FedEx: “We are uncertain at this time whether this device is a regulated commodity by local, state or federal governments. As such, to ensure we comply with the applicable law and regulations, FedEx declined to ship this device until we know more about how it will be regulated.”
UPS: A UPS spokesperson wrote in a statement that the company will only ship guns and gun parts between holders of a federal firearms license. In a follow-up statement, it confirmed that it won’t ship the Ghost Gunner either. “UPS reserves the right to refuse to provide transportation service for, among other reasons, any shipments that create legal, safety or operational concerns,” writes spokesperson Dan Mackin. “UPS is continuing to evaluate such concerns with regard to the transportation of milling machines used to produce operable firearms but, at this point in time, will not accept such devices for transportation.”
USPS: The US Postal Service didn’t immediately respond to questions about whether they would allow the shipment of the Ghost Gunner or other potential gunsmithing devices.
The UPS guy has no idea what he's talking about. Literally millions of gun parts are shipped to non-FFL holders (aka consumers) by UPS. As are live ammunition, powder and primers. They'll also ship actual guns both to and from non-licensed individuals as long as there is an FFL on one end. (A gunsmith is allowed to mail your gun back to you - although not to sell via mail order).
They absolutely know. You have to pay a hazmat fee on the gunpoweder/ammo, for example, and when you're shipping boxes out of a gun parts retailer, guess what? Those boxes contain gun parts. The PR flunky is either lying or totally misinformed - I'm guessing the latter.
Well, I guess they'd have to ask. But the point is that they are very much aware that they currently ship large quantities of guns, gun parts, and ammunition to unlicensed people (legally) every single day.
I've shipped handloaded ammo to a buddy. You absolutely have to declare what's in the box, and the box must be marked "ORM-D" on multiple sides. Oh, and you goto the UPS depot, not some retail outlet.
I've had lots of non serial numbered/non ffl parts shipped to me via usps, FedEx, and ups.
Though, what he's talking about is more specific than ammo - which they probably already know all the local laws on.
While I see your point, I can still believe that UPS is erring on the side of caution while they try to figure out all the legislation involved in being a courier for this type of thing.
Do they ship lathes? How about CNC metal milling machines?
How, aside from the name, is this different? Strikes me as similar outlawing nc because someone might use it to do a port scan against machines they don't own.
I agree that there doesn't appear to be any technical difference between this CNC / 3D printer and others, but intent seems to matter a lot with the law. These are clearly marketed and sold for the purpose of firearm construction.
True, but lets not pretend this is a legal question. Given that UPS will ship 8 pound jugs of gunpowder to unlicensed individuals every day of the week and twice on Sunday, I have a hard time believing they have some sort of philosophical objection to guns. (I have personally shipped a gun legally via UPS).
So I'm going to conclude the real issue is fear. Fear of governmental overreach and all the hassles it can bring.
Technically, yes. In practice, quite possibly no. AFAIK you can build a gun for yourself legally, but you can't build a gun for sale without a license. A machine like this seems like it would be used to make a lot of guns, which implies trade, which raises the specter of illegal activity.
> A DVD drive like this seems like it would be used to make a lot of DVD copies, which implies trade, which raises the specter of illegal activity.
No it doesn't. Most people who have computers with DVD drives do not sell DVDs. On the other hand, most people who have gun manufacturing machines do trade in guns.
Just as relevant, you don't need a license for DVDs, but you do need a license for guns.
The business model of this machine (well, aside from the advocacy/self-promotion angle others describe) is that one person buys this, then allows others to use it to finish their "80% receivers". (And then they do a hell of a lot more work to turn it into a safe, functioning gun, but that's assembly, not machining, a lot more people are good (enough) at the former than the latter.)
Why couldn't someone buy the thing, and then rent it to other hobbyists? Or perhaps a serial resale network could develop. Eventually, I presume that Defense Distributed would release designs for the mill itself.
Sounds like they will ship CNC machines, just not the one sold by Defense Distributed. Not cool.
The "regulatory uncertainty" line is the same cop-out used by banks regarding Bitcoin-related businesses. Do we now, in America, assume that something is illegal until the government explicitly tells us it's legal?
If you read up on the guy, that's not what he wants. He doesn't care about guns. He just wants to put manufacturing technology beyond the reach of the law. He's got a bit of an anarchist bent. Guns are just the means to his end - a convenient PR vehicle. In other words, he sort of wants people to talk about banning this stuff.
So start another company that ships generic 3D printers. Put the mill in there. Then ship the informational package and gun-related stickers in a separate infokit.
It's pretty silly to think FedEx and UPS are technically capable of refusing to ship based on the capability of a printer. That's really deep inspection.
Jeez, just don't go around advertising that people can make guns on it. I'm sure FedEx would refuse to ship my paper printers if I got a lot of press on how you could use them to make your own currency.
I have to hand it to the Defense Distributed guys, they sure know how to turn a non-story into headline news.
Short version: FedEx and UPS get worried about liability as DD tells them they are mailing 'make your own gun kits' and decline to ship, until they understand where the ATF stands on the issue.
There are a ton of things you can't ship. A number of those things are pre-cursor components to "bad things" be it bombs, weapons, or chemical compounds. Guess who takes it in the shorts for shipping them? The shipper. So our government has trained these folks to be conservative in what they will accept until they have their collective backsides covered.
I get that DD is trying to foster some sort of conversation about how easy it is to fabricate fire arms, but what I don't get it what they hope to achieve, other than sales to people who are paranoid about having the 2nd amendment repealed.
Do you remember when, in the wake of Sandy Hook, &c, retailers and private sellers couldn't keep large-capacity magazines on the shelves, they were selling out so quickly, and at such a premium?
Now they're sitting in boxes on the floor at $10/per.
Nothing like a bit of artificially inflated demand for the old bottom line, eh?
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms [1] establishes rules and regulations regarding the ownership, sales, manufacturing, and transport of firearms across state lines. Great article on them here on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_Fir...
[edit] I didn't answer your question directly, they also determine what "defines" a firearm, they are the folks with the whole serial number goes on the receiver rule and that is a firearm. There is an ongoing "discussion" or "debate" over how close you can get to finishing a receiver before it becomes a receiver and thus a firearm by ATF rules. It is within the power of the ATF to rule that a CNC mill that is pre-loaded with the ability to convert an partially finished receiver into a finished receiver, is a controlled item.
[1] My grandfather once called it "the bureau of fun stuff"
It is within the power of the ATF to rule that a CNC mill that is pre-loaded with the ability to convert an partially finished receiver into a finished receiver, is a controlled item.
This might or might not surprise you, but the BATFE essentially makes the law, interpreting 8 decades of often unclear statutory law. The latest example of this is their recent "On second thought, M885 ammo is bad"---although the statutory law sure seems to be clear to me, but I've come across lawyers on our side who think it's debatable.
Challenging them is very dangerous, they have an odd habit of using any and all means to destroy people they get upset with, even their own agents, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Dobyns And most Federal courts and judges are not exactly on our side.
Back when people were wondering how we could get "the people" upset enough about the NSA et. al. to have the same effectiveness as "the NRA" (really, the nation's gun owners), I pointed out more that a few atrocities would have to be committed and publicized. That "worked" for us because the BATFE is probably the dirtiest and nastiest of the Federal law enforcement agencies.
But I can point to a law that allows them to regulate M855, or at least gives them the wiggle room. I'm aware of no such law that even hints at their ability to regulate machine technology.
The same law they use to define a "finished" receiver as a controlled item. My guess (I am neither a law enforcement officer nor a lawyer) is that it would be part of http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=70394195a3edf623eba... given that covers most transportation.
That said, my father maintained a federal firearms license for 30+ years in order to be able to send and receive guns that he had engraved. In his dealings with the ATF he noted you could agree with them or take them to court but there really wasn't an option for suggesting directly they didn't have the right to do what ever it was they were doing.
I expect that should the ATF decide that these things should not be allowed to be transported, they will do so under some rationale based on Title 27. Whether or not it is legal for them to do so, is something the courts would have to litigate, and something which neither FedEx nor UPS would be likely to do (DD could as they would have standing as the party being harmed).
As a way to get around that law, manufacturers can make a product that isn’t technically a gun, but gets as close to the line as possible. The Ghost Gunner CNC mill requires that the buyer provide their own semi-finished lower, which is sometimes dubbed an "80 percent lower."
"The term 80 percent receiver comes from the seller, that’s not a term that we use," a spokesman from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) told Ars last year.
"That’s a term from the seller or creator of the device that it’s 80 percent of a finished receiver, therefore it is legal. That’s not a determination we make."
In short, in the ATF’s view, either something is a firearm or it isn’t—and if it isn’t, it can be sold without restriction.
But in January 2015, the agency released ATF Rule 2015-1 and clarified that a gunsmith or machine shop cannot use its tool to refine an 80 percent to make it a suitable firearm, but the ruling does not affect CNCs owned by individuals.
"Nothing in this ruling affects the ability of individuals to make their own firearms for personal use, as allowed by law," Ginger Colbrun, an ATF spokeswoman, told Ars by e-mail on Tuesday.
But that just says that it is legal according to the BATFE - you can't use a tool to manufacture firearms unlicensed (or in this grey area, to complete someone's 80% receiver for them). That's a legitimate interpretation of an existing law - they're just saying you can't set up a service to finish up lowers for people - they define that as manufacturing. They'd change their tune if the smith was licensed to manufacture and added serial numbers.
I'm unaware of anything that regulates machinery used to make guns, which until about a year ago, was general purpose machine tools (and still is for practical purposes - these Ghostgunner things are political art, not machine tools). I think people WANT to be able to say "that's illegal, or it might be". But it's just not. Not yet. (as far as I know, I can be convinced if someone shows me a law).
I won't argue that the BATFE hasn't done illegal things in the past, and probably will in the future, but as far as I can tell, this is pretty black and white.
Why is Mr. Wilson going out of his way to tell them what it's for?
"What are you shipping?"
"CNC Mill."
"Great, we'll be happy to ship that for you."
Don't try to confuse the customer service rep by saying things that have the potential to confuse them; they don't need to know what it's meant for.
It's doubtful that UPS, at a high level, cares enough to ban this. Rather, someone heard "something something GUN MACHINE," doesn't know anything about the relevant law, and made a snap decision that was least likely to get them in trouble.
“This is a way to jab at the bleeding hearts of these total statists,” Wilson told WIRED in October. “It’s about humiliating the power that wants to humiliate you.”
What an appeal! So twisted in its approach. Where do I sign up to jab at some bleeding hearts, humiliate them, STRIKE BACK!
And even if you believe it is a jab at the bleeding hearts of these total statists you are still left with only part of an AR15, while these total statists control the price of ammo (they probably don't). I reckon you could jab them better by dirt farming.
Think bigger and longer-term. He's not talking about guns, but removing the ability of governments to regulate anything physical. Could you print or cast propellants and make caseless ammo? I bet with some effort you could. Could you distribute that ability in a way that would be utterly impractical to control by any government? Sure.
He's demonstrated the concept with simple things like gun magazines. Theoretically, they're now out of reach of the government to control. Add in more time and better technology, and this concept is potentially a big deal for all manner of things. Interesting to think about at least.
Guns are just a current flash point that it's easy for people to get their heads around. But who knows what tomorrow will bring that governments will try to control only to find themselves unable to do so due to unskilled, cheaply available, distributed manufacturing capability?
Sort of irrelevant if it is inevitable and can't be controlled, no? It's an interesting topic, and again, goes well beyond arms. I'm not saying what I think of it one way or the other, just describing the philosophy of the guys behind this.
Civil wars and local conflicts have no shortage of weapons already. US is practically swimming in firearms and so far that has produced no such war here.
We do have a number of extremely terrible incidents with resulting loss of life, many of these are very much preventable. My personal opinion, more laws restricting distribution will not prevent these, but better mental health services, safety tech and training will.
All this article really proves is that people who want to have a gun will have a gun. It might be extremely difficult, but those hell-bent on it will still succeed.
The "Ghost Gunner" is a PR stunt. The whole project is to get media coverage. As a CNC machine, it's junk. It's from the same people who 3D printed a crappy gun.
The real deal is this: to get around US firearms laws, there's a mini-industry selling AR-15 "80% lower receivers".[1] These are sometimes advertised as "billets", but they're not unfinished castings. They're complete parts with a few holes omitted. With a template and a drill press, you can finish them. There's even a desktop router and jig combo to do that specific job. Costs $159.[2]
The Ghost Gunner is a little CNC desktop router built to do that specific job and not much else. It has small stepping motors and toothed rubber belts, like a 3D printer. It doesn't have the rigidity of a real milling machine, so it can't push a milling cutter sideways against resistance while holding precision. You couldn't mill anything out of a block of aluminum with it. It can drill holes of one size. That's all.
The site says that "pre-orders are sold out". They've been taking "non-refundable" deposits. It's quite possible that they aren't really manufacturing them, or they don't work very well, and want to claim they can't ship the things so they don't have to deliver.
I looked into getting one of these because I do some machining, usually at TechShop. (I'm into Teletype restoration and steampunk.) A low-cost little home CNC mill would be nice for making small metal parts. This isn't a real CNC mill. Roland has some nice desktop CNC mills, but they're much more expensive than this thing. There's a Kickstarter project for a real 3-axis desktop mill, but it's probably going to be priced around $2600. That's entry level for milling aluminum. If they wanted to make money and milling machines, rather than get press, there's a market for little CNC mills. That Kickstarter is way oversubscribed.
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[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 36.1 ms ] threadFedEx: “We are uncertain at this time whether this device is a regulated commodity by local, state or federal governments. As such, to ensure we comply with the applicable law and regulations, FedEx declined to ship this device until we know more about how it will be regulated.”
UPS: A UPS spokesperson wrote in a statement that the company will only ship guns and gun parts between holders of a federal firearms license. In a follow-up statement, it confirmed that it won’t ship the Ghost Gunner either. “UPS reserves the right to refuse to provide transportation service for, among other reasons, any shipments that create legal, safety or operational concerns,” writes spokesperson Dan Mackin. “UPS is continuing to evaluate such concerns with regard to the transportation of milling machines used to produce operable firearms but, at this point in time, will not accept such devices for transportation.”
USPS: The US Postal Service didn’t immediately respond to questions about whether they would allow the shipment of the Ghost Gunner or other potential gunsmithing devices.
I've had lots of non serial numbered/non ffl parts shipped to me via usps, FedEx, and ups.
This guy is completely full of crap.
While I see your point, I can still believe that UPS is erring on the side of caution while they try to figure out all the legislation involved in being a courier for this type of thing.
But not a machine that can cut the fire control pockets for me?
How, aside from the name, is this different? Strikes me as similar outlawing nc because someone might use it to do a port scan against machines they don't own.
So I'm going to conclude the real issue is fear. Fear of governmental overreach and all the hassles it can bring.
No it doesn't. Most people who have computers with DVD drives do not sell DVDs. On the other hand, most people who have gun manufacturing machines do trade in guns.
Just as relevant, you don't need a license for DVDs, but you do need a license for guns.
The business model of this machine (well, aside from the advocacy/self-promotion angle others describe) is that one person buys this, then allows others to use it to finish their "80% receivers". (And then they do a hell of a lot more work to turn it into a safe, functioning gun, but that's assembly, not machining, a lot more people are good (enough) at the former than the latter.)
[1]: http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23
Which is also not against the law.
The "regulatory uncertainty" line is the same cop-out used by banks regarding Bitcoin-related businesses. Do we now, in America, assume that something is illegal until the government explicitly tells us it's legal?
The guys just need to have an additional "doing business as" cuddly name like "Tools for Local Sustainable Toy Milling and Crafting"
It's pretty silly to think FedEx and UPS are technically capable of refusing to ship based on the capability of a printer. That's really deep inspection.
Jeez, just don't go around advertising that people can make guns on it. I'm sure FedEx would refuse to ship my paper printers if I got a lot of press on how you could use them to make your own currency.
Short version: FedEx and UPS get worried about liability as DD tells them they are mailing 'make your own gun kits' and decline to ship, until they understand where the ATF stands on the issue.
There are a ton of things you can't ship. A number of those things are pre-cursor components to "bad things" be it bombs, weapons, or chemical compounds. Guess who takes it in the shorts for shipping them? The shipper. So our government has trained these folks to be conservative in what they will accept until they have their collective backsides covered.
I get that DD is trying to foster some sort of conversation about how easy it is to fabricate fire arms, but what I don't get it what they hope to achieve, other than sales to people who are paranoid about having the 2nd amendment repealed.
Now they're sitting in boxes on the floor at $10/per.
Nothing like a bit of artificially inflated demand for the old bottom line, eh?
[edit] I didn't answer your question directly, they also determine what "defines" a firearm, they are the folks with the whole serial number goes on the receiver rule and that is a firearm. There is an ongoing "discussion" or "debate" over how close you can get to finishing a receiver before it becomes a receiver and thus a firearm by ATF rules. It is within the power of the ATF to rule that a CNC mill that is pre-loaded with the ability to convert an partially finished receiver into a finished receiver, is a controlled item.
[1] My grandfather once called it "the bureau of fun stuff"
Are you sure about that? Under what law?
Challenging them is very dangerous, they have an odd habit of using any and all means to destroy people they get upset with, even their own agents, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Dobyns And most Federal courts and judges are not exactly on our side.
Back when people were wondering how we could get "the people" upset enough about the NSA et. al. to have the same effectiveness as "the NRA" (really, the nation's gun owners), I pointed out more that a few atrocities would have to be committed and publicized. That "worked" for us because the BATFE is probably the dirtiest and nastiest of the Federal law enforcement agencies.
That said, my father maintained a federal firearms license for 30+ years in order to be able to send and receive guns that he had engraved. In his dealings with the ATF he noted you could agree with them or take them to court but there really wasn't an option for suggesting directly they didn't have the right to do what ever it was they were doing.
I expect that should the ATF decide that these things should not be allowed to be transported, they will do so under some rationale based on Title 27. Whether or not it is legal for them to do so, is something the courts would have to litigate, and something which neither FedEx nor UPS would be likely to do (DD could as they would have standing as the party being harmed).
In the Ars coverage (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/02/fedex-wont-ship-t...) the ATF was quoted as saying:
As a way to get around that law, manufacturers can make a product that isn’t technically a gun, but gets as close to the line as possible. The Ghost Gunner CNC mill requires that the buyer provide their own semi-finished lower, which is sometimes dubbed an "80 percent lower."
"The term 80 percent receiver comes from the seller, that’s not a term that we use," a spokesman from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) told Ars last year.
"That’s a term from the seller or creator of the device that it’s 80 percent of a finished receiver, therefore it is legal. That’s not a determination we make."
In short, in the ATF’s view, either something is a firearm or it isn’t—and if it isn’t, it can be sold without restriction.
But in January 2015, the agency released ATF Rule 2015-1 and clarified that a gunsmith or machine shop cannot use its tool to refine an 80 percent to make it a suitable firearm, but the ruling does not affect CNCs owned by individuals.
"Nothing in this ruling affects the ability of individuals to make their own firearms for personal use, as allowed by law," Ginger Colbrun, an ATF spokeswoman, told Ars by e-mail on Tuesday.
I'm unaware of anything that regulates machinery used to make guns, which until about a year ago, was general purpose machine tools (and still is for practical purposes - these Ghostgunner things are political art, not machine tools). I think people WANT to be able to say "that's illegal, or it might be". But it's just not. Not yet. (as far as I know, I can be convinced if someone shows me a law).
I won't argue that the BATFE hasn't done illegal things in the past, and probably will in the future, but as far as I can tell, this is pretty black and white.
"What are you shipping?"
"CNC Mill."
"Great, we'll be happy to ship that for you."
Don't try to confuse the customer service rep by saying things that have the potential to confuse them; they don't need to know what it's meant for.
It's doubtful that UPS, at a high level, cares enough to ban this. Rather, someone heard "something something GUN MACHINE," doesn't know anything about the relevant law, and made a snap decision that was least likely to get them in trouble.
Free national PR. Besides Wired, I've seen him on documentaries and national news broadcasts.
What an appeal! So twisted in its approach. Where do I sign up to jab at some bleeding hearts, humiliate them, STRIKE BACK!
He's demonstrated the concept with simple things like gun magazines. Theoretically, they're now out of reach of the government to control. Add in more time and better technology, and this concept is potentially a big deal for all manner of things. Interesting to think about at least.
Guns are just a current flash point that it's easy for people to get their heads around. But who knows what tomorrow will bring that governments will try to control only to find themselves unable to do so due to unskilled, cheaply available, distributed manufacturing capability?
We do have a number of extremely terrible incidents with resulting loss of life, many of these are very much preventable. My personal opinion, more laws restricting distribution will not prevent these, but better mental health services, safety tech and training will.
All this article really proves is that people who want to have a gun will have a gun. It might be extremely difficult, but those hell-bent on it will still succeed.
The real deal is this: to get around US firearms laws, there's a mini-industry selling AR-15 "80% lower receivers".[1] These are sometimes advertised as "billets", but they're not unfinished castings. They're complete parts with a few holes omitted. With a template and a drill press, you can finish them. There's even a desktop router and jig combo to do that specific job. Costs $159.[2]
The Ghost Gunner is a little CNC desktop router built to do that specific job and not much else. It has small stepping motors and toothed rubber belts, like a 3D printer. It doesn't have the rigidity of a real milling machine, so it can't push a milling cutter sideways against resistance while holding precision. You couldn't mill anything out of a block of aluminum with it. It can drill holes of one size. That's all.
The site says that "pre-orders are sold out". They've been taking "non-refundable" deposits. It's quite possible that they aren't really manufacturing them, or they don't work very well, and want to claim they can't ship the things so they don't have to deliver.
I looked into getting one of these because I do some machining, usually at TechShop. (I'm into Teletype restoration and steampunk.) A low-cost little home CNC mill would be nice for making small metal parts. This isn't a real CNC mill. Roland has some nice desktop CNC mills, but they're much more expensive than this thing. There's a Kickstarter project for a real 3-axis desktop mill, but it's probably going to be priced around $2600. That's entry level for milling aluminum. If they wanted to make money and milling machines, rather than get press, there's a market for little CNC mills. That Kickstarter is way oversubscribed.
That's why this is all a PR stunt.
[1] http://www.80percentarms.com/ [2] http://www.80percentarms.com/products/308-easy-jig [3] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/178590870/the-nomad-cnc...