How does the current Lenovo Thinkpad line fares? I've seen a couple of devices recently and they look solidly built with above-average quality overall. But I didn't own any recently (my last Thinkpad was from IBM), so I cannot comment about details.
Not just bend. My 530 cracked a couple of months out of warranty, and Lenovo flat-out refused to repair it although they're obliged to do so under Australian Consumer Law. Writing a complaint to CAV is on my TODO list.
I have an X60 where some of the plastics on the case side (near the ports) have cracked off at some point in the past but that was because of some rather extensive... use, it doesn't really affect anything.
The palm rests cracked from, as far as I can tell, normal wear and tear. Certainly nothing more than I subjected my old L520 to, and that never cracked.
I disagree that the flexing is an issue. According to several computer techs the flexing is good, since it means the material is less likely to crack under stress.
I certainly feel the Thinkpads of yore had a more visually attractive material, but I've recently bought a Thinkpad x250 and frankly the quality is as good as always. Better, in fact, than the x240, in which several very bad decisions were taken.
The keyboard is fine. The problem is the single sheet trackpad. Half the time I right click it registers as a left click instead. I noticed they changed it back to the old style in the new T450 version so I'm pretty pissed I bought a T440s now. Something this expensive should not piss me off on a daily basis.
Surprisingly, I'm not hating it. Considering that the x250 is pretty small, they have less displacement than other keyboards (coming from a T410), but it's full size, the grip is good, and the feedback is better than prior versions. The Trackpoint is laid deeper and lower than the T series, but I adjusted in the day. The click buttons don't protrude as much as older versions and I still haven't adjusted.
There are minor changes in keyboard coming from the T series. Insert has been bound to Fn + End (which is alright; I've never really used it), and the upper row is now Home/End/Delete. It's a different layout but I can't say it's worse. The light from above has been changed to an illuminated keyboard, which I find just as good and pretty spiffy.
The new trackpad feels, to me, perfectly sized very usable, and a decent replacement for the trackpoint if you're just browsing the web and not typing.
I bought a refurbished machine that has the HD IPS touchscreen, and it's been nice. It responds very well to touch and is much brighter than I would ever need. Certainly the touch functionality is not something you use every day, but for some occasions it's useful, and I'm already looking at some alternative skins in some DJing software to work from there in some situations and replace an external controller with just an additional sound card.
As a person that's been lugging around a T series on his backpack practically every day for the past 10 years, the lighter weight is a very welcome addition, the processor performance is satisfying, and the screen very readable despite the compromise in space. I'm really enjoying the lower weight and I personally think it's a gorgeous machine. I think there's less visible external parts and reminds me more of the first Thinkpads, with a very minimalist blocky feel.
My only critiques are that I wish it had an additional USB port (it has 2; 3 would be really nice), that the trackpoint were laid a couple millimeters higher (I know it's impossible because there's barely any room for the screen, but a man can dream), that modern software was better with HiDPI displays, and that the aspect ratio were taller, but the tradeoffs are easily justify the lighter weight, extra comfort, and screen quality, without sacrificing the input methods, which are the real reason why I buy and have used Thinkpads for the past 18 years. I'm a strong believer that Thinkpad + Trackpoint + Vim is the most productive input method for coding man has ever invented, and no trackpad will ever be a satisfactory replacement.
> Considering that the x250 is pretty small, they have less displacement than other keyboards (coming from a T410)
The irony is that until the 40/50, X and T series had the same keyboards – an X201 and T400 used the same keyboard, as did the X220/T410/T420 and X230/T430. The form factor (which also didn't change from the X220/X230, i.e. same space available for the keyboard as on a T410) is not a justification for crippling the keyboard.
> There are minor changes in keyboard coming from the T series.
The new T series has almost the same layout, it merely retains the Insert key (while its usefulness for most users is debatable, Lenovo ties it to the Fn switch on the X250 – it's either End + ACPI hotkeys or Insert+Function keys, annoying).
I tried a Macbook Air keyboard this weekend, and I came running back to my T410.
This keyboard has the best feel in my opinion. I think I might buy one as a replacement part from China and hook it up to an Arduino and make an mini wireless keyboard.
I'm unimpressed. The X250 is a nice laptop these days, by the X201 is just vastly superior. The keyboard has an idiotic layout for no reason. They have plenty of space to fit a real keyboard, by they don't do so because management is trying to copy Apple's form over function. But it's usable enough, better then other current devices.
The buttons for the trackpoint make it usable. Unlike the previous gen that had a pointing system I literally couldn't use. As in, I'd need several attempts for most click/targeting actions.
It gets warm, even with a bunch of CPU and other power throttling settings in place. But not really hot like a Mac or HP.
So, out of current systems available? Yeah it's probably the best. But it's not great, and the tradeoffs are all wrong, providing zero end user benefit. Plus it is leaving cash on the table. I'd spend $$$ to get an X201 with a high res 16:10 and modern chips in it. I spent over $2000 on my X201 when it came out, and less than $1000 on the X250.
To be fair, none of the recent models has been as bendy as the T4x series, which I think was the last set of T-series actually built by IBM before the acquisition.
(I still have a T40p, kept running with parts from three different machines -- a wonderful machine to use, one of the very best, but that chassis was a bit of a disaster.)
A couple times carrying the W530 around in my backpack I've noticed that the corner of the keyboard will pop out of the casing and I'll have to shove it back in.
Hit and miss. The #1 problem with PC manufacturers is that each iteration of the product will regress something major. The touchpad on my T430 is shitty, but at least it doesn't randomly lose input, unlike the one in my T450s. The FHD IPS screen on the latter machine might have been acceptable in 2011. The keyboard keys on the latter machine also have a cheaper feeling plastic than on the older machine. It's still good though, the best laptop keyboard you can get.
I think he refers to the fact that any OEM installation, any installation you yourself don't do from scratch, will always be full of crap.
So like he said: Redeem the OEM Windows license, install whatever you want, maybe actually Windows, from scratch, and you should be happy.
I just bought a Carbon X1, nuked Windows and installed Ubuntu. Not sure if I can redeem the Windows-bit or not, but I'm definitely not plagued by crapware anymore.
IBM thinkpad not just has better quality, but also many good design ideas that were later overridden by Lenovo -- such as the original keyboard layout, as well as that you don't have to take apart the whole bottom board to swap a hard drive...
The amount of work that people need to put into finding a quality pc laptop is one reason Apple laptops do so well.
For pc laptops, even if you find a good model once, chances are that the 'model line' branding decisions have quite possibly shifted by the time you're up for your next laptop. So you often end up having to do it all over again.
For what it's worth, I just got a Dell M3800, and couldn't be happier with it. While I do miss the trackpoint on my Thinkpad, the trackpad on the M3800 is one of the finest I've used on any laptop ever. Only second to the Macbook trackpad and Logitech T650 (which I consider equally as good as one another). Other than that, it's light, sturdy, and the 4k screen is magnificent.
This isn't a Lenovo issue, its a larger Windows OEM issue. HP, Dell, and the rest are guilty of the same sins. When is Microsoft finally going to reign these guys in? I'd love an Apple-like experience of just booting up into a standard OS and not worrying about various faddish and profit seeking applications pre-installed on my machine. If MS wants to make Win10 the next XP, they need to control these OEM's.
Chinese acquisitions of US tech companies rarely works out. They just two very different business cultures. Sadly, Lenovo also bought Motorola's mobile division, so we can expect more of this treatment with the next batch of Motorola phones. The same way they ruined the thinkpad brand - they'll ruin the Moto brand.
You can get that with the "Signature Edition" computers available in Microsoft Stores.
But the closest MS store is an hour away from me, and normal people don't even know that they should care, let alone care enough to spend two hours driving to pick up a laptop.
"control these OEM's?" it was Microsoft who created this mess. they were executing everybody's favorite business maxim, "commoditize your complements." Microsoft is the only company providing the operating system, which runs on an army of undifferentiated PCs, where the manufacturers can only compete on price. of COURSE they're reduced to shady behavior like this. they have no other way to make money, because Microsoft thinks all the profit in the entire ecosystem should be theirs.
if they try to "reign in the OEMs," then there will be no profit left at all for them. at that point, they might as well get into some other line of products altogether: netbooks, android phones, etc
>where the manufacturers can only compete on price.
I find this hard to believe and seems to be an excuse for modifications like these (this excuse is quite common in Android). Quality of components, design, battery life/capacity, screen size/dpi, brand, reputation, support quality, etc mean a lot more to Jane Computerbuyer than a slew of Lenovo shit apps she has no idea how to use and probably never will.
>it was Microsoft who created this mess.
Actually it was the Department of Justice that created this mess.
... and yet, here we are! if there was this huge market that you are positing that exists, anxious to buy PCs and laptops based on battery life, screen quality, etc, then there would be companies building products to soak up their money. but there is not such a market, apart from a few people like you who hang out on technical message boards, not nearly numerous enough to support such a thing.
Funny how the massive iOS device market and OSX market works just fine with a single OS experience that unmodified between models, doesnt have 3rd party crapware, etc.
In fact, it works so well, its threatening the Windows monopoly. I don't know any young person without an OSX machine.
that is because apple is the only company that makes iphones, ipads, and macs. apple sells hardware, not software, like microsoft does, so "commoditize your complements" means something entirely different to apple. (it means that they are trying to drive the price of software to zero, through their own gated app stores. but that's another topic entirely.)
This is bizarre. PCs and laptops are very much differentiated on quality and specs - it's just that the margin is competed away. The only way to maintain margin is to de-commodify, either by market differentiation (brand building) or barriers to entry. Apple have done extremely well at both.
... so apparently we are in rabid agreement? i was speaking specifically about the microsoft ecosystem, not about anything capable of running a general-purpose operating system. i am myself typing this on an apple laptop. i haven't participated in the microsoft ecosystem for decades, and this is one of the reasons.
45 comments
[ 2.0 ms ] story [ 103 ms ] threadFor example, in some areas close to the keyboard you can make it bend by applying a little pressure.
On the T440p you can somehow notice the screen matrix.
https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/General-Discussion/Cracked-palm...
I have an X60 where some of the plastics on the case side (near the ports) have cracked off at some point in the past but that was because of some rather extensive... use, it doesn't really affect anything.
I certainly feel the Thinkpads of yore had a more visually attractive material, but I've recently bought a Thinkpad x250 and frankly the quality is as good as always. Better, in fact, than the x240, in which several very bad decisions were taken.
I'm still holding onto my x220 for dear life.
There are minor changes in keyboard coming from the T series. Insert has been bound to Fn + End (which is alright; I've never really used it), and the upper row is now Home/End/Delete. It's a different layout but I can't say it's worse. The light from above has been changed to an illuminated keyboard, which I find just as good and pretty spiffy.
The new trackpad feels, to me, perfectly sized very usable, and a decent replacement for the trackpoint if you're just browsing the web and not typing.
I bought a refurbished machine that has the HD IPS touchscreen, and it's been nice. It responds very well to touch and is much brighter than I would ever need. Certainly the touch functionality is not something you use every day, but for some occasions it's useful, and I'm already looking at some alternative skins in some DJing software to work from there in some situations and replace an external controller with just an additional sound card.
As a person that's been lugging around a T series on his backpack practically every day for the past 10 years, the lighter weight is a very welcome addition, the processor performance is satisfying, and the screen very readable despite the compromise in space. I'm really enjoying the lower weight and I personally think it's a gorgeous machine. I think there's less visible external parts and reminds me more of the first Thinkpads, with a very minimalist blocky feel.
My only critiques are that I wish it had an additional USB port (it has 2; 3 would be really nice), that the trackpoint were laid a couple millimeters higher (I know it's impossible because there's barely any room for the screen, but a man can dream), that modern software was better with HiDPI displays, and that the aspect ratio were taller, but the tradeoffs are easily justify the lighter weight, extra comfort, and screen quality, without sacrificing the input methods, which are the real reason why I buy and have used Thinkpads for the past 18 years. I'm a strong believer that Thinkpad + Trackpoint + Vim is the most productive input method for coding man has ever invented, and no trackpad will ever be a satisfactory replacement.
The irony is that until the 40/50, X and T series had the same keyboards – an X201 and T400 used the same keyboard, as did the X220/T410/T420 and X230/T430. The form factor (which also didn't change from the X220/X230, i.e. same space available for the keyboard as on a T410) is not a justification for crippling the keyboard.
> There are minor changes in keyboard coming from the T series.
The new T series has almost the same layout, it merely retains the Insert key (while its usefulness for most users is debatable, Lenovo ties it to the Fn switch on the X250 – it's either End + ACPI hotkeys or Insert+Function keys, annoying).
This keyboard has the best feel in my opinion. I think I might buy one as a replacement part from China and hook it up to an Arduino and make an mini wireless keyboard.
The buttons for the trackpoint make it usable. Unlike the previous gen that had a pointing system I literally couldn't use. As in, I'd need several attempts for most click/targeting actions.
It gets warm, even with a bunch of CPU and other power throttling settings in place. But not really hot like a Mac or HP.
So, out of current systems available? Yeah it's probably the best. But it's not great, and the tradeoffs are all wrong, providing zero end user benefit. Plus it is leaving cash on the table. I'd spend $$$ to get an X201 with a high res 16:10 and modern chips in it. I spent over $2000 on my X201 when it came out, and less than $1000 on the X250.
(I still have a T40p, kept running with parts from three different machines -- a wonderful machine to use, one of the very best, but that chassis was a bit of a disaster.)
And of course, it's chock full of crapeware.
So like he said: Redeem the OEM Windows license, install whatever you want, maybe actually Windows, from scratch, and you should be happy.
I just bought a Carbon X1, nuked Windows and installed Ubuntu. Not sure if I can redeem the Windows-bit or not, but I'm definitely not plagued by crapware anymore.
IBM thinkpad not just has better quality, but also many good design ideas that were later overridden by Lenovo -- such as the original keyboard layout, as well as that you don't have to take apart the whole bottom board to swap a hard drive...
http://ktgee.net/guides
For pc laptops, even if you find a good model once, chances are that the 'model line' branding decisions have quite possibly shifted by the time you're up for your next laptop. So you often end up having to do it all over again.
This is exactly it.
While I live abroad and could afford one, it doesn't offer the CPU/GPU combo I care about, so in spite of the body quality I never bought one.
Not to mention that the last OS releases quality isn't that inspiring.
Chinese acquisitions of US tech companies rarely works out. They just two very different business cultures. Sadly, Lenovo also bought Motorola's mobile division, so we can expect more of this treatment with the next batch of Motorola phones. The same way they ruined the thinkpad brand - they'll ruin the Moto brand.
But the closest MS store is an hour away from me, and normal people don't even know that they should care, let alone care enough to spend two hours driving to pick up a laptop.
Signature Edition PCs are a great idea. Microsoft should have been doing that all along.
if they try to "reign in the OEMs," then there will be no profit left at all for them. at that point, they might as well get into some other line of products altogether: netbooks, android phones, etc
I find this hard to believe and seems to be an excuse for modifications like these (this excuse is quite common in Android). Quality of components, design, battery life/capacity, screen size/dpi, brand, reputation, support quality, etc mean a lot more to Jane Computerbuyer than a slew of Lenovo shit apps she has no idea how to use and probably never will.
>it was Microsoft who created this mess.
Actually it was the Department of Justice that created this mess.
In fact, it works so well, its threatening the Windows monopoly. I don't know any young person without an OSX machine.
That's an interesting way of looking at it. "Wet streets cause rain" as I just read in a different comment.