I think it's quite easy to neglect your own highlights reel and forget the good things you have going on in your own life. Made even more difficult if you don't actually post to facebook. Ultimately though, everyone's life has ups and downs; people tend to cherry pick the ups when posting to facebook, which is certainly worth remembering if you spend long periods of time on there obsessing over how much better other peoples' lives seem to be.
I think most people realize this anecdotally but the switching costs are too high for many to remove themselves.
Personally, I have many connections exclusively only on FB - I don't have their emails, phone numbers, etc - that I remain on FB only to be able to message them.
I wish I could automatically message them and easily collect their email/phone #s with minimal effort...probably a way but I haven't looked into it.
"I wish I could automatically message them and easily collect their email/phone #s with minimal effort...probably a way but I haven't looked into it."
Have you considered asking for their email address? Could send them a private message on Facebook saying you're considering leaving Facebook but would still like to keep in touch. I imagine most people would be fine with sharing their email address if they've already linked up with you on Facebook.
I suspect these people your age making a lot more money lead lives similar to what's described in this article. These do not seem like happy lives to me!
If you're actively saving lives, that is more valuable than all the money in the world, and I thank you.
To react to other people's portrayed successfulness with doubting the legitimacy or their honesty and suspecting those people to be actually unhappy is almost as immature as getting depressed by it.
If you have very little, you've got very little to worry about...
An attractive statement but totally wrong.
If you have very little - if you are poor, you have to worry about renting a roof for yourself, and food to eat, and clean-enough water, and having enough warmth, and healthcare, and then all of those things for each member of your family.
Every second of every day.
So much that you cannot manage anything else.
That contributes towards depression, sure.
Find something you truly love doing? This is usually something that rich people have the capacity and opportunity to do.
Seeing people with lots of money doesn't depress me, although reading about people struggling with money or health issues can be depressing.
In my case I don't care that person X has more money than I do, since as long as I have enough for basic living money itself isn't something which I care deeply about.
I get depressed reading HN because a lot of the stories are about people my age who are making a lot more money than me.
I don't care too much about money. For me it's been more difficult to cope with the fact that there are so many people who are far more clever than I am. What's one's purpose if so many people can do it better?
(Before I sound too depressed: I am a happy person, I have come to appreciate that enjoying the craft you do is the most important thing. After family and friends.)
Regardless, I think that there is a large qualitative difference between e.g. Hackernews and Facebook. On Facebook people brag about their fortune (or bad luck), on Hackernews there are many genuinely interesting technical discussions where one can learn a lot.
I get encouraged reading HN. It's not a zero-sum game, a rising tide lifts all boats and all that. Having so many smart people eg developing cool open source helps me, and vice versa.
Sometimes I wonder, though, what's the purpose of associating oneself with advances in the world? If you knew other people could do it better, would you still want your solution to win? I guess the answer is that we don't know other solutions are definitely better, when everyone is developing theirs, and betteris a relative term.
Perhaps it's more interesting to think in terms of Alan Watts' philosophy of growing and competing. Things just happen and there is no "ceramic theory" of good ideas.
“Do not do what someone else could do as well as you. Do not say, do not write what someone else could say, could write as well as you. Care for nothing in yourself but what you feel exists nowhere else. And, out of yourself create, impatiently or patiently, the most irreplaceable of beings.”
―André Gide
I love hearing mathematicians talk about picking problems. You think hackers have it hard about seeing other peoples accomplishments and feeling powerless? Try being a mathematician and hearing about how Gauss or Euler were better than you at the age of 15! And mathematicians devote their whole [professional] life to solving problems.
One advice I hear often is: if you're not the quickest, just don't try to race anyone else for solving a problem (there are many people you could legitimately call 'genius' working on certain problems!). Work on things you know no one else is working with -- if you fail, it's only because the results aren't very useful (but for most things it's really hard to tell when they'll be useful anyway). I call this "work orthogonalization".
And there's my favorite, and probably most often said: be guided by beauty. If you feel what you're solving is "just right", it most likely will work and will work well.
Common sense stuff, so it has exceptions of course. Engineering for instance has a whole extra layer where we have to deal with physics, resource constraints and follow more closely the needs and demands of our users.
"if you're not the quickest, just don't try to race anyone else for solving a problem"
I have heard that too. I was talking with a noted probabilist, who co-authored a well-regarded book, about some work that Michel Talagrand (a very accomplished mathematician) was starting to publish.
He said, "just have to get out of the way," and when I gave a quizzical look, continued, "That guy is a bulldozer." Basically, you might sweat for a year and end up being a special case of a more general result that Talagrand just proved.
>I don't care too much about money. For me it's been more difficult to cope with the fact that there are so many people who are far more clever than I am. What's one's purpose if so many people can do it better?
Who said man's purpose is to "do" things?
Life's purpose is to just be here, have fun, be kind to others, and read a good book from time to time. And raise some kids if you want to see humanity continue onwards.
Anything else is like saying that all these people who did just that and didn't cure cancer or sold their startup for 10B are not worthy humans.
> Life's purpose is to just be here, have fun, be kind to others, and read a good book from time to time. And raise some kids if you want to see humanity continue onwards.
Indeed. But personally, I'm aware that we don't have a self-sustaining system that would allow everyone to do just that - hence I find meaning in helping to enable that (and as a corollary, I find work (as in, jobs) that don't serve to further or maintain this goal meaningless and depressing).
I have come to appreciate that enjoying the craft you do is the most important thing. After family and friends.
Indeed... This reminds me of a dialogue in Iain Banks' Use of Weapons, between a stranger and a woman from the Culture, a society technologically advanced to the point that machines do everything better than the humans:
“Can’t machines build these faster?” he asked the woman,
looking around the starship shell.
“Why, of course!” she laughed.
“Then why do you do it?”
“It’s fun. You see one of these big mothers sail out
those doors for the first time, heading for deep space, three
hundred people on board, everything working, the Mind quite
happy, and you think; I helped build that. The fact a machine
could have done it faster doesn’t alter the fact that it was
you who actually did it.”
“Hmm,” he said.
(Learn woodwork; metalwork; they will not make you a
carpenter or a blacksmith any more than mastering writing will
make you a clerk.)
“Well, you may ‘hmm’ as you wish,” the woman said,
approaching a translucent hologram of the half-completed ship,
where a few other construction workers were standing, pointing
inside the model and talking. “But have you ever been gliding,
or swum underwater?”
“Yes,” he agreed.
The woman shrugged. “Yet birds fly better than we do,
and fish swim better. Do we stop gliding or swimming because
of this?”
He smiled. “I suppose not.”
“You suppose correctly,” the woman said. “And why?” she
looked at him, grinning. “Because it’s fun.”
I think it's a great answer to the question of why do things,
but it doesn't address the problem of one's purpose...
+1 Oooh, yes. Your pithy comment reminded me of this vlog brothers post where he relates his small Midwestern town to Renaissance Venice. I couldn't find the video if I wanted, the search terms are too popular.
Still, same thing, locality is important. I wish it was stressed more often in this increasingly globalized world.
The sad part of this is that in psychological experiments it has been shown that people feel better about themselves if they see other people doing worse than them.
It says something about human nature that perhaps we need to fix, rather than just suppressing the symptoms by avoiding things like facebook.
Very successful people don't waste all their time on HN/slashdot/FB. If all you're doing is reading about those people on those sites, stop and focus your efforts on something constructive. Reading HN is fake work.
> I get depressed reading HN because a lot of the stories are about people my age who are making a lot more money than me.
I'm certainly not getting depressed from this - but I find this trend fairly annoying as well. There is fairly dominant sub-community on HN who try to communicate as often as possible how extremely smart they are and humblebrag about some start-up or how they declined an offer from Google.
But I think this sub-population is actually minority. The majority of HN readers is just curious about the subjects itself - those contribute the highest value on here in my experience.
I wouldn't use the word depressed though, I'm not depressed, I'm annoyed.
My issue with something like HN isn't that other people are making money, are smarter or doing cool projects. My issue is that so many people are doing stupid things (in my mind), and making a ton of money from VC funding.
Someone who can create and make a living of product or service that's useful to others is wonderful. If you can't get by without funding and you don't seem to have a viable business plan, that's really infuriating. I don't think it's okay to just burn other people money until a business plan materialises. We wouldn't have Twitter, Facebook and a ton of other companies, I understand that, but I'm also okay with it.
there's plenty of terrible shit going on in this world to be annoyed about. i don't think dot com bros making money off the internet is really anywhere near the top of my list.
One thing that has always stuck with me is the phrase "Facebook is only a collection of the highlights in someones life". Most people only post the positive stuff about their lives to facebook, which makes their lives look way more awesome then they probably are.
Is it the highlights of their life? Or is it 80% politically biased news stories, pinterest desires, funny videos and pictures, complaints about random encounters with people, and lots of "This"ing?
I'm pretty skeptical about the explanatory value of the "highlights reel" theory. Anecdotally, most of what I see on Facebook is people sharing links to stuff, liking posts by public pages, saying happy birthday, and so on.
Couldn't it just be that, uh, Facebook is kinda boring? Or, as the article mentions, that "depressed feelings and lots of time on Facebook [...] go hand in hand," in other words, lonely/isolated people habitually look for connection on social media, but the kinds of communication that happen there are not very interesting or loneliness-assuaging.
David Foster Wallace's 1993 essay "E Unibus Pluram" describes a similar tendency but with television as the substituting technology:
"Every lonely human I know watches way more than the average U.S. six hours a day. The lonely, like the fictional, love one-way watching. For lonely people are usually lonely not because of hideous deformity or odor or obnoxiousness—in fact there exist today social and support groups for persons with precisely these features. Lonely people tend rather to be lonely because they decline to bear the emotional costs associated with being around other humans. They are allergic to people. People affect them too strongly. Let's call the average U.S. lonely person Joe Briefcase. Joe Briefcase just loathes the strain of the self-consciousness which so oddly seems to appear only when other real human beings are around, staring, their human sense-antennae abristle. Joe B. fears how he might appear to watchers. He sits out the stressful U.S. game of appearance poker.
"But lonely people, home, alone, still crave sights and scenes. Hence television. Joe can stare at Them, on the screen; They remain blind to Joe. It's almost like voyeurism."
> Joe Briefcase just loathes the strain of the self-consciousness which so oddly seems to appear only when other real human beings are around, staring, their human sense-antennae abristle. Joe B. fears how he might appear to watchers.
That's called social anxiety, just FYI.
And yeah, it's plausible that people which have social anxiety are more prone to overusing social media etc.
Yeah, I guess. A study cited on Wikipedia claims that around 18% of American adults have some kind of social anxiety disorder, that is, chronic and debilitating forms of social anxiety. Of course, nearly everyone experiences social anxiety from time to time.
> "It doesn't mean Facebook causes depression, but that depressed feelings and lots of time on Facebook and comparing oneself to others tend to go hand in hand," said Steers.
It's pretty explicit that they're not claiming causality.
I've had severe social anxiety for the bulk of my life. I've gone through periods of replacing it with a fundamentally dissociative awareness. The best I can describe it is being fully submerged in the belief that life is a dream, and nothing that happens actually matters.
It's tough, but what actually works for me now, is giving other people the respect and privacy they need, by not thinking about how they think. You'd be surprised how much extra thinking time you have for everything else just by cutting your thoughts off at that line.
Still, there are no rules yet for empathy, and my mind can still get panicky in crowds, and there is the belief that I will be perpetually socially naive and subject to social manipulation. But I think it's better than hiding in the corner of a room, staring at the floor, maybe.
I do not really like social media. I like interesting conversations that stimulate me intellectually.
On busy sidewalks with many people moving rapidly in both directions, how are collisions avoided? If two people each attempt to intuit the other's trajectory while maintaining eye contact, a game of infinitely recursing mirrors ensues, Inception-style.
What works is to pick a path, any path, and look in the direction of that path. That is a sufficient signal for all parties to self-organize and avoid collision, even at high speeds and density of people. In other words, leading lowers the cost of following.
Even if one could mind-read, one may not like what one perceives. But humans are adaptable and can often reciprocate. If one's actions assume/imply positive intent, one can motivate positive reciprocity and reduce/avoid the cost of perceiving intent.
I think your path selecting algorithm can wind up in a state of deadlock, but it is very clever in a socially passive assertive way. There has to be a way of handling paths crossing simultaneously, non-aggressively, and this can not be resolved without additional signaling semantics.
When I was on there, to announce my transcendence over the highlight reel, I would intentionally broadcast lowlights (I need to lose a few pounds, bought a cheap pare of sneaks, hairline recession, etc) as a way to say "Im so above this pettiness I don't give an eff what you think of my life". Of course, that's just as childish, but that's where I was. So glad Im off FB.
Unhealthy levels of facebook use, particularly apparent addiction to those annoying invite games are pretty obviously not the behavior of a happy person. When ever I get a slew of invites to Candy Crush or similar, it's always from someone a bit tragic.
I mean, who else has the time to sit at home playing Facebook games, but the lack of motivation to go and do something more worthwhile?
> I mean, who else has the time to sit at home playing Facebook games, but the lack of motivation to go and do something more worthwhile?
Is a bit more complicated. On a broader perspective, this pattern usage of Facebook is entertainment exactly like watching TV is (you even get the ads!).
Considering that, based on the first statistic I've found on Google [0], the average American spends hours every day in front of a TV (even if not 5, 3/4 would be alarming), then there is a social problem, more than an individual one.
I'm probably not an average person (nor am I American), but my TV "average" is higher than actual pure TV watching. For example I could spend 8 hours with a friend, drinking some wine, chatting, with the TV on - paying attention to it at times, at others ignoring it. In terms of "how much do you watch TV" my total viewing time just went up 8 hours, but it was 8 hours of background for a night catching up with a friend, not 8 hours for the sake of passive consumption.
Equally, I'll often put easy-watching TV on when I'm at home but doing something else - working on my laptop, text-chatting to friends on Skype/WhatsApp, browsing sites like Hacker News. Again, this would raise my average, but it's not quite the same as going "what am I doing tonight? Watching the TV and nothing else" if the TV is getting a small fraction of my attention.
I just wonder to what extent this sort of half-watching increases averages, or on the flip side to what extent high-sounding averages are genuinely worrying.
Averages mean something on a well defined graph, like a bell curve, especially with some extra numbers like std deviation.
I find it nearly impossible to find a percentile graph of something like hours viewed along Y-axis and percentile population along the X. An excellent startup idea would be the very hard task of a search engine that can find graphs of a given X vs Y.
Anyway, based on what little I can find, TV watching is absolutely not a bell curve as "young people" average only 2 or so hours per day and the elderly average over a working day per day (in excess of 8 hours per day of TV over 60 years old).
My strong suspicion is TV viewership is strongly exponential vs percentile with "people in trouble" (medical problems, hospital patients, severely handicapped, addicts, prisoners) recording 24 hours/day or at least all 18 or so waking hours as viewing time, vs the majority the population in a declining exponential graph dropping to almost zero.
Given a population distribution like that, an average is fairly meaningless when trying to draw cultural conclusions. Its like using average income or average wealth to draw economic conclusions. Or doing ergonomic design based on the average number of heads being well above one (think of Siamese twins). What cultural conclusions can you make about my typical normal lifestyle based on the average number of space qualified astronauts in my country?
It is not a completely useless statistic, if the average TV draws a kilowatt then given a billion random people the electrical load due to TVs would be about 5 billion kilowatt-hours per day (5 TWh?). But the usefulness of the numbers break down when zoomed in.
Spending too much time comparing yourself to other people is depressing regardless of the media you use; someone who only reads biographies of wildly successful people will end up just as depressed as someone who spends too much time reading the edited highlights of lives on Facebook. To that end, this doesn't really have anything to do with Facebook. The medium is not the message.
More or less depressed than someone reading biographies of people in poverty and distress? Are people happier when their Facebook feeds contain more complaining? I'd guess that the "envy" effect is pretty marginal. "High levels of Facebook use" sounds to me about the same as "high levels of nail biting" or "high levels of watching cable TV." It's bored, nervous, pseudo-socializing, fruitless activity.
Can't strictly agree to pseudo-socializing or fruitless.
Online conversations have continued offline. Those were actual people I was talking to. Those conversations resume online, often enough. It's part of the fabric.
An invitation to an actual event with actual people received on facebook, because of activity or exposure there, is not fruitless activity.
But it is usually a bored, nervous activity. I can handily agree to that part.
What it "sounds like" to you is just speculation, and to that end it isn't useful. The paper in the article has been published in a peer-reviewed journal and is based on a proper scientific methodology and a pair of psychological studies. The outcome of the studies could be misunderstood but there at least appears to be some evidence for the author's conclusion.
Yeah, just speculation. I can only read the abstract of the article, but it sounds interesting. If someone with access to the journal could summarize the method, that'd be cool.
This sounds far more likely to me. If I'm having a crap time and have no energy I'm far more likely to passively consume Facebook than I am to actually leave the house and see somebody.
For me it works the other way. If I have something interesting and creative to work on, forget Facebook I'll get absorbed in my work. If I am back to fixing the same dumb errors in users excel spreadsheets, then I get kind of pissed off (having complained to management that it is a crap solution to the problem many times). I become unenthusiastic and end up checking Facebook a lot more regularly.
More seriously, depression is linked to compulsive purchases.
Now I'm not saying that they're intentionally adopting features and styles that depress their users, but should they stumble into one by chance fixing will hurt revenues. What outcome should we expect?
Fear powerful optimization processes. Harm to mankind from inhuman intelligences doesn't require fancy AI: in the halls of the corporate Chinese room surprising behavior can arise just as well from complexity systems which are ultimately made of meat.
> More seriously, depression is linked to compulsive purchases.
I think in the case of Facebook it's that you are the product, more specifically: your emotions are the product. You get other stereotypes but by-and-large the most well known stereotype on Facebook is someone who shares all their emotions. Facebook even encourages it: now in a relationship, married, divorced, broke up, etc. Relationships aren't "official" until they are "Facebook official."
Your emotional drama is what shows up on your friends' feeds (as does theirs on yours). Your drama is why your friends show up to read Facebook. Whether or not they click the 'like' button determines how you feel and deal with your emotions.
When you are looking for approval for your emotions you are never dealing with your emotions. When you are never dealing with your emotions you are depressed.
As someone fighting depression , I think it's the other way around.
When I'm depressed and completely out of energy , I try and find something low effort just to shut out the negativity.
Most of the time that's scrolling through the newsfeed or aimlessly browsing porn. If Facebook didn't exist I might find something else. Facebook is the goto place to zone yourself out.
It's only a problem when life is so barren that likes on your FB post become the highlight of your day. As long as you have healthy relationships and meaningful activities it will never become a problem.
Through years of A/B testing they've trained us like rats to scroll through the newsfeed. Sometimes I'll find myself or someone else simply scrolling aimlessly , not even knowing why , just a tired brain looking for the next dopamine hit. Finally, I installed an extension that removes the newsfeed on my work computer and there's already a big improvement. I never thought such a stupid hack could make a difference , since I could always override it.
But turns out that your brain is lazy and stupid , which you can use to your advantage by making wasteful activities just a wee bit more difficult. Making new habits is easiest when you rearrange your environment.
Want to become fit. Try moving into an apartment with a cross fit freak and watch yourself change automatically.
Want to become a better developer. Get a better job on a team that uses best practices and watch yourself strive to keep up.
Ofcourse , out of all of this self improvement thinking comes the sort of existential angst that is caused by browsing FB,HN and Reddit and seeing how your life is just 1 % of what it could be and what your friends are having. This I think is separate and isn't restricted to Facebook. This has always and will continue to exist.
So yeah sometimes you just can't win :D .
These days everytime I feel depressed I have some chocolate. And also go for a vigorous walk. It sort of works but not nearly as well as it should ;) .
> As long as you have healthy relationships and meaningful activities it will never become a problem.
If someone subjectively perceives this statement to be true about her/his life - then s/he is not suffering from depression - pretty much by definition.
At least certain kinds of depression are actual, physical conditions. Sometimes without a known cure (only medication to keep the symptoms in check). Just because someone is able to move on their own, doesn't mean that their legs grew back. They might just use a wheelchair. And just because someone truly believes that they have a meaningful live, doesn't mean their depression "went away".
Sometimes I think "melancholy" was a better way to describe the situation than "dysthymia" or "major depressive disorder". It might be that's just your personality and the way you look at life. Maybe if it were possible to fully accept that temperament in this day and age it'd still be a burden, maybe not. But never forget, the depressed have a more accurate prediction of the future (though perhaps a skewed emotional emphasis). That's gotta be useful (or rather, there's gotta be a reason that trait got conserved). Regardless, as Allie Brosh put it:
> The problem might not even /have/ a solution. But you aren't necessarily looking for solutions. You're maybe just looking for someone to say "sorry about how dead your fish are" or "wow, those are super dead. I still like you, though."
I wonder if in the past society used to be more accepting of personality differences. Nowadays everyone makes a point of being so tolerant and accomodating but it's all based on the extraverted always-on always-happy norm. Anything else is fine so long as you acknowledge it's a disorder or a condition; otherwise ostracism. Feels like when I read about olden times there's more "oh, that's just how Fred is" but Fred's also an accepted part of the community.
No, one could have a lucid view of ones condition, recognize that the above is true and still suffer from depression. That's the problem. Depression is a medical condition that can't be just reasoned away. Person can identify that by several rational measures they have a great life and still suffer from depression.
I am a heavy FB user/frequently depressed person. I wanted to show my agreement with something stronger than an upvote. Depression -> distraction-seeking -> FB wall would be the link for me too.
I want to chime in and also show my agreement with that statement. I've observed from my own deppressive behaviour that Facebook is just one of many go-to things. For instance, when I found an interesting show I haven't watched, I wouldn't even think of browsing Facebook (or HN) - I'd shift between my job and watching the series.
I've "struggled" with depression most of my life. I say that in quotes, because for a long time I didn't realize that was the case, I just thought I was an asshole.
Some years ago I had a Facebook account. I finally had to close it, because it made me feel bad. Not because I didn't measure up to other peoples' lives, like in the article, but because the parts I saw were so vacuous.
Note, I'm not at all disagreeing with FB as a way to improve your depression, or with the value people find in FB generally. Just we're all different.
Also, to anyone struggling with depression (even if you don't realize it), I recently got help with depression explicitly, and on purpose, and it's improved my life immensely. If life sucks and you can't quite see why, talk to a professional and explore your options. Because even when you have problems and obstacles (which I do), life is great when it doesn't suck.
It's more likely than not the other way around (depression causes Facebook use). Clinical depression starts from within, and is usually independent of one's circumstances (wealthy people with good families are often depressed too). Depressed people have a need to rationalize their feelings. "My life isn't as good as others" is a common rationalization for depression, and a service that lets them view the highlight reels of a billion other people whose lives appear to be better than theirs is the ultimate tool for it.
Am married to someone who is by any reasonable definition addicted to Facebook, and this reinforces what my gut has been telling me for some time.
Part of the practical problem seems to be the compulsion to read everything that's on your feed; I myself have felt the siren call of this, but it becomes easier to break once you realise that you are not seeing everything from all of your 'friends' anyway, it's all algorithmically curated and filtered.
I'm in the same boat, to the point where she asked me to password restrict her being able to install the facebook app. She'll still access it through the web interface, she says to make it more difficult to access.
She's the introverted type, socially anxious, and I can understand the draw of being able to look into others lives without having to actually interact with them. The problem, then, is just as the study describes. Face to face conversations give a better glimpse on what's really going on personally, the good and the bad, while the newsfeed is a stream of bragging or things to be judgmental about.
Top news is the feature of facebook I appreciate most. I would go crazy if I were only inundated with the stream of menial crap you see in real time. Facebook learns who I actually interact with and knows my family members, and shows me the "upvoted" stories so that when I get on facebook once daily for 3-5 mins, I'm caught up.
hahahahaha this is exactly one of the reason why Twitter was getting populated. You can just twit or comment on things , and barely show off your own life, or making less comparison with others (well expect competing for gaining more followers). LOL
It's not just the highlights reel, but rather the aggregate. So for example if you have say 52 friends (52 weeks in a year to put emphasis on the point) then the odds are that on any given week someone is on a trip. In other words it looks like all your friends are travelling all the time but it's not true, it just feels that way.
Now if you increase your friends to 100, 200, 500, or more than this perception is even worse!! You'll be seeing multiple friends travelling each week. And on the holidays it will be even worse. However individually each friend is about the same on average.
To make things even more skewed you will probably have a few friends that will indeed have a better highlight reel, and possibly a better life, so of course you'll compare yourself to them more than your average friends cause that's how humans work. And God forbid one is a prolific facebook poster!
Also another thing to remember is that the more a post is liked the more feeds it showed up in. In other words really cool news will appear in a lot more feeds and negative news dies fast. This further skews our perceptions of how great things are.
The key is that comparing in facebook is a bad thing. The data is all skewed and not really comparable, but we still do it because it's in our nature. The best advice is to try and appreciate and remember this and as a result avoid those kinds of comparisons. Well that and like everything else such as TV, etc., limit your time to something reasonable. Oh and if you have friends that are really just acquaintances that fall into these categories then don't be afraid to hide their feeds ;)
I can definitely say I see more acute distress about things that happen on Facebook than I see on any other site. It seems someone I know is upset about some interaction they had with somebody every few days.
I just want to know how many (hopefully not any?) additional suicides occurred with the experiment Facebook did with their unethical research to either show more positive or more negative posts in people's newsfeeds; I can't remember the specific experiment but that is the gist of it.
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[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 160 ms ] threadPersonally, I have many connections exclusively only on FB - I don't have their emails, phone numbers, etc - that I remain on FB only to be able to message them.
I wish I could automatically message them and easily collect their email/phone #s with minimal effort...probably a way but I haven't looked into it.
Have you considered asking for their email address? Could send them a private message on Facebook saying you're considering leaving Facebook but would still like to keep in touch. I imagine most people would be fine with sharing their email address if they've already linked up with you on Facebook.
Then I tell myself that they probably haven't saved as many lives as I have.
Then I have to tell myself that this doesn't pay the bills, dammit.
HN/slashdot/FB in moderation, kids! Now you know and knowing is half the battle.
But yeah, I know that feeling.
https://medium.com/matter/the-shut-in-economy-ec3ec1294816
I suspect these people your age making a lot more money lead lives similar to what's described in this article. These do not seem like happy lives to me!
If you're actively saving lives, that is more valuable than all the money in the world, and I thank you.
Also a lot of people just haven't found something that they truly love doing.
There's plenty of rich miserable people, and plenty of miserable poor people. If you have very little, you've got very little to worry about...
An attractive statement but totally wrong.
If you have very little - if you are poor, you have to worry about renting a roof for yourself, and food to eat, and clean-enough water, and having enough warmth, and healthcare, and then all of those things for each member of your family.
Every second of every day.
So much that you cannot manage anything else.
That contributes towards depression, sure.
Find something you truly love doing? This is usually something that rich people have the capacity and opportunity to do.
In my case I don't care that person X has more money than I do, since as long as I have enough for basic living money itself isn't something which I care deeply about.
I don't care too much about money. For me it's been more difficult to cope with the fact that there are so many people who are far more clever than I am. What's one's purpose if so many people can do it better?
(Before I sound too depressed: I am a happy person, I have come to appreciate that enjoying the craft you do is the most important thing. After family and friends.)
Regardless, I think that there is a large qualitative difference between e.g. Hackernews and Facebook. On Facebook people brag about their fortune (or bad luck), on Hackernews there are many genuinely interesting technical discussions where one can learn a lot.
Sometimes I wonder, though, what's the purpose of associating oneself with advances in the world? If you knew other people could do it better, would you still want your solution to win? I guess the answer is that we don't know other solutions are definitely better, when everyone is developing theirs, and betteris a relative term.
Perhaps it's more interesting to think in terms of Alan Watts' philosophy of growing and competing. Things just happen and there is no "ceramic theory" of good ideas.
One advice I hear often is: if you're not the quickest, just don't try to race anyone else for solving a problem (there are many people you could legitimately call 'genius' working on certain problems!). Work on things you know no one else is working with -- if you fail, it's only because the results aren't very useful (but for most things it's really hard to tell when they'll be useful anyway). I call this "work orthogonalization".
And there's my favorite, and probably most often said: be guided by beauty. If you feel what you're solving is "just right", it most likely will work and will work well.
Common sense stuff, so it has exceptions of course. Engineering for instance has a whole extra layer where we have to deal with physics, resource constraints and follow more closely the needs and demands of our users.
I have heard that too. I was talking with a noted probabilist, who co-authored a well-regarded book, about some work that Michel Talagrand (a very accomplished mathematician) was starting to publish.
He said, "just have to get out of the way," and when I gave a quizzical look, continued, "That guy is a bulldozer." Basically, you might sweat for a year and end up being a special case of a more general result that Talagrand just proved.
Thurston's essay is another consideration of this question (http://www.ams.org/journals/bull/1994-30-02/S0273-0979-1994-...).
Who said man's purpose is to "do" things?
Life's purpose is to just be here, have fun, be kind to others, and read a good book from time to time. And raise some kids if you want to see humanity continue onwards.
Anything else is like saying that all these people who did just that and didn't cure cancer or sold their startup for 10B are not worthy humans.
Indeed. But personally, I'm aware that we don't have a self-sustaining system that would allow everyone to do just that - hence I find meaning in helping to enable that (and as a corollary, I find work (as in, jobs) that don't serve to further or maintain this goal meaningless and depressing).
Indeed... This reminds me of a dialogue in Iain Banks' Use of Weapons, between a stranger and a woman from the Culture, a society technologically advanced to the point that machines do everything better than the humans:
I think it's a great answer to the question of why do things, but it doesn't address the problem of one's purpose...But yes, I always manually add the line breaks when quoting text. It's annoying and it would be nice if there were a real quote feature.
It might be a good feature, yes.
Locality! Your neighbors need your help!
Still, same thing, locality is important. I wish it was stressed more often in this increasingly globalized world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGWDw9ZGXEk
It's an inspirational perspective, thank you for the recommendation.
A side note:I'm reading Jacob Soll's history of accounting "The Reckoning" & renaissance Florence (+Venice) figures big there as well.
It says something about human nature that perhaps we need to fix, rather than just suppressing the symptoms by avoiding things like facebook.
I'm certainly not getting depressed from this - but I find this trend fairly annoying as well. There is fairly dominant sub-community on HN who try to communicate as often as possible how extremely smart they are and humblebrag about some start-up or how they declined an offer from Google.
But I think this sub-population is actually minority. The majority of HN readers is just curious about the subjects itself - those contribute the highest value on here in my experience.
My issue with something like HN isn't that other people are making money, are smarter or doing cool projects. My issue is that so many people are doing stupid things (in my mind), and making a ton of money from VC funding.
Someone who can create and make a living of product or service that's useful to others is wonderful. If you can't get by without funding and you don't seem to have a viable business plan, that's really infuriating. I don't think it's okay to just burn other people money until a business plan materialises. We wouldn't have Twitter, Facebook and a ton of other companies, I understand that, but I'm also okay with it.
Why does that have anything to do with you, or, more specifically, any impact on your own subjective sense of well-being?
Couldn't it just be that, uh, Facebook is kinda boring? Or, as the article mentions, that "depressed feelings and lots of time on Facebook [...] go hand in hand," in other words, lonely/isolated people habitually look for connection on social media, but the kinds of communication that happen there are not very interesting or loneliness-assuaging.
David Foster Wallace's 1993 essay "E Unibus Pluram" describes a similar tendency but with television as the substituting technology:
"Every lonely human I know watches way more than the average U.S. six hours a day. The lonely, like the fictional, love one-way watching. For lonely people are usually lonely not because of hideous deformity or odor or obnoxiousness—in fact there exist today social and support groups for persons with precisely these features. Lonely people tend rather to be lonely because they decline to bear the emotional costs associated with being around other humans. They are allergic to people. People affect them too strongly. Let's call the average U.S. lonely person Joe Briefcase. Joe Briefcase just loathes the strain of the self-consciousness which so oddly seems to appear only when other real human beings are around, staring, their human sense-antennae abristle. Joe B. fears how he might appear to watchers. He sits out the stressful U.S. game of appearance poker.
"But lonely people, home, alone, still crave sights and scenes. Hence television. Joe can stare at Them, on the screen; They remain blind to Joe. It's almost like voyeurism."
That's called social anxiety, just FYI.
And yeah, it's plausible that people which have social anxiety are more prone to overusing social media etc.
It's pretty explicit that they're not claiming causality.
It's tough, but what actually works for me now, is giving other people the respect and privacy they need, by not thinking about how they think. You'd be surprised how much extra thinking time you have for everything else just by cutting your thoughts off at that line.
Still, there are no rules yet for empathy, and my mind can still get panicky in crowds, and there is the belief that I will be perpetually socially naive and subject to social manipulation. But I think it's better than hiding in the corner of a room, staring at the floor, maybe.
I do not really like social media. I like interesting conversations that stimulate me intellectually.
What works is to pick a path, any path, and look in the direction of that path. That is a sufficient signal for all parties to self-organize and avoid collision, even at high speeds and density of people. In other words, leading lowers the cost of following.
Even if one could mind-read, one may not like what one perceives. But humans are adaptable and can often reciprocate. If one's actions assume/imply positive intent, one can motivate positive reciprocity and reduce/avoid the cost of perceiving intent.
I like my desk and being socially awkward.
Unhealthy levels of facebook use, particularly apparent addiction to those annoying invite games are pretty obviously not the behavior of a happy person. When ever I get a slew of invites to Candy Crush or similar, it's always from someone a bit tragic.
I mean, who else has the time to sit at home playing Facebook games, but the lack of motivation to go and do something more worthwhile?
> I mean, who else has the time to sit at home playing Facebook games, but the lack of motivation to go and do something more worthwhile?
Is a bit more complicated. On a broader perspective, this pattern usage of Facebook is entertainment exactly like watching TV is (you even get the ads!).
Considering that, based on the first statistic I've found on Google [0], the average American spends hours every day in front of a TV (even if not 5, 3/4 would be alarming), then there is a social problem, more than an individual one.
Equally, I'll often put easy-watching TV on when I'm at home but doing something else - working on my laptop, text-chatting to friends on Skype/WhatsApp, browsing sites like Hacker News. Again, this would raise my average, but it's not quite the same as going "what am I doing tonight? Watching the TV and nothing else" if the TV is getting a small fraction of my attention.
I just wonder to what extent this sort of half-watching increases averages, or on the flip side to what extent high-sounding averages are genuinely worrying.
I find it nearly impossible to find a percentile graph of something like hours viewed along Y-axis and percentile population along the X. An excellent startup idea would be the very hard task of a search engine that can find graphs of a given X vs Y.
Anyway, based on what little I can find, TV watching is absolutely not a bell curve as "young people" average only 2 or so hours per day and the elderly average over a working day per day (in excess of 8 hours per day of TV over 60 years old).
My strong suspicion is TV viewership is strongly exponential vs percentile with "people in trouble" (medical problems, hospital patients, severely handicapped, addicts, prisoners) recording 24 hours/day or at least all 18 or so waking hours as viewing time, vs the majority the population in a declining exponential graph dropping to almost zero.
Given a population distribution like that, an average is fairly meaningless when trying to draw cultural conclusions. Its like using average income or average wealth to draw economic conclusions. Or doing ergonomic design based on the average number of heads being well above one (think of Siamese twins). What cultural conclusions can you make about my typical normal lifestyle based on the average number of space qualified astronauts in my country?
It is not a completely useless statistic, if the average TV draws a kilowatt then given a billion random people the electrical load due to TVs would be about 5 billion kilowatt-hours per day (5 TWh?). But the usefulness of the numbers break down when zoomed in.
Online conversations have continued offline. Those were actual people I was talking to. Those conversations resume online, often enough. It's part of the fabric.
An invitation to an actual event with actual people received on facebook, because of activity or exposure there, is not fruitless activity.
But it is usually a bored, nervous activity. I can handily agree to that part.
More seriously, depression is linked to compulsive purchases.
Now I'm not saying that they're intentionally adopting features and styles that depress their users, but should they stumble into one by chance fixing will hurt revenues. What outcome should we expect?
Fear powerful optimization processes. Harm to mankind from inhuman intelligences doesn't require fancy AI: in the halls of the corporate Chinese room surprising behavior can arise just as well from complexity systems which are ultimately made of meat.
I think in the case of Facebook it's that you are the product, more specifically: your emotions are the product. You get other stereotypes but by-and-large the most well known stereotype on Facebook is someone who shares all their emotions. Facebook even encourages it: now in a relationship, married, divorced, broke up, etc. Relationships aren't "official" until they are "Facebook official."
Your emotional drama is what shows up on your friends' feeds (as does theirs on yours). Your drama is why your friends show up to read Facebook. Whether or not they click the 'like' button determines how you feel and deal with your emotions.
When you are looking for approval for your emotions you are never dealing with your emotions. When you are never dealing with your emotions you are depressed.
Do you have by any chance a source/study for that? Would love to read up on that issue a bit more.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/%28SICI%291520-67...
When I'm depressed and completely out of energy , I try and find something low effort just to shut out the negativity.
Most of the time that's scrolling through the newsfeed or aimlessly browsing porn. If Facebook didn't exist I might find something else. Facebook is the goto place to zone yourself out.
It's only a problem when life is so barren that likes on your FB post become the highlight of your day. As long as you have healthy relationships and meaningful activities it will never become a problem.
Through years of A/B testing they've trained us like rats to scroll through the newsfeed. Sometimes I'll find myself or someone else simply scrolling aimlessly , not even knowing why , just a tired brain looking for the next dopamine hit. Finally, I installed an extension that removes the newsfeed on my work computer and there's already a big improvement. I never thought such a stupid hack could make a difference , since I could always override it.
But turns out that your brain is lazy and stupid , which you can use to your advantage by making wasteful activities just a wee bit more difficult. Making new habits is easiest when you rearrange your environment.
Want to become fit. Try moving into an apartment with a cross fit freak and watch yourself change automatically.
Want to become a better developer. Get a better job on a team that uses best practices and watch yourself strive to keep up.
Ofcourse , out of all of this self improvement thinking comes the sort of existential angst that is caused by browsing FB,HN and Reddit and seeing how your life is just 1 % of what it could be and what your friends are having. This I think is separate and isn't restricted to Facebook. This has always and will continue to exist.
So yeah sometimes you just can't win :D .
These days everytime I feel depressed I have some chocolate. And also go for a vigorous walk. It sort of works but not nearly as well as it should ;) .
If someone subjectively perceives this statement to be true about her/his life - then s/he is not suffering from depression - pretty much by definition.
> The problem might not even /have/ a solution. But you aren't necessarily looking for solutions. You're maybe just looking for someone to say "sorry about how dead your fish are" or "wow, those are super dead. I still like you, though."
I wonder if in the past society used to be more accepting of personality differences. Nowadays everyone makes a point of being so tolerant and accomodating but it's all based on the extraverted always-on always-happy norm. Anything else is fine so long as you acknowledge it's a disorder or a condition; otherwise ostracism. Feels like when I read about olden times there's more "oh, that's just how Fred is" but Fred's also an accepted part of the community.
Some years ago I had a Facebook account. I finally had to close it, because it made me feel bad. Not because I didn't measure up to other peoples' lives, like in the article, but because the parts I saw were so vacuous.
Note, I'm not at all disagreeing with FB as a way to improve your depression, or with the value people find in FB generally. Just we're all different.
Also, to anyone struggling with depression (even if you don't realize it), I recently got help with depression explicitly, and on purpose, and it's improved my life immensely. If life sucks and you can't quite see why, talk to a professional and explore your options. Because even when you have problems and obstacles (which I do), life is great when it doesn't suck.
You go to Facebook to self-medicate your depression, but Facebook contributes towards your depression.
It's the same with alcohol - to which I compare this situation.
People with depression think that alcohol helps because it gives them a fast dopamine hit, but alcohol is a potent depressant.
Part of the practical problem seems to be the compulsion to read everything that's on your feed; I myself have felt the siren call of this, but it becomes easier to break once you realise that you are not seeing everything from all of your 'friends' anyway, it's all algorithmically curated and filtered.
She's the introverted type, socially anxious, and I can understand the draw of being able to look into others lives without having to actually interact with them. The problem, then, is just as the study describes. Face to face conversations give a better glimpse on what's really going on personally, the good and the bad, while the newsfeed is a stream of bragging or things to be judgmental about.
Top news is the feature of facebook I appreciate most. I would go crazy if I were only inundated with the stream of menial crap you see in real time. Facebook learns who I actually interact with and knows my family members, and shows me the "upvoted" stories so that when I get on facebook once daily for 3-5 mins, I'm caught up.
Now if you increase your friends to 100, 200, 500, or more than this perception is even worse!! You'll be seeing multiple friends travelling each week. And on the holidays it will be even worse. However individually each friend is about the same on average.
To make things even more skewed you will probably have a few friends that will indeed have a better highlight reel, and possibly a better life, so of course you'll compare yourself to them more than your average friends cause that's how humans work. And God forbid one is a prolific facebook poster!
Also another thing to remember is that the more a post is liked the more feeds it showed up in. In other words really cool news will appear in a lot more feeds and negative news dies fast. This further skews our perceptions of how great things are.
The key is that comparing in facebook is a bad thing. The data is all skewed and not really comparable, but we still do it because it's in our nature. The best advice is to try and appreciate and remember this and as a result avoid those kinds of comparisons. Well that and like everything else such as TV, etc., limit your time to something reasonable. Oh and if you have friends that are really just acquaintances that fall into these categories then don't be afraid to hide their feeds ;)