Ask HN: I'm falling in love with my already involved cofounder,what should I do?
I'm in a really crazy situation, I co-founded and I'm working at a startup with one of my best friends and his girlfriend.
During the last few months I'm completely falling in love with her and she's too (my friend obviously doesn't know)
I deeply care about everything: the startup, my friend and her, and this is like a bomb which will cause many break ups once it'll explode.
Has anyone of you been in this situation? How did it go and what do you suggest to do?
90 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 55.5 ms ] threadBusiness is business, and that should be your primary concern at this point. A startup can have an interesting dynamic, with very close working relationships, stress, etc... It can cause people to rely on each other in ways they wouldn't normally have to do and thus produce feelings that aren't necessarily mature.
There's really no "good" way to deal with it. The best way would be handled it after the business is up and going, but it is still likely not be be a good resolution. Someone will be hurt.
Then there's the quite unlikely event that everyone is sufficiently open-minded and a nice polygamous relationship will develop..... this would be the most unlikely option.
But you can continue your relationship, it's not problem anymore.
I hope love somehow can motivate you. Good Luck!
If you or her are the technical side of things, then just quietly disable his access to the organizations Github and repositories. You might want to reincorporate as well, leaving him off the new papers. "An oversight!" you'll say. Then you promise to get it fixed "As soon as you aren't so busy." Change the company's name while you're at it. Or just recreate the entire business under a new entity.
As far as the girl is concerned, let her be the one to break the news after she's cleared out the apartment, you've moved into different offices (or workspaces) and all email accounts/phones/etc have been locked down with new passwords. Or, just don't break the news at all. Your choice. Same outcome. Bewildered vs. Angry. No sweat off your back.
Just pretend the other guy never existed and don't return any calls or acknowledge him every having been someone you've known.
..a few years later
He shows up at your offices just after you've IPO'd and you've become a paper billionaire. He's got the Winklevoss Twins with him and he smacks you in the face just before serving you with papers.
..a few years after that..
You're the CEO of the largest social network on the planet and people across the world turn to you and shower you with accolades. The old boyfriend was just a several hundred million dollar blip on the screen. The girl, still with the company but not with you, has since moved on to a younger model and you've gone bald and your neckbeard is streaked with grey. You spend a lot of time on 4chan. More than you used to. You'll think wearing hoodies maintains your coolness and connection with the team.
OR..
You could just put the feelings aside and run your company. If the girl wants to end it with homeboy, then leave that between the two of them. Your involvement in things need not be disclosed. Likely he'll quit in disgust or depression or he's actually happy about it because he's been looking for a girl that isn't quite so easily going to jump ship for his cofounder. If they actually break up, and if he quits, then you can get things going with your little superstar. If they break up and he's a pro and doesn't quit, then you'll have to ask yourself, is she worth it? If she is, then ditch the company, marry the girl and then figure something else out. Many people might disagree, but true love is worth more than a dozen successful startups. I married my cofounder and I'd give up the business in a second if I were in a position where I had to choose. But, you gotta know it in your heart. I've been with my wife 4 years now and it still feels like the first day.
Good luck. Oh and post pics (of the girl..) We need to see what this startup-wrecker looks like!
I see too many people treating startups and exec positions like regular labor jobs, as if they are just entitled to be there because they know what's up. It's a real privilege to be a part of someone's idea to that level of intimacy, and what a shame to let something so petty as lust to destroy that intimacy and opportunity.
I don't know you, your business, or either one of them... but I think you need to take a step back without the love goggles on and ask yourself if this isn't going to be massively regrettable mistake in hindsight.
It's great that you've recognized how bad the situation can go but... why would you carry on? There are plenty of other people out there and while I'm sure she seems special you can't just go getting in bed with every employee/cofounder/friend's significant other you're ever attracted to.
There is no trust in the co-founder relationship now and you've made bad decisions for the company. I do no think you can successfully carry on especially if this is a small company.
As for your friendship, I can only wish you luck. I don't believe I could accept this kind of betrayal but everyone is different.
Anyway, I don't buy it from you that you "deeply care" about all three of them (startup, friend and her). On a second thought, I don't buy any of this: whoever finds himself in such a situation and asks for advice at HN must be a f* moron. And deserves to be miserable.
So I guess you just made it all up.
The moral thing to do is for both of you to give up your stakes in the startup. Let him find better partners. You guys obviously don't deserve to be on the team.
In the end, you and the girl will have each other, and he will be single, but in full control of the startup. It's more than fair, given the fact that your friend didn't do anything, and you two betrayed his trust.
Parents (a.k.a. grown-ups) should not just be larger/heavier/grayer kids.
1. Who is betraying who
2. Who should take ownership of the startup in case of a breakup
The OP is asking for any relevant experience and advice, not for someone to irrationally moralize.
Since the situation is intrinsically related to morality. My advice is therefore also related to morality. Just because the OP doesn't specifically ask for a moral answer doesn't preclude me addressing morality.
Betrayal and ownership are subjective in this context. However, there is still a majority consensus that can be arrived at based on the information given. Many will come to a single conclusion on who is the betrayer and who morally deserves ownership. When a person thoughtlessly steals his best friends girlfriend, what do you think the majority consensus will be?
1. What the OP should do.
2. What the majority consensus is
3. How you subjectively feel about the majority consensus.
4. How the OP subjectively feels about the majority consensus.
In this case, there was not sufficient information given to really understand what the majority consensus is. Additionally, just because something is the consensus, doesn't mean it is necessarily the best course of action individually. Facing condemnation is a consequence, not physical law. The initial response took no time to give an appropriate course of action, and drew on your subjective heated feelings attached to your interpretation of the consensus.
There is no need to do a scientific analysis to derive majority consensus. Intuition is enough to know what the majority thinks about stealing your best friends girlfriend. Whether or not the majority consensus is the "best" course of action for the individual is not what I addressed. I specifically stated that my advice was from a moral standpoint, whether or not the OP considers that as "best" depends on whether or not he is a moral man.
The initial response gave a appropriate course of action from a moral standpoint. It drew from a combination of sources all of which can be potentially described as subjective, moral, rational, emotional, heated yet still valid.
Is forcing yourself on another person immoral? Yes. Is intentionally manipulating someone's relationship for personal gain immoral? Yes. Are two people recognizing they would be happier together, and leaving a previous relationship immoral? That doesn't seem wrong.
You are the one coloring this scenario as "stealing". There is no information here about who these people are, what their relationships are like. You are projecting onto this situation and constructing this strawman, and in turn moralizing about the strawman. That isn't reality.
All morality is subjective and thus so are my views. My views are still valid according to majority consensus DESPITE being subjective. Intuition has shortcomings but not when it comes to something obvious.
>Is forcing yourself on another person immoral? Yes. Is intentionally manipulating someone's relationship for personal gain immoral? Yes. Are two people recognizing they would be happier together, and leaving a previous relationship immoral? That doesn't seem wrong.
The last statement isn't immoral, while the first two are. However I am not addressing any of those things. What I am addressing is this: Allowing yourself to engage in a relationship with and/or develop feelings for your best friends, girlfriend. This is wrong under all counts.
>You are the one coloring this scenario as "stealing". There is no information here about who these people are, what their relationships are like. You are projecting onto this situation and constructing this strawman, and in turn moralizing about the strawman. That isn't reality.
Perhaps "stealing" is an inappropriate word as we are talking about things that are fundamentally impossible to steal. Betrayal is a better word and it is exactly the scenario the OP describes.
If we asked said betrayed founder whether or not he thinks it's betrayal. His answer will be yes. Then if we ask the majority for consensus. The answer will be yes, again.
It's also really clear that what the consensus may be here would vary a ton by the actual situation: 1. Was the original relationship happy? Would the consensus be against this if it were an abusive relationship? 2. Was it just a casual girlfriend, or were they engaged? 3. Was the OP intentionally trying to seduce the girl, or did it just happen that they recognized it was a better pairing?
The reality is the consensus WILL differ based on the situation. There are a ton of shades here, but you fixated on the idea of "betrayal", as if all things with this pattern were uniformly bad. That's clearly not true, and there is simply not enough data for you to overfit and then moralize.
That being said... consensus will differ based on the situation, but based on the information given the consensus is roughly the same: Don't betray your best friend. There are very few contexts where having an affair with your best friends girlfriend will be justifiably moral. Let me address some of the examples you gave:
The nature and context of the relationship between the boyfriend and the girlfriend itself is irrelevant and NONE of the OPs business. Although an abusive relationship justifies intervention, an unhappy relationship DOES NOT JUSTIFY AN AFFAIR. Intuitively, it is also highly Unlikely that the relationship is abusive. Make no mistake, anytime you engage in an affair with your best friends girlfriend it is most likely an act of utter betrayal.
If the OP was not intentionally seducing the girl but developed feelings naturally, it is the OPs' own business. It's not his fault he developed those feelings but it will be his fault if he acts on those feelings. He is now torn between his attraction to this woman and his guilt for betraying his friend hence his decision to query people on hackernews. We all have dark desires, but the desire itself does not justify the action.
I fixate on the affair itself and how the act of carrying out said affair is an act of betrayal. The situation and context of the action is not uniformly immoral and I can definitely empathize with the OP. However, despite all of this... you are still an ass hole if you have an affair with your best friends girlfriend. Most people can agree with this, except you.
I can't speak for you but it may be possible that your empathy for his situation is clouding your judgement.
You are right the majority consensus is betraying your buddy is bad. But do you see how without details, it's not possible to give actionable and helpful advice? You are parroting an abstraction that isn't necessarily impactful advice. Certainly most people already know this, and yet this sort of situation is not uncommon. Maybe this advice isn't producing meaningful results? The fact is you don't know, because you don't have the relevant experience.
That's the first part of your advice. The second part is about deciding company ownership, and that's even more irrational, it doesn't really follow or is related to this relationship.
You realize this entire thread is giving advice based off of the SAME details? How can it "not be possible" to give advice? Also I hope you realize that the OP is ASKING for advice?
>You are parroting an abstraction that isn't necessarily impactful advice. Certainly most people already know this, and yet this sort of situation is not uncommon.
Take a look at the post rank. Hackernews lifts up posts based on how recent it is, then it orders by karma. I'm number 5 on this entire thread. Here you make an assumption based on lack of facts. The fact that I am number 5 is literally quantitative proof I have a huge consensus. If I have a consensus it means people do NOT agree that I am "parroting an abstraction that isn't necessarily impactful advice"
>The fact is you don't know, because you don't have the relevant experience.
You instruct me not to speak for you, which I CLEARLY did not. Yet you do the exact same thing here? This is a hypocritical statement. How DO YOU KNOW I don't have the relevant experience? You just pulled that fact out of thin air; and in doing so you are parroting an abstraction that isn't necessarily impactful advice. Certainly most people already know this, and yet this sort of situation is not uncommon.
>That's the first part of your advice. The second part is about deciding company ownership, and that's even more irrational, it doesn't really follow or is related to this relationship.
The emotional aspects of the affair will bleed into the business situation, that's a given; it would be irrational to suggest it "doesn't really follow or is related to this relationship"
What your saying is like saying we can't put rapists in prison because the prison cell has nothing to do the with rape. If betraying your friend is a immoral, I am suggesting a moral punishment that will prevent further harm to the victim both from an emotional standpoint and financial. If the OP doesn't take my advice he would be harming his friend EVEN further by causing the team-up to become toxic or muscling his friend out. I am suggesting the most moral, least damaging option, which is utterly and completely rational.
You are so tunneled into the idea that betrayal is bad, that you are missing how the business is an entirely different entity. There are employees, customers, and investors all potentially affected by this outcome. In the case of a breakup, there is potentially a greater moral obligation to create the best result for the other parties, than just fixate on the betrayal of the victim.
Not to mention your idea of this requiring moral punishment is not something that would draw consensus on HN, or in general. That is your fantasy, not reality.
Number 5/30 is around the top 15%. Consensus is not required for effective results. I never claimed such a thing, so why is this your point? Consensus is required for morality. Because morality is subjective it is impossible to conclude whether something is truly moral or immoral. Two people with different morals will have incongruent notions on good and evil. Thus for a concrete answer we turn to majority consensus. This is the entire reason why I brought it up. In short, consensus verifies that my advice is effectively moral.
>You are so tunneled into the idea that betrayal is bad, that you are missing how the business is an entirely different entity. There are employees, customers, and investors all potentially affected by this outcome. In the case of a breakup, there is potentially a greater moral obligation to create the best result for the other parties, than just fixate on the betrayal of the victim.
I am tunneled into the idea that betrayal is bad. It usually is, and this case does not deviate from the usual scenario. The business IS a different entity with separate moral obligations. These obligations are may intersect and be in conflict but that's not what I'm addressing. I'm addressing the betrayal not the complexities of life. These things are a given and it will be the OPs choice whether he wants to be moral to his friends, business partners or both. I apologize for not having the time to write a 200 page essay about the details on how he should handle every single separate moral obligation that could potentially be compromised by such a large decision.
>Not to mention your idea of this requiring moral punishment is not something that would draw consensus on HN, or in general. That is your fantasy, not reality.
When did I say he requires moral punishment. I'm suggesting a moral action. The consensus and I repeat again is not on some stupid requirement. People voted me up because they agree with the morality of the suggestion. If he takes my suggestion, the action will be moral in the eyes of majority consensus. I have no scientific evidence backing that claim up, but my intuition aka common sense tells me it is true.
The question is really what constitutes good advice. I suppose it turns out good advice also varies to what is being sought, and why. Maybe someone wants a better answer, maybe reassurance, maybe validation. With more data, we can provide a more objective assessment of the consequences of different actions. Of course, unfortunately, we are not provided any of that here. You can certainly offer your subjective preference to take the moral/consensus action as advice. This advice, as we discussed, is not necessarily effective, and perhaps already known. If what is being sought is objective advice, in that dimension, with only minimal information, the best thing to offer is relevant experience.
So to prevent people from wasting their time; Maybe you should be less offensive. That's my advice to you. You can take that advice or you can go to hell. That's all I have to say about this topic. I refuse to continue it any further.
People are free to choose how to use their own time.
She's not property that belongs to someone.
She's presumably an adult who can make her own choices.
So lets make the logical leap here, which usage of the word "stealing" am I referring to? "Theft" or "seduction/betrayal"? What do you think? If it's too challenging to figure out I'll just tell you the answer: "Theft." I am literally suggesting that we call the police because a burglar has stolen another persons' girlfriend.
Also: adults are just kids with money.
I was pointing out your sexist attitudes and the mistakes that you make as a result of your ignorance. You think of her as an object to be traded, not as a person with violition. That caused your chauvanistic framing in your response.
If you spend a lot of time with decent people, its going to happen that you form "bonds". Just take a look at this http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/fashion/anger-management-w...
Under NO circumstances can you act on this, not now not when it is over between them. To be frank, you don't want to be involved with the person who is going to cut and run (her) and you don't want to be breaking up that relationship.
What is more alarming is how you are building a business with a couple. Is everything a three way split? Are you 50/50 with one of them and the other works there. There are so many ways this could turn toxic, you need to have a good long think about "how can this end badly" just from a business perspective.
It may make them a bad boyfriend or girlfriend, or a bad person if they act on these feelings, but calling someone a whore for this is ridiculous.
I'd be willing to bet, if you've ever been in a relationship, that you've also been attracted to other people while also in that relationship.
I'm just trying to get to the bottom of how you define the word whore and who you apply it to, and when.
I will assume that EugeneOZ is male, and has decided that this rule only applies to females, so your logic will fall on deaf ears.
I will always challenge people to think hard about their own generalizations, just like I challenge myself.
If you are OK with calling people whores based on a contrived set of rules that you find important, that's your decision.
It sounds like it's too late for that.
You should start preparing to shut down your company and find something new to work on.
What are your options really:
1. Friend finds out, company will suffer
2. You tell friend, company will suffer
3. You keep it a secret, company will suffer
Even if your friend peaces out, and it's just you and your new girlfriend, you can't really believe that this will end up a great success, can you?