The writing in this article is very difficult to understand.
>"At a restaurant with friends, a delicate choreography will have one person carefully select a few choice morsels from the common bowl and place them on a neighbor’s plate. It is a small, perfect gesture."
A "perfect gesture"? What does that even mean?
And this paragraph:
>"Take, for instance, the Beijing tradition of man zǒu. Man means “slowly” and zǒu means “walk,” or colloquially “walk slowly.” Man zǒu is the tender goodbye offered from every small shopkeeper I have visited in Beijing. It is usually spoken in a quiet voice, and somehow sounds so much more sincere than “Have a nice day.” Sometimes I will make the trip to my neighborhood laundry with a single shirt for cleaning, just as an excuse to hear the “man zǒu” when I leave the shop."
What is "man zǒu"? A spoken farewell? If so what is the significance of saying "walk slowly"?
From the description, I understand is something like the shopkeeper slowly walking behind you as you go out of the shop. Not sure if that's what is meant, but I've seen that in some shops in Argentina. It's like an unspoken goodbye? But here, depending on the kindness and general attitude of the shopkeeper, it can be seen as anything between polite and creepy.
It means "read the sentence again, this time from a figurative perspective." From my perspective, the whole sentence is a play on how the meal is a delicate dance, and how this act is like a perfectly executed move.
> What is "man zǒu"?
>> Man zǒu is the tender goodbye offered from every small shopkeeper I have visited in Beijing. It is usually spoken in a quiet voice, and somehow sounds so much more sincere than “Have a nice day.”
I mean it's literally right there, I'm not sure how you missed it. It sounds similar to how American English speakers would use "Take care."
I like this, but I also think the author did a good job of describing how the Chinese is much more heartfelt than the Western "take it easy". Maybe because its actually providing a recommendation instead of a vague directive.
"Take it easy" isn't particularly vague to me. Consider "it." What is "it?" Whatever it happens to be, there are many alternative ways to take it. You could take it hard, or grudgingly, or angrily. The directive is instead to take it easy.
Yes but there's no advice on how to take it easy. It's just saying to do so, which is pretty unoriginal advice. Why recommend that someone take it hard, grudgingly, or angrily? It feels less sincere because there's no personalization to it. Maybe "vague" wasn't the right word, instead I'd call it "generic".
I see "take it easy" to mean something like "try to live your life in such a way that you can still be productive/effective/whatever without stressing out about things in ways that would raise your blood pressure unnecessarily. If something is important, feeling anxious about it doesn't make you any more able to accomplish it. You can think about something to plan it; and you can think about something while you're doing it—but outside of these productive uses of your mental energy, you should never let anything weigh on, or especially linger in, your mind. This will make you live longer, which will make me happy as I won't have to see you die before I do."
Of course, most people don't really know what they mean when they say it—but their intent usually lines up with the paragraph above.
When I moved to the UK was the first time I was introduced to "how are you doing?" followed by someone walking straight past me without waiting for a reply. It took me months of replying after someone and getting annoyed at how rude they were before it sunk in that "how are you?" in the intonation commonly used, is not a question but a greeting, and that it was most certainly not an invitation to start a conversation.
Basically you can't tell without considering intonation whether these utterances are just pleasantries, or heartfelt statements and questions.
I found it very enlightening to play with intonation a few years back when talking to shop assistants. You can give a flat "how are you?" that everyone interprets as a greeting, and just keep talking. But just a slight intonation change followed by a pause, and suddenly you get near total strangers pouring their heart out to you about their day.
Same thing goes for things like "take it easy". Throw it out, and it's just a bland pleasantry. Pause and go "take it easy" and pause again while looking at someone, and it totally changes character.
I think that delivery matters much more than the actual words.
I was talking about going up to strangers unmotivated, but co-workers etc. or shop staff, or in social settings.
But even in London you'd be surprised at how friendly reactions you can get when approaching total strangers as long as you're to the point about why you're approaching and particularly makes it clear you don't want to sell anything (or collect money).
Your downfall if approaching strangers in London would be if you think you can do it slowly and casually and start with pleasantries, because perversely that has come to imply you're trying to butter people up prior to a sales pitch, whereas genuine approaches now are forced to be direct and straight to the point. That works, and gets friendly reactions.
Walking slowly is a metaphor for living a fulfilling life where you enjoy the things in front of you to the fullest.
After all, when you are walking slowly, you can enjoy the sounds of the birds, the feel of the grass and land beneath your feet, and the smell of the lilacs.
But when you rush, your mind is elsewhere, busy, concerned, away from the moment you are truly in.
Any one who wishes the former upon me is a good friend of mine.
It's funny, because every time I've heard it it was when I was leaving a restaurant; my first understanding was that the owner/waiter was wishing me to go home slowly after having eaten well so I can enjoy my meal a little bit more.
I figured it just meant "take care in each step so you don't trip and fall", because it certainly originated before well-maintained pedestrian walkways existed. "Don't slip on ice", "don't step in dung", and "don't break your hip, uncle" sound analogous to me.
Just about any article about India or China, someone will comment, I wonder if it's due to their population. If you take off your "suspicious" glasses and think about it for a minute, you will realize that not saying please and thank you does not make you socially graceless in any absolute sense. There is no "default" socially graceful behaviour. Cultures differ.
It's not about saying please and thank you. It's about actions. Chinese mainland tourists stick out like a sore thumb in Tokyo in particular. They are very loud and extremely rude in behavior. They don't seem to give a care about local customs or expectations at all. They are maximally selfish around others shoving their way in, cutting in lines, blocking walkways, ...
Example: It's hard to imagine any way in which just throwing trash in the street it's not an obviously bad thing. Sure it might be their culture to do that but it doesn't take a whole lot of logic to see it's untenable. It also doesn't take a whole lot of logic to see that always acting like you're the most important person and never caring about others is untenable.
Dropping trash in the street in parts of China is showing concern that everyone has a job, including street cleaners. The custom's changing in cities where labor costs are higher though.
"I smear feces on the walls in public restrooms. No point in paying city janitors for doing nothing! If nobody committed crimes, we'd lose all our police..."
I'll never forget my last visit to Japan, waiting in a long hour plus line to go through customs - everyone from any country I observed was well behaved and queued in the proper form, except (some) Chinese - every time a gap opened, they would budge, they would literally even go around you in line if you paused for a moment. And once at the front of the line, they'd try to jump over to another line's open counter. Shameless, blatant opportunism.
If you were generous, you might say "they just don't know any better", but I'm not generous. And if it is "just a few bad eggs" as is commonly claimed by "all cultures are precisely equal" advocates, then why don't some of their fellow righteous countrymen speak up and say something?
so, are you implying that Chinese as a people are rude and lack civility? Because that's what your "contribution" to this discussion implies. Not just a few bad eggs, but an entire 1+ billion people.
If I were generous, I might say "you just don't know any better to think critically at a higher level", but I'm not generous. I'm saying "you are a moron".
> so, are you implying that Chinese as a people are rude and lack civility? Because that's what your "contribution" to this discussion implies. Not just a few bad eggs, but an entire 1+ billion people.
No, and you know I'm not saying that. I am stating just one example of the obvious, that cultures are different - it's the topic of this thread after all, remember?
You seem to imply that all cultures are either the same, or at least "equal", down to the individual level (you have a proportionally equal chance of meeting a rude Japanese person compared to a rude Chinese/American/whatever.)
> Ancient China had tons of courtesy in social interactions, and used to consider other countries uncivilized. The lack of courtesy in Mainland China is due to the communist revolution, which promoted tough fighting mentality to break social hierarchy and order, and threw away traditional values. It's an aggressive way of promoting equality. The revolution is over since Chairman Mao left. Now that the Communist Party is the governing party, the emphasis is hierarchy and order, or in a better sounding word -- stability, so that they can stay in power forever. They try to bring back traditional values, but the revolutionary damages are hard to overcome.
Is this commenter also unable to "think critically at a higher level"? Are you of the opinion that the cultural revolutions in China had no effect on culture? When you visit different countries, do you genuinely not notice a noteworthy difference in behaviors?
As far as safety, there are 3 crimes per year per 10,000 residents. That compares with St. Louis' 800+ per 10,000 residents. I would like to think that those 3 crimes/10,000 residents in Japan were executed by tourists. No one locks their bikes. $2000 bikes just sitting around. I've never felt safer in my life. Japan is wonderful.
That fellow also seems to detect a cultural difference between countries. 250x higher crime rate in St. Louis vs Japan. $2000 unlocked bikes, and no one steals them. Is he making this stuff up? If we were to look up crime statistics by country, would 100% of the difference be only because of people not reporting crimes where the statistical rate is lower?
The levels of political correctness these days is absolutely ridiculous.
If you were generous, you might say "they just don't know any better", but I'm not generous. And if it is "just a few bad eggs" as is commonly claimed by "all cultures are precisely equal" advocates, then why don't some of their fellow righteous countrymen speak up and say something?
You're proposing that it's not "just a few bad eggs" because you are are claiming that no righteous countrymen are speaking up.
Yes, I am faulting the other Chinese people who were in fact there, and did not in any way attempt to discipline their fellow countrymen.
I would expect the same of any nationality - if you are abroad, you should be respectful of the local customs, and if any of your own are acting up, you should make an attempt to put them in line. If I saw another Canadian jumping the queue at the airport, you're damn right they would have heard a word or two from me.
Try to understand for a second why that might be. Is it because Chinese people are inherently rude? I hope you don't answer yes to that. Everything happens for a reason, and just because it violates your fragile ideals of grace and politeness doesn't mean that the behavior is rude.
In fact, I personally think it's pretty rude to characterize 1 billion people as "maximally selfish"
Yes I know that Chinese and Indians do not have a civic sense and have a resistance to follow queues. This is again not some absolute thing, but a result of their upbringing. Given enough time in the new place, they will earn its social rules. The snap judgements made in such cases do more to harm the case than help it. For example, American waitpeople and airhostesses are often rude to me just because I am Indian. Forget rude, 3/4 times at a restaurant we have to ask for a new seat, because they seat us at the worst spot (near kitchen, toilets), I suppose because "Indians don't tip well". Guess what, if you put us in the worst seat in the restaurant because we don't tip well, we won't!
In any case the comment I replied to specifically talked of social graces mentioned in the article, ie. saying please and thank you.
One thing I've noticed with oversea Chinese in South East Asia is that they tend to say thanks and please a lot more than Chinese from the mainland (At least I've noticed it for people speaking Hokkien don't have as much experience with other dialects).
I wonder if it's because they also speak English and got used to say Thank you and Please more regularly.
Ancient China had tons of courtesy in social interactions, and used to consider other countries uncivilized. The lack of courtesy in Mainland China is due to the communist revolution, which promoted tough fighting mentality to break social hierarchy and order, and threw away traditional values. It's an aggressive way of promoting equality. The revolution is over since Chairman Mao left. Now that the Communist Party is the governing party, the emphasis is hierarchy and order, or in a better sounding word -- stability, so that they can stay in power forever. They try to bring back traditional values, but the revolutionary damages are hard to overcome.
Well stated. To see "polite" culture in China, just watch some old 1930s movies. There are also some modern movies that have tried to copy "politeness" patterns of 1930s and 1940s China, such as Ang Lee's《色戒》.
That's very interesting....would you say it would have been similar to the extreme social politeness of Japanese society? I've always been very curious how despite coming from a similar geographical region that they tend to be on polar opposite ends of the politeness spectrum (yes, some stereotyping here, but let's be honest).
I have experienced few culture differences since I moved to the U.S. from China.
one is how to respond to compliment.
In China, we were told to stay humble, to lay low. So my natural response to a compliment is often denying it. When I did this here in the U.S., people seemed to think I was impolite.
It took me a while to get used to say "thank you" in this situation.
Another thing I could think of is when receiving a gift. American kids seem to open the gift right away to show excitement and appreciation. I would be rude if I don't do this. Whereas in China, I was taught "not to accept gifts too easily" to reduce financial burden for others. When accepting a gift, I should hide excitement, so that people won't see me as being greedy or valuing the material gift more than the friendship.
The third thing is working while you are sick. In China, this is appreciated, people would think this hard-working. But here, this is disliked. people think you are infecting people.
We have to contend with idiotic HR departments that force you to have a "fit to work" meeting if you're off for a single day, which contributes to presenteeism. Also, all it takes is one person to fake sickness a couple of times, and then HR implement policies that affect everyone.
Though, among the proles, I've noticed intensifying hatred for people that come in sick...but also do it ourselves.
I'm very open minded, but it is still difficult for me to adapt to the culture differences for two reasons.
The first problem is lacking feedback. Nobody would correct you, if there is a difference, until you find it by yourself too late or in a nasty way. Sometimes people's disfavor is very subtle, because they want to be polite too. You will have to sense it.
Many years ago, my cousin visited us in China. With her were her friends, a Filipino american family (I guess they were raised in the U.S.). They gave me a gift and I didn't open right away. They asked why? They didn't seem to be happy and accused me of being rude.
Another year, I visited Germany. My family has a very good German friend. She insisted to give me money and gifts as it was during the Chinese new year. But based on my culture training I refused it. She seemed to be upset, she thought our family was refusing her.
The second problem is that culture is really a habit thing. When it grows on you, it is really difficult to change. When people say "Oh, you are really good at this." The Chinese response would be "No, I'm not good at this at all!" But I would look like an idiot if I say this in the U.S. I knew it, but it really needs some mental power to correct it, because conversations happen so fast and sudden, you don't have time to think.
I spent a lot of time to change it to "Really!" and finally only recently I had learnt to respond "Thank you!"
> When people say "Oh, you are really good at this." The Chinese response would be "No, I'm not good at this at all!" But I would look like an idiot if I say this in the U.S. I knew it, but it really needs some mental power to correct it, because conversations happen so fast and sudden, you don't have time to think.
I find it amusing, as I live in Seattle, and the culture here is very much (at least with people I associate with) that if someone said "Wow, you know a lot about that!" you'd respond with "I know a little bit" or "I know a reasonable amount". It seems to be a weird cultural mash-up of the ideas of accepting the compliment and of denying the praise in the compliment.
> The first problem is lacking feedback. Nobody would correct you, if there is a difference, until you find it by yourself too late or in a nasty way.
As someone with a lot of immigrant friends and colleagues (the uni I went to had a lot of exchange students, and I now work as a contractor to a tech company with a lot of visa workers), any tips on sensitive ways to bring such things up?
> any tips on sensitive ways to bring such things up?
Sorry I don't have a good answer. I got finger pointed when I was young, they were older than me so they thought they could educate me.
But I guess eventually culture differences will diminish. Americans use chopsticks, Chinese people watch NBA & Hollywood. When the younger generation rules, there will be less misunderstanding.
US perspective here, but I've seen people work while sick if only because they couldn't afford to take sick days for whatever reason. Everything from making money to pay bills/put food on the table to being unable to afford a doctor visit so they just deal with it for as long as possible. :/
There are a lot of good books on etiquette that cover both cultural norms, courtesy and manners that would have made your life a lot easier. In fact, I like to read books on foreign etiquette before traveling to another country simply because I don't want to offend anyone.
Unfortunately, no one was going to correct you on your mistakes. Since you're not a child, people assume you know better and don't want to presume you don't just because you didn't grow up here.
> It took me a while to get used to say "thank you" in this situation.
Sort of denying it or "trying to make it less" (not sure how to say that correctly in English) is something I tend to do a lot as well. People here (in the Netherlands) are not offended at all.
I have been in US for almost 20 years now and I am still having trouble responding to "thank you". I have no trouble saying "thank you" though.
Replying "you are welcome" feels like an acknowledgement that something I did to be a great deal, and to a Chinese (brought up in Chinese culture), this is embarrassing -- not I think it is embarrassing but I always automatically feel embarrassing. So each time even though I know I should reply "you are welcome", I always glitch out and when it come out, it is nearly always "no problem". Of course it means "no problem" for me (to do it or do it again), not that there wasn't problem for you that need help with. To a Chinese, attitude comes first and I have the first need of being modest (not as a virtue, but to actually feel comfortable). On the other hand, in Chinese culture, right or wrong is often not that important, so it is ridiculous that people would actually interpret "no problem" as a denial of their saying thank you in the first place (from the fellow comment, and this is actually the first time for me to understand why would some one give me over reaction when I reply no problem).
I actually always feel embarrassed (for another reason) when I realized I didn't say "you are welcome" and meeting some surprised expressions.
This article got me thinking and I decided that I should not feel embarrassed any more. There is nothing wrong in Chinese culture and I have been spent great effort coping with western culture half of my life and I believe most people do respect cultures. I will reply "no problem" and if people feel surprised I'll explain that is merely a culture difference.
I'm a bit confused as I think "no problem" is the perfect response to "thank you" in American mores. I say it all the time.
It's a way of assuring the gift receiver that the gift didn't burden you, the gift giver. That makes everyone happy and allows the gift receiver to accept the gift without guilt. And no native speaker will think you meant, "your problem wasn't a problem after all."
If it's a major gift, then it might be more appropriate to say, "you're welcome." But for minor gifts (like telling the time or help with a coding problem) "you're welcome" is a tad smug.
In any case, you're right not to worry about it too much.
As an American, I tend to use "no problem" when the value of what I gave was much less than the utility they got out of it, such as when I already know the answer to a problem they've spent a lot of time researching -- for me, it's 30 seconds of recalling information, while for them, it's 30 minutes of time saved. So the person I helped ends up much more thankful than I am put out, and deflecting the need for any thanks is appropriate in my eyes.
I tend to use "you're welcome" when it's things like getting called at 4am to come pick up a friend whose car broke down in the middle of nowhere. There's absolutely no way there their request didn't mess up my day, just due to the timing and time commitment involved, so it seems more appropriate to take their thanks seriously.
But on the whole, I think both are accepted well enough by native Americans in both situations, and it's one of the less important details of the language to worry about.
I'm confused because, etymologically, there's no difference between the two statements. I see them as two parts of a whole, in fact: "it was no problem; you're welcome to ask again." An "any time" can also show up in there.
Except that for some favors, it's not true that "It was not problem", even if it is true that "you're welcome to ask again". In these cases, I use "you're welcome".
I've been practicing saying "you're welcome" more often, because I noticed that some people would honestly be confused, suspicious, or offended if I said "no problem" after doing something that was obviously a bother.
For example, I'm stranded at 3am and you give me a lift even though you were sleeping. If you say "No problem", since it's obviously a lie, I think that you might be mad or disappointed that I made such a request.
Same. But how about "not at all"? Sounds totally non-pretentious to my taste.
As for gifts giving - I think the top commenter meant "unwrapping gifts" upon receipt rather than "accepting" them or not accepting. Coming from xUSSR, we were also taught that it is more polite to downplay any gift received and leave unpacking for later, instead express utmost gratitude to the giver upon receipt, rather than to a quality/essence of the gift itself. It also makes it less embarassing for those who gave a very modest gift, but the recipient expresses equal gratitude to everyone (like on a birthday gift reception) not justifying it by a gift value.
PS: How China is similar to xUSSR! this must be socialist countries attitude of being more humble and downplay achievements.
If you find "no problem" to be hard to say - or perhaps you feel it is hard for your listener to hear - then you could try "my pleasure". I made this small edit to my speech a few years ago.
I recently heard a nurse say, "It's my privilege" in response to a thank-you. This felt like a more heartfelt acknowledgement of the gratitude being expressed.
One might also experiment with "It's no burden", which seems to fall somewhere between "My pleasure" and "It's my privilege".
Let's say you go out of your way helping someone, because you go out your way, it is not really a pleasure. Of course it is a pleasure and a feel of privilege when someone thanks/appreciates you. So saying "my pleasure" or "it is my privilege" is accepting the "thank you". To understand in Chinese culture, it is first need to be modest (or to feel embarrassing), therefore, "my pleasure", "it is my privilege", "you are welcome" all fails to fill the bill of being modest (either that or pretentious).
In comparison, "no problem" does not deny that I went out of my way but it is not a problem for me to do it (as long as you appreciate it).
> in China, I was taught "not to accept gifts too easily"
Turning down gifts sends a strong social signal that you don't want whatever relationship the gift implies. For example, someone might turn down a valuable romantic gift from a person they don't want to date. Or, if someone offered you an excessive gift, let's say $10,000 from someone you don't know well, you might decline it because you don't want to accept the obligation that the gift implies -- what does this person want in return? However, it is appropriate when opening the gift to say 'you shouldn't have' or 'you really didn't need to bring me a gift'.
> working while you are sick. In China, this is appreciated, people would think this hard-working. But here, this is disliked. people think you are infecting people.
This depends on your workplace. In some you'll find the attitude you describe. In others, sick days are for weak, uncommitted people and you'll hear people take pride in never having taken one.
>> working while you are sick. In China, this is appreciated, people would think this hard-working. But here, this is disliked. people think you are infecting people.
> This depends on your workplace. In some you'll find the attitude you describe. In others, sick days are for weak, uncommitted people and you'll hear people take pride in never having taken one.
yup, if you work in an office and have the flu, you need to stay the fcuk home :P
> Turning down gifts sends a strong social signal that you don't want whatever relationship the gift implies.
I believe that interpretation is incorrect.
In Chinese culture, it is important to balance social relationship, and the worst is to own someone favor. Owning some others favor means to repay the favor at some point; and you can't simply repay the equal favor later, you have to do something more significant to truly balance -- in fact, I don't think in Chinese culture, a favor can truly be repaid -- therefore, to accept a favor is truly a (lifelong) commitment. With such context, you would not want to accept a gifts easily, you would honestly would like to decline the gift (while noting down the gift givers gracious -- yes, it is all about the gesture). Also the attempt of declining downplays the favor (as the gift is not truly great favor as I could decline it).
In Chinese culture, there is a strong concept of social obligation (balance).
So Chinese do want friendship as in the intention of gift giving in a western culture, but most Chinese would rather other people owning to their favor rather than the other way around -- and Chinese do keep count -- unless the relationship is so close that there is no need to keep count any more; but then exchange gifts at such level is also absurd.
Of course when you don't want the relationship, then you absolutely don't want to accept the gifts.
PS: Actually this is how Chinese corruption works. You try hard to bribe officials with some gifts or dinner even when the official would not value your gifts at all (because he already had too much), but as long as the official accepts your gift (often because you are so sneaky that he cannot easily return your gift), then this official is obligated to help you out (often means to go out of his way). First time is always hard, but second time is much easier.
And that is why to be a Chinese official is difficult, you abide by the rule, then you become socially cold and judged down in culture; or you could be generous accepting bribes and doing favors for everyone -- you become popular, but on the other hand, you have some crimes that some day will become your downfall -- not because of law, but because of power shift (which is inevitable). Greed is just the byproduct.
The one glaring surprise in this article is that the author thinks "excuse me" in US English is used as an expression of politeness. Usually it is used in the opposite way, as an innuendo which pretends to be polite on the surface but really means "hey, you are being rude by blocking the path / taking up too much space." If you don't believe me, pay attention to how it is used when walking or standing in a crowded shop, subway platform, or sidewalk in any crowded area of a US city. Especially listen to the tone of the words. When these words are used, it usually is not with anything near a polite tone.
"Pardon me" and "sorry" on the other hand are, in my experience, used politely.
in Portuguese you have two translations for excuse me. one means sorry "desculpa", the other means get out of the way "com licença". the later when used forcing your way thru a door at the same time as somebody else is extremely rude. and that's how Portuguese speakers hear excuse me in this situations.
Personally, when I say "excuse me" on the pavement, I'm being sincere :) the space is no more mine than it is their's. But, I think all of this varies based on the culture of your immediate surroundings (for context, I live in London, UK). After all, "excuse me" could only be used ironically, if its genuine tone was apologetic (at least somewhere). I also have heard "pardon me" used interchangeably with "excuse me" in the ironic sense (usually to feign not having heard an offensive remark).
Sort of, except that the mere fact that you go through the motions of choosing polite words is itself a minor signal of respect. (Saying "move it" is obviously less respectful.)
As you say, though, it all depends on tone. Excuse me can either be respectful, or it can be an accusation that you're being rude. When it's the latter, what the speaker really means is "Excuse you!"
If someone says "excuse me" in an angry voice, it's sarcastic. If someone says "excuse me" in a soft voice, it's genuine.
Or something like that, anyhow. It's certainly possible to make it ambiguous, in which case it will simply be interpreted according to the mood of whoever hears it.
The choice of "excuse me" or "pardon me" is largely regional. I grew up with "excuse me," but switched to just "pardon" because it works in French and Spanish too.
If it is meant rudely or not is entirely based on the person's mood who said it and the vast majority of the time, the reason it is said with contempt in their voice is because the other person is ignoring social norms and being rude themselves.
Your example of standing in a crowded shop is quite apt here. The socially acceptable thing to do when you notice someone who wants to get by is to move back slightly and try to let them through. When you just stand there blocking the path without even trying even in a crowded shop, you have broken social norms which annoys people.
It can also of course be also be used rudely when someone is in a rush and is frustrated that people aren't obeying social norms fast enough, but I find that to be far more rare.
I learned it that "excuse me" and "pardon me" are both impolite, because they are commands, directing the offended party to further excuse or pardon you.
"Please pardon me" is getting better, as is "I'm so sorry," etc.
As a Brit who lived in Germany for a while, a lot of Brits and Germans will fill each other's glasses before their own when sharing wine or water. Can't say anything about Americans though.
When I'm out with friends and we order a larger bottle of beer (like chimay) or get a pitcher the person who grabs the pitcher usually pours for others before themselves. It's pretty informal though, other times we just pass the pitcher around and wait for everyone to get their drink before starting. I'm in the southeast, not sure what the manners are like for the rest of the country.
I'm Norwegian and have lived in London for 15 years now, and I can't say I've ever noticed Brits pouring their own glass before others. I think I'd have noticed, as I would have found it quite rude if people served themselves first.
Germans don't? I live next to Germany (even our language is mistaken for German a lot of times, it's pretty close) and here everyone does that. It seems weird to me that a few kilometers east people wouldn't anymore... I'm going to ask some friends from there!
I think this is more of a reflection of mainland China than Taiwan or some of the other overseas Chinese communities. Taiwan takes a lot from its Japanese colonial days. A lot of the polite "culture" also left China (to Taiwan or elsewhere) after 1949, due to the Communists winning the Civil War. The 1930s Shanghaiers of the wealthy class did pad their speech with lots of pleasantries. However, the rural people (many of whom top Communist party officials trace their ancestry) did speak a lot coarser, as is the case in America too with farmers as opposed to city slickers.
This is such an absurd response to your OP. Like a Russian saying Germans are a bit rude then a German replying, "do you know how many lives Stalin sacrificed at Stalingrad?!"
That is to say that while your statement is true it doesn't really negate the original statement.
Except that I'm not defending the Chinese communists either, nor was my intent to do that. Both are rooted in the cultural value of not valuing individuals like the West does. They are a collectivistic culture, and that behavior is in line with collectivism.
I've visited China a number of times over the last three years, and am learning Chinese. It's obvious to me that I say "thank you" way, way more than native Chinese speakers would. It's an instinct that has been ingrained in me from a very young age, that when someone gives you something (e.g., in a restaurant), says something nice to you (e.g., a teacher compliments my pronunciation), or is just generally kind, to say "thank you."
I'm (slowly but surely) realizing that this is taken as acceptable because I'm Western, but that it's a bit weird, as well. Given how important such etiquette is in the US, and how strongly my parents ingrained it in me, I can see that it'll take some time for me to undo these habits in Chinese. But until I do so (as well as improve my vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation, of course!), I'll be seen as speaking strangely.
If s/he is a really good friend, just go for the one-handed hug. Fairly safe option while less distant than a handshake. S/he's not going to drop you as a friend over that so if you are looking for something less distant, you could try that.
After tārof now this, I like how Hacker News is discussing culture. It's very beneficial to learn about other cultures. Specially in our super diverse sector.
We unfortunately (IMO) live in a world where offending someone even the slightest is considered a social crime. I think it's perfectly fine to correct people and for people to correct me. It's all about communication; stop assuming that someone who visits your country would know how to react in certain social situations. Sure, they should do their homework but that's not something that I would be offended.
I think all too often people are offended by some breach of etiquette and remain quiet about it. Unfortunately the bad feelings simmer inside and can surface in an ugly way. If someone has committed such a grievous infraction in your eyes it's best to address it right away with the individual that committed it instead of taking it out on someone else down the line.
This is too cute by half. Yeah, I suppose you can try to dissect something like this in terms of the subtleties of language and the forces they have on interpersonal interactions. But then, to do that, you'd have to be ignoring some of the huge, gaping differences between Chinese culture and Western culture: those same people who are shouting "off the car!" are probably also pushing you out of the way while they say it (welcome to China!)
In other words, it isn't just language, or even mostly language. By western standards, Chinese people are damned rude, in general. They can certainly be lovely, warm people, and there are deep cultural explanations for the behavior that are fun to explore...but still, don't get lost in meditation about it when you're walking in Beijing, or you'll get run over by a grandma who is driving her motorcycle on the sidewalk (hey...you were in the way!)
Likewise, the whole extended meditation on what shopkeepers say to you on the way out the door is...overwrought. There are a few comments in this thread that suggest that the author's translation is perhaps a bit too literal:
...which wouldn't be surprising in Mandarin, where words/sounds/symbols are overloaded, and meaning depends heavily on context.
Also, sometimes people just say things because that's what they say. Every shopkeeper in Paris will say "good journey!" to you as you walk out the door. You could write an essay on how beautifully meaningful it is that they're wishing you goodwill in your life's journey -- or you could remember that the dude who just sold you toilet paper doesn't really care. It's automatic. (Fun fact: the greeter at WalMart doesn't really care if your day is nice, either.)
This essay strikes me as someone fetishizing a culture, deeming it "mysterious", and trying to find great meaning in the self-imposed mysteries, when simpler explanations are at hand.
Ah, indeed. I knew that was the word they were saying, but I'd always, incorrectly, assumed that the jour/journée distinction derived from the same root as the English "journey".
Oops. Bad example. Thanks for pointing that out.
(EDIT: actually, looking up the English word, we borrowed it from the French journée! So I got the example right, but for entirely the wrong reasons, and in the wrong direction.)
There are so many intricacies to being polite in China. Living in China for over 12 years hasn't taught me even half of what I'd need to know. I don't think one can decide whether a society is polite or not based on one or two phrases.
Comparing what constitues politeness in China and in America is an interesting topic. In China, it is polite for younger people to greet their elders with the proper title (e.g. Grandfather Li, Second Auntie, etc., uncle) when meeting them. In America, teens will often go into people's houses without so much as a "hello". It's funny how far Chinese people will take this. Even children who can barely talk are strongly encouraged to greet their elders appropriately, and for most kids, grandfather (爷爷 yéyé), auntie (阿姨 āyí), grandmother (奶奶 nǎinai) and uncle (叔叔 shūshu) are probably among a childs first 10 words.
You're still stuck in your narrow view of politeness. The concept of politeness is not a constant, but a variable that changes throughout various cultures.
"Politeness" is not an objectively-quantifiable one-dimensional characteristic of a culture, sure. There are smaller traits that are quantifiable, though.
"Care taken around inattentive strangers", for example: the difference between assuming it's someone else's fault if they stand in the road, and assuming it's your responsibility to not hit someone standing in the road.
Or "empathy for people who don't know your customs", for another: the difference between expecting foreigners to already know how to be polite in your locale, being willing to teach foreigners local etiquette, and feeling a responsibility to learn multiple foreign cultures in order to react to each foreigner with the etiquette of their own culture, which is a truly strange feeling I've only experienced while in Japan.
I'm Chinese. The most confusing thing for me between English and Chinese is the number. English number is seperated by comma every 3 digits (thousand, million, billion)，no matter in formats like 3 billion or 100,000,000, but in Chinese, the number is seperated by 4 digits, and this happens in every format except one, printed 100,000,000 format. The printed ditgit format is affected by western world and for international convenience. When we say or write it in Chinese we use "万"(ten thousand) and "亿"(one hundred million) which are 1,0000 and 1,0000,0000 (I never see this digit format which is seperated by comma every 4 digits), so every time I see something like 123 million or 123,456,789 in English, I'll seperated it from 3 by 3 to 4 by 4, million is 1,000,000 which is 100,0000, so 123 million which is 123,000,000 will be converted into 1,2300,0000 which is 1亿2300万, in my head.
A similar confusion used to arise between the American and British meanings of "billion." An American billion (now the only version) was a thousand million. In Britain, this unit was called a "milliard", and a British billion was equal to a million million instead.
Effectively, the British were thinking in terms of a billion being "made out of" millions, to create numbers that would look intuitively like "1,000000,000000."
It _seems_ politeness is hard in North America. You have to say 'Thank You' or 'You're Welcome' ALL THE TIME, for the smallest of gestures. You have to tip everyone for fear of not offending anyone. Interacting with people is a delicate dance. Can't afford to slip up even once. I get exhausted. I enjoy being alone a lot. Aside from close friends and family I prefer the company of machines and animals.
It's "salamat" in the Philippines and "maraming salamat" for "many thanks" in English or "thank you so/very much".
I learned English at a very young age but I"m continuing to improve by enrolling myself to accent reduction classes at Preple, a company I heard from my cousin. They teach Chinese, too, which I would like to learn in the future. Right now, I'm on an easy Portuguese course at http://preply.com/en/portuguese-by-skype . Learning languages is really fun for me. Although I'm not an expert at any language other than Tagalog and a couple of other Filipino dialects, i, unlike other people, like that I know a little of several languages.
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[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 194 ms ] thread>"At a restaurant with friends, a delicate choreography will have one person carefully select a few choice morsels from the common bowl and place them on a neighbor’s plate. It is a small, perfect gesture."
A "perfect gesture"? What does that even mean?
And this paragraph:
>"Take, for instance, the Beijing tradition of man zǒu. Man means “slowly” and zǒu means “walk,” or colloquially “walk slowly.” Man zǒu is the tender goodbye offered from every small shopkeeper I have visited in Beijing. It is usually spoken in a quiet voice, and somehow sounds so much more sincere than “Have a nice day.” Sometimes I will make the trip to my neighborhood laundry with a single shirt for cleaning, just as an excuse to hear the “man zǒu” when I leave the shop."
What is "man zǒu"? A spoken farewell? If so what is the significance of saying "walk slowly"?
It means "read the sentence again, this time from a figurative perspective." From my perspective, the whole sentence is a play on how the meal is a delicate dance, and how this act is like a perfectly executed move.
> What is "man zǒu"?
>> Man zǒu is the tender goodbye offered from every small shopkeeper I have visited in Beijing. It is usually spoken in a quiet voice, and somehow sounds so much more sincere than “Have a nice day.”
I mean it's literally right there, I'm not sure how you missed it. It sounds similar to how American English speakers would use "Take care."
Of course, most people don't really know what they mean when they say it—but their intent usually lines up with the paragraph above.
When I moved to the UK was the first time I was introduced to "how are you doing?" followed by someone walking straight past me without waiting for a reply. It took me months of replying after someone and getting annoyed at how rude they were before it sunk in that "how are you?" in the intonation commonly used, is not a question but a greeting, and that it was most certainly not an invitation to start a conversation.
Basically you can't tell without considering intonation whether these utterances are just pleasantries, or heartfelt statements and questions.
I found it very enlightening to play with intonation a few years back when talking to shop assistants. You can give a flat "how are you?" that everyone interprets as a greeting, and just keep talking. But just a slight intonation change followed by a pause, and suddenly you get near total strangers pouring their heart out to you about their day.
Same thing goes for things like "take it easy". Throw it out, and it's just a bland pleasantry. Pause and go "take it easy" and pause again while looking at someone, and it totally changes character.
I think that delivery matters much more than the actual words.
But even in London you'd be surprised at how friendly reactions you can get when approaching total strangers as long as you're to the point about why you're approaching and particularly makes it clear you don't want to sell anything (or collect money).
Your downfall if approaching strangers in London would be if you think you can do it slowly and casually and start with pleasantries, because perversely that has come to imply you're trying to butter people up prior to a sales pitch, whereas genuine approaches now are forced to be direct and straight to the point. That works, and gets friendly reactions.
After all, when you are walking slowly, you can enjoy the sounds of the birds, the feel of the grass and land beneath your feet, and the smell of the lilacs.
But when you rush, your mind is elsewhere, busy, concerned, away from the moment you are truly in.
Any one who wishes the former upon me is a good friend of mine.
走 zou can mean "walk", but it's the normal way to say "leave". 慢走 is just the opposite of 快走 "get out!"
Example: It's hard to imagine any way in which just throwing trash in the street it's not an obviously bad thing. Sure it might be their culture to do that but it doesn't take a whole lot of logic to see it's untenable. It also doesn't take a whole lot of logic to see that always acting like you're the most important person and never caring about others is untenable.
Well, you might consider it an "upgrade" from the old behavior of tossing trash into people's open windows as you walked by.
You're littering to make sure people are employed? Really?
If you were generous, you might say "they just don't know any better", but I'm not generous. And if it is "just a few bad eggs" as is commonly claimed by "all cultures are precisely equal" advocates, then why don't some of their fellow righteous countrymen speak up and say something?
If I were generous, I might say "you just don't know any better to think critically at a higher level", but I'm not generous. I'm saying "you are a moron".
There we go.
No, and you know I'm not saying that. I am stating just one example of the obvious, that cultures are different - it's the topic of this thread after all, remember?
You seem to imply that all cultures are either the same, or at least "equal", down to the individual level (you have a proportionally equal chance of meeting a rude Japanese person compared to a rude Chinese/American/whatever.)
From another thread in this conversation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9712181
> Ancient China had tons of courtesy in social interactions, and used to consider other countries uncivilized. The lack of courtesy in Mainland China is due to the communist revolution, which promoted tough fighting mentality to break social hierarchy and order, and threw away traditional values. It's an aggressive way of promoting equality. The revolution is over since Chairman Mao left. Now that the Communist Party is the governing party, the emphasis is hierarchy and order, or in a better sounding word -- stability, so that they can stay in power forever. They try to bring back traditional values, but the revolutionary damages are hard to overcome.
Is this commenter also unable to "think critically at a higher level"? Are you of the opinion that the cultural revolutions in China had no effect on culture? When you visit different countries, do you genuinely not notice a noteworthy difference in behaviors?
EDIT: Just by coincidence, came across this comment in a Japanese food thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/food/comments/39qpcn/didnt_fly_firs...
As far as safety, there are 3 crimes per year per 10,000 residents. That compares with St. Louis' 800+ per 10,000 residents. I would like to think that those 3 crimes/10,000 residents in Japan were executed by tourists. No one locks their bikes. $2000 bikes just sitting around. I've never felt safer in my life. Japan is wonderful.
That fellow also seems to detect a cultural difference between countries. 250x higher crime rate in St. Louis vs Japan. $2000 unlocked bikes, and no one steals them. Is he making this stuff up? If we were to look up crime statistics by country, would 100% of the difference be only because of people not reporting crimes where the statistical rate is lower?
The levels of political correctness these days is absolutely ridiculous.
If you were generous, you might say "they just don't know any better", but I'm not generous. And if it is "just a few bad eggs" as is commonly claimed by "all cultures are precisely equal" advocates, then why don't some of their fellow righteous countrymen speak up and say something?
You're proposing that it's not "just a few bad eggs" because you are are claiming that no righteous countrymen are speaking up.
I would expect the same of any nationality - if you are abroad, you should be respectful of the local customs, and if any of your own are acting up, you should make an attempt to put them in line. If I saw another Canadian jumping the queue at the airport, you're damn right they would have heard a word or two from me.
In fact, I personally think it's pretty rude to characterize 1 billion people as "maximally selfish"
In any case the comment I replied to specifically talked of social graces mentioned in the article, ie. saying please and thank you.
you never notice the upper class tourists that blend in. the problem is they have so many of the lower class ones, nothing else matters.
one is how to respond to compliment. In China, we were told to stay humble, to lay low. So my natural response to a compliment is often denying it. When I did this here in the U.S., people seemed to think I was impolite.
It took me a while to get used to say "thank you" in this situation.
Another thing I could think of is when receiving a gift. American kids seem to open the gift right away to show excitement and appreciation. I would be rude if I don't do this. Whereas in China, I was taught "not to accept gifts too easily" to reduce financial burden for others. When accepting a gift, I should hide excitement, so that people won't see me as being greedy or valuing the material gift more than the friendship.
The third thing is working while you are sick. In China, this is appreciated, people would think this hard-working. But here, this is disliked. people think you are infecting people.
Living in Britain I see people working while sick a lot more often than in Sweden, and it really annoys me.
Do you find it hard to be open minded and understanding about these things?
Though, among the proles, I've noticed intensifying hatred for people that come in sick...but also do it ourselves.
The first problem is lacking feedback. Nobody would correct you, if there is a difference, until you find it by yourself too late or in a nasty way. Sometimes people's disfavor is very subtle, because they want to be polite too. You will have to sense it.
Many years ago, my cousin visited us in China. With her were her friends, a Filipino american family (I guess they were raised in the U.S.). They gave me a gift and I didn't open right away. They asked why? They didn't seem to be happy and accused me of being rude.
Another year, I visited Germany. My family has a very good German friend. She insisted to give me money and gifts as it was during the Chinese new year. But based on my culture training I refused it. She seemed to be upset, she thought our family was refusing her.
The second problem is that culture is really a habit thing. When it grows on you, it is really difficult to change. When people say "Oh, you are really good at this." The Chinese response would be "No, I'm not good at this at all!" But I would look like an idiot if I say this in the U.S. I knew it, but it really needs some mental power to correct it, because conversations happen so fast and sudden, you don't have time to think.
I spent a lot of time to change it to "Really!" and finally only recently I had learnt to respond "Thank you!"
I find it amusing, as I live in Seattle, and the culture here is very much (at least with people I associate with) that if someone said "Wow, you know a lot about that!" you'd respond with "I know a little bit" or "I know a reasonable amount". It seems to be a weird cultural mash-up of the ideas of accepting the compliment and of denying the praise in the compliment.
> The first problem is lacking feedback. Nobody would correct you, if there is a difference, until you find it by yourself too late or in a nasty way.
As someone with a lot of immigrant friends and colleagues (the uni I went to had a lot of exchange students, and I now work as a contractor to a tech company with a lot of visa workers), any tips on sensitive ways to bring such things up?
Sorry I don't have a good answer. I got finger pointed when I was young, they were older than me so they thought they could educate me.
But I guess eventually culture differences will diminish. Americans use chopsticks, Chinese people watch NBA & Hollywood. When the younger generation rules, there will be less misunderstanding.
Unfortunately, no one was going to correct you on your mistakes. Since you're not a child, people assume you know better and don't want to presume you don't just because you didn't grow up here.
Sort of denying it or "trying to make it less" (not sure how to say that correctly in English) is something I tend to do a lot as well. People here (in the Netherlands) are not offended at all.
Replying "you are welcome" feels like an acknowledgement that something I did to be a great deal, and to a Chinese (brought up in Chinese culture), this is embarrassing -- not I think it is embarrassing but I always automatically feel embarrassing. So each time even though I know I should reply "you are welcome", I always glitch out and when it come out, it is nearly always "no problem". Of course it means "no problem" for me (to do it or do it again), not that there wasn't problem for you that need help with. To a Chinese, attitude comes first and I have the first need of being modest (not as a virtue, but to actually feel comfortable). On the other hand, in Chinese culture, right or wrong is often not that important, so it is ridiculous that people would actually interpret "no problem" as a denial of their saying thank you in the first place (from the fellow comment, and this is actually the first time for me to understand why would some one give me over reaction when I reply no problem).
I actually always feel embarrassed (for another reason) when I realized I didn't say "you are welcome" and meeting some surprised expressions.
This article got me thinking and I decided that I should not feel embarrassed any more. There is nothing wrong in Chinese culture and I have been spent great effort coping with western culture half of my life and I believe most people do respect cultures. I will reply "no problem" and if people feel surprised I'll explain that is merely a culture difference.
It's a way of assuring the gift receiver that the gift didn't burden you, the gift giver. That makes everyone happy and allows the gift receiver to accept the gift without guilt. And no native speaker will think you meant, "your problem wasn't a problem after all."
If it's a major gift, then it might be more appropriate to say, "you're welcome." But for minor gifts (like telling the time or help with a coding problem) "you're welcome" is a tad smug.
In any case, you're right not to worry about it too much.
I tend to use "you're welcome" when it's things like getting called at 4am to come pick up a friend whose car broke down in the middle of nowhere. There's absolutely no way there their request didn't mess up my day, just due to the timing and time commitment involved, so it seems more appropriate to take their thanks seriously.
But on the whole, I think both are accepted well enough by native Americans in both situations, and it's one of the less important details of the language to worry about.
In the others, I use "no problem".
For example, I'm stranded at 3am and you give me a lift even though you were sleeping. If you say "No problem", since it's obviously a lie, I think that you might be mad or disappointed that I made such a request.
As for gifts giving - I think the top commenter meant "unwrapping gifts" upon receipt rather than "accepting" them or not accepting. Coming from xUSSR, we were also taught that it is more polite to downplay any gift received and leave unpacking for later, instead express utmost gratitude to the giver upon receipt, rather than to a quality/essence of the gift itself. It also makes it less embarassing for those who gave a very modest gift, but the recipient expresses equal gratitude to everyone (like on a birthday gift reception) not justifying it by a gift value.
PS: How China is similar to xUSSR! this must be socialist countries attitude of being more humble and downplay achievements.
I recently heard a nurse say, "It's my privilege" in response to a thank-you. This felt like a more heartfelt acknowledgement of the gratitude being expressed.
One might also experiment with "It's no burden", which seems to fall somewhere between "My pleasure" and "It's my privilege".
In comparison, "no problem" does not deny that I went out of my way but it is not a problem for me to do it (as long as you appreciate it).
> in China, I was taught "not to accept gifts too easily"
Turning down gifts sends a strong social signal that you don't want whatever relationship the gift implies. For example, someone might turn down a valuable romantic gift from a person they don't want to date. Or, if someone offered you an excessive gift, let's say $10,000 from someone you don't know well, you might decline it because you don't want to accept the obligation that the gift implies -- what does this person want in return? However, it is appropriate when opening the gift to say 'you shouldn't have' or 'you really didn't need to bring me a gift'.
> working while you are sick. In China, this is appreciated, people would think this hard-working. But here, this is disliked. people think you are infecting people.
This depends on your workplace. In some you'll find the attitude you describe. In others, sick days are for weak, uncommitted people and you'll hear people take pride in never having taken one.
> This depends on your workplace. In some you'll find the attitude you describe. In others, sick days are for weak, uncommitted people and you'll hear people take pride in never having taken one.
yup, if you work in an office and have the flu, you need to stay the fcuk home :P
I believe that interpretation is incorrect.
In Chinese culture, it is important to balance social relationship, and the worst is to own someone favor. Owning some others favor means to repay the favor at some point; and you can't simply repay the equal favor later, you have to do something more significant to truly balance -- in fact, I don't think in Chinese culture, a favor can truly be repaid -- therefore, to accept a favor is truly a (lifelong) commitment. With such context, you would not want to accept a gifts easily, you would honestly would like to decline the gift (while noting down the gift givers gracious -- yes, it is all about the gesture). Also the attempt of declining downplays the favor (as the gift is not truly great favor as I could decline it).
In Chinese culture, there is a strong concept of social obligation (balance).
So Chinese do want friendship as in the intention of gift giving in a western culture, but most Chinese would rather other people owning to their favor rather than the other way around -- and Chinese do keep count -- unless the relationship is so close that there is no need to keep count any more; but then exchange gifts at such level is also absurd.
Of course when you don't want the relationship, then you absolutely don't want to accept the gifts.
PS: Actually this is how Chinese corruption works. You try hard to bribe officials with some gifts or dinner even when the official would not value your gifts at all (because he already had too much), but as long as the official accepts your gift (often because you are so sneaky that he cannot easily return your gift), then this official is obligated to help you out (often means to go out of his way). First time is always hard, but second time is much easier.
And that is why to be a Chinese official is difficult, you abide by the rule, then you become socially cold and judged down in culture; or you could be generous accepting bribes and doing favors for everyone -- you become popular, but on the other hand, you have some crimes that some day will become your downfall -- not because of law, but because of power shift (which is inevitable). Greed is just the byproduct.
"Pardon me" and "sorry" on the other hand are, in my experience, used politely.
Or something like that, anyhow. It's certainly possible to make it ambiguous, in which case it will simply be interpreted according to the mood of whoever hears it.
If it is meant rudely or not is entirely based on the person's mood who said it and the vast majority of the time, the reason it is said with contempt in their voice is because the other person is ignoring social norms and being rude themselves.
Your example of standing in a crowded shop is quite apt here. The socially acceptable thing to do when you notice someone who wants to get by is to move back slightly and try to let them through. When you just stand there blocking the path without even trying even in a crowded shop, you have broken social norms which annoys people.
It can also of course be also be used rudely when someone is in a rush and is frustrated that people aren't obeying social norms fast enough, but I find that to be far more rare.
"Please pardon me" is getting better, as is "I'm so sorry," etc.
this happens in almost every culture but Americans, British and Germans.
Koreans even have extra rules (it must be the older person at the table).
my Californian American friends when in Brazil said he was very disturbed by our "communist" approach to beer
That is to say that while your statement is true it doesn't really negate the original statement.
I'm (slowly but surely) realizing that this is taken as acceptable because I'm Western, but that it's a bit weird, as well. Given how important such etiquette is in the US, and how strongly my parents ingrained it in me, I can see that it'll take some time for me to undo these habits in Chinese. But until I do so (as well as improve my vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation, of course!), I'll be seen as speaking strangely.
In other words, it isn't just language, or even mostly language. By western standards, Chinese people are damned rude, in general. They can certainly be lovely, warm people, and there are deep cultural explanations for the behavior that are fun to explore...but still, don't get lost in meditation about it when you're walking in Beijing, or you'll get run over by a grandma who is driving her motorcycle on the sidewalk (hey...you were in the way!)
Likewise, the whole extended meditation on what shopkeepers say to you on the way out the door is...overwrought. There are a few comments in this thread that suggest that the author's translation is perhaps a bit too literal:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9712050 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9712559
...which wouldn't be surprising in Mandarin, where words/sounds/symbols are overloaded, and meaning depends heavily on context.
Also, sometimes people just say things because that's what they say. Every shopkeeper in Paris will say "good journey!" to you as you walk out the door. You could write an essay on how beautifully meaningful it is that they're wishing you goodwill in your life's journey -- or you could remember that the dude who just sold you toilet paper doesn't really care. It's automatic. (Fun fact: the greeter at WalMart doesn't really care if your day is nice, either.)
This essay strikes me as someone fetishizing a culture, deeming it "mysterious", and trying to find great meaning in the self-imposed mysteries, when simpler explanations are at hand.
Actually, it's bonne journée, which means "good day"...
Oops. Bad example. Thanks for pointing that out.
(EDIT: actually, looking up the English word, we borrowed it from the French journée! So I got the example right, but for entirely the wrong reasons, and in the wrong direction.)
As a states speaker of english i have always suffered when to use the familiar 'you'. French: Vous/Tu, German: Sie/Du, Russian: вы/ты ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%E2%80%93V_distinction
The most amusing guidance i ever received was from a French postdoc: "So, once you've slept with someone, -then- you can use 'the tu'"
Comparing what constitues politeness in China and in America is an interesting topic. In China, it is polite for younger people to greet their elders with the proper title (e.g. Grandfather Li, Second Auntie, etc., uncle) when meeting them. In America, teens will often go into people's houses without so much as a "hello". It's funny how far Chinese people will take this. Even children who can barely talk are strongly encouraged to greet their elders appropriately, and for most kids, grandfather (爷爷 yéyé), auntie (阿姨 āyí), grandmother (奶奶 nǎinai) and uncle (叔叔 shūshu) are probably among a childs first 10 words.
"Care taken around inattentive strangers", for example: the difference between assuming it's someone else's fault if they stand in the road, and assuming it's your responsibility to not hit someone standing in the road.
Or "empathy for people who don't know your customs", for another: the difference between expecting foreigners to already know how to be polite in your locale, being willing to teach foreigners local etiquette, and feeling a responsibility to learn multiple foreign cultures in order to react to each foreigner with the etiquette of their own culture, which is a truly strange feeling I've only experienced while in Japan.
Effectively, the British were thinking in terms of a billion being "made out of" millions, to create numbers that would look intuitively like "1,000000,000000."