You should try vyvanse, I used to take Ritalin and then my doctor trailed me on vyvanse and it lasts the entire day with far less negative side affects than Ritalin. I immediately fell in love, it's still patented though so it isn't cheap without insurance.
There is also Concerta - which is basically a mechanical pump contained in a pill that delivers Ritalin spread over 8 hours. They aren't under patent, but the extra mechanics built into the pill still drive a generic 30 day prescription into the $200 range (pre-insurance).
(osmosis is the movement of water across a semi permeable membrane, roughly speaking, the pill is arranged so that water is drawn into it, creating pressure that pushes the drug out of a small hole.)
The particular mechanism used in Concerta does appear to be under patent.
Mechanical delivery means does not exclude using osmosis to provide the pressure. Since the drug itself doesn't travel across an osmotic barrier, calling the delivery mechanism osmotic doesn't explain the mechanism very well.
That said, I didn't know that the generic versions used a completely different delivery mechanism; thanks for the links!
I didn't mean to argue about the words. I read "mechanical pump" and simply didn't believe it, and went and tracked down the above. So for my ears, "mechanical pump" wasn't the right description. I assumed that others might have a similar experience and so I posted what I had found.
You shouldn't take modafinil daily though as you can develop a tolerance. You should take it 3 consecutive days and then rest the other 4 days of the week. Also extreme focus kills creativity so the rest days allow for a productivity/creativity cycle.
If no one walks up to me or calls to interrupt me, my everyday routine is that level of focus. No drugs beyond a couple of morning coffee cups needed.
One of my coworkers is normal, not like me. When he works in the office there's a lot more socializing, which is great, but it always makes me feel terribly non-productive.
I use Modafinil (Modalert) once a week.
It allows me to work with 100% focus and productivity for 24 hours... so my week is like this:
Mon. to Wed. = meetings readings, learning and planning... then I take a pill and execute hard.
It's like caffeine without side effects. Front end of the 24 hours you can be productive with detailed tasks but towards the latter part you're best with menial tasks, like cleaning.
I take Piracetam, I'm not sure if it works, I'd say no so far (half a year).
I'm very interested in nootropics that would work long term (whole life, all the time). Unfortunately most that have a profound effect seem to level-off etc (say Adderall). So I don't think I'll ever try that kind.
I've never heard of this before. To save you some time:
> Nootropics, also referred to as smart drugs, memory enhancers, neuro enhancers, cognitive enhancers, and intelligence enhancers, are drugs, supplements, nutraceuticals, and functional foods that improve one or more aspects of mental function, such as working memory, motivation, and attention.
For me personally - a significant difference. My productivity has increased due to rarely incurring cognitive fatigue due to fluctuating energy levels (i.e that afternoon slump after lunch goes away, skipping a meal has little or no consequence). I can code for 8 straight hours without having to eat where before if I skipped a meal I'd start getting hazy.
Additional benefits include weight loss while eating as much as you want, never getting hungry, being able to do a 10km run on an empty stomach and still be full of energy ..
Depends. I find myself more alert for some stints of time while in a ketogenic state, but on the other hand, have difficulty falling asleep (as in, normal day I'm drop dead asleep at 11-12pm, while in keto, I'm sleepy (very sleepy, groggy) but it is common for me to be awake at 2-3am. Wake up times is the same.
Not sure what is best to be honest since lack of sleep brings a lot of problems by itself.
Having been burning Ketones more than Carbs for more than 2 years now, i can absolutely attest to that.
Previously i had to use Caffeine and occasionally Ephedra to stay properly focused on programming tasks. But the people around me often thought i was angry and annoyed easily, that is completely the opposite now that i'm "on" Ketones.
Its unlikely that depriving your brain of fuel is having a positive effect on concentration, but since eating carbs triggers insulin, which supresses the effects of adrenaline, you might just be experiencing the benefits of not saturating your diet with sugar.
The brain is not being deprived, rather it's deriving it's energy from a different source -
> the brain starts burning ketones in order to more directly use the energy from the fat stores that are being depended upon, and to reserve the glucose only for its absolute needs [1]
Additionally -
> Because the brain can only power 70% of its action on ketones, glucose will have to be used no matter what. However, because glucose can be derived from non-carbohydrate sources such as protein, a low carb or no carb diet does not starve the brain of its required energy. [2]
And your absolutely right in regards to experiencing the benefits of removing sugar from the diet.
I meant to say it's primary fuel source. Will look into this more, but I would think avoiding suppression of epinephrine has to account for some of the effect of cutting to a no/low carb diet.
While I wasn't getting blackout drunk repeatedly, I definitely had an unhealthy relationship with alcohol, and removing alcohol had enormous positive effects on my cognitive abilities.
I also do a heavy dose of caffeine in the morning.
Funny, but yes... even if I drink more than say... two glasses of wine, I am noticeably less alert, drowsy, and impaired the next day. So, not even "blackout drunk..." Better off waiting for the weekends for any alcohol.
My coordination improved when I quit drinking. I was a fairly heavy drinker, but not nearly to that extent. It used to be that when I dropped something, I would seldom catch it on the way down. Now I often or usually do. I didn't notice a commensurate improvement in code output or quality though, but it could have happened without me noticing.
A lot of the drugs with strong effects necessarily have long term consequences from repeated use owing to their mechanisms of action.
You risk making yourself 'dumber' over time with prolonged use. Especially, with the amphetamine based crap that US doctors seem okay to use for medical purposes despite most of the developed world not doing so, and using safer alternatives.
Out of curiosity, have you heard of any negative long term side effects from Modafinil and it's derivatives? (I don't think they are based on 'amphetamine')
I have a friend who has taken it every day for the last 2 years. No negative side effects except when he doesn't take it, he feels like he is not performing at his best.
The major concern with Modafinil is that we just don't know what the long term side effects are. That's the risk you take.
That is exactly why I've never tried it. I'm afraid it will work, and then I'll want or need to use it all the time. Then who knows what will happen years from when I begin.
Correct, Modafinil is not an amphetamine. It is distinct from other psychoactive substances, and we don't fully understand its mechanisms of action, how it affects the brain, or why it works. It's normally classed a 'eurogic' or 'wakefulness-promoting agent', and it (+derivatives) is the only drug of that class.
Long term effects are tolerance, and.. not much else. It has to be cycled regularly. If you abuse it or fail to socialize/have fun enough it'll end up making you feel like a zombie. It's been in regular use for a decade and a half, I haven't heard of any serious issues.
The main risks are the first time you take it. If you're allergic you can have some very serious reactions. In addition, if you're in a high-risk group (low immune system, etc.), you want to avoid the slight risk of SJS/TEN is can cause. SJS/TEN is probably the most terrifying risk, although it's extremely rare, and hundreds of other drugs can cause it too.
Each of these substances are amazing, but not without some danger.
It's working out great for those "developed" countries - they'd rather let people suffer from their inability to learn/work/live than give them something that works, even if it has side effects. The doctors must've taken the Hippocrites oath.
I've been tinkering with nootropics for several years. I've found over that time some things that work for me, and many things that don't. While not all of the following are strictly speaking nootropics, they all contribute to my overall mental state:
- Aniracetam. Helps a lot with my concentration and working my way through problems logically.
- Caffeine/L-theanine. Caffeine is a no-brainer, but l-theanine is amazing in that at a 2:1 ration of l-theanine to caffeine it removes essentially all the jumpiness of the caffeine.
- Tianeptine. This is an anti-depressant that also helps a bit with my anxiety.
- Noopept. This one helps with my concentration quite a bit, and also makes my vision more vibrant. The vision thing doesn't matter so much, but it's pretty neat.
- Rhodiola. This helps tremendously with my anxiety and stops me from ruminating.
- Taurine. Another one that helps me with my anxiety, and has the added benefit of helping with blood pressure. Though I've had my blood pressure under control for years, it's never bad to have a helping hand.
I've had interesting and unexpected results taking Lecithin supplements. There is a stimulating effect similar to caffeine or a B12 shot, and there is also a focusing effect where I could not stop fixating. I can have a tendency to day dream but not on Lecithin. It makes your train of thought very hard to derail. I still take it sometimes but not regularly. It hurts my stomach and can be a bit too much sometimes.
As far as I understand, lecithin breaks down/converts to choline an inositol, and it's these which are causing the mental effect. Since it's a food, the effects aren't as immediate. You'll notice it more on day two.
Every day I take a significant dose of one of the ones that you've heard of, for "ADD". I started doing so because of non-coding reasons but reading the Wikipedia article it is listed on that page.
I'm concerned about the long term effects of taking a psychoactive substance every day. However the one that I take has been used for a while so the long term effects are probably more well known that some of the new ones like Modafinil.
I would be extremely careful and think twice about going down this road unless you absolutely need to. I have a lot of experience fiddling with my body chemistry and usually I decide to stop after a while.
IIRC Sigmund Freud had a similar experience, where he injected himself with cocaine 3 times a day for ten years and wrote about it... then after he stopped came to the conclusion that the cocaine was distorting his perception and that he was actually full of shit. Cocaine is not too different from many of these substances.
I investigated nootropics extensively. If you want to know the fruits of my research:
* anything that "works" has a very pronounced psychoactive effect on the brain. Which is scary in the long-term.
* by far the biggest cognitive boost you can get is SLEEPING WELL! Do this FIRST! It's easy to fix and gives a huge boost in output.
* caffeine works as well as many nootropics, with little to no side-effects if taken sensibly. Also combine with Theanine if wanting to venture into the world of "probably works and has harmless side-effects".
I agree with you about sleep, it's very underrated for cognitive ability and memory development.
Did your research turn up anything negative about Modafinil?
I find Modafinil to be much more powerful than caffeine, however I do worry about long term side effects, even though my research suggests they are safe to use.
Source on the harmful effects? I have not seen any credible study showing any significantly harmful effects.
Did not know about the MIT thing. That explains why it seems impossible to find melatonin in reasonable doses. It took me a long time even to find something as low as 1 mg pills here in europe (why would anyone ever want to buy 8 mg melatonin pills??)
It's a hormone so yes, taking it can have negative effects. It can lead to decreased natural production. You have to be careful with anything hormonal.
I know you meant in the normal case, but it's definitely not easy to fix for some people, like with certain health problems.
Not referring to you in particular, but it just gets a little grating when so many people talk about a good night's sleep as if it was something that anyone can just get.
I can relate to this so well, as a person who has struggled with their sleep schedule since early childhood. People suggest going to bed at the same time every night, but I think those people have the ability to fall asleep when they're given no external stimuli. For me, no external stimuli means my brain starts working overtime, keeping me up.
>* anything that "works" has a very pronounced psychoactive effect on the brain. Which is scary in the long-term.
What are you specifically talking about? What do you qualify as a "very pronounced psychoactive effect" "on the brain" and how is that "scary in the long-term"?
Please don't just make blanket statements without qualifying them to the rest of us. Show some evidence or reasoning to argue.
I sleep 3 to 4 hours per night. Sleeping pills leave me groggy for days, so they are out. Every 2 or 3 weeks my mind and body give up and I manage to get maybe 7 or 8 hours sleep. Insomnia sucks.
I took piracetam years ago when I was considering a career change and prepping for the LSAT exam. I believe that its legal history is somewhat similar to ephedra... 10-15 years ago you could buy it over-the-counter or online, but since then it's been taken off the market in the U.S.
Regardless, my experience was that its only value is the placebo effect. If a substance actually does anything real, and there is potential for a pharmaceutical company to patent and profit from it, then you can generally rest assured that it will be scheduled to require a doctor's prescription. For just about everything, the over-the-counter options consist of vitamins and quackery. So either blatantly break the law, or don't.
As an aside, what is the point of taking a serious nootropic for software development? Typically, a coder's problem isn't failure to get into a groove once they have uninterrupted time. The typical problem is not having uninterrupted time in the first place. Like most people here, probably, I work in an open floor plan environment. I'm subject to constant "drive-by" interruptions that could have been handled better via email, and a neverending roar all around me as colleagues literally scream at each other about Reddit memes or video games or the latest superhero movie.
Do you have a drug that would allow me to completely shut off my hearing, peripheral vision, and other sensory input? So that I can work without having to blast music through $300 noise-canceling headphones (which itself impairs focus, but is the lesser of all evils)? If so, then I would gladly break the law to find a pharmaceutical escape from contemporary office plans that sacrifice productivity for the ability to squeeze headcount into the smallest possible space.
>Regardless, my experience was that its only value is the placebo effect. If a substance actually does anything real, and there is potential for a pharmaceutical company to patent and profit from it, then you can generally rest assured that it will be scheduled to require a doctor's prescription. For just about everything, the over-the-counter options consist of vitamins and quackery. So either blatantly break the law, or don't.
Just a counter-point. Melatonin is OTC in the US (sadly not where I live) and the efficacy of melatonin on sleep quality is pretty hard to dispute.
It's not what you'd normally call a nootropic maybe, but having melatonin on hand has significantly improved my life
Edit: oh. Yeah. Of course, Adrafinil is OTC in the US too and that's the prodrug for Modafinil. Definitely not placebo either
> Melatonin is OTC in the US (sadly not where I live) and the efficacy of melatonin on sleep quality is pretty hard to dispute.
The Mayo Clinic's website doesn't quite feel as strongly as you do about Melatonin:
> The hormone melatonin helps control your natural sleep-wake cycle. Some research suggests that melatonin supplements might be helpful in treating jet lag or reducing the time it takes to fall asleep — although the effect is typically mild. Side effects can include headache and daytime sleepiness. [0]
Another page from Mayo Clinic's website:
> Melatonin might also reduce the time it takes to fall asleep — although this effect is typically mild. [1]
I wouldn't tout Melatonin as the great counterexample of a nootropic that's OTC, considering it's questionable value and limited long-term use.
The worst part about melatonin is the lack of regulation. When people test the pills available they often find different doses, or even no dose at all.
Melatonin and DHEA are hormones and are OTC. But just because they're OTC doesn't mean they should be taken lightly. Hormones are highly regulated in our bodies and taking extra can cause decreased natural production.
Adrafinil is not OTC, it is unregulated. That means you can sell it in the "research chemical" grey market but not as a drug.
You have to distinguish hormonal regulatory mechanisms that are externally vs internally triggered if you're going to discuss decreased natural synthesis.
Oral testosterone? Pituitary measures it and says to the testicles, "we're good here" and testicles atrophy. Oral prednisone? Pituitary says to adrenals "we're good" and adrenals shut down cortisol production.
Melatonin, however, is externally regulated through blue light suppression. So taking it doesn't engage any feedback inhibition, it just increases blood concentration.
I have a weird experience with melatonin. It puts me out quickly, but I wake up about 4-5 hours later in a half drugged state. For the next few hours I'm awake but drowsy.
If you haven't yet, I recommend experimenting with the dosage. Most companies sell melatonin in dramatically higher doses than is necessary. I take 300mcg, but often see it sold in doses an order of magnitude larger than that. Effective dose seems to vary somewhat widely from person to person.
Some people reckon that a lower dose (1mg) is more effective than 3 or 5mg. Its gotten a bit too popular, and there is tons of conflicting advice on using it.
you might try adding 5-HTP to the mix. i had the same issue, after taking melatonin – i'd fall sleep, but wake up a few hours later. pretty much every night.
right now i take 1/2 of 2.5 mg melatonin (sublingual) with 50-100 mg 5-HTP, ideally 30-45 min before going to bed.
adding 5-HTP was A MIRACLE ! after just a day or two i slept very soundly and had AMAZING dreams – we're talkin 2160p 10.5 THX Lord of the Rings epic trilogy with you playing lead role. those first few weeks i even went to bed earlier just so i could dream longer. :)
prior to that it had been decades since i remembered having any dreams. (warning though, i've told several friends about it – after they tried it they had to stop because the dreams were too intense.)
i read about 5-HTP in this book i borrowed from my chiropracter: http://smile.amazon.com/5-HTP-Natural-Overcome-Depression-In...
basically it states that melatonin is only part of the sleep equation, seratonin is the other part. your body can produce seratonin from 5-HTP (which is the chemical in turkey which makes you drowsy).
also:
staring at a computer screen can really mess with your sleep – due to chemical imbalance with these hormones. to help as much as possible, i installed F.lux on all of my computers.
i also recently added Modalert to my daily routine, but that's another story...
I can vouch for F.lux. Its such an essential tool for me now and I have made it a point to get it on all my devices.
Apart from the advantages it has in not disrupting my sleep cycle, I actually enjoy the warmer tones. Even when it comes to home lighting, I have always preferred the yellow shades over the incandescent whites.
Never tried melatonin, either stand alone or coupled with 5-HTP. Let me read a little more. Thanks for the pointers.
As an aside, I would definitely say get your sleep cycles right and more disciplined definitely puts you in a much higher efficiency bracket. Coupled with some simple lifestyle hacks ( playing a team outdoor sport, if you are not the workout type, no devices in bedroom rule, boring but informative tech talk to go to sleep, light and early dinners, no coffee post sunset) you would be surprised how many extra hours of high concentration work you are capable of.
Like others said, play with the dosage. First time I tried it, I had 2.5mg (or maybe 3mg I forget) tablets. I had a somewhat similar experience, I'd get drowsy, but when in bed I'd feel cold and couldn't sleep very well at all.
The next year I got 0.1mg tablets, experimented a bit and found that 8 of those (0.8mg) was the sweet spot for me (taken about 2 hours before I want to sleep). I generally used it in the winter, when it gets dark at 16:00, which apparently can throw my cycle a little out of whack if I don't pay attention, the melatonin seemed to help to fix this a bit.
I have to say, I've never noticed really strong effects like "puts me out quickly". Just a general feeling after an hour or two, that "yeah I could sleep". If I listen to that feeling, I sleep very well. If I stay up anyway, it goes away again, and I don't really get the benefits.
One thing I noticed, after a few weeks, was when I knocked over and broke a glass of water for the third time. I wondered, "hey that seems to happen quite a lot lately..". And always in the evening after I had taken the melatonin, so I guess it does do something to my coordination or perhaps alertness. This was easily solved by taking a bit more care where I place my drinking glass after taking melatonin :)
for someone who likes melatonin but wants something stronger to aid sleep that's not medication/pills I recommend valerian root, it'll put your right to sleep reset your stress, like clearing your bodies ram.
Everything I've been able to find about valerian says that the effect is basically placebo. I got a bottle of (big-ish smelly and brown) valerian pills one time, really didn't do anything for me.
That's so true about the other factors that sap productivity - it's a rare moment when our brains are the limiting factor, rather than the thousands of distractions tugging us from every direction.
It's also true, though, that there are things that help us deal somewhat with the distractions - both directly (various ADHD medications, stimulants) and indirectly (getting great sleep, exercise, happy home lives, etc).
And, of course, anything that would actually help us during those brief blessed stretches of uninterrupted work would be wonderful as well.
> If a substance actually does anything real, and
> there is potential for a pharmaceutical company
> to patent and profit from it,
Well, maybe not?
There's two things there - efficacy and potential profitability. There's a whole wealth of substances, from vitamin supplements to aspirin to melatonin, that are quite effective but not overly profitable... at least not on the scale of a blockbuster, patented drug.
I don't think there are any magic cures for cancer that fall into the category of "effective, but not profitable" but I do think there's hope that there are substances that might boost brain function by... let's say 5% or 10%, or some other modest but useful amount.
> As an aside, what is the point of taking a serious nootropic for software development? Typically, a coder's problem isn't failure to get into a groove once they have uninterrupted time. The typical problem is not having uninterrupted time in the first place.
Procrastination can also be a pretty big problem for a coder, and theoretically a drug could help there.
Yes, and in my personal experience they're more effective than drugs alone.
In fact, with out a process or at least a process-oriented approach in place, ADHD medication or other stimulants alone can create hilarious-but-frustrating situation where you're all hopped up on meds and your laser-like focus gets "locked onto" something totally useless, like reorganizing your music collection instead of completing the programming task that really needs to be done.
However, medication (for those that need it) plus a process-oriented approach (or at least a solid task list) is the most effective combination of all.
Haha. The sad thing is that's kind of what I tell myself.
10% of my brain: "I know you have a couple hundred lines of code to write before tomorrow morning, soooooooo let's make a playlist! The ultimate programming playlist!"
90% of my brain: "That is the stupidest idea ever. You should really just get your work done and then you can relax, and maybe put a playlist together for next time."
10% of my brain: "Whatever lol I have veto power"
Annnnd this is why ADHD is classified as an executive functioning disorder and I have no problem believing it's a distant cousin of OCD.
have you tried listening to white/pink/brown noise instead of music? it works wonders for my concentration.
there are numerous noise generators online, i like this one: http://www.simplynoise.com/
No. Don't use music or any other form of noise to drown out ambient sounds at work. It causes slow but irreversible damage to your hearing. In game theory terms, such an act constitutes rewarding defection (employer insisting on open plan office) with cooperation (harming yourself in an attempt to help your employer) - always a bad move.
I didn't know white noise causes hearing damage, sounds plausible, it's mildly annoying; the brown noise though sounds more like a waterfall and the effect is really mild and calming. In my case, we don't have an open plan office, just 3 chatty colleagues in the same space :D And they don't seem to get the headphones-on gesture.
I don't have any citations ready to hand but it's not a controversial claim; a Google search should find some. Intuitively, think of it this way: 'acceptable decibel levels' are what the human ear is optimized to receive at intermittent peak, not constant all day every day.
I'm a guy who likes music LOUD. Like, walking to class with my Walkman in college would cause people I'd pass to stop talking and stare at me. I've bought new players because they weren't loud enough. I didn't like my Nexus phone (in part) because it wouldn't play music as loud as the iPhone. I'm 46 now, and setup and manage the sound system at my church, where we like it, er, noisy. I can say with confidence that I'm the second-best set of ears in the house (behind the pastor, who has perfect pitch), and that I've lost nothing of my hearing over my lifetime.
Additionally, I say that as someone who has had to -- at various gigs -- listen to music in headphones to drown out office noise while I programmed and sysadminned. I know the "loud music causes hearing loss" is a popular thing to say -- I've heard it my whole life, just like "sitting too close to the TV causes vision loss" -- but I just don't think it's true, or at least conflated with normal loss with age (which my wife is finally admitting to).
That being said, I've recently started trying various tricyclic antidepressants for migraine prophylaxis, and I've found that they can have quite an influence on concentration. Amitryptilene had a small-but-noticeable effect. Nortriptylene had a PRONOUNCED effect. It was like that movie with Bradley Cooper. I just zoned in for the whole day. I LOVED it, but it was making me (an INTP) completely manic. I'm now trying Desipramine, and it, too, has a small-but-noticeable effect. I'm trying to live with its side effect (itching) by cutting the 10mg pills in half, but it's getting worse again, like it's building up in my system or something.
When I'm on these drugs, I don't WANT to listen to music. I find that I _notice_ that it's a distraction. It's been a habit, but I work at home most of the time, and, when my concentration wavers, I stick through the issue by "ducking" it out loud, to myself.
So, IANAD, but it seems to me that a low dose of a TCA could be considered a nootropic. There are, like, 9 different drugs in the class, all with varying side effects. I wish I could talk to an expert to correlate the various known brain-chemical effects with the various cognitive and side effects, so that I could chose the best one for me after trying 3. Seems like that ought to be enough information to zero in on the right dopamine, seratonin, et. al. profile for me. If seratonin is the MAIN chemical involved with the concentration side effect, then there's a whole class of SSRI's to deal with. But I don't know.
>> So that I can work without having to blast music through $300 noise-canceling headphones (which itself impairs focus, but is the lesser of all evils)?
Rather than listening to music, you can listen to brainwave entrainment audio (Neuro-Programmer 3 is a good program to generate these). The lack of words prevents distraction, and the audio can entrain your brain to whatever frequency is best for what you are doing (focus, brainstorming, etc). There are videos on YouTube that show EEG readings changing to match the frequency of the audio.
Also, Cerebrolysin or Fasoracetam + Coluracetam (especially when combined with exercise and keeping the body in ketosis) are much more likely to be effective than Piracetam.
>> So that I can work without having to blast music through $300 noise-canceling headphones (which itself impairs focus, but is the lesser of all evils)?
I have seen people mention noise-cancelling headphones in the context of noise and open offices. Don't anyone use noise cancelling ear muffs? I am sure listening to music 6-8 hours a day is not good for your ears.
I saw someone using ear muffs once, and I thought it was a good idea. I like brainwave entrainment (maybe lower the volume, and use passive noise cancelling headphones), as it entrains the brain to the appropriate frequency to help maintain focus, relaxation, creativity, or whatever else you're pushing for. Then again, the only frequency that's "safe" to be listened to long term is 10Hz, and entraining to the other ones take less than 1 hour.
I think people might feel that they look silly with the noise canceling earmuffs - don't they tend to be big and industrial looking?
Anyway, good noise-canceling phones can actually reduce the amount of volume you need. Sometimes I just turn the noise canceling on and enjoy the reduction in noise, without even playing music. Or I can play music quietly to mask the background noise, instead of blasting it.
> and there is potential for a pharmaceutical company to patent and profit from it, then you can generally rest assured that it will be scheduled to require a doctor's prescription
Guess what? Belgian company did this, it is sold under brand name Nootropil in many countries. The patent is already expired, so there is probably little benefit in bringing it to the US market.
A lot of the more effective nootropics like semax, phenylpiracetam, noopept and cerebrolysin were developed by Russian pharmaceutical companies and are sold as regular pharmaceuticals in Russia. Why is Russia so interested in developing brain drugs? A lot of studies with these drugs are related to fixing brain damage from alcoholism.
Piracetam is not scheduled and can still be ordered. I've tried it and noted some mild apparent positive effects, and there is some study data backing this. The effect is not dramatic.
I'm sitting in my camper near Tafraoute, Morocco -- near the painted rocks. There is nobody around for miles (kms actually). Somehow there is 80ms ping 3g internet here.
Finally I can concentrate! I'm so happy I don't work in a shared office space -- but they sort of all are shared office spaces. I think my hatred of all that drove me so far away to this place!
I take Modafinil every now and then. It's very powerful and can give me an amazing level of focus.
Even though research suggests that they have little negative long term side effects I do worry about taking them and would prefer a more natural method to get the same result.
Basically it's like this; If I get home from a 10 hour workday almost falling asleep, I can take one pill and suddenly it's like the day starts over again as my focus has returned. At the moment I feel like I need to do it as I have projects I work on in the evening that are important for my career progression.
"I had not smoked for three full months and no words can adequately describe the smoke appetite that was consuming me. I had been a smoker from my ninth year--a private one during my my first two years but a public one after that--that is to say, after my father's death. I was smoking and utterly happy before I was thirty steps from the lodge door. I do not now know what the brand of the cigar was. It was probably not choice, or the previous smoker would not have thrown it away so soon. But I realized that it was the best cigar that was ever made. The previous smoker would have thought the same if he had been without a smoke from three months. I smoked that stub without shame. I could not do it now without shame, because now I am more refined than I was then. But I would smoke it just the same. I know myself and I know the human race well enough to know that."
I am not the commenter you're replying to. But I wanted to add that I am a coder and use nicotine extensively. That plus moderate amounts of caffeine.
I use either electronic cigarettes or snus. I figure both are at least safer than cigarettes. However I am concerned that both the hardware and liquid for e-cigs is of unknown danger.
The hardware, which heats the liquid you inhale, has metal parts. There are no regulations in place about what metal they use.
Regarding the liquid, I ended up finding one manufacturer who used all USP certified ingredients (except where not applicable such as with flavorings) and tested them for numerous known toxicities. However, PG and VG (the two main carrier liquids) have never been tested for safety in regard to long-term inhalation (even though they're GRAS). Same goes for inhaling those natural and artificial flavors.
At least with snus, although it is tobacco based, the people of Sweden have used it for a long time and studies have been done to assess its safety. One study showed only a very small increase for some cancers. My main concern is gum loss or similar. However the safety of snus is associated with how it's manufactured, so like e-cigs that's kind of a wildcard.
Anyhow, as far as the mental effects, it's kind of hard for me to comment since my entire teen and adult life has been spent using nicotine. However, I believe it prevents boredom with my work and helps to keep me somewhat engaged. Probably not much different than how your favorite music makes you feel when exercising. Also it slightly improves mood like caffeine.
I've been taking vyvanse(before that adderall) for the past 10 years. I wouldn't have been able to graduate from highschool without it, I can barely function at my job(devops) without it.
I haven't noticed any long term affects, it definitely works though. It's scheduled so it's not easy to get but it definitely works compared to some of the more hit or miss OTC nootropics.
I'm willing to answer any questions if anyone is interested.
Okay, so I'm a college freshmen who graduated high school in three years but did that in a combination of excelling and getting absolute 0's in classes because I'm not able to concentrate. I believe I have adhd, for many reasons, how realistic is it getting diagnosed at 18?
Also, is there really not many noticeable long-term side effects, because I took vyvanse once and holy god it was the first time I was able to sit down and work on something straight for more than three hours without getting distracted other than things that I would naturally get in the flow with.
I'm 30 and in med school, had a similar experience in high school, and my first attempt at college wasn't too different. I couldn't have changed gears without the right diagnosis, support and medication (though medication is truly just one aspect of it).
I was diagnosed in my 20s. If you go to a therapist/psych to talk about your issues you have a good chance of working them out and getting the support you need. the first psych to dx me was through the university health department, don't be afraid to use the services that are available for you.
> (though medication is truly just one aspect of it)
Yes, this is so true. The major pieces of the puzzle for me ...from most to least important... are: good sleep, proper environment, exercise, nutrition, medication.
When I say "nutrition" I don't even mean a strict diet. The most important part there for me is simply avoiding big doses of sugar and carbs. Those leave me drained.
In France ADHD is not in the book of diseases for adults, so the psychiatrist didn't even want to try a diagnostic (and I guess he didn't have the standard tools to do it).
I've been on these drugs for at least 10 years and there are no noticeable long term side affects. The only thing you have to worry about is that they do kill your appetite so if you're taking them on a daily basis you'll have to force yourself to eat sometimes or risk being underweight.
Very unfocused, I can't spend more than 5-10 minutes on any single task without getting distracted. It is almost impossible to get "in the zone" without my medication.
You sure your high does not come from clearing out your withdrawal effects? To elaborate, smokers seem to be anxious before they get nicotine, but to what I understand the relief itself does not really come from nicotine, but because your brain is not used to not have it on hand.
Speaking for myself, there is no high. There's coming back up to normal. And yes, the positive effects to those with ADHD is 100% driven by the drug itself.
I have 36 years of managing ADHD with coping mechanisms to compare the effects of medication against, and gods below I wish I had gotten help sooner.
I was not aware that some nootropics could be used to treat conditions like ADHD. I personally use 2g dose of taurine every now and then for mental boost, but it is basically just placebo compared to what you must experience. Great to hear though that you've found a cure - I happen to have restless leg, which has been enough to shake my mental sanity, as I have been unable to focus on anything. Having that inside your head must been quite harder to cope with, so kudos for you.
I just started adderall for add-inattentive. So far I don't notice a pronounced effect. I've tried Modafinil in the past and 10mg of Adderall 2X daily doesn't really compare.
From what I understand, the effect should be something like putting on glasses when you have myopia.
What was your experience with Adderall and why did you switch? Vyvanse is an all-day dose, right? Did it affect your sleep?
> From what I understand, the effect should be something like putting on glasses when you have myopia.
Yes and no. I'm myopic and have been since I was a small child I was also diagnosed with ADHD a year ago at age 35 and have been medicated for the last year.
Without glasses I'm basically blind. I can put them on and see, take them off and I'm back. I have control.
Without my medication if I go into a crowded room I am listening to a dozen conversations at once, giving each speaker the same amount of attention even though they are speaking at the same time and not to me. With my medication (40mg Vyvanse) I can go into a crowded room and hold a coherent conversation with someone and ignore the other conversations around me for the most part. I hear them but I can essentially choose to give most of my attention to whom I want.
Without the drugs I slip into hyper focus on things like a good book or a video game, completely losing track of time and actually not noticing when someone comes up and talks to me or interrupts me. This was really bad when I was a teenager and I'd read 700-800 pages when I should have been sleeping but I would have no idea how much time had passed. This still happens with the medication but it's easier to break away. With the medication I have more control over what I'm focused on but it's just a drug, if you are focused on the wrong thing it doesn't care. That being said it's not like people without ADHD describe where they lock into cleaning their house when they meant to be working. More willpower and impulse control are things I'd say I have when medicated.
I have more control but not complete control. I can't turn it off until it runs its course unlike the glasses that I can take off any time I want. With glasses it's simple, I can see or I can't. With the drug it's not simple at all. Things are better but it's not a silver bullet and the wrong drug or the wrong dosage can have no effect or a negative effect.
I took ritalin initially but it just made me angry, sweaty and made my heart race with the bonus of terrible crashes in the early evening and no impact on the actual ADHD issues. With Adderall I needed to be working on what I wanted to before I took it because it kicked in fast and hard, it was effective to an extent but it wasn't great. With Vyvanse I'm taking a similar drug but it's uptake is slower and the comedown is slower I can ease into my work day, I tend to be more able to easily pick and choose which things I focus on and I'm much less impulsive. None of the issues are gone but like the glasses for my myopia the fog is lifted a bit with the effect of the amphetamines. Before I took them I just assumed I wasn't as bright as everyone thought and that I need to work ten times harder to produce the same output. Since I've been medicated I feel normal for the most part and it's allowed me to have a more normal work life balance as I don't constantly feel like I'm behind or that I can't get things done. This is largely because I'm more effective when I am working where as before I was distracted but didn't really realize it or explained it away as multitasking.
> Vyvanse is an all-day dose, right? Did it affect your sleep?
It is an all day dose, 12-16 hours depending on the literature but I find it lasted about 6 on my first dosage and I get about 8 with 40mg. I can probably go up to 50mg but I'm happy with where I'm at. I don't feel a big difference when I'm on the drug like I did initially but I'm still better able to handle the day and my tasks than I am without it. Normalcy was what I was really looking for. I don't take it on the weekends which has helped a bit with tolerance and taking a 10 day break over the Christmas holiday really showed me how much tolerance was becoming an issue for me. An alternative to a bigger dose if it doesn't last all day is to get an instant release secondar...
Adderall worked well but gave my headaches and some other minor side effects, my doctor recommended Vyvanse and it worked pretty much the same without the headaches. It does not affect my sleep at all.
I too take Adderall for ADHD, and it's been crazy how useful it has been. It lets me actually control where my concentration is spent, and the ability finally follow through on plans pretty nice. I can also access my long term memory more readily, and don't run into corners continuously.
I don't get any of the "high" effects - no endless reserves of energy, no hyper-focus, no mood swings. I do become fairly dehydrated on it, so I end up drinking more water than usual.
All that said, if I didn't have to take it, I probably wouldn't. Stimulants can be pretty hard on the body, and being dependent on a stimulant is not a state I enjoy being in.
As a fellow devop, I say that you shouldn't need drugs to do your job. IF you have to stay that late all every day, its time to rip it all out and start again...
to quote from drugs.com:
"Lisdexamfetamine is a drug of abuse and may be habit-forming."
But that said, you've heard these all before.
To new users; Long term use usually requires higher doses, the longer you're on them the worse the withdrawl symptoms. The majority of these drugs work in a similar way to coke, with all the either positive/negative personality changes that come with them.
I've never had to change my dosage of vyvanse for the past 4 years and have 0 withdrawal symptoms (I don't take them on the weekends or holidays, i've stopped for over 3 weeks before with 0 withdrawal symptoms).
Why'd you switch from adderall to vyvanse? I've been thinking about going to see a doc about getting back on something like that for a while now. I've... not been so well since I stopped. (fellow SE Michigander here)
I've been taking vyvanse(before that adderall) for the past 10 years. I wouldn't have been able to graduate from highschool without it, I can barely function at my job(devops) without it.
I haven't noticed any long term affects, it definitely works though. It's scheduled so it's not easy to get but it definitely works compared to some of the more hit or miss OTC nootropics.
I'm willing to answer any questions if anyone is interested.
Never took any drugs. Found that hot chocolate worked better for me than coffee to wake me up. However, the one safe drug I keep hearing about is modafinil. How safe? I don't know.
All it takes for me to get focus when I'm sleepy is the glow of a computer screen. It turns out that light hitting your eyes tells your brain it's not time to sleep.
Never took any drugs. Found that hot chocolate worked better for me than coffee to wake me up. However, the one safe drug I keep hearing about is modafinil. How safe? I don't know.
All it takes for me to get focus when I'm sleepy is the glow of a computer screen. It turns out that light hitting your eyes tells your brain it's not time to sleep.
I tried something called Alpha-Brain by Onnit Labs based in Austin. The main ingredients of which are tyrosine, theanine and a bunch of other stuff. It is marketed as improving focus/memory.
I used it for a couple of weeks and saw no benefits. The only noticeable change was my dreams got vivid when taking it (which is also claimed by them).
When taking it, I also had short episode that felt like onset of a sudden dementia, I could not remember anything. Example: I couldnt remember where my car was parked when I was standing right in front of it. I dont know if it is caused by Alpha-Brain, but I was not taking anything else during that period. I stopped taking it soon after.
Like they say, there is no biological free lunch.
I would say the safest way is probably good nutrition, enough sleep and exercise.
For those of you who do take them: Aren't you concerned by side effects and/or long term health effects? Not judging, just genuinely curious; I've looked into them but it seems the general consensus is that their effects, both short and long term, are not very well understood yet.
In the hacker community, I've never seen a article/discussion on the benefits of these substances that didn't include a healthy dose of skepticism coupled with lot of concern regarding the side effects.
I use Armodafinil/Modafinil 4-5 times per week, cycling for a few days here and there.
I've considered a lot of others as well (e.g. *racetams - avoided on reports of 'brain fog' and a few of mental impairment - scary!). However, out of the dozens(?) I ended up considering, Modafinil was the only one I ended up deciding to try and ultimately take regularly.
I've read enough studies (and try to keep up to date) to know what our current knowledge about it is. In almost all of the studies, side-effects have been fairly standard (headaches, a few people getting sick, etc.). It's been used on-prescription for the past decade without seeing any uproar.
In the long-term, I consider the risk of unknowns worth the reward. Most evidence points to it being fairly safe, if not, that's a gamble I might pay for.
I drink alcohol to have fun, often to excess. I eat junk food. I actively choose to do a lot of things that shorten my lifespan for negligible returns.
If this little magic pill, which costs the same as a bottle of coca cola, makes me feel motivated and alert for 14 hours a day, I'm going to take it until I find a reason not to.
Also, after years of experimenting with caffeine I'm convinced that for me, one cup in the morning is close to ideal. Caffeine stays in the body for many hours, so it's all too easy to fall into the trap where you're tired, so you drink more, &etc.
222 comments
[ 2.2 ms ] story [ 250 ms ] threadFrom time to time I am able to actually get stuff done.
I also trialled dexedrine (which made me behave like a ... not nice person) and strattera (which did nothing for me).
https://drgrcevich.wordpress.com/2014/02/23/why-your-kids-co...
More here (pdf):
https://ejournals.library.ualberta.ca/index.php/JPPS/article...
(osmosis is the movement of water across a semi permeable membrane, roughly speaking, the pill is arranged so that water is drawn into it, creating pressure that pushes the drug out of a small hole.)
The particular mechanism used in Concerta does appear to be under patent.
That said, I didn't know that the generic versions used a completely different delivery mechanism; thanks for the links!
My plan is to talk to a psychiatrist about trialling some of the other drugs approved in the USA; we'll see how it goes.
If something cheaper becomes available I'd use it.
For a chunk of humanity $5 is their entire discretionary daily spend (and for some it is their entire daily spend).
One of my coworkers is normal, not like me. When he works in the office there's a lot more socializing, which is great, but it always makes me feel terribly non-productive.
I've heard of it being prescribed off-label for people with ADHD diagnoses.
Went on and off and noticed some memory improvement.
> Nootropics, also referred to as smart drugs, memory enhancers, neuro enhancers, cognitive enhancers, and intelligence enhancers, are drugs, supplements, nutraceuticals, and functional foods that improve one or more aspects of mental function, such as working memory, motivation, and attention.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic
(Ketogenic = High fat, carb restricted diet)
Additional benefits include weight loss while eating as much as you want, never getting hungry, being able to do a 10km run on an empty stomach and still be full of energy ..
Not sure what is best to be honest since lack of sleep brings a lot of problems by itself.
Previously i had to use Caffeine and occasionally Ephedra to stay properly focused on programming tasks. But the people around me often thought i was angry and annoyed easily, that is completely the opposite now that i'm "on" Ketones.
> the brain starts burning ketones in order to more directly use the energy from the fat stores that are being depended upon, and to reserve the glucose only for its absolute needs [1]
Additionally -
> Because the brain can only power 70% of its action on ketones, glucose will have to be used no matter what. However, because glucose can be derived from non-carbohydrate sources such as protein, a low carb or no carb diet does not starve the brain of its required energy. [2]
And your absolutely right in regards to experiencing the benefits of removing sugar from the diet.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis
[2] http://www.nootropicmind.com/better-brain-fuel-source-carbs-...
http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/ketosis-advantaged-or-mis...
I also quit getting blackout drunk 4-5 nights a week.
I also do a heavy dose of caffeine in the morning.
A lot of the drugs with strong effects necessarily have long term consequences from repeated use owing to their mechanisms of action.
You risk making yourself 'dumber' over time with prolonged use. Especially, with the amphetamine based crap that US doctors seem okay to use for medical purposes despite most of the developed world not doing so, and using safer alternatives.
The major concern with Modafinil is that we just don't know what the long term side effects are. That's the risk you take.
Long term effects are tolerance, and.. not much else. It has to be cycled regularly. If you abuse it or fail to socialize/have fun enough it'll end up making you feel like a zombie. It's been in regular use for a decade and a half, I haven't heard of any serious issues.
The main risks are the first time you take it. If you're allergic you can have some very serious reactions. In addition, if you're in a high-risk group (low immune system, etc.), you want to avoid the slight risk of SJS/TEN is can cause. SJS/TEN is probably the most terrifying risk, although it's extremely rare, and hundreds of other drugs can cause it too.
Each of these substances are amazing, but not without some danger.
- Aniracetam. Helps a lot with my concentration and working my way through problems logically.
- Caffeine/L-theanine. Caffeine is a no-brainer, but l-theanine is amazing in that at a 2:1 ration of l-theanine to caffeine it removes essentially all the jumpiness of the caffeine.
- Tianeptine. This is an anti-depressant that also helps a bit with my anxiety.
- Noopept. This one helps with my concentration quite a bit, and also makes my vision more vibrant. The vision thing doesn't matter so much, but it's pretty neat.
- Rhodiola. This helps tremendously with my anxiety and stops me from ruminating.
- Taurine. Another one that helps me with my anxiety, and has the added benefit of helping with blood pressure. Though I've had my blood pressure under control for years, it's never bad to have a helping hand.
As far as I understand, lecithin breaks down/converts to choline an inositol, and it's these which are causing the mental effect. Since it's a food, the effects aren't as immediate. You'll notice it more on day two.
I'm concerned about the long term effects of taking a psychoactive substance every day. However the one that I take has been used for a while so the long term effects are probably more well known that some of the new ones like Modafinil.
I would be extremely careful and think twice about going down this road unless you absolutely need to. I have a lot of experience fiddling with my body chemistry and usually I decide to stop after a while.
IIRC Sigmund Freud had a similar experience, where he injected himself with cocaine 3 times a day for ten years and wrote about it... then after he stopped came to the conclusion that the cocaine was distorting his perception and that he was actually full of shit. Cocaine is not too different from many of these substances.
Enjoy and be safe!
EDIT: bonus reading for the weekend: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/weaknesses.html
I investigated nootropics extensively. If you want to know the fruits of my research:
* anything that "works" has a very pronounced psychoactive effect on the brain. Which is scary in the long-term.
* by far the biggest cognitive boost you can get is SLEEPING WELL! Do this FIRST! It's easy to fix and gives a huge boost in output.
* caffeine works as well as many nootropics, with little to no side-effects if taken sensibly. Also combine with Theanine if wanting to venture into the world of "probably works and has harmless side-effects".
Did your research turn up anything negative about Modafinil?
I find Modafinil to be much more powerful than caffeine, however I do worry about long term side effects, even though my research suggests they are safe to use.
http://swombat.com/2012/2/27/modafinil-and-startups
http://www.gwern.net/Melatonin
Did not know about the MIT thing. That explains why it seems impossible to find melatonin in reasonable doses. It took me a long time even to find something as low as 1 mg pills here in europe (why would anyone ever want to buy 8 mg melatonin pills??)
No, it can't, not all hormones work that way.
See http://www.gwern.net/Melatonin for a good writeup :)
I know you meant in the normal case, but it's definitely not easy to fix for some people, like with certain health problems.
Not referring to you in particular, but it just gets a little grating when so many people talk about a good night's sleep as if it was something that anyone can just get.
What are you specifically talking about? What do you qualify as a "very pronounced psychoactive effect" "on the brain" and how is that "scary in the long-term"?
Please don't just make blanket statements without qualifying them to the rest of us. Show some evidence or reasoning to argue.
I sleep 3 to 4 hours per night. Sleeping pills leave me groggy for days, so they are out. Every 2 or 3 weeks my mind and body give up and I manage to get maybe 7 or 8 hours sleep. Insomnia sucks.
Regardless, my experience was that its only value is the placebo effect. If a substance actually does anything real, and there is potential for a pharmaceutical company to patent and profit from it, then you can generally rest assured that it will be scheduled to require a doctor's prescription. For just about everything, the over-the-counter options consist of vitamins and quackery. So either blatantly break the law, or don't.
As an aside, what is the point of taking a serious nootropic for software development? Typically, a coder's problem isn't failure to get into a groove once they have uninterrupted time. The typical problem is not having uninterrupted time in the first place. Like most people here, probably, I work in an open floor plan environment. I'm subject to constant "drive-by" interruptions that could have been handled better via email, and a neverending roar all around me as colleagues literally scream at each other about Reddit memes or video games or the latest superhero movie.
Do you have a drug that would allow me to completely shut off my hearing, peripheral vision, and other sensory input? So that I can work without having to blast music through $300 noise-canceling headphones (which itself impairs focus, but is the lesser of all evils)? If so, then I would gladly break the law to find a pharmaceutical escape from contemporary office plans that sacrifice productivity for the ability to squeeze headcount into the smallest possible space.
Just a counter-point. Melatonin is OTC in the US (sadly not where I live) and the efficacy of melatonin on sleep quality is pretty hard to dispute. It's not what you'd normally call a nootropic maybe, but having melatonin on hand has significantly improved my life
Edit: oh. Yeah. Of course, Adrafinil is OTC in the US too and that's the prodrug for Modafinil. Definitely not placebo either
The Mayo Clinic's website doesn't quite feel as strongly as you do about Melatonin:
> The hormone melatonin helps control your natural sleep-wake cycle. Some research suggests that melatonin supplements might be helpful in treating jet lag or reducing the time it takes to fall asleep — although the effect is typically mild. Side effects can include headache and daytime sleepiness. [0]
Another page from Mayo Clinic's website:
> Melatonin might also reduce the time it takes to fall asleep — although this effect is typically mild. [1]
I wouldn't tout Melatonin as the great counterexample of a nootropic that's OTC, considering it's questionable value and limited long-term use.
[0]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3278206/
Adrafinil is not OTC, it is unregulated. That means you can sell it in the "research chemical" grey market but not as a drug.
Oral testosterone? Pituitary measures it and says to the testicles, "we're good here" and testicles atrophy. Oral prednisone? Pituitary says to adrenals "we're good" and adrenals shut down cortisol production.
Melatonin, however, is externally regulated through blue light suppression. So taking it doesn't engage any feedback inhibition, it just increases blood concentration.
Normally true, but that doesn't apply to melatonin, it has no such down regulation mechanism.
right now i take 1/2 of 2.5 mg melatonin (sublingual) with 50-100 mg 5-HTP, ideally 30-45 min before going to bed.
adding 5-HTP was A MIRACLE ! after just a day or two i slept very soundly and had AMAZING dreams – we're talkin 2160p 10.5 THX Lord of the Rings epic trilogy with you playing lead role. those first few weeks i even went to bed earlier just so i could dream longer. :) prior to that it had been decades since i remembered having any dreams. (warning though, i've told several friends about it – after they tried it they had to stop because the dreams were too intense.)
i read about 5-HTP in this book i borrowed from my chiropracter: http://smile.amazon.com/5-HTP-Natural-Overcome-Depression-In... basically it states that melatonin is only part of the sleep equation, seratonin is the other part. your body can produce seratonin from 5-HTP (which is the chemical in turkey which makes you drowsy).
also:
staring at a computer screen can really mess with your sleep – due to chemical imbalance with these hormones. to help as much as possible, i installed F.lux on all of my computers.
i also recently added Modalert to my daily routine, but that's another story...
As an aside, I would definitely say get your sleep cycles right and more disciplined definitely puts you in a much higher efficiency bracket. Coupled with some simple lifestyle hacks ( playing a team outdoor sport, if you are not the workout type, no devices in bedroom rule, boring but informative tech talk to go to sleep, light and early dinners, no coffee post sunset) you would be surprised how many extra hours of high concentration work you are capable of.
The next year I got 0.1mg tablets, experimented a bit and found that 8 of those (0.8mg) was the sweet spot for me (taken about 2 hours before I want to sleep). I generally used it in the winter, when it gets dark at 16:00, which apparently can throw my cycle a little out of whack if I don't pay attention, the melatonin seemed to help to fix this a bit.
I have to say, I've never noticed really strong effects like "puts me out quickly". Just a general feeling after an hour or two, that "yeah I could sleep". If I listen to that feeling, I sleep very well. If I stay up anyway, it goes away again, and I don't really get the benefits.
One thing I noticed, after a few weeks, was when I knocked over and broke a glass of water for the third time. I wondered, "hey that seems to happen quite a lot lately..". And always in the evening after I had taken the melatonin, so I guess it does do something to my coordination or perhaps alertness. This was easily solved by taking a bit more care where I place my drinking glass after taking melatonin :)
It's also true, though, that there are things that help us deal somewhat with the distractions - both directly (various ADHD medications, stimulants) and indirectly (getting great sleep, exercise, happy home lives, etc).
And, of course, anything that would actually help us during those brief blessed stretches of uninterrupted work would be wonderful as well.
Well, maybe not?There's two things there - efficacy and potential profitability. There's a whole wealth of substances, from vitamin supplements to aspirin to melatonin, that are quite effective but not overly profitable... at least not on the scale of a blockbuster, patented drug.
I don't think there are any magic cures for cancer that fall into the category of "effective, but not profitable" but I do think there's hope that there are substances that might boost brain function by... let's say 5% or 10%, or some other modest but useful amount.
Procrastination can also be a pretty big problem for a coder, and theoretically a drug could help there.
In fact, with out a process or at least a process-oriented approach in place, ADHD medication or other stimulants alone can create hilarious-but-frustrating situation where you're all hopped up on meds and your laser-like focus gets "locked onto" something totally useless, like reorganizing your music collection instead of completing the programming task that really needs to be done.
However, medication (for those that need it) plus a process-oriented approach (or at least a solid task list) is the most effective combination of all.
10% of my brain: "I know you have a couple hundred lines of code to write before tomorrow morning, soooooooo let's make a playlist! The ultimate programming playlist!"
90% of my brain: "That is the stupidest idea ever. You should really just get your work done and then you can relax, and maybe put a playlist together for next time."
10% of my brain: "Whatever lol I have veto power"
Annnnd this is why ADHD is classified as an executive functioning disorder and I have no problem believing it's a distant cousin of OCD.
Additionally, I say that as someone who has had to -- at various gigs -- listen to music in headphones to drown out office noise while I programmed and sysadminned. I know the "loud music causes hearing loss" is a popular thing to say -- I've heard it my whole life, just like "sitting too close to the TV causes vision loss" -- but I just don't think it's true, or at least conflated with normal loss with age (which my wife is finally admitting to).
That being said, I've recently started trying various tricyclic antidepressants for migraine prophylaxis, and I've found that they can have quite an influence on concentration. Amitryptilene had a small-but-noticeable effect. Nortriptylene had a PRONOUNCED effect. It was like that movie with Bradley Cooper. I just zoned in for the whole day. I LOVED it, but it was making me (an INTP) completely manic. I'm now trying Desipramine, and it, too, has a small-but-noticeable effect. I'm trying to live with its side effect (itching) by cutting the 10mg pills in half, but it's getting worse again, like it's building up in my system or something.
When I'm on these drugs, I don't WANT to listen to music. I find that I _notice_ that it's a distraction. It's been a habit, but I work at home most of the time, and, when my concentration wavers, I stick through the issue by "ducking" it out loud, to myself.
So, IANAD, but it seems to me that a low dose of a TCA could be considered a nootropic. There are, like, 9 different drugs in the class, all with varying side effects. I wish I could talk to an expert to correlate the various known brain-chemical effects with the various cognitive and side effects, so that I could chose the best one for me after trying 3. Seems like that ought to be enough information to zero in on the right dopamine, seratonin, et. al. profile for me. If seratonin is the MAIN chemical involved with the concentration side effect, then there's a whole class of SSRI's to deal with. But I don't know.
Rather than listening to music, you can listen to brainwave entrainment audio (Neuro-Programmer 3 is a good program to generate these). The lack of words prevents distraction, and the audio can entrain your brain to whatever frequency is best for what you are doing (focus, brainstorming, etc). There are videos on YouTube that show EEG readings changing to match the frequency of the audio.
Also, Cerebrolysin or Fasoracetam + Coluracetam (especially when combined with exercise and keeping the body in ketosis) are much more likely to be effective than Piracetam.
I have seen people mention noise-cancelling headphones in the context of noise and open offices. Don't anyone use noise cancelling ear muffs? I am sure listening to music 6-8 hours a day is not good for your ears.
Anyway, good noise-canceling phones can actually reduce the amount of volume you need. Sometimes I just turn the noise canceling on and enjoy the reduction in noise, without even playing music. Or I can play music quietly to mask the background noise, instead of blasting it.
Pretty comprehensive review of the market leaders. There's really only one brand of headphone that has solid noise canceling.... http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-noise-cancelling-headp...
Guess what? Belgian company did this, it is sold under brand name Nootropil in many countries. The patent is already expired, so there is probably little benefit in bringing it to the US market.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracetam#History
Finally I can concentrate! I'm so happy I don't work in a shared office space -- but they sort of all are shared office spaces. I think my hatred of all that drove me so far away to this place!
Even though research suggests that they have little negative long term side effects I do worry about taking them and would prefer a more natural method to get the same result.
Basically it's like this; If I get home from a 10 hour workday almost falling asleep, I can take one pill and suddenly it's like the day starts over again as my focus has returned. At the moment I feel like I need to do it as I have projects I work on in the evening that are important for my career progression.
He smoked the stub without shame.
I use either electronic cigarettes or snus. I figure both are at least safer than cigarettes. However I am concerned that both the hardware and liquid for e-cigs is of unknown danger.
The hardware, which heats the liquid you inhale, has metal parts. There are no regulations in place about what metal they use.
Regarding the liquid, I ended up finding one manufacturer who used all USP certified ingredients (except where not applicable such as with flavorings) and tested them for numerous known toxicities. However, PG and VG (the two main carrier liquids) have never been tested for safety in regard to long-term inhalation (even though they're GRAS). Same goes for inhaling those natural and artificial flavors.
At least with snus, although it is tobacco based, the people of Sweden have used it for a long time and studies have been done to assess its safety. One study showed only a very small increase for some cancers. My main concern is gum loss or similar. However the safety of snus is associated with how it's manufactured, so like e-cigs that's kind of a wildcard.
Anyhow, as far as the mental effects, it's kind of hard for me to comment since my entire teen and adult life has been spent using nicotine. However, I believe it prevents boredom with my work and helps to keep me somewhat engaged. Probably not much different than how your favorite music makes you feel when exercising. Also it slightly improves mood like caffeine.
I haven't noticed any long term affects, it definitely works though. It's scheduled so it's not easy to get but it definitely works compared to some of the more hit or miss OTC nootropics.
I'm willing to answer any questions if anyone is interested.
Also, is there really not many noticeable long-term side effects, because I took vyvanse once and holy god it was the first time I was able to sit down and work on something straight for more than three hours without getting distracted other than things that I would naturally get in the flow with.
I was diagnosed in my 20s. If you go to a therapist/psych to talk about your issues you have a good chance of working them out and getting the support you need. the first psych to dx me was through the university health department, don't be afraid to use the services that are available for you.
When I say "nutrition" I don't even mean a strict diet. The most important part there for me is simply avoiding big doses of sugar and carbs. Those leave me drained.
I was diagnosed as a 32 year old.
I have 36 years of managing ADHD with coping mechanisms to compare the effects of medication against, and gods below I wish I had gotten help sooner.
From what I understand, the effect should be something like putting on glasses when you have myopia.
What was your experience with Adderall and why did you switch? Vyvanse is an all-day dose, right? Did it affect your sleep?
Yes and no. I'm myopic and have been since I was a small child I was also diagnosed with ADHD a year ago at age 35 and have been medicated for the last year.
Without glasses I'm basically blind. I can put them on and see, take them off and I'm back. I have control.
Without my medication if I go into a crowded room I am listening to a dozen conversations at once, giving each speaker the same amount of attention even though they are speaking at the same time and not to me. With my medication (40mg Vyvanse) I can go into a crowded room and hold a coherent conversation with someone and ignore the other conversations around me for the most part. I hear them but I can essentially choose to give most of my attention to whom I want.
Without the drugs I slip into hyper focus on things like a good book or a video game, completely losing track of time and actually not noticing when someone comes up and talks to me or interrupts me. This was really bad when I was a teenager and I'd read 700-800 pages when I should have been sleeping but I would have no idea how much time had passed. This still happens with the medication but it's easier to break away. With the medication I have more control over what I'm focused on but it's just a drug, if you are focused on the wrong thing it doesn't care. That being said it's not like people without ADHD describe where they lock into cleaning their house when they meant to be working. More willpower and impulse control are things I'd say I have when medicated.
I have more control but not complete control. I can't turn it off until it runs its course unlike the glasses that I can take off any time I want. With glasses it's simple, I can see or I can't. With the drug it's not simple at all. Things are better but it's not a silver bullet and the wrong drug or the wrong dosage can have no effect or a negative effect.
I took ritalin initially but it just made me angry, sweaty and made my heart race with the bonus of terrible crashes in the early evening and no impact on the actual ADHD issues. With Adderall I needed to be working on what I wanted to before I took it because it kicked in fast and hard, it was effective to an extent but it wasn't great. With Vyvanse I'm taking a similar drug but it's uptake is slower and the comedown is slower I can ease into my work day, I tend to be more able to easily pick and choose which things I focus on and I'm much less impulsive. None of the issues are gone but like the glasses for my myopia the fog is lifted a bit with the effect of the amphetamines. Before I took them I just assumed I wasn't as bright as everyone thought and that I need to work ten times harder to produce the same output. Since I've been medicated I feel normal for the most part and it's allowed me to have a more normal work life balance as I don't constantly feel like I'm behind or that I can't get things done. This is largely because I'm more effective when I am working where as before I was distracted but didn't really realize it or explained it away as multitasking.
> Vyvanse is an all-day dose, right? Did it affect your sleep?
It is an all day dose, 12-16 hours depending on the literature but I find it lasted about 6 on my first dosage and I get about 8 with 40mg. I can probably go up to 50mg but I'm happy with where I'm at. I don't feel a big difference when I'm on the drug like I did initially but I'm still better able to handle the day and my tasks than I am without it. Normalcy was what I was really looking for. I don't take it on the weekends which has helped a bit with tolerance and taking a 10 day break over the Christmas holiday really showed me how much tolerance was becoming an issue for me. An alternative to a bigger dose if it doesn't last all day is to get an instant release secondar...
I don't get any of the "high" effects - no endless reserves of energy, no hyper-focus, no mood swings. I do become fairly dehydrated on it, so I end up drinking more water than usual.
All that said, if I didn't have to take it, I probably wouldn't. Stimulants can be pretty hard on the body, and being dependent on a stimulant is not a state I enjoy being in.
to quote from drugs.com:
"Lisdexamfetamine is a drug of abuse and may be habit-forming."
But that said, you've heard these all before.
To new users; Long term use usually requires higher doses, the longer you're on them the worse the withdrawl symptoms. The majority of these drugs work in a similar way to coke, with all the either positive/negative personality changes that come with them.
You need to learn about mental health and, in this case, ADHD. You can't just wish mental health issues away.
If your job makes you worse, you must change.
Also I've been taking these drugs for almost my entire life so I think I'm a better judge of what I need to do my job than you.
I haven't noticed any long term affects, it definitely works though. It's scheduled so it's not easy to get but it definitely works compared to some of the more hit or miss OTC nootropics.
I'm willing to answer any questions if anyone is interested.
All it takes for me to get focus when I'm sleepy is the glow of a computer screen. It turns out that light hitting your eyes tells your brain it's not time to sleep.
http://sleepdisorders.about.com/b/2013/01/26/30-days-to-bett...
All it takes for me to get focus when I'm sleepy is the glow of a computer screen. It turns out that light hitting your eyes tells your brain it's not time to sleep.
http://sleepdisorders.about.com/b/2013/01/26/30-days-to-bett...
I used it for a couple of weeks and saw no benefits. The only noticeable change was my dreams got vivid when taking it (which is also claimed by them). When taking it, I also had short episode that felt like onset of a sudden dementia, I could not remember anything. Example: I couldnt remember where my car was parked when I was standing right in front of it. I dont know if it is caused by Alpha-Brain, but I was not taking anything else during that period. I stopped taking it soon after.
Like they say, there is no biological free lunch. I would say the safest way is probably good nutrition, enough sleep and exercise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theanine
Didn't notice a thing.
In the hacker community, I've never seen a article/discussion on the benefits of these substances that didn't include a healthy dose of skepticism coupled with lot of concern regarding the side effects.
I've considered a lot of others as well (e.g. *racetams - avoided on reports of 'brain fog' and a few of mental impairment - scary!). However, out of the dozens(?) I ended up considering, Modafinil was the only one I ended up deciding to try and ultimately take regularly.
I've read enough studies (and try to keep up to date) to know what our current knowledge about it is. In almost all of the studies, side-effects have been fairly standard (headaches, a few people getting sick, etc.). It's been used on-prescription for the past decade without seeing any uproar.
In the long-term, I consider the risk of unknowns worth the reward. Most evidence points to it being fairly safe, if not, that's a gamble I might pay for.
I drink alcohol to have fun, often to excess. I eat junk food. I actively choose to do a lot of things that shorten my lifespan for negligible returns.
If this little magic pill, which costs the same as a bottle of coca cola, makes me feel motivated and alert for 14 hours a day, I'm going to take it until I find a reason not to.
Also, after years of experimenting with caffeine I'm convinced that for me, one cup in the morning is close to ideal. Caffeine stays in the body for many hours, so it's all too easy to fall into the trap where you're tired, so you drink more, &etc.