While working on your startup at work is extremely inadvisable (see your legal concerns above)...if you feel like the pace at work is slow, do your work as quickly as possible and use the remaining time to move forward in some way. Learn a new language. Solve programming contest problems. Start a Toastmasters chapter at work. These sorts of things increase your sense of personal control over your situation; I cannot overemphasize how important that is.

Isolation is another dangerous trap. Find local developer meetups or board game nights or friendly pickup sports events. Talk with others about your situation. (For the same reason, asking here on HN is an excellent step to take. I'd wager most of us have encountered some variant of your problem. Also, asking people who aren't close friends can be surprisingly liberating, as you don't have as much emotional investment in their response.)

Hope this helps :)

Once due to life circumstances I was stuck for a few years in a job I hated for much of the same reasons (limited growth, very bored, yet simultaneously very stressed due to ridiculous deadlines). One thing that helped me get by was to have my employer pay for me to learn new things. I really wanted to learn a particular programming language, so gradually over time I built up a compelling case that learning this language would help the business. And it did help the business, especially after my employer paid for me to become an expert. After my life circumstances changed and I was able to move on I had a great new skill on my resume that propelled me to much better opportunities.

So my point is you should try to turn your current predicament into a launchpad for bigger and better things.

My opinion is that you're putting undue stress on yourself with the startup. Your number one problem is that your 9-5 ain't so good and you need either another job or another income stream.

Startup income isn't going to happen over night, so I think your efforts are not worth it given you're already stretched with the 9-5. I would be spending time on looking for either another job or a remote gig so you can give the 9-5 the flick.

Have you considered moving to Sydney or Melbourne? There are a lot of development jobs in these cities that pay well for people with experience.

Don't worry about the start up, I think. It's like worrying about wining second division on the lottery. Only work on it if you find it cathartic. Find another job, move cities if you need to.

TBH The best advice I can give is to move closer to Melbourne. I don't care for it here, but there's not a lot of dev jobs back home in QLD, either.

I had some jobs that weren't that interesting on their own, but I found it was much more interesting if I made challenges for myself. Sometimes I joked that I was trying to automate myself out of a job, but then I tried to do that. Sometimes I'd just do silly things like try to game the system by solving as many rally/whatever agile points as possible in a day, just to make a point about how silly some of that stuff was. Sometimes I'd write scripts and stuff in a language I didn't know well to learn more. I guess it depends on your environment and rules, they may be more strict, but usually there's a way to make boring work more interesting by tying it to something else that helps you grow, or challenges you in some way.

Sorry for terse list form, but I'm knackered after a long day and still have plenty to do. But I sympathize with your plight so here goes.

#1 Diet and exercise. Healthy body, healthy mind.

#2 Take the paychecks. If you can phone it in at work, and your employer is undeserving, then make money for no mental effort.

#3 Consider full time remote work. This is more and more viable. You can work for an awesome company with driven and smart people right from your home, or local library, or beach in Tahiti.

#4 Exit strategy. Focus on maximizing money and ease to move into something else. Get planning, and be selfish and strategic.

Sorry for terse list form, but I'm knackered after a long day and still have plenty to do. But I sympathize with your plight so here goes.

#1 Diet and exercise. Healthy body, healthy mind. #2 Take the paychecks. If you can phone it in at work, and your employer is undeserving, then make money for no mental effort. #3 Consider full time remote work. This is more and more viable. You can work for an awesome company with driven and smart people right from your home, or local library, or beach in Tahiti.

What city are you in? Sounds like Hobart.

I know both Allianz Insurance and Westpac leverage Mainframe and Java. Perhaps look at either of those companies? They both have Melbourne offices, so might be viable? I know Allianz has work-from-home options, so that might be an avenue if you can't commute, or you're in Tasmania.

And yes, I've hated working at some companies in the past. The best advice I have is to just to start looking for anything else you can find.. At least it's a fresh place and a new chance. If you're lucky, a slight pay bump too :)

I have a slightly different point of view from most of the comments here so far.

1. Your #1 priority really has to be your family. I'm not assuming your family isn't important to you -- clearly it is -- but, it has to be more important than building a product or starting your own company. You're spending at minimum 65 hrs/week doing "not family", and that's a bit too much. You have 1.5 young kids, and what you do now, as a parent, will shape their future for the next several decades. It will change how they relate to other people, how they raise their own kids, and so on. If you want to have an impact on the world, focus on raising your kids.

2. So your job is your job. I mean, separate your self-worth from your employer. Show up, do what they ask, collect a paycheck, go home. One of the best things I ever did was step out of the computer industry for a few years and pick up a bunch of different jobs, including retail. I will still happily put in a lot of extra effort for any employer that wants it and is willing to reward me for it, but I can also show up every day, do the job, and go home, and have lots of other things to care about other than what's going on at work.

3. That said, if you can't learn how to do that, just show up and do the work and go home and forget about it, then you have to keep looking for a new job. That really should be your spare time gig, IMO, before other projects. It becomes your responsibility as a parent to try to find a job that values you and wants to pay you more so that you can provide more financial stability for your family -- and the best way to do that is with a better job, not a startup. HN is about the worst place to get this kind of life advice, because it's heavily skewed towards the attraction of risk-taking and the success stories when those risks pay off, but the reality is that the odds are not in your favor. There are a lot of bright and talented and ambitious people here on HN -- thousands, at least -- and of those, maybe only a handful have found something resembling wealth and stability, and of those, I'd bet most of them went through some pretty bad times. Do you really want to try to juggle all of that and a family at the same time?

I'm not saying you shouldn't work on your project at all, but that your priorities should probably be family, better job, and then project, in that order.

And, the consistent advice on HN is not to worry too much about being beaten to market. If someone else gets there first, it gives you an opportunity to see if there is a market at all for your product without having to suffer through the market research yourself (which these days typically consists of, "gosh, I really hope someone buys my product/service"), and you get to see what kind of mistakes they make, and learn from them. If it's a good market, there will be room for at least two of you.

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There's a thing I do whenever I'm faced with really difficult life decisions. I sit back, let things get really quiet, close my eyes, and I try to see my futures stretching out in front of me like roads going in different directions. Each road represents a decision, and stretching out past my decisions aren't my fantasies but the most realistic outcomes I can guesstimate for each.

So, I would close my eyes, and I would see a road going off to the left, and that road goes like this: work full time for job I dislike, work hard on startup/side project, try to raise family on the weekends ... I am tired, and I am stressed out, because it's impossible to do all of that without getting tired and stressed out. Stress puts a strain on my relationship with my family. Project is completed and launched, and now I try to juggle a full time job, running a business, and raising a family. My health suffers. My oldest kid is 5 years old, and the business is still going. It hasn't failed, but it hasn't been a wild success either. I still pick up consulting jobs here and ther...

My situation is very similar to yours, am employed in a big enterprise software company and the work is very demoralizing. I do 2 things in my spare time, work on a product of my own, and do my own consulting business (development and high scalability architecture design), these 2 keep me sane and it actually makes me look forward to going home so I can do my own thing.

In the office, I try to help out the junior folks as much as I can, might as well make the best of a bad situation and maybe earn a bit of reputation as the go to person for software architecture. Also don't let go of your health, even if you don't like your job, no sense dragging down other aspects of your life with it. I tend to exercise every other day (alternating between cardio and free weights), and don't forget to eat healthy, it makes a huge difference in terms of your overall mood and energy level.

I think it's even worst in my place since my boss doesn't listen to other people's opinions and is more of a dictator. The result is something similar to the Fizz Buzz Enterprise Edition.

I'm a college student and I'm also working as a software engineer.I'm somewhat close to being as occupied as you are. I'm also working on a side project while at home. I think the key to managing my life is prioritizing. You have to get good at prioritizing stuff when you are living a busy life. And the better you prioritize the better output you get.Also try not to get burn'd out while you are doing all of the stuff you do and don't forget to go to the gym and just wreck yourself there(read stay fit). Also try to sleep well. There's no general formula, just survive and win. About the work : I'm in the opposite situation where my work requires me to be constantly focused and come up with solutions, and my tactics are : give it all you got.

Focus on the things that make you happy — and get people interested in making you happy!

Maybe it’s being able to help a good person save $100 they don’t need to spend. Maybe it’s spending time with your co-workers and reminiscing old times. Maybe it’s being able to play with your kids. Maybe it’s revisiting a hobby you put down years ago, or going on a vacation with your significant other.

Once you’ve found those things, tell it to people! Tell it friends! Tell it to your family! Let them see what makes you happy, and when you aren’t happy, let them guide you to why you do what you do. Maybe they’ll suggest new things you’d be interested in.

Yes, there are sweeping changes you make in life. However, you will always find small things that just suck. Focus on what makes you happy and find people who are interested in your well-being. If you still feel stuck, start by doing something (anything) differently.

Hey! If you're from where I think you are you should definitely make an appearance and a local meetup a friend (@joshgillies) and I run monthly called Web Developer 42°. We have a couple of locals talking about anything from database security to git flow to front end design tooling. Beer, soft drink and pizza provided - and it's free!

Knowing local people who love what you love can make a big difference. Whilst dev jobs are few and far between down here, they do crop up - usually in smaller consulting firms. All of the consulting firms down here generally have a presence at #wd42. And everyone that meets really cares about the sorts of things on the Joel test - so any potential employers you may meet here are on the same page.

We'll be putting out the speaker list next week but in the meantime hit up our website (http://web.dev42.co/) and maybe follow us on twitter. If you want an email reminder email me and I'll add you to the announcement list.

If you are from here, shoot me an email (in profile) and we can catch up for a #pubhack, #coffeehack or similar. I'm not a hirer - but I love to code and enjoy coding with others.

Edit: I thought you meant Hobart (as it is literally at the bottom end of Australia) but was mistaken. Either way if anyone is down here on the last Wednesday of any month come to #wd42 for a beer. We're friendly only some of us have 2 heads!

> My home town is literally at the bottom end of Australia. Beautiful place but there are very few development jobs and no paying startups here.

You should work to go to events like Startup Grind Melbourne, or at least such events in Adelaide. Network, approach people and introduce yourself.

> I fear that someone will beat me to market (trying for bare minimum viable product).

This shouldn't be a big worry. Even if it happens, move on to the next thing.

> I also fear burn out (has happened before)

Pull back on your startup work if this happens. A job you don't like, new baby and your own startup you're working on solo and in a rush as someone might beat you to market sounds like a recipe for burnout. Your startup idea can be put on the back burner when the other things take precedence. You fear burn out, so you should spend less time on it. You're not really cutting down time from it any how, your brain is going 24/7. I often have programming breakthroughs after waking up in the morning, or coming home from a dinner. I guess I'm unconsciously working on the problem even when doing something else.

Maturity might be part of these things. As people get older, that they hear BS at work becomes less important.

A proper perspective helps as well. You say "the managers are micromanagers and the developers sit at the bottom of the org chart". This may be true, but you should look at it with equanimity. Just think logically how to further your agenda. If it's unfair or illogical that developers sit at the bottom of the org chart in a software company, getting emotional about it will not serve you. It is something you have no control of, you can only vote with your feet, and for now you've voted to stay.

> & I doubt selling remote work (if I can find a reliable income stream) to my partner.

I'm confused. You think your partner would stop you from working remotely with a reliable income stream even though you're miserable in your current job?