Ask HN: How did you deal with depression?
I am starting to get a little bit hopeless on this one. Once I had passions and stuff I wanted to do, I learnt enough JS to build a small app that has proven to be incredibly useful for my family. Then came university and almost all my passions have gone, I am a good student but as of lately I have been struggling with the courses I liked in the past.
Nothing excited me anymore, and not that I am sad. I still can crack a joke I still can smile but nothing seems to make me happy anymore. I think I might have depression. I play games and procrastinate all day and it doesn't make me feel any good it is just a getaway.
Sadly I live in a 3rd world country, where mental illness is not an illness. I can get little help from people. Our healthcare system simply doesn't work at all. So HN crowd, how do you deal with these feelings?
94 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 129 ms ] threadLook for easiest project you can do and steps you can do to make that project work once that's done look for your next project. These small projects build your stairs / steps to rise above dark cloud and see the daylight once again :)
(Via the "exercise out of depression" subreddit: https://m.reddit.com/r/EOOD/ )
You should probably not recommend exercise as a treatment for depression.
Of course, exercise is important and everyone should be exercising; and it might help with "resiliance".
http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depre...
> When only high-quality trials were included, exercise had only a small effect on mood that was not statistically significant.
That's what the link you give says...
> You should probably not recommend exercise as a treatment for depression.
But it doesn't say that.
It does say "When compared to psychological or pharmacological therapies, exercise appears to be no more effective, though this conclusion is based on a few small trials.", in which case, can anything be recommended?
The NHS still recommends exercise for treating depression, at least in some cases: http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/stress-anxiety-depression/pages... & http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Depression/Pages/Treatment.aspx
Chin up, OP.
When I dropped caffeine and alcohol my anxiety went away. When I exercised my depression went away.
I tried a lot of things, but it ended up figuring out that I wasn't eating well or working out.
Now I do crossfit. I know, I know. It's a cult blah blah. But go try it. You need to be exercising every day to get all that endorphin goodness and plus, you meet a lot of fun people at crossfit. The community keeps me coming back. I don't get that biking (which I love) so I don't do it as much as crossfit. And I hate running. The key is to keep doing it, and that social component works magic. If you can work out at a home gym every day - good for you - but I lose interest and stop, then I get fat and lazy and depressed again.
As for food, I'm not a fan of cooking. But I found paleo then keto. And I avoid all the stuff you're told to eat. "healthy" grains, for example. I don't drink coke. Basically avoid all sugar. I'm basically paleo to paleo-keto end of the spectrum.
I really didn't think it would work but there it is.
i was in bed with a rage-depression ten times worse than a normal bout. i couldn't work for three days. i can't describe my thoughts because they are still so embarrassing. on the forth day, i figured out, well, the whole time i was depressed i thought the 'trigger' was a text from a friend. i re-read the text. it didn't even say what i thought it said.
the next day i had another coffee followed immediately by a panic attack. then i put it together and tossed the coffee. i stopped all caffeine, which for me meant no chocolate, for two weeks. i was dieing for some chocolate. so i had some with the kids on a sunday. two days later i was depressed and on a very short fuse.
now i've gone about two months with no chocolate. i sleep much better. i don't snap at people. i don't get angry. in a sense, i miss the highs very much but not enough to want to go back. i've just accepted that my brain doesn't react to caffeine like most people.
I was a neurology professor at a children's hospital in my previous job, and there is a ton of research being done studying the neurological effects of a low-carb diet, and they are, across the board, incredible. A common treatment for kids with epilepsy is the keto diet, so we had a lot of research and expertise in this area. Half of the department was on the diet, and I have been for close to two years now. I will never stop it. My wife and kids as well (though the kids are more paleo, since they have closer to 75-100 g carbs/day)
I've gotten really into running and enjoy the high, but right now I have an (unrelated) injury and can't run and I feel like I'm going stir crazy :(
Perhaps you could try doing something entirely different every once in a while?
It's difficult to quit playing games and procrastinate even when someone's not depressed...
Meeting new people and finding a project seems a like good thing, at least it worked for me. You should also try and going out for like walking, biking, or whatever.
And you should avoid medicine, alcohol or drugs.
Rest of your advice is sound though.
Some suggestions that helped me and might work for you:
- See whether there is anything in your life that might be causing the burnout/depression. Do you have any emotional issues in your life (i.e. something in your life causing anger/resentment)? Do you have excessive stress/responsibilities? Are you doing what you really want to do with your life?
- Do more enjoyable, motivating, goal-oriented activities, both physical and mental.
- Get sufficient sleep.
- Give up alcohol and caffeine, as well as any other psychoactive substances.
It was the best thing I ever did. The world opened up for me. I was able to make a lot of changes that were very healthy in my life. I finely had outside interests other than work and sleep. It was like night and day.
* Do anything you need to find back your cognitive strength. You will be less intelligent while your brain chemistry is broken. That shouldn't drag you down because it's absolutely normal and natural, but it's frightening if you are a student and programmer, and used to measuring your self-worth in how well you can concentrate.
* Sleep deprivation helps supress depression for a day. Might help you get back into gear every now and then.
* St John's Wort is worth giving a try. People discuss whether it's more helpful than antidepressants, but then again it often doesn't even count as medicine. Took six weeks to kick into my own brain, and cured its chemistry back up to a point that I could sustain myself. The way back out of depression was an existential rollercoaster of emotions and attitudes with increasing frequency: Weeks at first, hours at the end while I got more stable. Some medicine might be useful for dampening, but only for that.
* Don't insist on keeping social contacts. Depressed you is somebody else than healthy you, and you can rebuild all truly good connections even after a couple of years in case they break apart. Similarly, don't insist on keeping anything else in your life if you find it doesn't work out at the moment. This is where you change careers, majors, hobbys, as well as losing your girlfriend. Keep as many things as you comfortably can a constant however, just to make it easier on yourself.
* Cognitive behavioural therapy. There's a good book on it called Feeling Good that told me /exactly/ the lessons I had missed in life, but your mileage may vary.
* Do whatever feels good to you. Your major job in life now is to make yourself feel good. After all, most people feel better than you, so it's well within your right to ignore others (and others' expectations) while focussing on yourself.
The diet and exercise suggestions are probably the best. Taking some walks and changing your daily scenery would probably help. Do you eat in the same place everyday? Pick a random book from the library and read it. If there are campus activities that seem interesting, go do them instead of playing games.
Don't freak out if your passion is missing for a while. Its just an ebb and you need to recharge. You'll already shown inspiration, you need to let it come back.
2. Set one small baby-step goal each day. (set an appointment today, etc.) Change the goal every time.
3. Change your environment. Move cities or schools if need be.
4. Exercise. Start with one rep on day 1, two reps on day 2, etc. Baby steps.
5. Ask for feedback on stuff. Any positive feedback helps motivate you to learn and do more projects.
6. Seek a healthy relationship.
7. Be vulnerable. Let somebody else that cares about you know of your state.
8. Be spiritually-curious. I'm christian and that inspires a lot.
9. Realize when your "objective observations" are not objective. Don't be blindsided by emotion.
10. Vent your emotion in a healthy and controlled way.
11. Write one sentence about your week every week. Again, baby steps.
12. Never do drugs. This just amplifies your problems.
13. This includes no smoking.
14. If you make lists and spreedsheets, track the frequency you leave the house.
15. Make alarms on your phone.
16. Volunteer once a week.
These are mostly based on experience and personal observations.
To answer to the original question, one of the easiest and potentially best solutions is to pick up an sport if you don't practice one and to spend more time with other things besides programming. Forget about programming for a few weeks. Do your college duties and don't spend more time than that. Go do other stuff. I've gone (and still do sometimes) through the exact same thing.
12. Never do drugs. This just amplifies your problems.
Your points #1 and #12 are a nice big contradiction.
Anti-depression drugs in particualr tend to have rather significant side-effects, which can last for a decade after you've stopped taking the drug.
Going to drugs to help against depression should be a plan C kind of a thing. Changing your environment and activities should be well tested before that.
There is a lot of overlap in these two sets.
For example, in Polish you'd classify aspirin as a medicine ("lek", "lekarstwo") and caffeine as a stimulating substance ("używka"). There is another word that is used to refer to harmful addictive substances like cocaine ("narkotyk"). There is no generally used word in Polish that encompasses all three terms.
Moodgym is a respected website: https://moodgym.anu.edu.au/welcome
Mind Over Mood is a respected book. http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0898621283/
If you've tried CBT and it's not working you may want to see a doctor and get some meds.
"Stop and smell the roses." Take the time to notice the beauty in things around you: both nature and concrete. I'm talking about the most sublime things. I first noticed it one night when I was driving home - the lights were reflecting off this dirty little dam of no significance, but for some reason I noticed it and for some reason it was beautiful. For a very long time after that I would make a point of noticing that little spot every day on the way home. Out of that habit I then started noticing more and more things. When you become depressed use that happy place as an anchor and hold onto it.
I realized that I used to think the same way as a kid: everything in the world was wondrous and happy - I think everyone forgets how to see the world that way. Re-learn that mindset.
Be very respectful toward alcohol, cannabis and caffeine. Too much of any will set you back.
Finally, something like 80% of the human race has a 5-MTHF deficiency (for genetic reasons, Google it). It presents as vitamin B deficiency and is therefore often misdiagnosed as depression and some learning disabilities (including trouble concentrating). If you can't get it from a chemist (I can't, 3rd world too) check herbal/homeopathy stores (which is how I get it). Speak to your doctor before taking it and ask for advice, you'll need to take it for quite a while before you start noticing a difference - 2 to 4 weeks at least.
Believe in yourself because I believe in you, I know you can do it. If at all possible get meds.
Bunch of hooey, though.
I can tell you one thing: OP isn't going to win by believing it's impossible because even the best meds only provide symptomatic relief. They don't fix the underlying problem. It's like giving a short person a mirror that makes them look taller. Meds can help you win, meds are good. I would never recommend someone to avoid them. All irrelevant: OP indicated depression is not an illness in his country. He/she supposedly can't see a doctor. No meds. All that's left is will power.
Knowing someone else did it makes all the difference.
Finally, as an expert on the matter, where is your advice? Or are you here tear OP down? I know OP can do it, all you know is what a major depressive disorder is.
I think other people in the thread have good advice on practical steps to take - big ones being meditation/mindfulness training, changing circumstances/surroundings, and diet/exercise. All of these things can do much more to alter brain chemistry and enact a positive feedback cycle than just "deciding" something.
If you have any tips about "excruciating existential anxiety" (of which I've been suffering for half the decade already, recently successfully moderated by SSRIs) I'd be more than glad to hear them. Right now the only coping strategy I have is to ignore it, but it interferes with my ability to concentrate and plan for the future - I'm literally unable to plan for more than a week-two in advance without getting serious emotional pains.
That's worked out well for me as a sort of first line of defense, but it has side effects too. I've been seeing a therapist for most of a year now to try to unwind some of it, because unfortunately the same mechanisms that repress something like anxiety also repress love or joy.
And I'd never recommend it to anyone else. For one thing, I haven't even been able to decide for myself if it's just a bunch of self-delusion or not; I'd have no idea how to go about suggesting someone else try it.
I've found that the more I think about it the worse it gets - which makes sense: it's habit-forming. Try this:
1. Stay on the SSRIs - they can help you learn how to break the habit.
2. Pick a "safe topic." It doesn't have to be interesting (although that probably helps), but should just have a good chance of not leading to existential issues.
3. Next time you start thinking about existential issues, start thinking about your topic instead.
I have no idea if it works in the long-run but it's what I am doing right now. I'm not sure if the underlying cause for the anxiety will ever go away, but if I can habitually stop thinking about it then it might as well no longer be there.
Also, it's usually worst when I am trying to go to sleep. I put on YouTube with brain-numbing content face-down next to my pillow: nothing stimulating (interesting or humorous).
This appeals to me, and perhaps to a lot other people. I know, it may not help all situations and all people. But sometimes unleashing/encouraging the fighter in you, may be the best thing. For me literature (novels etc.) and movies are helpful to generate that kind of fighting instinct.
In my experience the brain follows the body. An active mind is generated by an active body. Likewise a sleepy and listless mind can be created easily.
A2. If your country is OK (e.g. suicide rate there is less than 15 per 100000 people per year), I think you need to search for the intersection between things you have passion for, and things that are paid well. After you will find that intersection, I think you will get better. You see, when you was a kid, just following your passion was enough for happiness. In the adult world, however, you also need some financial independence for that.
A3. There are other things, like alcoholism or herbal medicine, but I generally do not recommend those to young people.
I don't know what the quality and breadth of instruction is, where you are in the world, so YMMV.