Ask HN: Should I let someone poach me?
I work as a consultant/software engineer for a rather small (~500 employees) consulting company. Currently I am consulting/developing in a project at a large (~500.000 employees) company. Today, the manager at my project's company offered to poach me into his team for 1.5 the salary I currently get at my home company. This raised some questions for me:
- Is it realistic to demand for a 1.5 raise in my next salary negotiations, considering I am rather fine in my current company? Until yesterday, I was planing to demand a 1.25 raise at max. How aggressive can/should one be? Would it be wise to say "raise by 1.5 or I leave" if they decline at first?
- Could I demand for even more than 1.5 at the project's company, considering they currently pay ~3 times what I earn to my home company?
- Where do you think my salary would rise faster?
- What would be the best point to start off for a possible change of employment in the future, that I have been a consultant/developer in many different projects, or that I have been at a big and well-known company?
What would you do?
-- denoyse
21 comments
[ 4.2 ms ] story [ 24.0 ms ] threadWithout knowing either company, hard to say. Probably the smaller one though just because they are more likely to not have a corporate structure that will take forever to move up in.
Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Consultant = Ability to move from problem to problem quickly, ability to solve problems in any number of ways. Big Enterprise = "Proven" track record (in theory a well known company isn't hiring just anyone that walks in).
The very fact you're asking these questions means you don't necessarily want to leave, so don't put yourself in the position where you have to if your employer offers less than 1.5. If your employer is sensible any negotiation that uses the phrase "or I leave" will result in you leaving. They will pay you what they believe you are worth to them - any offer you have from someone else is largely irrelevant.
Also, check your contract and the large company's contract very carefully. There's probably a clause that says you shouldn't leave to work for a customer in your contract, and the large company shouldn't approach you with an offer in theirs. Accepting the job could be difficult, and if you leave before checking you'd end up without a job at either company.
If the OP now believes he's underpaid and wants to look for greener pastures, he should consider that he doesn't need to join the client company to find them.
[1] http://www.theiplawblog.com/2007/12/articles/trade-secrets/c...
If you're going to be doing the same work for the same people anyway, take the money and run. If you want to do something different, then do something different.
Remember how consulting works: your hourly cost rate to BigCo is easily 1.5x your take-home pay. Your client PM is doing simple math: he'd like to keep you around for the long term, and it's easy to cut out the middleman. He might even be coming out ahead: it's a win-win. (The loser is your current company.)
Because of this, it's unlikely you'd get 1.5x from your current company... because the client won't pay 2x. It never hurts to ask, but recognize the economics of the situation.
1. This is a LATERAL move 2. You are being paid at MARKET RATES in BOTH COMPANIES: the business models just differ
You are NOT being underpaid and this is NOT a foundation for negotiation.
Think about it this way. You take home $20/hr currently. Your costs to your current company (salary, benefits, taxes, overhead, etc.) are probably around $35/hr. They're billing you out at $45/hr and making a 20% margin.
Your client sees an opportunity to pay you $30/hr directly (call it $40/hr loaded with benefits, taxes, etc.) for the EXACT SAME WORK. They are saving $5/hr.
If you go back to your current company and demand a 1.5x raise... well, let's do the math. You make $30/hr. $40/hr loaded costs. So they'd have to bill you at $50/hr to make it worth their while. The client won't pay that, so the market won't bear a raise.
The consultancy may need to raise its rates or its principals may need to accept lower rates of return on their equity in order to pay market rate salaries. Or they can bill out staff with lower expertise at lower rates. Particularly if they are competing on price.
But if a consultancy is competing on price, then their also probably looking to profit from the buy out clause on their employees. Letting talent go to their clients is good for business. If the OP moves on to the client, the consultant has a relationship with someone inside. This is good [usually] when it comes to getting future work.
From the gist of your questions, I can certainly say that you're driven with the financial rewards. But do note that money is only part of the equation. There's a lot of stories abound similar to your situation where they've chosen the side of salary numbers and ended up being unhappy and downright unproductive.
If you know your value, and the value for which employees at the client company pays, then you could certainly do the math. Asking a n% increase should be commensurate to the business value your bring to the table.
The manager at the big company wants you. You want the money. Working at the big company doesn't seem so bad that you're unwilling to consider it.
Your current employer forces you to demand raises raises rather than just paying you what you're worth. This is basically an adversarial relationship and your demands only have teeth if you are willing to walk out the door.
Assuming that both companies are more or less equally acceptable as places to work, the choice is:
One thing to consider is that if you get the 50% raise at your current company, how long will it be before you resent the fact that they were underpaying you before you played hardball? My experience tells my gut that once someone has to threaten to leave in order to get a raise, everyone is usually better off if the person just takes the other job.Finally, in any large company, it is likely that a manager in a position to offer you a job has already worked through any contractual obligations in regard to hiring you away from your current firm. Such contracts typically acknowledge the possibility ways that are reasonable on both sides. But, it is important to ask the manager offering you the job, what the process is.
Good luck and congratulations on the offer if nothing else.
If the money is important enough to you that you want it, then I think you'd be best off getting it from the poaching company. They'll be glad to have you - it's why they made the offer - and they are bidding for your current/potential productivity level.
If you choose to negotiate with your current company, only do it from the standpoint that you are worth that much to them because of the revenue you bring in or because of your productivity. They don't care what someone else is willing to pay you, only you care about that.
If you choose to go to the new company, just make the decision and do it, don't give an ultimatum or anything like that... if you do that, they might give you what you want initially but there is likelihood that you will be let go in 6-12 months, or at least shoot your chances for advancement in the foot.
As far as career... having varied experience is probably good, but working in the bureaucracy of a large organization can be soul-sucking and exhausting.
Depends-- McKinsey and Accenture are considered strong consultancies known for their smart talent. But people really like to buy Brand Names. Recall the old slogan "No one ever got fired for buying IBM"? Same idea, if Big Company has strong brand, that experience is typically a CV plus.
I'm not sure what the situation with the big corp offer is but if you want to move I would use the initial offer as merely as an anchor point and ask for more (as much money that the decision to move does not feel wrong). Negotiate, point out your value.
I don't know where your salary would rise faster. Be aware that some big corps keep people tenaciously on the wage level they are at.
As per future career prospects - signaling that you are smart and get things done is always a good bet. This means that you should have a brief description of what you've achieved at your current project at the end of it. This means if you can't describe your experience as "achieved x at y which delivered value z" it's time to try to change your current assignment. If this red flag condition is not met then careerwise you could be doing worse.
A well known reputable name in a CV creates a sense of positive familiarity, no doubt about it.
It sounds to me you need to figure out what you want to do, formulate a plan how to achieve it, and observe at yearly intervals have your goals changed and is your plan working. Figuring out ones career is an empirical and personal thing - the most important thing you can do about it is to be proactive and have a plan (that probably needs adjustments at intervals).