Got to agree with this - stop patronising people with so-called "positive discrimination" and all the horrible PC bullshit.
Give those who want to learn a helping hand, sure, but not some over the top tech minority outreach program that then pisses all over the very people you are claiming to try and help in the first place.
You'd like to toss out all of the women-focused (and I'd guess minority-focused in general) programs, but I'd be curious how much the people for whom those events/groups are intended generally feel.
I think it's safe to say they sprung up in response to a market need--they didn't just come out of nowhere, for no point, and suddenly gain a lot of traction (because nothing does)--so how well do they work overall?
I, unlike you, am not interested in dismissing them all, because I have seen lots of times how young white dudes get to run the show, and end up dismissing everyone who doesn't look like them, regardless of so-called merit.
So I wonder...how much was this one an isolated "done wrong" event?
>I think it's safe to say they sprung up in response to a market need
The politics of shaming and diversity guidelines are not market factors. This is like saying that the market wants us to have brainless middle managers. These things are all market inefficiencies that we should strive to eliminate or minimize.
I can't imagine tech pioneers from the 80s and 90s being under scrutiny like groups today are. Would we have Linux if Linus worried that his largely white male contributors weren't diverse enough? Would we have Apple is Jobs felt like he needed to "white knight" the women at his company?
Whoa! I didn't realize that market forces now excluded stuff that you obviously don't like.
If the market didn't want us to have "brainless middle managers," as you'd apparently characterize a wide swath of our colleagues, then those people would already have been efficiency'd out.
Just like, if people who don't look like you weren't lining up to be involved in hackathons and groups that consist of people who don't look like you, those events wouldn't exist.
People pay for it, whether you like it or approve of it or not. Behold, the market works!
> The politics of shaming and diversity guidelines are not market factors.
Of course they are! Just like the politics of discrimination and dehumanization were market factors in previous eras. To pretend otherwise is to take a very narrow view of the market that ignores the full range of human interactions. Indeed, trends in industries such as fashion, music, film, and gaming are almost entirely driven by what ideas are popular at a given time and not by some objective utility function of the product.
> I'd be curious how much the people for whom those events/groups are intended generally feel.
I don't know about you, but I'm not at all interested in how the intended audience feels. I'm strongly interested in how their behaviors change with these programs.
Programs that make people feel good but don't change behavior (i.e., don't get more women into tech) are not of value.
There are two issues: 1) What is the nature of hackathons? Many are pitchathons. 2) Think about people's incentives. There's a tech climate, constantly perpetuated in media and many people's conversations, where women are under attack in technology. If you you don't show you care as a man, if you don't bend over backwards to make sure everyone feels extra welcome, you might be branded sexist. I think people are tired or being attacked, and wanted to encourage some people new to programming.
>Do you have evidence for someone being branded sexist for merely not bending over backwards to prove that they aren't?
Maybe not a specific person or event, but would the constant demand for "diversity reports" from tech companies from the "tech media" not be an example of this? And the subsequent shaming by the same media of these same companies for having too many penises in the office, or too few vaginas?
I apologise for the vulgarity of the above, but that's what it is when it comes down to it.
And people say that women are too sensitive and just need to grow a thicker skin. You realize that there is a difference between saying there is a sexism problem and saying that everyone is a sexist, right?
I'm with you on Dr.Taylor and the PyCon guy, but IMO, Brad Wardell is clearly an example of someone who created a hostile work environment for women, even if he doesn't fit the dictionary definition of sexist. The sexual harassment lawsuit and his counter-suit were both settled out of court, but reading the e-mail exchanges between himself and his employee shows that Wardell was nothing short of a creep.
I've seen conferences called out for having too few female speakers. They made talk choices based only on abstracts, not on speakers, and ended up with a higher percentage of female speakers than had submitted. When they informed the person who called them out, they were then effectively told they weren't doing enough, and directed to a web page that told them they need to do more to encourage female submitters, such as doing the things they were already doing. This occurred over Twitter, and I'm not going to dig up looking for it (it happened about a year ago).
I realize it's not exactly what you asked for, but it was a clear case of "guilty until proven innocent."
I really enjoyed the beginning of the piece. We're all losers. Recently someone asked me how I did math and I replied that I failed repeatedly until a few times I didn't. Still true. Also true of coding, although google is much more helpful.
The second half of the piece just didn't seem that compelling, though. What if the pdfs were inspirational? Maybe they were about saving baby seals or something. And novice guys get passes on all sorts of stuff too. So once some girls got a prize that seems fake to someone who worked hard. Also, coding schools promise to make people ninja rockstars in six weeks, because they want to sell spots and people want to believe it.
Maybe the piece is upvoted because people resonate with that feeling of being mad that someone "undeserving" got a prize. I don't see that as a useful feeling to cultivate.
Different people may have different reasons for going to hackathons. For some, it may be to practise their skills at solving more technical problems and for others it may be simply to validate an idea, for which a wix side and a PDF are perfectly reasonable MVPs.
It's a great thing idea to set aside categories to encourage participation for novice / beginners to hackathons. We all have to start somewhere, perhaps the author forgot that she herself was in a similar situation just a few months ago.
Well how about that, a realistic look at what pandering mess subsets of our industry and programming culture have become. My least favorite part was the little bit at the end, apologizing to the organizers of the hackathon. Don't apologize, they're just some pandering asshats being superficially progressive, because hey, someone without a dick and pale skin participated!
And thank fuck someone touched on those "Pay us $30,000 and become a 1337 h4x0r camps. I don't know if we're in a bubble, but if it were to burst, there's gonna be some surprised folks getting culled. If you attended one of camps, you better not stop clawing your way to the top. You better keep clawing util your fingers are bloody, nail-less nubs. You attended a Ruby camp? That's sweet, but you're applying to a Java shop, and you cannot "fake it till you make it" with your cargo-cult practices. You can't even begin to describe what an interface is, but hey, that $70k/year job is calling your name, isn't it?
Hell, maybe I'm just bitter and jaded at the ripe old age of 21 after doing this professionally for 4 years, or that I've been attending the prestigious LMGTFY University since I was about 9. Or maybe I'm a little brain damaged after my copy of Sedgewick dropped of the bookshelf and onto my head. Maybe those early, informative years spent cutting my teeth on assembly have done some irreparable damaged to my psyche. Stop pandering, lend a hand, lend encouragement to the folks who need it. Everyone had helped along but way, and I spend way too much time tutoring folks, but stop pushing folks into the industry who are chasing the almighty dollar or just aren't interested. Help them get their feet wet, but if they don't like it, don't force them off the diving board. I'm gonna be maintaining their cruft long after they're gone.
Looks like the winning team hacked the hackathon by finding a solution to the problem of "how to win a hackathon" in a clever way. I say well played. If the judges accepted this PDF entry, and it was within the rules, then it's very bad sportsmanship for the other contestants to say they didn't deserve a prize. The fact they didn't write any code makes absolutely no difference at all. Hackathons are about finding solutions to problems, not writing code.
It doesn't look like they found or exploited any solution but rather the judges were determined to let them win regardless of the quality of their entry.
The author writes: "After deliberating, the judges announced a new “Most Inspirational” category" but this category is not new. The author seems to have misinterpreted the course of events. Based on clicking the blog's twitter link, this is the hackathon attended by the author:
I think the timeline is correct and the article is about 2015. The Most Inspirational of the 2015 event, which was held April 11, 4 days ago, involved a Wix website. Neither of the other years appear to.
Yeah, I realized that... decided to edit the comment with that info (rather than delete) in case someone else was gonna make the same wrong assumption as me.
As a woman engineer I understand what the OP is trying to say, but it sounds callous and (surprisingly) oblivious to the realities of this field.
As someone else pointed out: "1) What is the nature of hackathons? Many are pitchathons."
I have also lost "hackathons" to projects that were objectively NOT technical (mocked-up images of an app, without a single line of code). It happens often, and it's always a bummer to lose, but often they might actually be solving a bigger issue than me or my team.
For the group of women (girls?) that won - as you pointed out - maybe they will continue doing hackathons (and maybe - despite your doubt - they even eventually progressing beyond the Wix stage) because they won an encouragement award at their first hackathon. It's like a consolation prize for mustering up the courage to present their product that was obviously not as technically advanced as some other products. That takes guts, a lot of people (men/women/other...) might just slink out the back door after the first few presentations.
So good for them, in that sense - they indeed are an inspiration for people just starting out.
Yeah, one of the huge problems our field has is that it doesn't give people a solid sense of how you upgrade your skills and what kind of waypoint you're at relative to others (and that that's okay!).
It is magnificent to encourage newcomers to the field. We should also have level playing fields for folks to participate with everyone (and not stratify further than we already do). But it sucks when these sorts of objectives collide and end up alienating people. (and heck sports have awards for rookies for example!)
The other thing that's really gear-grinding about OP is that... we're judging our worth based on what happens in hackathons? I hope to $deity most people aren't doing that, because hackathons are super slanted POVs on the world.
Actually no, in most professional leagues the rookie of the year/season award is handed out to the best rookie whether that rookie performed below, above, or at the same level as their more experienced peers. They are graded only against other rookies.
Agreed. The tech community is rabidly hypercritical and even those considered part of the "typical" programmer demographic are often met with biting vitriol when publishing code or projects that the community views as bad, poor form, too ambitious or reinventing the wheel. That type of hostility will really intimidate novices, especially if they already feel like an outsider. I think it's a positive step to encourage the less represented demographics because it says "we see you, and there is a place for you, even if you're just taking baby steps"
This article is problematic. It's common knowledge that women need special handholding and encouragement to succeed at software development as well as a shield wall of allies to fend off constant microaggressions, so we have to ask, in the most nonjudgmental way possible, why the author is so obviously acting against her own interests.
Your assertion that women "need special handholding and encouragement to succeed at software development" is insulting and distasteful.
My mother and grandmother were both software engineers at IBM, at a time where the male dominated tech culture was MUCH worse than it is today, and they both did really well. My boss, a woman, is arguably the best software engineer at our company.
Women don't need handholding. They need incentive. They need to be exposed to tech culture. Lowering the bar for women and putting them on a pedestal for showing up does a great injustice to women like my mother and grandmother who, despite working in a culture which heavily discriminated against women, became kick-ass engineers.
> Your assertion that women "need special handholding and encouragement to succeed at software development" is insulting and distasteful.
Please, please for the love of root do not use rhetoric like this. It's hollow posturing that offers nothing beyond scolding someone for the sin of not agreeing with you.
Being insulting is not the same as being wrong. Being distasteful is not the same as being wrong. Only one thing is the same as being wrong, and that's being wrong. I know this is an insulting, disrespectful, and distasteful thing to say... but being offended does not make you right.
So I have a question for you: why did you write the first line of your comment?
Unfortunately, this is the kind of thing we can expect a lot more of in the coming months and perhaps years as the "tech media" continue to attack it from the fringes.
You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. There is no satiating the thirst from the "tech media" for faux outrage driven clicks.
This is a woman in tech, but more specifically she is a techie in tech. She has been assimilated into the normality of the modern tech industry and is participating in a highly competitive, skill driven arena.
Make no mistake, any company that does not behave as the organisers of this hackathon here - not actively displaying an organised, certainly biased, effort to promote the "Women in Tech" narrative - are open to being squatted on from above from the "moral highground" occupied by the tech media.
This is what happens when you attack meritocracy in the name of making people feel good. It is what happens when you create an unrelenting narrative that continually assaults an industry over how many or few people with a penis or vagina they have in it. It is what happens when you've an industry surrounded by "journalists" who've never spent an actual day in it, ready to fire out articles shaming you for your lack of, or apparent abundance of, penises or vaginas in your company.
The author here is simply another bystander to the continued assault on the technology industry.
The media loves gender-related news because they are so divisive. They provoke our emotions and pull us into wasteful and hateful arguments. Such news are almost always the most read ones - the most profitable ones.
So where does the obvious gender bias in the industry come from? It's actually gotten worse since the 1980s, not better. There are only two explanations for the obvious reality. One is that women simply aren't as good at programming as men are. The other is that there is a persistent and difficult cultural bias against women in this industry.
Most of us would agree that it's the latter. So the question is, what do we do about it? Whinging about how terrible it is that we are even talking about this isn't it - that's just wrapping bias in silence. Any good engineer can tell you that a problem doesn't go away just because you stop acknowledging it.
The author makes an excellent point... that "Thanks for showing up" awards aren't a solution, either. We love our craft because it's hard, because it measures us against hard reality rather than the soft vagaries of social politics. We cannot bring gender equality into software engineering by trying to turn it into social rather than technical victories.
But complaining about the "assault on the technology industry" in the form of pointing out that we have a sexism problem? That's not good engineering, bro.
More men may work in tech because on average men are more interested in the subject.
The key word in the preceding sentence is "may." "Bias" is complex and hard to prove and in the case of the tech industry there may be bias or there may not be. Even the phrase "tech industry" is odd. Does that include academic scientists? Where does tech end and other industries start? See also e.g. http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science.
The WP article dances around a problem... that the reason there are fewer women in STEM is because they avoid it from childhood. Which begs the genetics vs socialization question. Are women not as good, or are they discouraged at an early age?
A lack of good candidates is a serious problem (this even more obvious racially than by gender - where are the black and latino engineers?). But the way women are treated relative to their male peers is a massive problem within software, as opposed to the broader STEM fields. Don't believe me? Sit down and have a heart-to-heart talk with experienced female software engineers about it sometime. Ask them what sexism they've experienced at work, how it's hampered their careers and their job satisfaction.
It just means one of my explanations is far deeper than it looks on the surface - that the discrimination and discouragement against women in engineering starts at childhood.
Remark: There are two possible interpretations of "a persistent and difficult cultural bias against women in this industry". One is that this industry is culturally biased against women. The other is that there exists a cultural bias, possibly outside this industry, against women-in-this-industry.
I don't think you'd say that the first one doesn't exist, and when you say discrimination starts at childhood, that sounds a lot like the second.
One needs to be careful not to equivocate between the two, because they're different problems that have different causes and different solutions that need to be implemented by different people.
When you describe the two of them together, as a single possible cause, you seem to be making this mistake.
Yes, my initial phrasing was problematic. But the intent of the initial phrasing wasn't to blame IT culture for the problem, but rather to get people to consciously reject female inferiority as the cause of the problem.
> Just a tip - "begs the question" refers to form of logical fallacy where one forms a conclusion that lacks support.
Just a tip: the use of "begs the question" to which you refer is always intransitive. The transitive use, as by the poster you responded to, is distinct, and unambiguously a different use than the intransitive use. AFAICT, its inspired by the transitive use, which is an odd (from the point of view of the meanings of the individual words in modern English) translation of a Latin phrase into English, and -- unlike the intransitive use -- actually uses the individual words in something like their usual definitions. It also provides a convenient rationalization of the older intransitive use as a specialization of the transitive use where the question for which an answer is demanded is that of the support for the premise under discussion, so that the transitive use turns the intransitive use from an idiom that is detached from the meanings of the words in the language outside of the idiom to one connected to it in a clear way.
Accepting the transitive use, which is widely established and whose meaning is immediately clear to anyone who encounters it and which is completely unambiguously differentiated from the intransitive use, does nothing but make life better for everyone.
Opposing it isn't merely pedantry, its pedantry that ignores clear grammatical distinctions and seeks to find confusion where there is none to be found.
Here is how to test if women are discouraged: compare the fraction of autodidactes between men and women.
Being an autodidact is a way to satisfy an interest quietly and to avoid pressure, in contrast to classes. So if outside pressure hinders participation, it should hinder it less among autodidacts than it does among others. Thus, (# female autodidact coders) / (# female coders) should be higher than (# of male autodidact coders) / (# male coders).
As an example, to learn more than broken Hindi I'll take a class because there is no social pressure against it. But if I want to learn about pickup artistry (which social pressure opposes), I'm going to do it on the internet. (Both examples chosen to be subjects best learned in person.)
Anyone have data on this?
But the way women are treated relative to their male peers is a massive problem within software, as opposed to the broader STEM fields.
This is weak evidence against female treatment being the cause of underrepresentation. Math-heavy STEM fields (physics, math, electrical engineering) also have very few women.
When most of the industry hires based on the social proof of the candidate having been being hired by other companies, and doesn't have any interest whatsoever in investing in training, you have a feedback system which would amplify even small biases - if the biases were small, which they're not. If you start out any kind of poor, you are statistically fucked. You have a brutally vicious survival function which shuts people out starting before their first possible job, and then continues to shut them out - it's only so many applications you can file before you have to fall back to landscaping or catering or spring for a degree in accounting or some other industry that is not buried so far up its own ass (does every employer who needs an accountant demand a top 1% A player 10x accountant, or do they just hire a fucking licensed accountant sometimes?)
Where are the _____ engineers? As a rule, they're in the huge fucking pile of resumes in the garbage. But that answer is too simple and obvious, it makes the situation too clear. Instead, it has to be a big mystery about how it just magically happens that there isn't a black face in the office even though we are all, of course, very enlightened and not racist here on HN, and all of us are doing our very best, so sorry if you don't have enough experience for any job or are not a cultural fit anywhere.
On the other side of this, according to the NMC[0] only 10.69% of Nurses in 2008 were men (UK). I've personally never seen anyone highlight this as a diversity issue. This is just a guess but I'd say men in general aren't as interested in nursing as women, or just don't consider it when deciding what to do with their careers.
I think specific instances of sexism or discrimination should be stamped out, but I don't think we should be "helping" anyone to a specific career - I'd rather credit everyone with a little intelligence and assume if they want to be a nurse or work in tech, then they will strive to do so without the artificial leg-up.
> On the other side of this, according to the NMC[0] only 10.69% of Nurses in 2008 were men (UK). I've personally never seen anyone highlight this as a diversity issue
Yes, this always comes up in these discussions, and as is always pointed out, you haven't heard of it because you aren't in that industry and you haven't done even a cursory google search of the topic.
Seriously, there are a ton of efforts to bring better diversity to the nursing field.
>One is that women simply aren't as good at programming as men are. The other is that there is a persistent and difficult cultural bias against women in this industry.
What about option three: They've less of an interest in the area.
When these topics come up there seems to be this weird suspension of the fact that men and women, or girls and boys, are different in many ways. They've different interests, they're driven differently, they've different skills, etc.
They're not perfectly aligned bell curves across the board. We also don't need them to be. We don't need men and women to be identical save for what is between their legs in terms of their interests, or how they perform, or their desires, or whatever else.
We simply need to make the same opportunities available to everyone regardless of what is between their legs. If a man wants to become a nurse, he should have the opportunity to and he does. If a woman wants to become a programmer, she should have the same opportunity and graduate employment rates would show that they do.
Women dominate many professions. Men dominate many professions. As a society we don't need to have an equal number of penises and vaginas present in all professions.
Leave the opportunities open and let people develop their own interests.
I know you probably think you're being a skeptical and intelligent speaker of uncomfortable truths. But you're a lot more like a climate change denier. You're going with your gut and not the facts.
This graph says it all, I think. Is it really conceivable that women were more interested in computing when it was all about hand-coding assembly for a modest amount of money, and less interested now that you can make >$100K/year doing Rails from home?
There's tons of evidence that women are excluded from our industry, at every level -- high school, university, and even the ones that graduate and go on to work in the industry drop out at a very high rate. Other scientific or mathematical fields do not have the same problem.
You will probably now try to bury me with various quibbles, because you can argue against any statistic. but maybe you could try ASKING A WOMAN.
Anecdotally, I know many women who have since found coding later in life. I've heard several times that they wandered into some science or computer club early on and had horrible experiences and left. They're coming into it now, mostly due to the high demand for engineers such that the industry is (reluctantly) hiring people who don't have the ideal background, and actually training them. So these women are finding out, for the first time, that they aren't bad at technical things. It was just that the field was so gendered, and they came from environments that were strongly biased.
>I know you probably think you're being a skeptical and intelligent speaker of uncomfortable truths. But you're a lot more like a climate change denier. You're going with your gut and not the facts.
>You will probably now try to bury me with various quibbles, because you can argue against any statistic. but maybe you could try ASKING A WOMAN.
That's a heck of a lot of assumptions you're making about me, Neil. I can't understand how you came to the belief that this kind of gruff contributes to the conversation let alone to your point.
>Is it really conceivable that women were more interested in computing when it was all about hand-coding assembly for a modest amount of money, and less interested now that you can make >$100K/year doing Rails from home?
Is it really conceivable that women are abandoning well paid careers in business and other areas to become yoga instructors? Or life coaches? Or re-training in psychology? Or starting their own home businesses on etsy or similar?
There's seemingly more ways to make money than ever before. Just because sitting at home grinding out a rails app is an appealing way to make money to you, doesn't necessarily mean it is to others.
>There's tons of evidence that women are excluded from our industry, at every level -- high school, university, and even the ones that graduate and go on to work in the industry drop out at a very high rate. Other scientific or mathematical fields do not have the same problem.
How many of their male counterparts drop out of the tech industry? Or move into non-tech roles within it?
On a second point, how much more socially acceptable is it for a woman to change careers or to become stay-at-home mothers than it is for men?
I've read studies about self-actualization that have concluded that more than twice as many women achieve self-actualization than their male counterparts, so maybe it's a case of more women realising how lacking in substance tech work really is and getting out of it, than their male counterparts who simply struggle on with it?
And by the way, Neil, I have talked to women about this. My own partner is a very successful female in a competitive, scientific area. I've worked with many female engineers over the years also.
I've also seen first hand, and have actively supported, many female engineers leaving the industry to do something they find more fulfilling.
This is a complex topic and we're not going to agree on everything. Building me up, even internally, as some demonic misogynist who has no contact with women isn't going to do or contribute much though.
> Is it really conceivable that women are abandoning well paid careers in business and other areas to become yoga instructors? Or life coaches? Or re-training in psychology? Or starting their own home businesses on etsy or similar?
Yes. I know a number of people (some women, some not) who were excellent software engineers, sharp minds, good at teasing a part a puzzle who have left the field.
People balance quality of life together with compensation (and whether the opportunity is interesting), or everyone would be trying to become an investment banker.
It is certainly the case that if being a woman software engineer sucks more than being a man software engineer that calculus may result in clearly delineated differentials like the ones we see today.
While we're continuing with the superfluous anecdotal evidence, I also know of software engineers, some of them women, who are totally happy with their jobs/workplace, work their asses off, and see real tangible results of that hard work, whether it be from happy users of a shipped product or salary increases.
Quantifying what "sucks" about being a woman software engineer is borderline impossible due to the level of subjectivity involved. Even when one does, I'd posit that there is a sizable overlap between what sucks according to women and sucks according to men. At some point in the discussion though, other potential causes have to be at least considered when talking about why there's so few women engineers. Unfortunately getting to that point of is much less attractive and doesn't drive page clicks.
Of course that isn't true, being able to quantify people's experiences. Sociologists do this sort of thing all the time; there's a pretty well-established body of literature and practice and describes how you can go into the field, ask people questions (with interviews, focus groups, surveys, etc), and develop a general understanding of the field.
I'm not familiar with workplace/STEM literature around gendered experiences, but people may already be doing the research. (Makes note to self to look into this, to see if anyone is...)
That NPR story has been discussed previously on HN. A comment there led me to look into the study used for that chart, and it turned out that "data processing" and "data processing technician" were counted as computer science fields back in that peak era for women. As those fields faded, so did the number of women.
Now, that's not iron-clad explanation for the chart, but it's very much worthy of consideration as an explanation.
It's entirely possible that women were never that high a percentage of what we now classify as computer science.
In other words, maybe it's more a change in classification than anything else.
The flip side to that is that "Computer Science" traditionally wasn't about programming either, but closer to applied mathematics. It wouldn't surprise me in the least bit if a data processing technician's role back then was a lot closer to what a modern web developer does.
Figuring out the best heuristic function for A* to do path finding through your dataset? Probably computer science. Writing SQL queries and presenting the results as HTML or JSON? Probably a lot closer to "data processing technician".
Edit: looks like people are downvoting you because they disagree with you. I disagree too, but I think it's a valuable avenue to discuss.
Whenever someone says something like this, I immediately assume that they're a closed-minded individual who's ready to quibble with or dismiss anything that runs counter to their closed-off view of the world.
I've simply never seen a comment like this alongside another from the same writer that goes something like "Oh, I was wrong about that. Now I know."
So I wonder...is there anything that could be said to you that would make you say, "oh, I was wrong, now I know better"?
Normally I would say a published study but I have seen so many studies that had a horrible methodology, where the data was twisted to show something that it didn't (like this NPR study or the famous 1/4 of every women is raped at university) or where the authors plain went ahead and lied.
At a minimum for anything to be convincing it would have to show why there were less women who start studying computer science than men and that same thing can't be why there are more women who chooses to become nurses than there are men who choose to become nurses (since that something would then be either biological or societal in either case it wouldn't be an issue with our field). Depending on the specifics, I reserve the right to raise further objections.
What kind of training do you have in sociological research? I mean, you obviously consider yourself qualified to assess study methodology. I'm curious about why.
Hey, downvoters, what exactly is contentious about asking this guy--and I have no idea who he is except that he's widely dismissive of published science--about his background or training?
If we weren't talking about something as hot-button a topic as sexism in tech, but someone was all "tiny invisible biting demons? I just don't know about this so-called germ theory...", wouldn't it be fair to ask, what's their background in medical research?
>If we weren't talking about something as hot-button a topic as sexism in tech, but someone was all "tiny invisible biting demons? I just don't know about this so-called germ theory...", wouldn't it be fair to ask, what's their background in medical research?
Medicine makes concrete, testable predictions that are used every day. Sociology isn't there yet. Sociology, to me, lies somewhere between theology and medicine on the credibility scale. I wouldn't expect an atheist to educate herself on the finer points of of the Trinity and the Holy Ghost before taking her opinion on modern American Christianity seriously, for example.
Data Processing Technician at the time was more along the lines of things like running batch jobs, loading punch cards, loading tapes, and so on. And straight-up data entry work as well.
And some of it was like IT people now, but generally less technical. It was more mechanical, not a coding type job.
It's pretty different from what we classify as computer science degrees now.
Can we have an environment more welcoming to girls/women and still keep it meritocratic? I think we can. This is what many companies do.
The hackathon described in the post was not like that. It bent the meritocratic part, which breaks the right incentive to participate.
What we need more is removing prejudices and careless practices that push away females. This has everything to do with culture, speech, general environment, and nothing to do with preferring a PDF to code on a hackaton. As the poster say, don't lie. Not only to women; to anyone.
Could we please stop the adhominom attacks before this gender thread derails into rape/genocide threats (like all those that come before)?
You cite one study on NPR that another commentor has already pointed out used a flawed methodology. ONE STUDY - and you tar your opponents as science deniers.
> Is it really conceivable that women were more interested in computing when it was all about hand-coding assembly for a modest amount of money, and less interested now that you can make >$100K/year doing Rails from home?
Yes. I don't know if it's the case, but it's really easy for me to conceive.
> There's tons of evidence that women are excluded from our industry, at every level -- high school, university, and even the ones that graduate and go on to work in the industry drop out at a very high rate.
Can you point these out? Last study I saw, women entering industry tracks very closely with women graduating with CS degrees, which strongly implies that if there's a problem it's in women entering CS programs, not with industry.
It's a very complicated issue. You've provided a graph which describes a trend, a Gladwell-esque 'just so' story (yes that's a pejorative) and an anecdote by way of explanation. Actually interpreting the data and understanding why people do what they do on a large scale isn't a solved problem. We aren't Hari Seldon. Social science is called soft science for a reason. People are much, much more complicated than climate. And climate is still pretty complicated. I believe there's a huge gender problem in tech but if you want specifics? If you want to know why women aren't in this field, well you'd have to ask every woman. If you want to generalize all women and ask why most of them don't, the answer, if it even exists, is unbelievably complex with undoubtedly many factors. I don't think there's much evidence that discrimination and a gendered culture is the only reason or even the primary reason for the discrepancy, though I personally believe it plays a very significant role. But I'm open to having my mind changed. What would actual evidence even be?
What I'm convinced of is that a) more women and minorities in the industry would improve it a great deal in a variety of important ways b) Making the culture of the industry more open and welcoming to these groups is an important step we need to take in order to effect (a).
Finally, it really isn't appropriate or helpful to smear anyone who disagrees with you or even suggests an alternate explanation as a 'denier' and spew hate. This isn't climate change; nobody is disagreeing about the facts and trends. If you're so certain you're correct and uninterested in hearing disagreements, why even post? And it's very condescending to presuppose and pre-dismiss what someone you're having a discussion with will say in response to you. You're arguing in bad faith. If you want people to listen to you, you should tone down the vitriol and try to write with respect.
> Women dominate many professions. Men dominate many professions. As a society we don't need to have an equal number of penises and vaginas present in all professions.
If you did just a bit of critical thinking about which genders dominate which professions and why, including historical trends, you'd arrive to either two conclusions.
1) One gender is naturally predisposed to being nurturing and subjugated and taken care of and caring, or 2) there have been cultural protectionist barriers set up to protect the most bountiful activities.
What did people say before women reached parity or near-parity in Law and Medicine? Were they biologically disinclined then too?
Bear in mind that there are studies in apes demonstrating preferences in toys that mirror what is widely assumed to be purely cultural influences in humans.
I don't think apes culture-free. I suspect ape culture is highly unlikely to have gendering of wheeled toys. Mostly because that requires the discovery/invention of wheels and so on, which ape cultures outside our own have largely not managed.
It's reliable across different populations and has been demonstrated in monkeys (non-apes), for which the existence of culture may be more more doubtful.
>there have been cultural protectionist barriers set up to protect the most bountiful activities.
How is tech bountiful for men and why would men keep anyone out of it? My female friends all went to medical or law school or got a fancy post-graduate degree and used their prestigious bonafides to go straight into a high paying career. They make more money than me and anyone I know in tech.
The realty is that tech kinda sucks for everyone but a handful of personality types. If you're overly social, outgoing, not detail obsessed, not interested in puzzles, etc then you wont like it.
I think the gender argument is bunk. There's more division intra-gender than inter-gender. Instead we should focus on personality types, but frankly, I don't think society is mature enough for a rational discussion of this topic. Outrage and gender politics rules the social media roost and in the future people will look back at this time and think us all morons; and rightfully so.
"Less interest" along gender lines sounds like a good explanation... until you toss in racial lines as well. Black and Latino representation in IT is even worse than female representation. This strongly suggests that the problem is a matter of culture, not gender.
Black and Latino representation could simply be due to the fact that the cost of entry into tech related fields is pretty high and a lot of minorities live in poverty.
Yes. We could perhaps rescue that argument by making it more subtle: not about money, but about uninterrupted, long stretches of time to think and learn?
Blacks are also horribly overrepresented in prison - likely because they grow up in poverty. This also makes it more difficult to study and that is the prize of admission to the coding group (you can learn to program for no more than the cost of a computer, an internet connection and electricity).
Yes: it's not just about money, but also about being able to take the time to study and practice.
This affects the really poor: for example, if you're working three retail jobs just to stay afloat, you're not going to have any time to hone your skills or hobbies.
Well, and you've got to remember that people are social animals.
Is there less interest because a woman or a person of color looks at the field and sees that no one else there looks like them?
Or, more to the point, the people in the field all look like the one group that has historically dominated everyone else?
Maybe that's discouraging. I'm guessing it is. I don't have the lived-in experience of it because I'm a white male, but I do like to keep my "I'm right and I know everything" attitudes in check when I talk to women and people of color, and ask them about their experiences. One minute of listening to people is worth a million speculative web forum comments.
That's part of it, sort of. I think a lot of it boils down to kids building their expectations based on the adults they know. It's certainly my own observation from childhood. Growing up poor, I rarely interacted with adults who were educated, successful, and wealthy (except the men my father worked for, whom he despised). I don't think I knew a single engineer when I was a child. This is a huge problem for the black/latino communities, who don't have adult role models in these professions.
This is a near-daily discussion topic for me. One of my best friends is a very successful doctor and financial expert who happens to be black. He has something of a personal mission to teach financial literacy to black teenagers, because they see so little of it growing up (and I grew up without it, too). He firmly believes that software and engineering are the best path to middle class success for smart kids of color, but he's always struggling on ways to encourage it.
>"Less interest" along gender lines sounds like a good explanation
And then you have to ask, what makes the gender less interested in the topic?
A lot of the time people think this is just throwing gifts to people from certain demographic to compensate for their disadvantages, but it is a tactic to attract more people.
Some girls participate at certain event and get recognition and then you get other girls to say "oh! I could do that too!"
Word get out that a bunch of women/black/latin@ got into Recurse center after being granted sponsorships and you get more women/black/latin@ applying to more places like it around the world.
> And then you have to ask, what makes the gender less interested in the topic?
There is an implied assumption that there is a moral duty to help get more women in to CS. I have yet to hear a reason for this that does not reduce to "Just because". (e.g. the notion that in ideal, fair world, programming jobs would be split 50/50, which is basically an article of faith, opinion.)
I don't think there's a moral duty to do so, but neither do I see how doing so hurts/is wrong. You're only opening tech space to people that might be as or more talented that people already in the pool, but that might be lost because they were never told "you can actually do this".
By the early '80s, around 35% of all comp sci degrees went to women[1] and roughly the same percentage worked as programmers. The old "they're just different!" argument doesn't cut it when viewed historically.
I heard an intresting argument once, I think it was on Planet Money or Freakanomics, that argued that early personal computer advertising had a major role. Early on it was a career or maybe a video game. In the early 80s when home systems like the C64 and TRS-80 were hitting the market they were marketed, essentially, as toys for boys.
So people bought them for their kids.
Their male kids.
Fast forward 10 years and the comp sci demographics shift.
After begging my parents for months, I was given a Commodore 64 for Christmas in 1982 when I was 10 years old. My two sisters never had any interest in it despite my constant attempts to get them to use it with me.
There's also the aspect, that I seldom see mentioned, that being a "nerd" was considered unattractive/uncool in the 80s (in part because of movies like "Revenge of the Nerds").
I would see the mid 80s as the point where wider society became aware that computer programming existed as a job, your link does suggest this but also puts some blame on parents. Before this point there was no negative pressure on women to avoid it as a career, they just drifted into it same as the men.
I work with a lot of Indian and Chinese programmers and plenty of them are women. I've asked them about the whole "why are there so few women in programming?" thing and they look at me like I have three heads. To them, it's like saying "have you notice that accountants often have red hair?"
It's just a normal job that you get, no real stigma attached.
Neither does the argument of the "patriarchy" which if you go after the graph would have suddenly appeared in 1980 and only in CS domain. This whole discussion is so black and white. One person claims it's 100% natural, the other claims it's 100% not natural. Why can't it be 50% natural and 50% biased? Why is there no fine grained discussion, still...
Relevant excerpt, courtesy of Scott Alexander and his essay, "Untitled" (via Slate Star Codex); this particular excerpt is about blaming "nerds" and for a supposed anti-women culture in tech, but addresses some gender issues relevant to the parent/grandparent and the discussion generated:
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By late high school, the gap between men and women in math and programming is already as large as it will ever be. Yes, it’s true that only 20 – 23% of tech workers are women. But less than twenty percent of high school students who choose to the AP Computer Science test are women.
Nothing that happens between twelfth grade and death decreases the percent of women interested in computer science one whit.
I have no hard numbers on anything before high school, but from anecdotal evidence I know very very many young men who were programming BASIC on their dad’s old computer in elementary school, and only a tiny handful of young women who were doing the same.
I don’t want to get into a drawn out inborn-ability versus acculutration fight here. I want to say that I want to say that whether we attribute this to inborn ability or to acculturation, the entire gender gap has been determined in high school if not before. If anything, women actually gain a few percentage points as they enter Silicon Valley.
What the heck do high schoolers know about whether Silicon Valley culture is sexist or not? Even if you admit that all the online articles talking about this are being read by fourteen year olds in between Harry Potter and Twilight, these articles are a very new phenomenon and my stats are older than they are. Are you saying the is because of a high level of penetration of rumors about “toxic brogrammers” into the world of the average 11th grader?
The entire case for Silicon Valley misogyny driving women out of tech is a giant post hoc ergo propter hoc.
What’s worse, I have never heard any feminist give this case in anything like a principled way. The explanation is usually just something like of course men would use their privilege to guard a well-paying and socially prestigious field like programming from women, men have always guarded their privileges, they’ve never given anything up to women without a fight, etc.
My own field is medicine. More than half of medical students are female. In two years, more than half of doctors in the UK will be female, and the US is close behind.
Medicine is better-paying and more prestigious than programming. It’s also terrible. Medicine is full of extremely abrasive personalities. Medicine has long work hours. Medicine will laugh at you hysterically if you say you want to balance work and family life.
But women can’t get into medicine fast enough. Every so often medical journals and the popular news run scare stories about how there are so many women in medicine now that if they take off time to raise kids at their accustomed rates we’re suddenly going to find ourselves pretty much doctorless.
So any explanation of the low number of women in Silicon Valley has to equally well explain their comparatively high numbers in medicine.
Given all this, it’s really easy for me to see why it’s tempting to blame nerds. Look at these low-status people. It’s their fault. We already dislike them, now we have an even better reason to dislike them that nicely wraps up an otherwise embarassing mystery. They’re clearly repelling women with their rapey creepishness. It doesn’t hurt that occasional high profile stories of sexual harassment come out of Silicon Valley aren’t hard to find and bring viral.
(no one ever asks whether there are an equally high number of stories of sexual harassment in medicine – or law, or any other field – that no one had a reason to publicize. When I was in medical school, there was an extremely creepy incident of sexual harassment/borderline attempted rape involving a female medical student and male doctor at an outlying hospital where I worked. Nobody put it on the front page of Gawker, because ...
Interestingly enough, gender differences in the Big-5 personality traits have been shown and replicated across over 50 countries, and in fact MORE developed and MORE gender-egalitarian cultures widen that gap, rather than close it. [1]
I bring this up because I also find it intriguing that, in the most recent Stack Overflow developer survey (2015), India indicates more female programmers, and Sweden less (in relation to the United States).
I say this not to show that a more feminist country makes gender differences in personality stronger, or is causally linked to less female programmers, but rather to bunk the strength of gender-biased cultural narrative.
I will leave these last comments, taken from a commenter on Slate Star Codex from a different essay:
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I grew up in the Soviet Union in the 1970s, at the time of “peak communism”, before leaving for greener (literally) pastures (figuratively) much later. There was plenty of casual sexism, and women (and men) were expected to marry in their early 20s, if not before, then have children right away. Women had to be as cautious as in the West when walking alone at night, and cat calls, ass grabs and unwanted sexual advances were not uncommon. Girls played with dolls and boys played with Lego (an awful Russian version of it, not snapping together well, and pieces often breaking apart), as well as soldiers and trucks.
But one thing virtually did not exist, to the best of my recollection, though have no stats handy. No one thought that women are less capable at STEM. Ever since Lenin declared gender equality, among other equalities, back in 1917, women had just as much acceptance in engineering and academia as men. My middle school math teacher was a female (she was very good) so was my physics teacher (she sucked beyond belief, but then I often had lousy male teachers, as well). Our math club had roughly equal numbers of boys and girls. Yeah, I was a nerdy kid. Never got any grief because of that, though plenty because of my poor social skills. My less awkward math-loving friends had few issues. There were no “jocks” that I recall, though plenty of assholes and bullies, but the latter could be just as good at math and science as the bullied. Doing well in school was never a negative. Science was not considered the domain of eggheads, it was just one of the things people did for a living.
Women were as expected to go into Medicine, Engineering and Science as into any other occupations. A few examples. My mother designed ship engines for a living. My grandmother was responsible for air and water quality in an area with probably half a million population. My wife’s cousin got her PhD in under Kolmogorov himself, wrote several influential papers and taught math for decades, first in the Soviet Union, then in the US. My aunt was a computer programmer and is doing very well off, having retired by now. Yet she was considered the “stupid” sister by her parents, compared to my mom who was the “smart” one. In my very STEMish university department there were as many female students as male.
The child benefits were such that American women can only dream of. You get paid maternity leave a month or so before your due date, with your job held for you for six months or so, and held for you for up to three years, if I recall correctly. You automatically get a bit more money when you have children. Daycare/kindergarten was free, or almost free. There was no tenure. That is, you don’t get fired once you are hired, unless you do something criminal. What with being employed by the government and all. There were plenty of downsides to that, but competing for a permanent position was not one. Of course, there was as much politics as in any research institution or a university department. Promotions were few and far between, since almost no one ever left, except to retire, or feet first. Well, I’m stretching it a bit, there were occasional layoffs, just like everywhere else. But rarely any individual firings.
There are only two explanations for the obvious reality.
Only if you make the assumption that people make career choices that organically fit into equilibrium and as rational actors. Drawing a dichotomy seems naive.
I find that people are rational actors. If you observe social behavior at scale that doesn't suit your theory, then the theory is wrong, not the facts.
Irrational behavior should show up as noise in the system, not the order-of-magnitude bias we're observing. That strongly suggests that the bias is the result of rational actors, not the irrationality of their behavior.
Was considering black-skinned people inferior to white-skinned people purely rational? It was well above the noise level for centuries. I don't even touch religious practices here. Find out why Daniel Kaneman received his Nobel prize.
OTOH preferring a job that pays $100k to a job that pays $50k would take a lot of irrationality. I suspect that most women are not that irrational at all, so there must be something very unpleasant that prevents them from landing these jobs in a reasonably equal proportion with men.
This is a broader question... is racism and other discrimination a rational act, or not? We need to be sure to not conflate individual behavior and group behavior here.
Now, as a group behavior, discrimination is rational. If my side is strong, oppressing the other side keeps my side strong and makes it stronger, and then weakens the other side. The moral dilemmas can then be rationalized away with fancy words.
As an individual member of a group that practices discrimination, it's also rational. I can go along with my peers, accept the fancy words even though I realize they're probably nonsense, and benefit from the superior strength of my side. Or, I can call out the immorality and nonsense, and get shunned and locked out of the benefits of my position.
Once you take morality out of it, discrimination is rational behavior. Making up ridiculous lies to justify discrimination is rational behavior. It's one thing to not believe it, another thing to act against it.
Beats me what causes it. Whatever it is, perhaps it's similar to what causes "impostor syndrome" and various self-referential crises we see people having.
I got in before this really started. Sure, the PC was changing the world, but people tended to be a lot humbler about things. It was the domain of autodiadicts, not prizewinning blue-ribbon specialists.
Perhaps the sheer amount of money going into tech ( and leaving other fields of endeavor ) both raised the stakes and "attracted the wrong element."
I saw an interview - onstage - with the playwright Arthur Miller, and he thought the sheer quantity of money has destroyed the ecosystem around Broadway. It's become risk averse. I suspect the same applies to movies, music, maybe even books.
Counterpoint: women may not be as interested in technology as men are. This would explain quite a few other things as well (such as more women becomes nurses than men).
Either way the gender bias shows up way earlier than CS starts, let alone the industry. So don't blame the industry, blame HS.
Well, when one considers that programming was once seen as secretarial, "womens' work", and over time morphed into something of an "engineering" discipline, you could posit that societal pressures would have some role. I would reckon more than anything, that it's cultural bias more than an industry bias
You claim a cultural bias in this industry, yet how true is that? Maybe Charleston, SC is just too small, but I've yet to see any real exclusionary practices in the area, nor have I heard any. I hear the brogrammer tropes, I hear the stories, and I see the numbers, so sure, there is some issue among the industry, but how much of this shift has come from everyday expectations. As a male, I certainly have preconceived notions of male nurses, not to say that I have a problem with male nurses personally, but that I realize society at large has its perception and so that is not a career I would readily have considered. The source of the problem is more than the binary you present, and almost certainly has larger factors at play than "brogrammer exclusionary practices" - no matter how comfortable it is to point at that one boogeyman, things in life are rarely so black and white. There are myriad causes and thus there will always be many changes to fix the problem.
"There are only two explanations for the obvious reality. One is that women simply aren't as good at programming as men are. The other is that there is a persistent and difficult cultural bias against women in this industry."
Another is that society has a persistent and difficult cultural bias against women being technical. It seems that women are choosing not to go into this industry before they even have any contact with the industry.
Though the industry can have a role in improving the situation.
> So where does the obvious gender bias in the industry come from? It's actually gotten worse since the 1980s, not better. There are only two explanations for the obvious reality. One is that women simply aren't as good at programming as men are. The other is that there is a persistent and difficult cultural bias against women in this industry.
Option 3: Women see tech as a "risky" field compared to their other options, and choose not to go into it.
What about the explanation I usually advance on HN (openly, this is a hypothesis, but one I haven't heard strong cogent arguments against) that this is a reflection of these facts:
1. Tech is lowest on the totem pole in middle and high school. Nerds are bullied, ostracized, and generally considered uncool.
2. Girls in school are more susceptible to social pressure than boys.
I think 1) and 2) together reliably explain why there aren't many women in the tech industry. It's not the industry's bias, it's society's bias. So the correct steps (in my opinion) would be
1. Stop glorifying sports and start glorifying tech more. The math olympiad team at high schools should be lionized more than the football team.
It's weird that what you're pointing out doesn't get mentioned more as it seems (to me) a likely factor. The stigma of tech has definitely lessened over time (as the economy has less room for the non-technical), but valuing physical/social prowess is deeply rooted in biology so being intellectual/less social may always have some kind of stigma.
The presence of trans people backs this up: MtFs are overrepresented in tech, and the ratio of MtFs to FtMs in tech is about the same as the ratio of cis men to cis women in tech (I am MtF myself, and it's a running "joke" in the trans community that trans girls are all programmers). If you have the tech skills and the drive to work in the industry, you'll do fine here regardless of whether you're male or female. It's just that if you spent your childhood and teenage years being perceived as a girl, then you're supremely unlikely to even be an applicant to a tech position. At that point, there's nothing the tech industry can do to change anything.
Also, one thing I've observed is that if you're a nerd, non-nerdy boys are more likely to say "whatever floats your boat", and non-nerdy girls are more likely to say "eww, gross!". Peer pressure is the worst kind of pressure.
"So where does the obvious gender bias in the industry come from? It's actually gotten worse since the 1980s, not better."
In terms of what? I have worked at many different small and mid-sized companies and they all had women employed as developers, designers, and other positions. I know this is just my own personal experience, but if this were really as big of an issue, I would think I would see much less women in these positions.
"One is that women simply aren't as good at programming as men are. The other is that there is a persistent and difficult cultural bias against women in this industry."
So there are only two explanations? In what world are there only two explanations? Especially with something as complicated as human interactions and culture.
"But complaining about the "assault on the technology industry" in the form of pointing out that we have a sexism problem? That's not good engineering, bro."
If the 'stats' and 'information' against the tech. industry are intentionally biased and used to mislead a reader into believing a specific viewpoint, then yes, it's an assault.
I think one of the reasons that there are less women in silicon valley is because the 70 hour+ per week lifestyle doesn't work very well when you want to have a family/children. It's the same for men with children. You will not get as many promotions (or raises) in a company if you have to leave early often for appointments or just want to spend time with your children. I've seen it too often in practice to not believe it.
It's also something that isn't even talked about in all of those studies about women and men salary comparisons. When you account for the women that leave to raise kids (which interrupts many careers during a time when you gain the most experience), salaries are almost the same for both men and women.
I won't ever argue that women aren't as good at programming as men (and it doesn't make any sense to suppose they've gotten worse since the 1980s...)
If it's gotten worse since the 1980s solely due to cultural bias, you can't explain that by a cultural bias remaining the same throughout that period, you have to assume that the cultural bias changed. Out of curiosity, what's the accepted explanation for that?
>Make no mistake, any company that does not behave as the organisers of this hackathon here - not actively displaying an organised, certainly biased, effort to promote the "Women in Tech" narrative - are open to being squatted on from above from the "moral highground" occupied by the tech media.
It's important to keep in mind that tech journalism, and journalism in general, has roughly the same level of diversity as tech. One wonders why they never seem to report on their own organizations.
>This is what happens when you attack meritocracy in the name of making people feel good. It is what happens when you create an unrelenting narrative that continually assaults an industry over how many or few people with a penis or vagina they have in it. It is what happens when you've an industry surrounded by "journalists" who've never spent an actual day in it, ready to fire out articles shaming you for your lack of, or apparent abundance of, penises or vaginas in your company.
Almost. This is what happens when things are as you say and you care what the newspapers say.
HN doesn't allow you to write that in bended blinking neon so I will have to settle for repeating it:
You can only be shamed by those you care about.
As it happens I spend some part of my thursdays teaching school kids to code - boys, girls and those in between. I haven't seen any press attack us for not doing enough to bring more girls in yet, but assuming it comes I don't intend to change anything.
You are coming at this from the perspective that anything in the tech world is a true meritocracy, which I don't believe for a moment. Not in corporations, not in open source, probably not even hackathons that people do just for fun. I just don't see it.
It has natural tendencies that asymptotically pushes it towards being a meritocracy, in the same way that markets have natural tendencies towards being rational and efficient. However the key to understanding them is understanding the ways in which they can never get to 100%.
I would love to see the correlation between people who state that the tech world is meritocracy and people who feel like they have gotten where they are purely on their own merit (the truth of it doesn't matter, just what they think). I would imagine that correlation is very, very high.
I used to read Ars Technica. A few years ago, it was sold to a new owner. Then, slowly, a creeping change slunk into the content like a snake. Try a game of social justice bingo: check Ars every morning and count the number of days in the month there ISN'T an article on the front page about misogyny or kiddie porn. It used to be a website about tech. A damn good one, too.
Dear tech media: I'm a programmer. I work in a small shop that serves a niche market. We employ more females than males. When I go to work, it's to do my job; to count references and check my pointer math, not to check what genitalia my coworkers, who half the time aren't even in the same office as me, are equipped with. STOP BEATING ME OVER THE HEAD WITH THIS SHIT.
Ask my former manager, who is a woman, whether she preferred to work with the male employees or the female ones. She'll tell you the office women were a constant headache and had to be constantly babied and supplicated to.
There was a time you could go on to tech websites and just read about tech. Who is profiting from the incessant beating of the misogyny drum? Not women techies who show up to work and do their damn jobs like the rest of us.
Do you say "unfortunately" because you cannot envision a tech culture that is meritocratic and actively working towards diversity and inclusivity at the same time? Or maybe because you think that the trends of decreasing diversity and persistent sexism in the tech world are acceptable; that they're not worth lifting a finger or pen to fight. I couldn't disagree with you more in either case.
I also think you're jumping to a vastly premature conclusion if you think fear of "tech media" is what inspired this award. I don't even buy Gina's implied assertion that it was solely because of the team's demographics. (She doesn't offer enough evidence to agree or disagree with her.)
This Gina woman, I like her. Maybe I'm sympathetic because I agree with her point and enjoy a good rant post, but my own acknowledged biases aside, I think she really does make a great point here.
Credibility is important. We all want to be credible and have or accomplishments actually mean something. We do, as a society, give special prizes to folks who are doing there best but have some disability (in the broad sense of the word) that makes their best spectacular only in the light of the realization of their disability. We cheer their accomplishment because it is amazing, and we wonder what might have been if fate hadn't dealt them a bad hand. Their best might not even make it to normal and certainly not world-class. But, it inspires and we acknowledge that as a society.
This isn't one of those situations. This is giving the same credibility to people who are not encumbered as people who put the time in and understood the rules of the situation. This is giving a "Most Effort" prize to someone entering a vegetarian salad at a BBQ competition. It diminishes the credibility of the hackathon, cheapens the sense of accomplishment for participants when they finally win, and diminishes the value of experience in our industry which is a huge problem.
Awesome article. This is something much of the HN crowd will have trouble coming to terms with I'm sure. An actual woman programmer (that is, not a tech journalist/some other peripheral body commenting on an industry they are not intimate with) who (apparently) sees behind the veil of getting as many on-the-fence women kinda-sorta interested in programming into the field in an effort for an employer/organization to say "Look, we're diverse! Look at how many women we employ!" while being 100% disingenuous in the same breath.
> if what they wrote was right, what does it matter what their gender is?
There seems to be a strand of thought which claims that men have nothing to say on these issues. Pointing out that the author is a woman may be an attempt to head off such objections.
Keep an eye on such people. If they are white, do they feel entitled to voice their opinions on race issues? If they are middle class, or went to a $40,000/year college, do they expect to be heard when they speak about poverty? That will be enlightening.
To some, you do not get to have a voice unless you comply with certain identity requirements. How right or wrong you are is irrelevant unless you have the identity that says you get to speak.
To others, such as us, this is madness and truth is no respecter of identities.
That idea keeps creeping up, but it isn't just in our group it won't fly. Reality doesn't care what you are or what your feelings are - in a vaccum a feather and a steel ball fall at the same speed, regardless of your opinions, feelings or suggestions on the matter.
So in this case our POV is absolutely right. (Feelings do matter when you deal with humans, but that is also the only area in which they do).
Our POV is right to us because we accept the concept of objectivity. To those who believe identity is the primary determinant of truth, it doesn't matter what we believe. And so we're going to keep arguing with them right up to the point where we collectively decide to ignore them.
Which isn't likely to happen any time soon, given how many of them work in the tech press.
"Building static HTML pages" is not always inappropriate for a hackathon. For most college-level demos, a mostly-static demo with just enough javascript to pull data to make it feel fresh is a "hack" that will get you further than your peers. Depending on your level of ethics, some companies will actually do demos that are this level of wire-and-duct-tape to sell the product, and then build it afterwards. The one big catch with this approach is that you can't pitch something that's non-trivial technically -- if you do, and can't demonstrate you figured out the secret sauce, then your pitch becomes worthless.
Many first-timers will walk into a hackathon with just their laptop, and get stuck in the trap of setting up their environment over the whole weekend. They'll spend hours trying to download an IDE and interpreter/compiler and libraries over a poor or nonexistent internet connection. For these people, "build some static web pages" is one of the easiest ways to get them to the point where they have something they can comfortably demo in front of their peers -- and so what if it doesn't really work; they had fun and can come back next time.
If you build a thing that really works, fine. But a lot of people also walk into hackathons with pre-formed teams and 80% completed projects (idea, mocks and artwork already done; IDEs already set up; maybe even hardware already wired up) and having an emphasis on "real working code" for a time-constrained event only encourages this sort of "cheating".
In my limited experience with hackathons it's usually the most polished looking entry that wins - technical merit has little to do with it. If they built a cool site without a line of code then who the hell cares! Were there rules or a theme for this hackathon that were overlooked for this specific entry? Article seems overly critical to me.
I don't know anything about the hackathon Gina is referring to. But I think we've all seen the same thing - a faux commitment to diversity by just giving the most brown, female, or otherwise disadvantaged person in the room an award for trying.
But let's not take the GamerGate approach that diversity is therefore just a conspiracy of political correctness.
It doesn't mean that diversity is a bad idea, it's just that it's harder than giving people BS awards.
If you're committed to diversity, it means you are committing to undoing disadvantages that other people have been enduring their whole life. In other words: training, in a respectful and supportive environment.
The good news for techies is that it takes relatively little time to train a talented and intelligent person from zero to productive. We're used to smart 16-year-olds sometimes coding circles around industry veterans. Surely we can do the same for other kinds of people in their 20s and 30s.
There are two sides to this. For one, I agree with her that people who actually want to be a part of this world (not just observing with interest) and contribute, either to the field or just on a team, do not need to be held up as 'inspirational.' I hope that team knew that, yes, they didn't do a good job but at least you're doing something. I know I hated in college when I saw it happen to men and women equally.
On the other hand, there is something to be said for those people actually hacking. They have experience and knowledge they don't need to gain all at once right there to make something cool. I went in to that college I mentioned with like 6-7 years of programming under my belt. Projects and clients and etc. These people barely knew that there was a command line in Windows, let alone how pointers or c strings worked. That happened to everyone, but there were a few 'hackers' like me who knew a lot coming in. All of us were guys. There were no girl 'hackers' and I don't presume to know exact reasons why but their actions basically had to do with what those women who could have been one of the 'hackers'. The judges were trying to combat, or at least show they combat that horrible situation. I hated it when girls would say they couldn't do CS/IT stuff because it was too hard for them or something. Like if it was magic or whatever. Since, I've realized its not true
I really don't understand this at all. Yes, there are fewer women in tech than men. But where I come from they are not rare. At one workplace we had at least one woman in almost every role. Nobody ever made mention of the fact that they are women. Nobody ever treated them differently, and AFAICT none of them ever had a complaint about gender issues.
Is this a coastal thing?
Anyone else in the Detroit area agree or disagree with my assessment?
Not in Detroit but at another large company in Michigan with a mostly male engineering and IT staff. I witnessed* one situation where a woman was treated inappropriately (*I was told about it the day after it when she was trying to figure out if it was worth reporting to HR. Short story: it was, she did, no idea what happened to the guy because he doesn't normally work with engineers). Other than that situation, my female peers are always treated with respect, people have a high opinion of them, and they don't seem to have trouble getting promotions.
Sort of related, reminded me of this: a friend of mine who is a very skilled lady, attended some "programming for women only" type events, her intention was to meet people and pitch in to lend a hand.
She told me that 4 out of 5 that she went to were charging exorbitant amounts and teaching things like how to configure a pre-hosted Wordpress install and maybe basic HTML+CSS, and calling it programming.
She was pretty pissed about the whole ordeal, I remember her saying something like: When you compare the content of some 'women only' events in tech to the non-specific counterparts, it's condescending and borderline exploitative (ie, charging for pretty limited services)
Kind of a raw deal, especially for a beginner, I imagine.
I'm a woman who runs these kind of events. We did one on Saturday night, and I was criticized(by other mentors even) for "making things too hard" and "scaring women away". We were using node and the command line. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
Hey. I'm interested in the logistics behind hosting such events. How many people were present? Was this just a one-off event or is this a part of a longer workshop? Did everyone bring their own computers or did you provide them for the participants? If people brought their own, how did you deal with the fact that node.js is not pre-installed - was there any introductory period where you gave instructions how to install/configure the environment? If so, did you account for different operating systems?
If, on the other hand, you provided the computers, who supplied them? A local library, a school, a private company, yourself? I don't need a specific name, just a rough category.
I'm asking, because I'm interested in hosting a similar event, but for a younger crowd. I figured pure JavaScript would be the best choice because you don't need a fancy setup - it works straight in your web browser, no matter the platform. Using something like Python or Ruby (not to mention C++ or Java) would be more difficult to coordinate.
I agree that rewarding people for not doing anything other than showing up is antithetical to a hackathon, or the software engineering community in general.
However, I really liked your line "Pass the mountain dew, brah. Git push -f, brah.", I might steal that.
I don't see what the problem is. They didn't get the gold medal, they got an encouragement prize.
When I was in high school, I was on the soccer team. We went to a tournament where we were by far the smallest school. We had our asses handed to us.
At the ending ceremony, for the first time ever, they handed out a fair play award. To us. Did we think we'd won? No, of course not. It's just a token of appreciation, a thanks for attending.
I don't see why this kind of thing is so bad. You want to encourage people to show up to your event, so you make up a reason to thank them.
Woman software engineer here. This article, although maybe not totally on point for why the female team won an award, does hit home on gender issues in the tech.
As has been said in this thread multiple times, less women are in the field probably (and partially) because there is less interest. I believe a large part of that is how male-centric tech is portrayed while growing up. But once I displayed an interest in high school opportunities were thrown at me from left and right, to the point that I felt bad for guys who didn't get similar opportunities.
As expected, as a techie in college I was surrounded by mostly guys, which was fine 99% percent of the time. There were those special few who saw themselves superior and made sexist remarks. Guys who wanted to help with homework because they didn't think the female brain could figure it out. You just prove them wrong and move on.
There is a gender issue, but it is not all one sided. Talking to the ladies who let the gentlemen do their hw for them (and the swath of everything else)
Categories that specifically reward participation by newbies aren't new nor unique to hackathons. The only chess trophy I ever won was for "Top Unrated", which, obviously, you are only eligible for in your first rated tournament.
Honest question to those defending the status quo with the word "meritocracy": How would a functional meritocracy produce the absolute sausage-fest that is the GCC maintainers list[1]? If that seems like an unfair reference, then what makes the GCC maintainers list either so especially non-functional or not meritocratic at selecting people based purely upon skill instead of their genitals?
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[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 171 ms ] threadGive those who want to learn a helping hand, sure, but not some over the top tech minority outreach program that then pisses all over the very people you are claiming to try and help in the first place.
I think it's safe to say they sprung up in response to a market need--they didn't just come out of nowhere, for no point, and suddenly gain a lot of traction (because nothing does)--so how well do they work overall?
I, unlike you, am not interested in dismissing them all, because I have seen lots of times how young white dudes get to run the show, and end up dismissing everyone who doesn't look like them, regardless of so-called merit.
So I wonder...how much was this one an isolated "done wrong" event?
The politics of shaming and diversity guidelines are not market factors. This is like saying that the market wants us to have brainless middle managers. These things are all market inefficiencies that we should strive to eliminate or minimize.
I can't imagine tech pioneers from the 80s and 90s being under scrutiny like groups today are. Would we have Linux if Linus worried that his largely white male contributors weren't diverse enough? Would we have Apple is Jobs felt like he needed to "white knight" the women at his company?
Probably not.
If the market didn't want us to have "brainless middle managers," as you'd apparently characterize a wide swath of our colleagues, then those people would already have been efficiency'd out.
Just like, if people who don't look like you weren't lining up to be involved in hackathons and groups that consist of people who don't look like you, those events wouldn't exist.
People pay for it, whether you like it or approve of it or not. Behold, the market works!
If free market theory claimed that bad employees can't exist, that would be a pretty strong blow against free market theory ;-)
Of course they are! Just like the politics of discrimination and dehumanization were market factors in previous eras. To pretend otherwise is to take a very narrow view of the market that ignores the full range of human interactions. Indeed, trends in industries such as fashion, music, film, and gaming are almost entirely driven by what ideas are popular at a given time and not by some objective utility function of the product.
I don't know about you, but I'm not at all interested in how the intended audience feels. I'm strongly interested in how their behaviors change with these programs.
Programs that make people feel good but don't change behavior (i.e., don't get more women into tech) are not of value.
Serious question. I have never seen it.
I've experienced this personally.
Maybe not a specific person or event, but would the constant demand for "diversity reports" from tech companies from the "tech media" not be an example of this? And the subsequent shaming by the same media of these same companies for having too many penises in the office, or too few vaginas?
I apologise for the vulgarity of the above, but that's what it is when it comes down to it.
I realize it's not exactly what you asked for, but it was a clear case of "guilty until proven innocent."
It's even more basic than that - What is hacking? Take a look at the MIT Gallery of Hacks for one perspective: http://hacks.mit.edu/
To me it means building something awesome, and it sounds entirely possible this team did that without writing a line of code.
The second half of the piece just didn't seem that compelling, though. What if the pdfs were inspirational? Maybe they were about saving baby seals or something. And novice guys get passes on all sorts of stuff too. So once some girls got a prize that seems fake to someone who worked hard. Also, coding schools promise to make people ninja rockstars in six weeks, because they want to sell spots and people want to believe it.
Maybe the piece is upvoted because people resonate with that feeling of being mad that someone "undeserving" got a prize. I don't see that as a useful feeling to cultivate.
Different people may have different reasons for going to hackathons. For some, it may be to practise their skills at solving more technical problems and for others it may be simply to validate an idea, for which a wix side and a PDF are perfectly reasonable MVPs.
It's a great thing idea to set aside categories to encourage participation for novice / beginners to hackathons. We all have to start somewhere, perhaps the author forgot that she herself was in a similar situation just a few months ago.
And thank fuck someone touched on those "Pay us $30,000 and become a 1337 h4x0r camps. I don't know if we're in a bubble, but if it were to burst, there's gonna be some surprised folks getting culled. If you attended one of camps, you better not stop clawing your way to the top. You better keep clawing util your fingers are bloody, nail-less nubs. You attended a Ruby camp? That's sweet, but you're applying to a Java shop, and you cannot "fake it till you make it" with your cargo-cult practices. You can't even begin to describe what an interface is, but hey, that $70k/year job is calling your name, isn't it?
Hell, maybe I'm just bitter and jaded at the ripe old age of 21 after doing this professionally for 4 years, or that I've been attending the prestigious LMGTFY University since I was about 9. Or maybe I'm a little brain damaged after my copy of Sedgewick dropped of the bookshelf and onto my head. Maybe those early, informative years spent cutting my teeth on assembly have done some irreparable damaged to my psyche. Stop pandering, lend a hand, lend encouragement to the folks who need it. Everyone had helped along but way, and I spend way too much time tutoring folks, but stop pushing folks into the industry who are chasing the almighty dollar or just aren't interested. Help them get their feet wet, but if they don't like it, don't force them off the diving board. I'm gonna be maintaining their cruft long after they're gone.
https://2013.spaceappschallenge.org/location/new-york/
https://2014.spaceappschallenge.org/location/new-york/
https://2015.spaceappschallenge.org/location/new-york-ny/
And the project in question that didn't deserve the award, in the author's opinion: http://aekblaw.wix.com/asteroidascent
they also have a sample curricula http://media.wix.com/ugd/57f674_99d136685bfe400f80022bc3652e...
and a code repo https://github.com/spaceappsnyc/asteroidascent
The hackathon you link to is from 2013, the article is from 2 days ago and that repo you link had its first commit 4 days ago.
Perhaps her experience is based off what was presented 2 years ago at the actual hackathon and not what they've produced in the subsequent time?
"an international mass collaboration focused on space exploration that takes place over 48-hours in cities around the world"
a Wix site and a sample curriculum certainly doesn't sound like an unfair entry here.
As someone else pointed out: "1) What is the nature of hackathons? Many are pitchathons."
I have also lost "hackathons" to projects that were objectively NOT technical (mocked-up images of an app, without a single line of code). It happens often, and it's always a bummer to lose, but often they might actually be solving a bigger issue than me or my team.
For the group of women (girls?) that won - as you pointed out - maybe they will continue doing hackathons (and maybe - despite your doubt - they even eventually progressing beyond the Wix stage) because they won an encouragement award at their first hackathon. It's like a consolation prize for mustering up the courage to present their product that was obviously not as technically advanced as some other products. That takes guts, a lot of people (men/women/other...) might just slink out the back door after the first few presentations.
So good for them, in that sense - they indeed are an inspiration for people just starting out.
It is magnificent to encourage newcomers to the field. We should also have level playing fields for folks to participate with everyone (and not stratify further than we already do). But it sucks when these sorts of objectives collide and end up alienating people. (and heck sports have awards for rookies for example!)
The other thing that's really gear-grinding about OP is that... we're judging our worth based on what happens in hackathons? I hope to $deity most people aren't doing that, because hackathons are super slanted POVs on the world.
Well, for rookies who outperform what's expected of rookies... rookies who perform at the same level as their more experienced peers.
[Edit: /s]
My mother and grandmother were both software engineers at IBM, at a time where the male dominated tech culture was MUCH worse than it is today, and they both did really well. My boss, a woman, is arguably the best software engineer at our company.
Women don't need handholding. They need incentive. They need to be exposed to tech culture. Lowering the bar for women and putting them on a pedestal for showing up does a great injustice to women like my mother and grandmother who, despite working in a culture which heavily discriminated against women, became kick-ass engineers.
Please, please for the love of root do not use rhetoric like this. It's hollow posturing that offers nothing beyond scolding someone for the sin of not agreeing with you.
Being insulting is not the same as being wrong. Being distasteful is not the same as being wrong. Only one thing is the same as being wrong, and that's being wrong. I know this is an insulting, disrespectful, and distasteful thing to say... but being offended does not make you right.
So I have a question for you: why did you write the first line of your comment?
This is positively the way to go.
You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. There is no satiating the thirst from the "tech media" for faux outrage driven clicks.
This is a woman in tech, but more specifically she is a techie in tech. She has been assimilated into the normality of the modern tech industry and is participating in a highly competitive, skill driven arena.
Make no mistake, any company that does not behave as the organisers of this hackathon here - not actively displaying an organised, certainly biased, effort to promote the "Women in Tech" narrative - are open to being squatted on from above from the "moral highground" occupied by the tech media.
This is what happens when you attack meritocracy in the name of making people feel good. It is what happens when you create an unrelenting narrative that continually assaults an industry over how many or few people with a penis or vagina they have in it. It is what happens when you've an industry surrounded by "journalists" who've never spent an actual day in it, ready to fire out articles shaming you for your lack of, or apparent abundance of, penises or vaginas in your company.
The author here is simply another bystander to the continued assault on the technology industry.
Most of us would agree that it's the latter. So the question is, what do we do about it? Whinging about how terrible it is that we are even talking about this isn't it - that's just wrapping bias in silence. Any good engineer can tell you that a problem doesn't go away just because you stop acknowledging it.
The author makes an excellent point... that "Thanks for showing up" awards aren't a solution, either. We love our craft because it's hard, because it measures us against hard reality rather than the soft vagaries of social politics. We cannot bring gender equality into software engineering by trying to turn it into social rather than technical victories.
But complaining about the "assault on the technology industry" in the form of pointing out that we have a sexism problem? That's not good engineering, bro.
It's not at all obvious that it exists: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/14....
More men may work in tech because on average men are more interested in the subject.
The key word in the preceding sentence is "may." "Bias" is complex and hard to prove and in the case of the tech industry there may be bias or there may not be. Even the phrase "tech industry" is odd. Does that include academic scientists? Where does tech end and other industries start? See also e.g. http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science.
A lack of good candidates is a serious problem (this even more obvious racially than by gender - where are the black and latino engineers?). But the way women are treated relative to their male peers is a massive problem within software, as opposed to the broader STEM fields. Don't believe me? Sit down and have a heart-to-heart talk with experienced female software engineers about it sometime. Ask them what sexism they've experienced at work, how it's hampered their careers and their job satisfaction.
This would seem to be a third explanation for something you said had only two explanations.
I don't think you'd say that the first one doesn't exist, and when you say discrimination starts at childhood, that sounds a lot like the second.
One needs to be careful not to equivocate between the two, because they're different problems that have different causes and different solutions that need to be implemented by different people.
When you describe the two of them together, as a single possible cause, you seem to be making this mistake.
Just a tip: the use of "begs the question" to which you refer is always intransitive. The transitive use, as by the poster you responded to, is distinct, and unambiguously a different use than the intransitive use. AFAICT, its inspired by the transitive use, which is an odd (from the point of view of the meanings of the individual words in modern English) translation of a Latin phrase into English, and -- unlike the intransitive use -- actually uses the individual words in something like their usual definitions. It also provides a convenient rationalization of the older intransitive use as a specialization of the transitive use where the question for which an answer is demanded is that of the support for the premise under discussion, so that the transitive use turns the intransitive use from an idiom that is detached from the meanings of the words in the language outside of the idiom to one connected to it in a clear way.
Accepting the transitive use, which is widely established and whose meaning is immediately clear to anyone who encounters it and which is completely unambiguously differentiated from the intransitive use, does nothing but make life better for everyone.
Opposing it isn't merely pedantry, its pedantry that ignores clear grammatical distinctions and seeks to find confusion where there is none to be found.
Being an autodidact is a way to satisfy an interest quietly and to avoid pressure, in contrast to classes. So if outside pressure hinders participation, it should hinder it less among autodidacts than it does among others. Thus, (# female autodidact coders) / (# female coders) should be higher than (# of male autodidact coders) / (# male coders).
As an example, to learn more than broken Hindi I'll take a class because there is no social pressure against it. But if I want to learn about pickup artistry (which social pressure opposes), I'm going to do it on the internet. (Both examples chosen to be subjects best learned in person.)
Anyone have data on this?
But the way women are treated relative to their male peers is a massive problem within software, as opposed to the broader STEM fields.
This is weak evidence against female treatment being the cause of underrepresentation. Math-heavy STEM fields (physics, math, electrical engineering) also have very few women.
Where are the _____ engineers? As a rule, they're in the huge fucking pile of resumes in the garbage. But that answer is too simple and obvious, it makes the situation too clear. Instead, it has to be a big mystery about how it just magically happens that there isn't a black face in the office even though we are all, of course, very enlightened and not racist here on HN, and all of us are doing our very best, so sorry if you don't have enough experience for any job or are not a cultural fit anywhere.
On the other side of this, according to the NMC[0] only 10.69% of Nurses in 2008 were men (UK). I've personally never seen anyone highlight this as a diversity issue. This is just a guess but I'd say men in general aren't as interested in nursing as women, or just don't consider it when deciding what to do with their careers.
I think specific instances of sexism or discrimination should be stamped out, but I don't think we should be "helping" anyone to a specific career - I'd rather credit everyone with a little intelligence and assume if they want to be a nurse or work in tech, then they will strive to do so without the artificial leg-up.
[0] http://www.nmc.org.uk/globalassets/siteDocuments/Statistical...
Yes, this always comes up in these discussions, and as is always pointed out, you haven't heard of it because you aren't in that industry and you haven't done even a cursory google search of the topic.
Seriously, there are a ton of efforts to bring better diversity to the nursing field.
What about option three: They've less of an interest in the area.
When these topics come up there seems to be this weird suspension of the fact that men and women, or girls and boys, are different in many ways. They've different interests, they're driven differently, they've different skills, etc.
They're not perfectly aligned bell curves across the board. We also don't need them to be. We don't need men and women to be identical save for what is between their legs in terms of their interests, or how they perform, or their desires, or whatever else.
We simply need to make the same opportunities available to everyone regardless of what is between their legs. If a man wants to become a nurse, he should have the opportunity to and he does. If a woman wants to become a programmer, she should have the same opportunity and graduate employment rates would show that they do.
Women dominate many professions. Men dominate many professions. As a society we don't need to have an equal number of penises and vaginas present in all professions.
Leave the opportunities open and let people develop their own interests.
This graph says it all, I think. Is it really conceivable that women were more interested in computing when it was all about hand-coding assembly for a modest amount of money, and less interested now that you can make >$100K/year doing Rails from home?
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-wom...
There's tons of evidence that women are excluded from our industry, at every level -- high school, university, and even the ones that graduate and go on to work in the industry drop out at a very high rate. Other scientific or mathematical fields do not have the same problem.
You will probably now try to bury me with various quibbles, because you can argue against any statistic. but maybe you could try ASKING A WOMAN.
Anecdotally, I know many women who have since found coding later in life. I've heard several times that they wandered into some science or computer club early on and had horrible experiences and left. They're coming into it now, mostly due to the high demand for engineers such that the industry is (reluctantly) hiring people who don't have the ideal background, and actually training them. So these women are finding out, for the first time, that they aren't bad at technical things. It was just that the field was so gendered, and they came from environments that were strongly biased.
>You will probably now try to bury me with various quibbles, because you can argue against any statistic. but maybe you could try ASKING A WOMAN.
That's a heck of a lot of assumptions you're making about me, Neil. I can't understand how you came to the belief that this kind of gruff contributes to the conversation let alone to your point.
>Is it really conceivable that women were more interested in computing when it was all about hand-coding assembly for a modest amount of money, and less interested now that you can make >$100K/year doing Rails from home?
Is it really conceivable that women are abandoning well paid careers in business and other areas to become yoga instructors? Or life coaches? Or re-training in psychology? Or starting their own home businesses on etsy or similar?
There's seemingly more ways to make money than ever before. Just because sitting at home grinding out a rails app is an appealing way to make money to you, doesn't necessarily mean it is to others.
>There's tons of evidence that women are excluded from our industry, at every level -- high school, university, and even the ones that graduate and go on to work in the industry drop out at a very high rate. Other scientific or mathematical fields do not have the same problem.
How many of their male counterparts drop out of the tech industry? Or move into non-tech roles within it?
On a second point, how much more socially acceptable is it for a woman to change careers or to become stay-at-home mothers than it is for men?
I've read studies about self-actualization that have concluded that more than twice as many women achieve self-actualization than their male counterparts, so maybe it's a case of more women realising how lacking in substance tech work really is and getting out of it, than their male counterparts who simply struggle on with it?
And by the way, Neil, I have talked to women about this. My own partner is a very successful female in a competitive, scientific area. I've worked with many female engineers over the years also.
I've also seen first hand, and have actively supported, many female engineers leaving the industry to do something they find more fulfilling.
This is a complex topic and we're not going to agree on everything. Building me up, even internally, as some demonic misogynist who has no contact with women isn't going to do or contribute much though.
Yes. I know a number of people (some women, some not) who were excellent software engineers, sharp minds, good at teasing a part a puzzle who have left the field.
People balance quality of life together with compensation (and whether the opportunity is interesting), or everyone would be trying to become an investment banker.
It is certainly the case that if being a woman software engineer sucks more than being a man software engineer that calculus may result in clearly delineated differentials like the ones we see today.
Quantifying what "sucks" about being a woman software engineer is borderline impossible due to the level of subjectivity involved. Even when one does, I'd posit that there is a sizable overlap between what sucks according to women and sucks according to men. At some point in the discussion though, other potential causes have to be at least considered when talking about why there's so few women engineers. Unfortunately getting to that point of is much less attractive and doesn't drive page clicks.
I'm not familiar with workplace/STEM literature around gendered experiences, but people may already be doing the research. (Makes note to self to look into this, to see if anyone is...)
Now, that's not iron-clad explanation for the chart, but it's very much worthy of consideration as an explanation.
It's entirely possible that women were never that high a percentage of what we now classify as computer science.
In other words, maybe it's more a change in classification than anything else.
Figuring out the best heuristic function for A* to do path finding through your dataset? Probably computer science. Writing SQL queries and presenting the results as HTML or JSON? Probably a lot closer to "data processing technician".
Edit: looks like people are downvoting you because they disagree with you. I disagree too, but I think it's a valuable avenue to discuss.
I've simply never seen a comment like this alongside another from the same writer that goes something like "Oh, I was wrong about that. Now I know."
So I wonder...is there anything that could be said to you that would make you say, "oh, I was wrong, now I know better"?
At a minimum for anything to be convincing it would have to show why there were less women who start studying computer science than men and that same thing can't be why there are more women who chooses to become nurses than there are men who choose to become nurses (since that something would then be either biological or societal in either case it wouldn't be an issue with our field). Depending on the specifics, I reserve the right to raise further objections.
If we weren't talking about something as hot-button a topic as sexism in tech, but someone was all "tiny invisible biting demons? I just don't know about this so-called germ theory...", wouldn't it be fair to ask, what's their background in medical research?
Medicine makes concrete, testable predictions that are used every day. Sociology isn't there yet. Sociology, to me, lies somewhere between theology and medicine on the credibility scale. I wouldn't expect an atheist to educate herself on the finer points of of the Trinity and the Holy Ghost before taking her opinion on modern American Christianity seriously, for example.
And some of it was like IT people now, but generally less technical. It was more mechanical, not a coding type job.
It's pretty different from what we classify as computer science degrees now.
The hackathon described in the post was not like that. It bent the meritocratic part, which breaks the right incentive to participate.
What we need more is removing prejudices and careless practices that push away females. This has everything to do with culture, speech, general environment, and nothing to do with preferring a PDF to code on a hackaton. As the poster say, don't lie. Not only to women; to anyone.
You cite one study on NPR that another commentor has already pointed out used a flawed methodology. ONE STUDY - and you tar your opponents as science deniers.
Yes. I don't know if it's the case, but it's really easy for me to conceive.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/10/28/359419934/who-stud...
http://www.randalolson.com/2014/06/15/the-double-edged-sword...
Can you point these out? Last study I saw, women entering industry tracks very closely with women graduating with CS degrees, which strongly implies that if there's a problem it's in women entering CS programs, not with industry.
What I'm convinced of is that a) more women and minorities in the industry would improve it a great deal in a variety of important ways b) Making the culture of the industry more open and welcoming to these groups is an important step we need to take in order to effect (a).
Finally, it really isn't appropriate or helpful to smear anyone who disagrees with you or even suggests an alternate explanation as a 'denier' and spew hate. This isn't climate change; nobody is disagreeing about the facts and trends. If you're so certain you're correct and uninterested in hearing disagreements, why even post? And it's very condescending to presuppose and pre-dismiss what someone you're having a discussion with will say in response to you. You're arguing in bad faith. If you want people to listen to you, you should tone down the vitriol and try to write with respect.
If you did just a bit of critical thinking about which genders dominate which professions and why, including historical trends, you'd arrive to either two conclusions.
1) One gender is naturally predisposed to being nurturing and subjugated and taken care of and caring, or 2) there have been cultural protectionist barriers set up to protect the most bountiful activities.
What did people say before women reached parity or near-parity in Law and Medicine? Were they biologically disinclined then too?
Bear in mind that there are studies in apes demonstrating preferences in toys that mirror what is widely assumed to be purely cultural influences in humans.
It's pretty easy to replicate, here's an example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm9xXyw2f7g
How is tech bountiful for men and why would men keep anyone out of it? My female friends all went to medical or law school or got a fancy post-graduate degree and used their prestigious bonafides to go straight into a high paying career. They make more money than me and anyone I know in tech.
The realty is that tech kinda sucks for everyone but a handful of personality types. If you're overly social, outgoing, not detail obsessed, not interested in puzzles, etc then you wont like it.
I think the gender argument is bunk. There's more division intra-gender than inter-gender. Instead we should focus on personality types, but frankly, I don't think society is mature enough for a rational discussion of this topic. Outrage and gender politics rules the social media roost and in the future people will look back at this time and think us all morons; and rightfully so.
I'm a mid-career SE, with lots of people on this forum making a lot more than I do, and I appear to be at the 97% percentile for annual income.
Stack that paper, dollar dollar bill y'all.
(How would we falsify this?)
This affects the really poor: for example, if you're working three retail jobs just to stay afloat, you're not going to have any time to hone your skills or hobbies.
which by no means will ever get you a job in the tech industry. Nice hobby, though.
Is there less interest because a woman or a person of color looks at the field and sees that no one else there looks like them?
Or, more to the point, the people in the field all look like the one group that has historically dominated everyone else?
Maybe that's discouraging. I'm guessing it is. I don't have the lived-in experience of it because I'm a white male, but I do like to keep my "I'm right and I know everything" attitudes in check when I talk to women and people of color, and ask them about their experiences. One minute of listening to people is worth a million speculative web forum comments.
This is a near-daily discussion topic for me. One of my best friends is a very successful doctor and financial expert who happens to be black. He has something of a personal mission to teach financial literacy to black teenagers, because they see so little of it growing up (and I grew up without it, too). He firmly believes that software and engineering are the best path to middle class success for smart kids of color, but he's always struggling on ways to encourage it.
And then you have to ask, what makes the gender less interested in the topic?
A lot of the time people think this is just throwing gifts to people from certain demographic to compensate for their disadvantages, but it is a tactic to attract more people.
Some girls participate at certain event and get recognition and then you get other girls to say "oh! I could do that too!"
Word get out that a bunch of women/black/latin@ got into Recurse center after being granted sponsorships and you get more women/black/latin@ applying to more places like it around the world.
There is an implied assumption that there is a moral duty to help get more women in to CS. I have yet to hear a reason for this that does not reduce to "Just because". (e.g. the notion that in ideal, fair world, programming jobs would be split 50/50, which is basically an article of faith, opinion.)
[1] http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-wom...
So people bought them for their kids.
Their male kids.
Fast forward 10 years and the comp sci demographics shift.
I've seen a lot of advertisements for the Commodore 64 and don't recall any gender bias. Here is an example of the ads I remember:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLwTLpGzBB4
After begging my parents for months, I was given a Commodore 64 for Christmas in 1982 when I was 10 years old. My two sisters never had any interest in it despite my constant attempts to get them to use it with me.
Somehow I doubt anyone here is going to do a quantitative analysis of 80's advertising...
It's just a normal job that you get, no real stigma attached.
--
By late high school, the gap between men and women in math and programming is already as large as it will ever be. Yes, it’s true that only 20 – 23% of tech workers are women. But less than twenty percent of high school students who choose to the AP Computer Science test are women.
Nothing that happens between twelfth grade and death decreases the percent of women interested in computer science one whit.
I have no hard numbers on anything before high school, but from anecdotal evidence I know very very many young men who were programming BASIC on their dad’s old computer in elementary school, and only a tiny handful of young women who were doing the same.
I don’t want to get into a drawn out inborn-ability versus acculutration fight here. I want to say that I want to say that whether we attribute this to inborn ability or to acculturation, the entire gender gap has been determined in high school if not before. If anything, women actually gain a few percentage points as they enter Silicon Valley.
What the heck do high schoolers know about whether Silicon Valley culture is sexist or not? Even if you admit that all the online articles talking about this are being read by fourteen year olds in between Harry Potter and Twilight, these articles are a very new phenomenon and my stats are older than they are. Are you saying the is because of a high level of penetration of rumors about “toxic brogrammers” into the world of the average 11th grader?
The entire case for Silicon Valley misogyny driving women out of tech is a giant post hoc ergo propter hoc.
What’s worse, I have never heard any feminist give this case in anything like a principled way. The explanation is usually just something like of course men would use their privilege to guard a well-paying and socially prestigious field like programming from women, men have always guarded their privileges, they’ve never given anything up to women without a fight, etc.
My own field is medicine. More than half of medical students are female. In two years, more than half of doctors in the UK will be female, and the US is close behind.
Medicine is better-paying and more prestigious than programming. It’s also terrible. Medicine is full of extremely abrasive personalities. Medicine has long work hours. Medicine will laugh at you hysterically if you say you want to balance work and family life.
But women can’t get into medicine fast enough. Every so often medical journals and the popular news run scare stories about how there are so many women in medicine now that if they take off time to raise kids at their accustomed rates we’re suddenly going to find ourselves pretty much doctorless.
So any explanation of the low number of women in Silicon Valley has to equally well explain their comparatively high numbers in medicine.
Given all this, it’s really easy for me to see why it’s tempting to blame nerds. Look at these low-status people. It’s their fault. We already dislike them, now we have an even better reason to dislike them that nicely wraps up an otherwise embarassing mystery. They’re clearly repelling women with their rapey creepishness. It doesn’t hurt that occasional high profile stories of sexual harassment come out of Silicon Valley aren’t hard to find and bring viral.
(no one ever asks whether there are an equally high number of stories of sexual harassment in medicine – or law, or any other field – that no one had a reason to publicize. When I was in medical school, there was an extremely creepy incident of sexual harassment/borderline attempted rape involving a female medical student and male doctor at an outlying hospital where I worked. Nobody put it on the front page of Gawker, because ...
I bring this up because I also find it intriguing that, in the most recent Stack Overflow developer survey (2015), India indicates more female programmers, and Sweden less (in relation to the United States).
I say this not to show that a more feminist country makes gender differences in personality stronger, or is causally linked to less female programmers, but rather to bunk the strength of gender-biased cultural narrative.
I will leave these last comments, taken from a commenter on Slate Star Codex from a different essay:
--
I grew up in the Soviet Union in the 1970s, at the time of “peak communism”, before leaving for greener (literally) pastures (figuratively) much later. There was plenty of casual sexism, and women (and men) were expected to marry in their early 20s, if not before, then have children right away. Women had to be as cautious as in the West when walking alone at night, and cat calls, ass grabs and unwanted sexual advances were not uncommon. Girls played with dolls and boys played with Lego (an awful Russian version of it, not snapping together well, and pieces often breaking apart), as well as soldiers and trucks.
But one thing virtually did not exist, to the best of my recollection, though have no stats handy. No one thought that women are less capable at STEM. Ever since Lenin declared gender equality, among other equalities, back in 1917, women had just as much acceptance in engineering and academia as men. My middle school math teacher was a female (she was very good) so was my physics teacher (she sucked beyond belief, but then I often had lousy male teachers, as well). Our math club had roughly equal numbers of boys and girls. Yeah, I was a nerdy kid. Never got any grief because of that, though plenty because of my poor social skills. My less awkward math-loving friends had few issues. There were no “jocks” that I recall, though plenty of assholes and bullies, but the latter could be just as good at math and science as the bullied. Doing well in school was never a negative. Science was not considered the domain of eggheads, it was just one of the things people did for a living.
Women were as expected to go into Medicine, Engineering and Science as into any other occupations. A few examples. My mother designed ship engines for a living. My grandmother was responsible for air and water quality in an area with probably half a million population. My wife’s cousin got her PhD in under Kolmogorov himself, wrote several influential papers and taught math for decades, first in the Soviet Union, then in the US. My aunt was a computer programmer and is doing very well off, having retired by now. Yet she was considered the “stupid” sister by her parents, compared to my mom who was the “smart” one. In my very STEMish university department there were as many female students as male.
The child benefits were such that American women can only dream of. You get paid maternity leave a month or so before your due date, with your job held for you for six months or so, and held for you for up to three years, if I recall correctly. You automatically get a bit more money when you have children. Daycare/kindergarten was free, or almost free. There was no tenure. That is, you don’t get fired once you are hired, unless you do something criminal. What with being employed by the government and all. There were plenty of downsides to that, but competing for a permanent position was not one. Of course, there was as much politics as in any research institution or a university department. Promotions were few and far between, since almost no one ever left, except to retire, or feet first. Well, I’m stretching it a bit, there were occasional layoffs, just like everywhere else. But rarely any individual firings.
So, the social experiment a feminist c...
Only if you make the assumption that people make career choices that organically fit into equilibrium and as rational actors. Drawing a dichotomy seems naive.
Irrational behavior should show up as noise in the system, not the order-of-magnitude bias we're observing. That strongly suggests that the bias is the result of rational actors, not the irrationality of their behavior.
OTOH preferring a job that pays $100k to a job that pays $50k would take a lot of irrationality. I suspect that most women are not that irrational at all, so there must be something very unpleasant that prevents them from landing these jobs in a reasonably equal proportion with men.
Now, as a group behavior, discrimination is rational. If my side is strong, oppressing the other side keeps my side strong and makes it stronger, and then weakens the other side. The moral dilemmas can then be rationalized away with fancy words.
As an individual member of a group that practices discrimination, it's also rational. I can go along with my peers, accept the fancy words even though I realize they're probably nonsense, and benefit from the superior strength of my side. Or, I can call out the immorality and nonsense, and get shunned and locked out of the benefits of my position.
Once you take morality out of it, discrimination is rational behavior. Making up ridiculous lies to justify discrimination is rational behavior. It's one thing to not believe it, another thing to act against it.
I got in before this really started. Sure, the PC was changing the world, but people tended to be a lot humbler about things. It was the domain of autodiadicts, not prizewinning blue-ribbon specialists.
Perhaps the sheer amount of money going into tech ( and leaving other fields of endeavor ) both raised the stakes and "attracted the wrong element."
I saw an interview - onstage - with the playwright Arthur Miller, and he thought the sheer quantity of money has destroyed the ecosystem around Broadway. It's become risk averse. I suspect the same applies to movies, music, maybe even books.
Either way the gender bias shows up way earlier than CS starts, let alone the industry. So don't blame the industry, blame HS.
Whoah, that's definitely not true. What you mean is "I can only think of two explanations"
You claim a cultural bias in this industry, yet how true is that? Maybe Charleston, SC is just too small, but I've yet to see any real exclusionary practices in the area, nor have I heard any. I hear the brogrammer tropes, I hear the stories, and I see the numbers, so sure, there is some issue among the industry, but how much of this shift has come from everyday expectations. As a male, I certainly have preconceived notions of male nurses, not to say that I have a problem with male nurses personally, but that I realize society at large has its perception and so that is not a career I would readily have considered. The source of the problem is more than the binary you present, and almost certainly has larger factors at play than "brogrammer exclusionary practices" - no matter how comfortable it is to point at that one boogeyman, things in life are rarely so black and white. There are myriad causes and thus there will always be many changes to fix the problem.
Another is that society has a persistent and difficult cultural bias against women being technical. It seems that women are choosing not to go into this industry before they even have any contact with the industry.
Though the industry can have a role in improving the situation.
Option 3: Women see tech as a "risky" field compared to their other options, and choose not to go into it.
See: http://blessingofkings.blogspot.com/2014/10/women-in-compute...
1. Tech is lowest on the totem pole in middle and high school. Nerds are bullied, ostracized, and generally considered uncool.
2. Girls in school are more susceptible to social pressure than boys.
I think 1) and 2) together reliably explain why there aren't many women in the tech industry. It's not the industry's bias, it's society's bias. So the correct steps (in my opinion) would be
1. Stop glorifying sports and start glorifying tech more. The math olympiad team at high schools should be lionized more than the football team.
2. There is no step 2)
This comic should be required reading: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1883#comic
The presence of trans people backs this up: MtFs are overrepresented in tech, and the ratio of MtFs to FtMs in tech is about the same as the ratio of cis men to cis women in tech (I am MtF myself, and it's a running "joke" in the trans community that trans girls are all programmers). If you have the tech skills and the drive to work in the industry, you'll do fine here regardless of whether you're male or female. It's just that if you spent your childhood and teenage years being perceived as a girl, then you're supremely unlikely to even be an applicant to a tech position. At that point, there's nothing the tech industry can do to change anything.
Also, one thing I've observed is that if you're a nerd, non-nerdy boys are more likely to say "whatever floats your boat", and non-nerdy girls are more likely to say "eww, gross!". Peer pressure is the worst kind of pressure.
In terms of what? I have worked at many different small and mid-sized companies and they all had women employed as developers, designers, and other positions. I know this is just my own personal experience, but if this were really as big of an issue, I would think I would see much less women in these positions.
"One is that women simply aren't as good at programming as men are. The other is that there is a persistent and difficult cultural bias against women in this industry."
So there are only two explanations? In what world are there only two explanations? Especially with something as complicated as human interactions and culture.
"But complaining about the "assault on the technology industry" in the form of pointing out that we have a sexism problem? That's not good engineering, bro."
If the 'stats' and 'information' against the tech. industry are intentionally biased and used to mislead a reader into believing a specific viewpoint, then yes, it's an assault.
I think one of the reasons that there are less women in silicon valley is because the 70 hour+ per week lifestyle doesn't work very well when you want to have a family/children. It's the same for men with children. You will not get as many promotions (or raises) in a company if you have to leave early often for appointments or just want to spend time with your children. I've seen it too often in practice to not believe it.
It's also something that isn't even talked about in all of those studies about women and men salary comparisons. When you account for the women that leave to raise kids (which interrupts many careers during a time when you gain the most experience), salaries are almost the same for both men and women.
If it's gotten worse since the 1980s solely due to cultural bias, you can't explain that by a cultural bias remaining the same throughout that period, you have to assume that the cultural bias changed. Out of curiosity, what's the accepted explanation for that?
The tech press is pretty much the most sycophantic press sector out there, in its relationship to the industry it is supposed to critically cover.
It's important to keep in mind that tech journalism, and journalism in general, has roughly the same level of diversity as tech. One wonders why they never seem to report on their own organizations.
edit: A few downvotes, but no responses. Probably my fault for forgetting to cite my claim: http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2011/mar/04/wome...
http://www.newstatesman.com/media/2013/11/hard-evidence-ther...
Almost. This is what happens when things are as you say and you care what the newspapers say.
HN doesn't allow you to write that in bended blinking neon so I will have to settle for repeating it:
You can only be shamed by those you care about.
As it happens I spend some part of my thursdays teaching school kids to code - boys, girls and those in between. I haven't seen any press attack us for not doing enough to bring more girls in yet, but assuming it comes I don't intend to change anything.
Calling the tech industry a meritocracy is an assumption.
There are plenty of well thought out viewpoints that disagree, its probably worth reading some.
https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/04/11/meritocracy-...
https://medium.com/@jocelyngoldfein/techs-meritocracy-proble...
It has natural tendencies that asymptotically pushes it towards being a meritocracy, in the same way that markets have natural tendencies towards being rational and efficient. However the key to understanding them is understanding the ways in which they can never get to 100%.
I would love to see the correlation between people who state that the tech world is meritocracy and people who feel like they have gotten where they are purely on their own merit (the truth of it doesn't matter, just what they think). I would imagine that correlation is very, very high.
Dear tech media: I'm a programmer. I work in a small shop that serves a niche market. We employ more females than males. When I go to work, it's to do my job; to count references and check my pointer math, not to check what genitalia my coworkers, who half the time aren't even in the same office as me, are equipped with. STOP BEATING ME OVER THE HEAD WITH THIS SHIT.
Ask my former manager, who is a woman, whether she preferred to work with the male employees or the female ones. She'll tell you the office women were a constant headache and had to be constantly babied and supplicated to.
There was a time you could go on to tech websites and just read about tech. Who is profiting from the incessant beating of the misogyny drum? Not women techies who show up to work and do their damn jobs like the rest of us.
Do you know of any good tech news websites that actually cover tech?
I also think you're jumping to a vastly premature conclusion if you think fear of "tech media" is what inspired this award. I don't even buy Gina's implied assertion that it was solely because of the team's demographics. (She doesn't offer enough evidence to agree or disagree with her.)
This isn't one of those situations. This is giving the same credibility to people who are not encumbered as people who put the time in and understood the rules of the situation. This is giving a "Most Effort" prize to someone entering a vegetarian salad at a BBQ competition. It diminishes the credibility of the hackathon, cheapens the sense of accomplishment for participants when they finally win, and diminishes the value of experience in our industry which is a huge problem.
Also: if what they wrote was right, what does it matter what their gender is? Right is right, wrong is wrong.
There seems to be a strand of thought which claims that men have nothing to say on these issues. Pointing out that the author is a woman may be an attempt to head off such objections.
This depends greatly on who the commentator is. Meredith's recent piece touched on this - https://medium.com/@maradydd/when-nerds-collide-31895b01e68c
To some, you do not get to have a voice unless you comply with certain identity requirements. How right or wrong you are is irrelevant unless you have the identity that says you get to speak.
To others, such as us, this is madness and truth is no respecter of identities.
So in this case our POV is absolutely right. (Feelings do matter when you deal with humans, but that is also the only area in which they do).
Which isn't likely to happen any time soon, given how many of them work in the tech press.
Many first-timers will walk into a hackathon with just their laptop, and get stuck in the trap of setting up their environment over the whole weekend. They'll spend hours trying to download an IDE and interpreter/compiler and libraries over a poor or nonexistent internet connection. For these people, "build some static web pages" is one of the easiest ways to get them to the point where they have something they can comfortably demo in front of their peers -- and so what if it doesn't really work; they had fun and can come back next time.
If you build a thing that really works, fine. But a lot of people also walk into hackathons with pre-formed teams and 80% completed projects (idea, mocks and artwork already done; IDEs already set up; maybe even hardware already wired up) and having an emphasis on "real working code" for a time-constrained event only encourages this sort of "cheating".
Pick a project that takes longer than a weekend and do it.
Disappointed, yeah, surprised, no.
But let's not take the GamerGate approach that diversity is therefore just a conspiracy of political correctness.
It doesn't mean that diversity is a bad idea, it's just that it's harder than giving people BS awards.
If you're committed to diversity, it means you are committing to undoing disadvantages that other people have been enduring their whole life. In other words: training, in a respectful and supportive environment.
The good news for techies is that it takes relatively little time to train a talented and intelligent person from zero to productive. We're used to smart 16-year-olds sometimes coding circles around industry veterans. Surely we can do the same for other kinds of people in their 20s and 30s.
On the other hand, there is something to be said for those people actually hacking. They have experience and knowledge they don't need to gain all at once right there to make something cool. I went in to that college I mentioned with like 6-7 years of programming under my belt. Projects and clients and etc. These people barely knew that there was a command line in Windows, let alone how pointers or c strings worked. That happened to everyone, but there were a few 'hackers' like me who knew a lot coming in. All of us were guys. There were no girl 'hackers' and I don't presume to know exact reasons why but their actions basically had to do with what those women who could have been one of the 'hackers'. The judges were trying to combat, or at least show they combat that horrible situation. I hated it when girls would say they couldn't do CS/IT stuff because it was too hard for them or something. Like if it was magic or whatever. Since, I've realized its not true
Is this a coastal thing?
Anyone else in the Detroit area agree or disagree with my assessment?
She told me that 4 out of 5 that she went to were charging exorbitant amounts and teaching things like how to configure a pre-hosted Wordpress install and maybe basic HTML+CSS, and calling it programming.
She was pretty pissed about the whole ordeal, I remember her saying something like: When you compare the content of some 'women only' events in tech to the non-specific counterparts, it's condescending and borderline exploitative (ie, charging for pretty limited services)
Kind of a raw deal, especially for a beginner, I imagine.
If, on the other hand, you provided the computers, who supplied them? A local library, a school, a private company, yourself? I don't need a specific name, just a rough category.
I'm asking, because I'm interested in hosting a similar event, but for a younger crowd. I figured pure JavaScript would be the best choice because you don't need a fancy setup - it works straight in your web browser, no matter the platform. Using something like Python or Ruby (not to mention C++ or Java) would be more difficult to coordinate.
However, I really liked your line "Pass the mountain dew, brah. Git push -f, brah.", I might steal that.
When I was in high school, I was on the soccer team. We went to a tournament where we were by far the smallest school. We had our asses handed to us.
At the ending ceremony, for the first time ever, they handed out a fair play award. To us. Did we think we'd won? No, of course not. It's just a token of appreciation, a thanks for attending.
I don't see why this kind of thing is so bad. You want to encourage people to show up to your event, so you make up a reason to thank them.
As has been said in this thread multiple times, less women are in the field probably (and partially) because there is less interest. I believe a large part of that is how male-centric tech is portrayed while growing up. But once I displayed an interest in high school opportunities were thrown at me from left and right, to the point that I felt bad for guys who didn't get similar opportunities.
As expected, as a techie in college I was surrounded by mostly guys, which was fine 99% percent of the time. There were those special few who saw themselves superior and made sexist remarks. Guys who wanted to help with homework because they didn't think the female brain could figure it out. You just prove them wrong and move on.
There is a gender issue, but it is not all one sided. Talking to the ladies who let the gentlemen do their hw for them (and the swath of everything else)
[1] https://github.com/gcc-mirror/gcc/blob/master/MAINTAINERS