What I find more interesting given how much people love high ceilings why they won’t pay the extra cost of having them? What is stopping the market supplying what people want?
It must be more than straight cost since properties with high ceilings sell for a premium over those with a low ceiling. The demand is there and customers seem willing to pay, but the market does not seem to be meeting that demand (at least in Australia).
Low ceilings in nice houses started in the 70s when energy costs went up and building styles changed to boxy, "sealed" environments. Low ceilings are more efficient from an HVAC POV.
People like high ceilings, but it's a "nice to have" for most people. Also that like changes from time to time -- in the 80s, old buildings with high ceilings were looked down upon.
Also, new construction costs have escalated so much that new homes are stripped to the bone in most cases. Your $500k house will have a $50 "builder grade" faucet, for example.
In Australia it has created houses that did not need AC to houses that are unliveable without AC.
I know in my area a property with high ceilings will sell for a premium over one with low ceiling. It is really interesting to see this effect in properties built around the change over time where the older property is 5% more expensive than a similar property a few years younger but with low ceilings.
Commercial buildings are the same way. I had the pleasure of working in a refurbished school converted into offices... Being able to open a window in a room with 15' ceilings was amazing.
One of the things I loved about moving to Australia was all of the houses with 10 or 12 foot ceilings. I live in a place with 12 foot ceilings now and I love it. I definitely find I feel more calm and relaxed.
These are almost only ever found in old houses (pre 1970). The reason for high ceilings is cooling - Australia in general is a pretty warm place and cooling is ever a problem. I live in a property that was built in 1929 and it has 11 foot ceiling and is cool enough in summer that I don’t have air conditioning.
After 1970 the regulations were changed and all the houses were built with 8 foot ceilings to save money. I hate these low ceilings as they feel totally oppressive.
Having just raised the ceiling in my house, there are a variety of things.
Taller walls tend to come with taller windows. Not just more glass... sometimes whole extra windows (transoms) which cost almost as much as the much larger ones below. Taller cabinets or soffit details to receive them. More elaborate trim work. etc.
For a flipper or a production builder every dollar is saved because it adds up in the end. If there's a high ceiling it's because it's been determined to command a good profit.
Yeah, but then there are costs like... umm, I see that smoke alarm at a height of 4 meters above me. I need to go and get the ladder so I can change the battery.
Over here, the standard room height is 2400 mm or 2500 mm, and my house has 2780 mm. I'm happy with the extra overhead space, but there are all sorts of little things. The drywall boards actually had to be ordered separately, and the price increase is not linear. They're heavier to carry - again, not linear - so installing is more difficult. Working on the top parts needs higher scaffolding. To get to the attic, I have this factory-made foldable ladder that opens from a hatch in the ceiling and then folds out with three hinges; it's factory-made for 2500 mm room height so I had to add a 35cm piece to the bottom with another hinge so that it would reach down to the floor and be steady.
When I built a new house with a plan builder (3BR + home office), the cost to go from the default 2400mm (8') ceilings to 2700mm (9') was just under AU$10k.
When you're building a new house and have largely progressed things with a particular project builder, everything is extremely high. There are no breakdowns. And it's not just non-standard, just an expected upgrade, of which there were many no sane person would avoid - premium bench tops, better windows, etc. This was $10k in the context of a $200-250k house build.
I grew up in a house with 10' ceilings (most heritage houses in Australia are 10'+).
Yes, there was no question at any point that we were going to do it. Lower ceilings here make a house feel cheap and nasty, so I was thinking of resale value as well as my sanity.
As Spooky23 explains elsewhere in the thread, it’s the A/C costs that matter. With 12 foot ceilings, you need the A/C less, But when A/C was a big new thing, it was much less efficient and much more expensive than it is today. And back then, adding 50% to the height of a floor made it much harder to keep at frigid temperatures.
On the flip side, the house designs completely ignore winter, lack insulation and adequate heating systems, so even in a mild 10C winter you will be extremely uncomfortable inside your own home. I was so uncomfortable in winter in Melbourne compared to New York; this is a common complaint from expats there.
Yes this is true. You are just expected to tough it out in winter. I grew up in an area where it would be around 70F during the day in winter, but it would get down into the 20s at the night. We had no heating in our bedrooms and would just pile on the 'donnas' to stay warm. Even now I have no heating in my bedroom, but I do now have an electric blanket :)
If low ceilings were more expensive than high ceilings, and photos/videos of creative people in their high-end design studios working on marketing campaigns, feature film, graphic design, and photography were always in low-ceiling'ed spaces rather than wide open exposed beam converted warehouses, etc. that we see today, the study might observe the opposite effect. And the same article might be written saying low ceilings are better for creativity because they are cozy and bring potent genetic memories of the kind of small hand built shelters early humanity evolved with.
So, to paraphrase, "if things were not as they are we could come to a different conclusion". Yes, that is a thought, it was not worth writing down though.
I disagree. Nature versus nurture is a difficult but interesting topic. Is our preference for high ceilings caused by culture and experience, or is it something we're genetically predisposed to? It seems like it would be a hard question to answer, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth thinking about.
I was basically saying maybe the cause for the creativity increase in test subjects is due to a cultural association of high-status creative occupations rather than because the extra head-space tingles our neural spatial exploration networks.
In the alternate "high ceiling'ed places yield lower creativity" world, maybe we would say of the same exact fMRI study that obviously the neural spatial exploration networks are being overloaded by processing the tall room, hindered from devoting neural energy to the creative tasks at hand like they can so efficiently in the low-ceiling rooms, or some other story.
"...so that the house would “open up” as you walked into it."
This is a well-known effect that architects have employed for centuries. In fact, you probably encounter it in many places without even thinking about it:
- when walking into a cinema auditorium, you walk through a low-ceiling entrance or corridor and then the auditorium space opens up in front of you. This effect is even more dramatic in some old theatres and opera houses
- the historic concept of contrasting spaces has been used in many different ways by changing the type of space or the size/scale of a space. For example, the narrow streets of a medieval town that suddenly and dramatically open up to a large market square.
The Swiss architect Le Corbusier designed a block of flats (apartments) called the Unité d'habitation (housing unit) in Marseille in France. It was completed in the 1950s and had a huge influence on the design of post-war housing across Europe (it generated much controversy too).
The duplex flats have a narrow width of just 3.66 metres. As you enter the flat, the first ceiling height is 2.26 metres (which Le Corbusier described as "intimate"). This leads into the double-height space of the living room (i.e. the second ceiling height). The windows in this double-height space are 15 square metres. Light floods in to the apartment in winter and summer and, according to Le Corbusier, can penetrate to a depth of 20 metres. The flats are fitted with stairs without risers to accentuate the sense of space.
Sample size of 1, but I generally feel more relaxed and creative when I work in a (large-ish) place with high ceilings. If I need extreme focus for moderately short periods of time, I tend to revert to preferring a small, low ceiling place. Confounding factors most likely involved.
Always thought there might be an evolutionary link to preference for literal headroom. Won't speculate which direction a study on this might go, but there are plenty of reasons to suspect a link.
This was covered in "A Pattern Language" decades ago, under Ceiling Height Variety:
> the mere fact that the ceiling heights vary, allows people to move from high rooms to low rooms, and vice versa, according to the degree of intimacy they seek — because they know that everyone correlates
intimacy with ceiling height.
> According to this theory, the effect of the ceiling height is not direct; there is instead a complex interaction between people and space, in which people read the different ceiling heights in a building as messages, and take up positions according to these messages. They are comfortable or uncomfortable according to whether they can take part in this process, and can then feel secure in the knowledge that they have chosen a place of appropriate intimacy.
"A Pattern language" is such a great book, its' a shame its kinda forgotten by many these days. Whenever I talk to an architect I ask them if they've read it and I've yet to get a "yes".
Anyways, highly recommended, if nothing else to get insight in human patterns regarding living spaces and communities
My dad isnt a giant, but he's 6‘4“ and he sometimes feels the need to duck when going through doorways. I'm not as tall as him, but watching him reflexively stoop below obstacles hanging from the ceiling has made me think around headroom a lot.
Headroom and legroom were also deciding factors in every single car purchase we ever made. What good is a car you dont fit into?
I'm 6'7". I would say I like tall ceilings because I'm sick of hitting my head on chandeliers and ceiling fans. :)
The funny thing is, I've noticed it doesn't matter how tall the ceilings are, but they always screw up the stairways in homes. I always have to duck to go down stairs. My house has 8 1/2 foot ceilings in the basement. I have to duck just as much as I do in houses with shorter ceilings. Or so it seems.
I'm 1.95 and I almost always duck slightly when passing a door, even when there is space and no threshold. Its like a bad habit.
I'm lucky when it comes to cars, most cars I've driven has been alright when pushing the seat all the way back, if I'd been slightly taller it would've been a different story.
Is it the ceiling or the closed environment ? As a kid I loved to be tucked in the smallest space, it felt like a nest (some times, very weirdly, I even fantasized about sleeping in a big drawer, inside a cupboard). All dimensions mattered. Would people relax in a low ceiling with a very very long (or large or both) room ?
Ceilings bring me to our relationship with verticality. We don't experience large vertical dimensions the same way we do with horizontal ones. IIRC system theorists argued we were wired differently to perceive dimensions because of gravity.
42 comments
[ 5.6 ms ] story [ 100 ms ] threadPeople like high ceilings, but it's a "nice to have" for most people. Also that like changes from time to time -- in the 80s, old buildings with high ceilings were looked down upon.
Also, new construction costs have escalated so much that new homes are stripped to the bone in most cases. Your $500k house will have a $50 "builder grade" faucet, for example.
I know in my area a property with high ceilings will sell for a premium over one with low ceiling. It is really interesting to see this effect in properties built around the change over time where the older property is 5% more expensive than a similar property a few years younger but with low ceilings.
Commercial buildings are the same way. I had the pleasure of working in a refurbished school converted into offices... Being able to open a window in a room with 15' ceilings was amazing.
After 1970 the regulations were changed and all the houses were built with 8 foot ceilings to save money. I hate these low ceilings as they feel totally oppressive.
Does that really save all that much money? Seems like it would be only a percent or two extra.
Taller walls tend to come with taller windows. Not just more glass... sometimes whole extra windows (transoms) which cost almost as much as the much larger ones below. Taller cabinets or soffit details to receive them. More elaborate trim work. etc.
For a flipper or a production builder every dollar is saved because it adds up in the end. If there's a high ceiling it's because it's been determined to command a good profit.
Over here, the standard room height is 2400 mm or 2500 mm, and my house has 2780 mm. I'm happy with the extra overhead space, but there are all sorts of little things. The drywall boards actually had to be ordered separately, and the price increase is not linear. They're heavier to carry - again, not linear - so installing is more difficult. Working on the top parts needs higher scaffolding. To get to the attic, I have this factory-made foldable ladder that opens from a hatch in the ceiling and then folds out with three hinges; it's factory-made for 2500 mm room height so I had to add a 35cm piece to the bottom with another hinge so that it would reach down to the floor and be steady.
Edit. I did a search and in Australia raising the ceiling by 12 inches adds $3000 to a $350,000 house.
Did he give you a breakdown of what cost more? Or was it just that it was nonstandard?
Did you do it?
I grew up in a house with 10' ceilings (most heritage houses in Australia are 10'+).
Yes, there was no question at any point that we were going to do it. Lower ceilings here make a house feel cheap and nasty, so I was thinking of resale value as well as my sanity.
Probably not, but just a thought.
I disagree. Nature versus nurture is a difficult but interesting topic. Is our preference for high ceilings caused by culture and experience, or is it something we're genetically predisposed to? It seems like it would be a hard question to answer, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth thinking about.
In the alternate "high ceiling'ed places yield lower creativity" world, maybe we would say of the same exact fMRI study that obviously the neural spatial exploration networks are being overloaded by processing the tall room, hindered from devoting neural energy to the creative tasks at hand like they can so efficiently in the low-ceiling rooms, or some other story.
High ceilings do feel better for group and work spaces, room to breath.
[0] an actual anecdote that happened to me.
This is a well-known effect that architects have employed for centuries. In fact, you probably encounter it in many places without even thinking about it:
- when walking into a cinema auditorium, you walk through a low-ceiling entrance or corridor and then the auditorium space opens up in front of you. This effect is even more dramatic in some old theatres and opera houses
- the historic concept of contrasting spaces has been used in many different ways by changing the type of space or the size/scale of a space. For example, the narrow streets of a medieval town that suddenly and dramatically open up to a large market square.
The Swiss architect Le Corbusier designed a block of flats (apartments) called the Unité d'habitation (housing unit) in Marseille in France. It was completed in the 1950s and had a huge influence on the design of post-war housing across Europe (it generated much controversy too).
The duplex flats have a narrow width of just 3.66 metres. As you enter the flat, the first ceiling height is 2.26 metres (which Le Corbusier described as "intimate"). This leads into the double-height space of the living room (i.e. the second ceiling height). The windows in this double-height space are 15 square metres. Light floods in to the apartment in winter and summer and, according to Le Corbusier, can penetrate to a depth of 20 metres. The flats are fitted with stairs without risers to accentuate the sense of space.
Here are some pictures of an apartment: https://www.flickr.com/photos/88017382@N00/8562877755/ http://www.house42.com/2010/10/14/unite-dhabitation-duplex-a...
"Breath" is a noun that means "the air taken into or expelled from the lungs."
> the mere fact that the ceiling heights vary, allows people to move from high rooms to low rooms, and vice versa, according to the degree of intimacy they seek — because they know that everyone correlates intimacy with ceiling height.
> According to this theory, the effect of the ceiling height is not direct; there is instead a complex interaction between people and space, in which people read the different ceiling heights in a building as messages, and take up positions according to these messages. They are comfortable or uncomfortable according to whether they can take part in this process, and can then feel secure in the knowledge that they have chosen a place of appropriate intimacy.
Anyways, highly recommended, if nothing else to get insight in human patterns regarding living spaces and communities
Headroom and legroom were also deciding factors in every single car purchase we ever made. What good is a car you dont fit into?
The funny thing is, I've noticed it doesn't matter how tall the ceilings are, but they always screw up the stairways in homes. I always have to duck to go down stairs. My house has 8 1/2 foot ceilings in the basement. I have to duck just as much as I do in houses with shorter ceilings. Or so it seems.
I'm lucky when it comes to cars, most cars I've driven has been alright when pushing the seat all the way back, if I'd been slightly taller it would've been a different story.
I wonder what dead salmon think of high ceilings? ( http://prefrontal.org/files/posters/Bennett-Salmon-2009.pdf )
Ceilings bring me to our relationship with verticality. We don't experience large vertical dimensions the same way we do with horizontal ones. IIRC system theorists argued we were wired differently to perceive dimensions because of gravity.