Ask HN: What to do when all you have is talent?
I started in IT 15 years ago as a help desk jockey for a small ISP back in the dial-up days. Since then I have done everything from low level hardware support to leading a large government project installing a new telephony/messaging solution for a school system.
Here's the thing: I dropped out of high school and got a G.E.D. my Junior year. I have always had a weird knack for learning on the fly (are the rest of you like this too?). I always bluffed my way in to jobs I was completely unqualified for and pulled it off quite well.
Then the recession hit my area particularly hard so I tried the local technical college but decided it wasn't worth the debt or time learning stuff I already knew.. Lately, I have been wasting my time trying to break into IT Security (always my primary interest), with no luck because my security experience isn't professional. I was able to self-study for both my Network+ and Security+ (gotta start somewhere) and did surprisingly well. I'm proud that I was able to score 895/900 on the Security+ exam after just reading for two weeks but these certifications didn't seem to make a difference.
I'll get to the point. I can't seem to get my foot in the door anywhere to do anything from level one help desk work to anything else. Add a new family to the picture and you can see why I need to make a move now. What's someone like me to do? I am talented (some past coworkers and managers actually called it freakish), but you cant put talent on your resume. I'd relocate anywhere on earth for a stable job. I pull a deer-in-the-headlights every time I try to find a new skill to learn. Too many options. I don't know what's in demand. What can people still turn in to a long-term career? What area or "discipline" in IT shows promise for a career?
137 comments
[ 2.5 ms ] story [ 59.5 ms ] threadI did very badly in college, and majored in American History. About three years ago, I quit my job and learned how to code. I was focused on machine learning and data analysis. I faced the same problem you did -- no way to prove I had any skills.
The way to stand out to employers in your field is to do things that are publicly visible. It's hard to judge someone's talent from a resume, but it's easy from a github repo.
Some ideas for you:
* Contribute to open source projects in the space you're interested in.
* Start a blog. You'd be surprised by how much sharing some of your own experience can help others, and it can raise your profile a lot.
* Lots of companies offer bug bounties -- try to find some vulnerabilities and collect some. Blog about your experiences. I don't know how hard this is, though.
* Make cool projects and share them on github. Blog about them. Post them on HN.
* Go to meetups in your area on topics that interest you. Meet people. Make cool projects with them.
* Go to hackathons if you can. They're a great way to meet people and find interesting projects.
* See if you can take on a small part-time role helping out at a startup in your field.
As for what's in demand, take your pick. I've talked to companies having trouble hiring web developers, mobile developers, and data scientists. Any of them is a good choice (again, don't know anything about IT security demand).
Thank you for posting.
I don't know if you had the same experience but I think for me the key to succeeding in this transition was to try and learn not only to 'code', but also about the engineering, quality, deployment processes surrounding code that most juniors (that I have seen) typically know little-to-nothing about.
That way, even if you have a lot to learn on-the-job, you probably won't be a burden on the rest of the team and they won't have to spend too much time holding your hand (except at code review time, but I guess that's the case with every newcomer to a project).
I also worked for myself for some time and had some experience (minor really) to help me get my foot through the door. Then when you get a job, you have an opportunity to show what you can do and after that you're just like everybody else.
No company wants to mentor anyone.
Am working as a contractor now. Thanks for taking the time to comment. I appreciate it!
Here's one rule of thumb I've been using to gauge demand. If someone's willing to hire you to use a tool even though you haven't really used it before, then the demand is there.
Another warning is that what's hot now may not be hot 5 years from now. iOS is hot right now. I'm concerned that, with Steve Jobs gone, Apple is going to implode and lose their market share. So there may be no iOS jobs 5 years from now.
Just keep sending out resumes. You'll find something eventually. It's just a numbers game.
Do you have any savings? If not, get whatever you can right now to get back. Be prepared to take something lousy and be looking to jump to something better.
They won't. Apple's vertical integration gives them a UI advantage. 'Normals' like easy-to-use things.
I don't have to tweak, I don't have to customize and I don't have to fix. Also they have a sane approach to bugfixes and security. Sure, it's not an open platform, but Android isn't really either. I don't have time to care, I've got work to do.
There are definitely some people who tolerate less polish[0]... I think I've made a category error!
[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations
Ponder that. Apple is nothing like Blackberry. Your example is totally ridiculous.
1. Play by the "rules": stockpile the degrees, certifications, awards, etc. that we all know are largely useless but are absolute requirements for signaling your way through a standard corporate job interview. If you are after a normal, boring, corporate American desk job (nothing wrong with this depending on your life situation) you must play the game by the rules. If you don't, you will delude yourself and lose opportunities to lesser talented candidates who are better at playing the game.
2. Leverage your connections: use your professional connections to bypass / skip many of the requirements set by the "rules" to get a job. This requires less of playing by the rules but means you must have a solid professional network of people that have good jobs at companies that are looking to hire and are impressed enough by your work to give you a recommendation. This is harder than it seems, even for those with good connections, but I personally have found the most success finding good jobs these way.
3. Set your own rules: start your own business. This is the toughest but allows you to completely skip the rules. It also requires the greatest amount of talent and offers the greatest amount of reward. Speaking from personal experience, however, unless you have stockpiled savings and have excellent work ethic, this is a massive risk that has the potential to destroy your savings, emotional state and family relationships.
If I were you, I'd focus on a combination of #1 and #2. Get the college degree even if you think it's useless -- I'm sure you're being rejected immediately because of a lack of college degree. If you really don't want to do that, start working your professional network for referrals or start working on a great side project that you can present at an interview that showcases your talents and makes up for your lack of degrees. #3 is the dream, of course, but I've found that there is enormous value in the stability of a regular paycheck and insurance, especially when you have dependents, despite the soul-crushing nature of corporate jobs.
Good luck.
Leveraging connections, on the other hand, is a great idea. Most jobs are not actually advertised anywhere, and if you can use your connections well you can find yourself applying for jobs with very little competition.
And I disagreed with him, which I think is okay. It's demonstrably not a requirement for all corporate jobs, so you can't make sweeping generalizations like that. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that you don't need a degree to work at companies like Citrix or Google, for example.
A friend of mine has some sort of security business, maybe I could get you in contact with him for advice at the least.
I'm currently working my first job in IT, for two years now, after having only fast food and retail jobs. How did I get here? It wasn't my college education (I'm a dropout, due to transportation and money issues at the time). College did play a big role, though.
One of my instructors saw that talent you mentioned in me, and she knew I was into Linux while the rest of the students knew only Windows. One day one of her old students called her up and asked if she knew anyone who might be a good fit for a job he was trying to fill. I was the guy she went to, and now I'm in IT.
Long story short, it might be beneficial to you to know people who know people in IT security. College may be the place to meet those connections, though there are many other ways and places to accomplish that.
I understand this might not be possible in your situation, but if you can find an evening, on-site, accelerated program at a local non-flagship state school then you might be missing an opportunity. I've known some people in similar situations for whom this approach worked out well.
I can provide some advice if this is at all plausible for you.
(edit: the comment by ferrari8608 is an excellent example of why attending an inexpensive university can be a good idea, even without finishing the degree program; you'd be surprised at the number of positions filled via "former professor" relationships).
1. Try to find a not-too-expensive, non-flagship state school ($5-9k / semester for a full course load is a good ballpark. You can bring that down a lot by doing gen eds at a community college and then registering for 1/2 or 3/4 loads for the semesters you're enrolled at the uni. Most state schools let you pay by credit hour and are good about accepting Community college credit, but make sure you get a commitment from the uni that they'll accept any CC course you take.)
2. Get in touch with an admissions person and request a one-on-one.
a. Make sure they know you're an "adult learner" and, if you can't arrange your other obligations to take day-time courses, figure out if there are evening sections of every course you'll need to graduate.
b. Inquire about scholarships, grants, and subsidized loans. Talk with your family and figure out what you feel like you're able to afford. Be frank with the admissions person about financial realities.
c. Request a one-on-one with a faculty member from the CS department. Many teaching-oriented schools will entertain this, but don't be surprised if you get turned down. If you get a meeting, start off with general questions about the faculty's expertise in security (actually this doesn't matter so much because you ultimately want a job rather than a research position, but technical stuff is a good way to break the ice). Then ask that faculty member about what the department does to help place students in internships/jobs. As an added bonus, in general, faculty are more likely to give you a good sense of the quality of the school than admissions people (who are, after all, salesmen).
3. Don't be afraid or too proud to avail yourself of free tutoring etc., and try to be a participant in the department's community (e.g., attend official department events whenever possible. In general, be seen and excel.
4. Once in CS courses at the uni, be sure to stand out and that your profs know about your interest in security and prior IT experience (great way to get leads passed your way).
Other advice regarding finances:
1. If you have to take out loans, make sure they're subsidized. Make sure that increase in lifetime earning balances out the full cost including interest. As a good rule of thumb, the total is approximately the cost of a new, low-end car. I.e., limit yourself to the amount of debt you would put into a consumable. Rationale: education has far better pay-offs than a car, but more risk.
2. If you can xfer courses from a community college, do all those before enrolling at the uni. In the mean time you might find a good job (at which point you can choose to attend the uni or not).
3. Make sure your family is 100% on board and that you're confident you will finish the degree or get a job out of it. Be aware that, esp. if you're working during school, the time commitments and stress are going to take a toll on personal relationships.
> I can't seem to get my foot in the door anywhere to do anything from level one help desk work to anything else.
Maybe it's how you come across personally; whether that's in interviews, or cover letters, or introductions.
A good hiring process is probably in the 60/40 ratio of talent/personality. If you're a complete 0 in the personality department, you're probably not going to get hired unless you're a Carmack-level talent. Some places will skew that one way or the other, but I doubt it'll ever go more then 75/25 either way unless you find somewhere completely dysfunctional.
Saying things like:
> I always bluffed my way in to jobs I was completely unqualified for and pulled it off quite well
are usually red flags for me, personality-wise. It reeks a little of someone who constantly needs to publicly validate themselves as "the smartest person in the room," and ends up not accepting feedback very well (if at all). To me, self-reflection, the acceptance that maybe you're not as talented as you think, and striving to constantly be better are critical parts of being a professional.
It's sorta like that person in school who constantly made sure to tell everyone that they didn't study and still aced the exam - most people don't enjoy working with or talking to that person for any extended period of time.
Anyway, I'm not gonna sit here and shit on you. We've all got our things. Just maybe some food for thought.
I have worked with people like the person you probably think I am because of how that came across. I was just trying to honestly express one of the few things that I do have going for me as opposed to just listing things that I don't.
However, as the quote goes, "That's the problem with first impressions. You only get to make one." People tend to be on their guard when interacting with someone for the first time - even if that interaction is just reading a cover letter. Things that your friends wouldn't blink an eye at can easily become reasons the hiring manager tosses out your resume, and unfortunately you rarely get a chance to explain yourself or even feedback that you did something wrong.
The best part is that fixing this doesn't involve a certification program, or spending more money, or anything like that. Maybe just have a couple people read over your cover letters or do mock interviews with you (not sure where you're getting stopped in the process, so can't give specifics there). Maybe try it with someone not super close to you (maybe a former co-worker?) who'll bring up something you're saying or doing that might seem innocuous but is raising alarms somewhere.
I do get contacted for interviews and solicited for resumes on a semi-regular basis. I interview well and am quite easy to deal with on an interpersonal level.
Thing is, there seems to always be another person out there who gets in after several weeks of consideration due to a number of reasons (relocation, having no professional experience and another candidate may have done an internship, etc.)
Before you say it, because were this the other way round, I'd say it: It has much less to do with 'me' than it does with a combination of my geographical location, and being a semi-self employed consultant/contractor/whatever they call it anymore, as opposed to having had a regular day job for the last few years. [edit due to being a n00b on how to post here]
> I interview well and am quite easy to deal with on an interpersonal level.
I think most of us know when an interview goes really poorly, but my personal stance towards most interviews is that if I wasn't offered a position after an interview it's because I didn't interview well enough.
Now it may be the case that they had some ridiculous or completely arbitrary standards for the interview, and I may be fine with the fact that the interview didn't go well, but I wouldn't necessarily say I interviewed well if I wasn't offered the position.
I say 'most' because that might happen (I interviewed amazingly well and they didn't pick me for some stupid reason) once or twice, but if it's a consistent pattern than I would start looking at the common denominator.
> It has much less to do with 'me' than it does with a combination of my geographical location, and being a semi-self employed consultant/contractor/whatever they call it anymore, as opposed to having had a regular day job for the last few years.
Again I can't speak for your personal situation or pretend to understand, so take this with a huge grain of salt, but my experience with professional employment (even outside of tech) has been that these are things many companies are willing to overlook for the right candidate.
If it was something they were truly unwilling to budge on, they wouldn't have wasted the time to interview you. You would've been screened out before anyone even picked up the phone to talk to you.
Most likely, what few interviews or solicitations for resumes, then interviews that I have had have been from companies who are willing to overlook my crappy resume (again, I made it this far and never had to really write one before) to interview me. What happens after that is anyone's guess. I just do my best, follow the processes the company has in place and just haven't had any luck as of late. Thank you again for all of your input. I realize I need to update my format and rewrite it. Maybe I have been using an unusual style? I'll have to look in to this tonight. [edit: because I didn't know how I accidentally formatted that text.] Oops.
- first, if this is indicative of how you usually behave, you may in fact be more guilty of smartest-man-in-the-room syndrome than you realize. - second, if you do get interviews, your resume is likely not the problem, but I would still consider how you come across to others. In what I've read of you, I'm sorry, but you're not coming across very well.
Yes, Chainsaw did give me some good advice. I thanked him for his candor immediately as well.
Why do you assume his advice was ignored and assume that I am one of those "I'm awesome, why won't people hire me?" types?
I understand that, after getting responses assuming I still did low level end user technical support work for example, I should have been more clear about my little back-story.
That's on me. Maybe I am not coming across well. Even so, comments like these that are full of assumptions are making you come across just as badly.
about: 31 year old unemployed with 13 years experience. Trying (unsuccessfully) to break in to the IT Sec field. Been hacking and learning security in my free time since I was about sixteen. An enthusiast..
First, remove your age. I can't begin to tell you how unprofessional that makes you look. Second, the entire second sentence makes you look bad - like others have screened you and passed. The fourth sentence doesn't add anything. And finally, you should put in some contact info.
Sorry if I'm coming across a little strong, but I know where you are, I know it sucks and I want to help.
- Enthusiastic self-taught hacker with 13 years of experience. Currently seeking work in the IT Sec field: drop me an email at xxx@xxx to find out how I can help you.
Not because I am careless or think that I am somehow the "smartest man in the room". I was really intimidated when writing the OP. I have a lot of respect for this site and the people who are regular contributors.
That being said, I think that those of you who have been critical without being constructive have done so, albeit unintentionally, due to your own preconceived ideas and assumptions. Perhaps due to your own negative experiences in the past with people you didn't like in your own careers.
All I can really say when responding to negative comments: "first time caller, long time listener. Sorry about the sloppy OP. I had no idea that it would get noticed, much less be this active."
My description on the profile doesn't look good because I didn't know what to put in it as I have been lurking here for a long time but never posted.
I appreciate you all taking time from your lives to try to contribute. Had I known this OP was going to generate this kind of activity, I would have actually put some thought in to this stuff. Please, don't take that the wrong way. I mean all of this with respect.
This is one thing I would question about your self-assessment. What evidence are you relying on for this statement?
The reason I say this is that, (I believe) research shows that anything beyond the first 30 seconds or so during an interview actually doesn't matter. Obviously this is a statistical thing and may not apply in any given concrete situation, but if you're going to loads of interviews, you probably want to maximize your statistical probability of getting hired.
Having said that, I just realized that what I started considering as the problem (my resume) may not be what needs work. In another comment, the statement was made that companies are willing to overlook certain things for the right candidate.
Perhaps my garbage resume is being overlooked I make it past the first telephone or face to face interview. I make it far enough to get that sick feeling in the pit of your stomach when you finally get the news that someone else was selected anyway. I'm sure I am not the only one here who gets that, right? Sorry, to your question, that is my basis for that statement.
You say and believe that, obviously. But do you have independent and (above all) disinterested corroboration?
(I think the experience you relate in the last paragraph might be a symptom of increasing pressure being put on the hiring part of HR and them, thus, being reluctant to reject candidates earlier.)
Make it one page. Stick to things they actually care about. Yes, this means tailoring it to each opportunity. This also means leaving things out... that's okay, I remember in my last resume leaving off some ancient Java experience from college that didn't seem relevant at the time. It became a pleasant surprise for them when they discovered that I knew more than was on the page and we started discussing the usage of JAD.
Your goal is no typos, no informal/slang language and one, neatly written page. It should look neat, clean and uniform.
You should imagine that they have a spreadsheet or checklist (they do) that matches the ad. You want to help them check off as many boxes as possible as easily as possible. Then help them do the same thing in the interview.
When you don't know, discuss what you'd do to find out. Show them what you've learned in the past and how you've figured out problems before that look like problems they're having now.
In my last interview, they started asking me what I knew about REST and I started describing the last RESTful interface I'd made. Things went very well from there.
I hope this helps.
I could totally see a "disaster" resume being a big problem. A week or two after the interview, people's impressions of you have started to fade and blend with those of the other candidates, but your resume is still in front of them in black and white.
I'm involved with hiring pretty frequently and here are some things that help me: -don't bother listing every technology you've ever worked with. It's a waste of space. It doesn't give any context. Mention them in the context of your work history. - talk about the people stuff you were successful at as well as the technical stuff. - don't just say what you did, tell me why it mattered. For example "reduced build times from one hour to five minutes which enabled team to release twice a week rather than one a month"
One thing to remember when you are involved in the hiring process, particularly with technical people is they want to be able to say yes to you. Hiring probably isn't their main job and they have a hole in their team. If you are the right person for the job, it's a win for everyone involved.
Another thing that helps is having contacts that will let you know where opportunities are. The fantastic thing about having experience is you probably know a heap of people who can help. Getting involved with the local community around whatever area you're interested in can help you meet more people. I've also gotten jobs from being on related mailing lists and applying for positions that are posted.
If you're not sure your experienced is quite right, getting involved in open source is an option for building up experience and reputation. It means you can show people what you can do and if your work gets traction and if you contribute to somebody else's project it can be a way to meet more people in the right area.
However on the off-chance that some of that is leaking into interviews or cover letters, it's probably worth remediation.
Focus only on you positive achievements. Sell yourself.
Get on daily job mailing lists from ziprecruiter, indeed, dice, and postjobfree, and apply for at least 5 jobs a day.
Good luck.
2. Buckle down and master some real skills that are in demand. It's a cop out to say there are "too many options". All you have to do is pick one you're interested in and put the time in. You have to specialize though. Security isn't specific enough, penetration testing is, or iOS/Android development, frontend web development, whatever. After just a few months of study, you could probably find someone who will hire you at a low salary in any of these jobs. Then master the specialty on the job.
If you are able to demonstrate all that talent (github, outside projects, anything else) and you are able to hold a conversation with people, there are literally thousands of openings for you.
The certifications only really matter to Washington DC (or people making money off of DC).
Apply more places, make some things on the side that demonstrate you know what you're talking about, and look for positions at large, stable companies.
And that's where you are wrong. Make sure that those coworkers and managers will back you up during your next interview and urge the prospective employer to actually ask these people about your qualification.
Good luck with everything.
> I stopped because everyone said Python (which is awesome) and I just had a rougher time learning it than JS.
Whatever you're learning, someone will come along and tell you that something else is better. Ignore them. The first programming language you learn is teaching you to program, which is far more important than which language it is. You're learning transferable skills that you'll take with you when you learn something else.
1. JavaScript is not a great language by any standard. 2. JavaScript is the most requested programming language today (just take a look at job postings!)
Going JS is like going for sure, RoR is heavily requested too, but not as much as JS. JS is like the lingua franca of the web and since most people don't even know that there are other protocols except from HTTP, if I was desperately looking for a job as a programmer I would try to learn JS as best as I can.
1. Getting a job. Know anyone you used to work with that is now at a fairly large company?
2. Getting into IT security. Ever considered going into one of the bug bounty programs, e.g. for Facebook, etc...? That'd be a good thing to put on your resume, as well as giving you some money.
first of all - why the hell are you waiting for someone to give you permission to start doing this job? if you want to do this job, just start fucking doing it.
contribute to security mailing lists and keep an eye out for opportunities. write articles. blog. go to events. write code, open source it. contribute documentation if you can't code. sell yourself as a consultant. appear to know what the hell you're talking about.
DO THE JOB.
if you don't actively participate in a community nobody is going to give a shit about you, much less hand you a career with a pretty bow on it.
I guess what I am saying is that I have been doing the job for years. Just not getting paid for it and was trying to dig out two things in the OP:
1)What the disconnect between working on your own and getting paid for doing the work was.
2)there was a different area I could/should focus on given my disadvantages(financial, disabled, etc.)
Big data and analytics are fascinating to me for example, but only because of the implications and uses of those kinds of skills I can see in a Security related capacity.
I wanted to find out if someone would yell, "You need to learn 'X' because it's useful both in some Security roles and you can work doing that as your day job at the same time." Hope that makes sense.
Nope, obviously. They sure will post on a comment thread about it though.
Sorry, This struck me as a bit over the top with the presumptions, tone, etc..
Many, many security companies don't care what your formal education is. The reason for this is simple: there aren't many (or, perhaps, any) undergraduate computer security programs that are cutting-edge and relevant enough to teach the skills needed to be a good hacker. Unless we're talking about graduate-degrees, I barely glance at a prospective hire's formal education -- there's just not enough correlation between that piece of paper and performance on the job.
What I do look for is self-motivation, passion, and drive. I know it's cliché, but you can't be great at infosec if you're just pulling the 9-5 -- it has to be something you really care about. You have to stay on top of everything.
So how does one measure passion?
Clearly, if you can talk about side-projects you've done in the security realm, that's a great start. If not, being involved with the community (such as the free and local Security BSides conferences, OWASP meetups, etc.), shows that security is something that you really care about. Those events are free (or maybe $10), and show a lot of drive.
I know your actual question was in terms of IT disciplines, not just security, but I'm confident that what I'm saying here applies to almost every selective career type. You're trying to be competitive in a tough environment, so you have to make yourself stand out. Really, really wanting something usually shows.
That said, feel free to shoot me an email if you're still interested in the security route. I'm always looking for new engineers!
In 2011 after my time in the military was through I made a decision to get into infosec. I didn't know how to code, had never been to college, and only had IT knowledge from being a typical computer geek in high school. That same year I found out there was security firm in my relatively small hometown, so I emailed them.
Since then I've been reading books, coding, and emailing that firm every 5 months or so basically asking for work. To hear that self-motivation, passion, and drive are big hiring factors to you makes all this studying I've done over the past few years worth more to me than before I read your post.
I finally got a "maybe later this year" from the technical lead, I'm crossing my fingers.
Thank you.
I'm just a dude who picked up programming a few years ago. What I'm trying to say is that I'm not special and I'm doing fine. You likely have more experience than I, so there's nothing that should prevent you from getting in a similar situation. One thing I do have for myself is confidence, so maybe that's all there is to it.
There's so much information on the web, or via books/video courses/MOOCs that there's no need to do the structured learning thing. Particularly with Python. Plus, Python is used in security to create scripts/tools.
EDIT: Example of some books, vis-a-vis Python and security (learn the basics first).
* Violent Python: A Cookbook for Hackers, Forensic Analysts, Penetration Testers and Security Engineers
* Hacking Secret Ciphers with Python
* Python Penetration Testing Essentials
* Gray Hat Python: Python Programming for Hackers and Reverse Engineers
The financial thing was more about certification training, as I was (mistakenly) under the impression that they carried more weight and would open more doors for me. Especially in the Security realm.
I had also looked at things like bloc.io but who really has that much money for that kind of training on their own? Thank you for the response!
On a sidenote though: With all those resources readily available, don't fall for the trap of being in love with preparing. I had a phase of getting stuck in a loop of doing one tutorial after another, setting up the editor again and again or generally spending too much time on minor things that make you feel like ticking checkboxes but actually don't move you forward. It happens all the time when one starts and learns somehing new - I saw it in music and audio too: People got obsessed with the tools instead of focusing on the work - whether it's that new eq or compressor (which actually isn't all that essential to the results) or starting the 17th tutorial before planning to finally tackles a real world project - in many cases those are just variations on the procrastionation theme. Just do it and learn as you go - afterwards you'll know which tools you really need.
Getting your skillet where you can meaningfully add value in the first two weeks is not necessarily trivial.
I remember when Facebook used to put, what I presume, were PK IDs from a user table in their URL query strings. Lower numbers being earlier users. Anyway, I couldn't find Mark Z, but messaged one of the early staff. I then got a friend request off him. Pretty sure if I'd been a dev at the time, I could have convinced him to get me an interview.