One of the offices at my previous job is situated on rue de Dunkerque, about 150m from the main Gare du Nord entrance. My boss and the CEO (who was in Milan) were on the phone, while my boss, using the headphones, was walking towards the metro station. My boss was monologuing about some issue in production, went through the security gates, kept monologuing until he reached one of the trains, and told the CEO that he was about to get on a train and the communication would probably drop out. It's only then that he realised that he was talking to himself. He searched through his pockets but only found the end of his headphones cable, disconnected, and no phone to be found.
It slowly dawned on him that his phone had been taken just before he went through the security gates.
About two weeks later, the exact same thing happened, only closer to the office. His phone got stolen right from his pocket. He usually keeps his phone either in the front pockets of his trousers, or the inside pocket of his jacket. He lost 4 phones over the course of 6 months. His phones rarely reach the one-year-old status.
The other end of the conversation was a bit more comical: The CEO was listening to his COO, heard some commotion, then heard someone panting and street noises, cars honking. He figured that my boss had been run-over; he usually finishes that story by concluding that, in horror, he immediately posted about the job opening on job boards.
Just got back from Paris in June, and Gar du Nord is definitely rife with pickpocketers, but they are actually really easy to spot if you know what to look for. They were casing my wife and I every time we went there for a train.
Right now, the big thing is to send in kids with a piece of paper, asking you to sign it and give them a donation. The kids sometimes pretend to be deaf, and they basically demand a minimum donation of 8 euros. Their piece of paper is all crumpled and filthy, but the kids usually look like normal European 8-year-old girls, often blond and cleanly dressed.
However, somewhere behind these girls, probably 20 to 30 feet away, will be a handler. The few we saw were always old women who looked like Eastern European grandmothers, and were probably the "Roma" everyone likes to call out.
This handler floats behind the kids and watches where phones and wallets go when they're placed back in pockets. She then drifts by if you engage the kids. The kids are the distraction, she's the pickpocket.
Frankly, though, if you pay any attention at all to the areas around you at Gare du Nord, or anywhere else in Europe, it's very easy to see this stuff going down and be safe. We were warned a dozen times about theft in Europe before our lengthy trip, but really, you just have to behave as you would in Manhattan or in San Francisco.
Frankly, you can lose your phone just as quickly in the Mission if you're on a busy bus and not paying attention.
The guy was really really lucky, especially in Paris. I lost my wallet twice , but fortunately since I used to live in a small city (less than 100 000 inhabitants) I got it back.
But yeah, the subway or the train in Paris is absolutely not safe in general, avoid it if you can, rent a car or a bike, you'll enjoy the city way more if you are a tourist that way.
The Roma criminality certainly has to do with poverty, but I'm sorry they also have a specific culture and raised into a specific environment that favor criminal behavior. It's a disservice to dismiss it as "xenophobia" or something else when these people are heavily despised everywhere they go in Europe, and for obvious reasons. It feels like they don't even care about themselves and they have no self-love. There is more than 400 Roma slums around Paris, and when I say slum , I'm talking about the real deal, people leaving in "cardboard houses" in the middle of garbage. I don't think it's normal.
My experience of Paris is completely at odds with this. I've travelled extensively by train and Metro and have had no problems at all. I would never drive or cycle in Paris.
I'm not going to touch the arguments about poverty, the homeless, or criminality, except to say that the only time I've really been concerned about the things I've seen have been in New York. I guess YMMV.
"Roma criminality"... "they have no self-love"... Sorry, but this is xenophobia, and Europeans are better than Americans at it. The systematic exclusion of groups from the mainstream creates extra-legal behaviors (or "culture", as you say) to make ends meet. Plus, Europeans love a scapegoat; it's part of a long, illiberal tradition on the continent.
This might prove unpopular but why can we never call a spade a spade?
In the area I lived in London for 15 years there were numerous traveller communities. Out of the 50+ I met in person over that time period how many do you think were pleasant? About 4. The rest tried to rob us, intimidate us, bully us, outright harm us, usually all for no reason except, "we are not them". They near literally destroy whatever area they decide to live in. The youngest person to pull a knife on a group of us was an 8yo traveller child. They just don't give a fuck in any sense.
I agree that they behave like this, in part, because they do not feel included as part of "normal" society. But I have to ask: Why in hell would anyone want these people in their society when they behave like this? And so continues the endless circle of crime against society and societies hate against them (which really... is justified?).
So we have this endless circle. To me the question is: Why don't they break this circle? Society offers them help, education, support in varying amounts which is there. They refuse to take it, because they do not appear to want to live under societies rules.
Then you have others come along and say "Well you're Xenophobic". Really? I'm Xenophobic, despite working alongside people of all races, religions, creeds with no problem at all? All because I don't want to be harmed and have my home life made a misery by a shitty person who feels the law and societies rules do not apply to them in any way?
If anything, isn't it they who are xenophobic? As they outright refuse to assimilate into the society they live in in any way, shape or form.
I'll never automatically hate a person because of their birth, that's incredibly stupid. But certain groups I'll be wary of, until they prove which direction (good/bad) they lean, because past experience of that group has taught me to be (and isn't that their fault?). To not be wary seems blind and itself... incredibly stupid.
Well, I think you have to look at these cases individually. The same thing you write here echos what is written by conservative commentators about poor African American communities in the US. Of course, such commentary conveniently excludes the way poverty and unemployment is structural to the US economy and that there are systematic forms of racism embedded in the US legal code. These empirical realities force communities of color to take part in extra-legal activities and the violence that comes along with those activities. All of a sudden, "normal" society - as you put it - looks like a society of oppressors and "these people" - as you put it - look more like the oppressed than a bunch of ne'er do wells.
Wouldn't another moral be that not all immigration waves bring the same kind of people ? Immigrants from asia have, everywhere ( to my knowledge), brang people that work hard, have children that do great at school, and only protest to ask for more police force rather than less (true story from a recent protest in the belleville district in Paris, because chineese (sometimes illegal) immigrants were often attacked by north-africans that stole their bags, knowing they wouldn't go see the police).
I've managed to avoid having any of my phones stolen since living in Paris. As a prank a friend of mine nicked it out of my coat pocket and since then I never keep anything valuable in them except winter gloves.
One of the scams pickpockets play is to try and distract you. I don't know a lot of people so I avoid conversation with strangers on the street. though I might engage in the bar.
Why is this behavior tolerated across all of Europe? Seems like they run the same scams in each country. Why don't the police run stings and arrest them? Or is it because the police are also on vacation when the tourists come in summer?
Well in Belgium it's because they arrest them. The cops put down their information at the station, and they are out 3 hours later. MAYBE later they are summoned for trial, months later. But good luck by then.
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[ 6.2 ms ] story [ 48.0 ms ] threadIt slowly dawned on him that his phone had been taken just before he went through the security gates.
About two weeks later, the exact same thing happened, only closer to the office. His phone got stolen right from his pocket. He usually keeps his phone either in the front pockets of his trousers, or the inside pocket of his jacket. He lost 4 phones over the course of 6 months. His phones rarely reach the one-year-old status.
The other end of the conversation was a bit more comical: The CEO was listening to his COO, heard some commotion, then heard someone panting and street noises, cars honking. He figured that my boss had been run-over; he usually finishes that story by concluding that, in horror, he immediately posted about the job opening on job boards.
Right now, the big thing is to send in kids with a piece of paper, asking you to sign it and give them a donation. The kids sometimes pretend to be deaf, and they basically demand a minimum donation of 8 euros. Their piece of paper is all crumpled and filthy, but the kids usually look like normal European 8-year-old girls, often blond and cleanly dressed.
However, somewhere behind these girls, probably 20 to 30 feet away, will be a handler. The few we saw were always old women who looked like Eastern European grandmothers, and were probably the "Roma" everyone likes to call out.
This handler floats behind the kids and watches where phones and wallets go when they're placed back in pockets. She then drifts by if you engage the kids. The kids are the distraction, she's the pickpocket.
Frankly, though, if you pay any attention at all to the areas around you at Gare du Nord, or anywhere else in Europe, it's very easy to see this stuff going down and be safe. We were warned a dozen times about theft in Europe before our lengthy trip, but really, you just have to behave as you would in Manhattan or in San Francisco.
Frankly, you can lose your phone just as quickly in the Mission if you're on a busy bus and not paying attention.
But yeah, the subway or the train in Paris is absolutely not safe in general, avoid it if you can, rent a car or a bike, you'll enjoy the city way more if you are a tourist that way.
The Roma criminality certainly has to do with poverty, but I'm sorry they also have a specific culture and raised into a specific environment that favor criminal behavior. It's a disservice to dismiss it as "xenophobia" or something else when these people are heavily despised everywhere they go in Europe, and for obvious reasons. It feels like they don't even care about themselves and they have no self-love. There is more than 400 Roma slums around Paris, and when I say slum , I'm talking about the real deal, people leaving in "cardboard houses" in the middle of garbage. I don't think it's normal.
I'm not going to touch the arguments about poverty, the homeless, or criminality, except to say that the only time I've really been concerned about the things I've seen have been in New York. I guess YMMV.
Oh please, Ok, let's talk about the racism against blacks in US before talking about the alleged European xenophobia.
In the area I lived in London for 15 years there were numerous traveller communities. Out of the 50+ I met in person over that time period how many do you think were pleasant? About 4. The rest tried to rob us, intimidate us, bully us, outright harm us, usually all for no reason except, "we are not them". They near literally destroy whatever area they decide to live in. The youngest person to pull a knife on a group of us was an 8yo traveller child. They just don't give a fuck in any sense.
I agree that they behave like this, in part, because they do not feel included as part of "normal" society. But I have to ask: Why in hell would anyone want these people in their society when they behave like this? And so continues the endless circle of crime against society and societies hate against them (which really... is justified?).
So we have this endless circle. To me the question is: Why don't they break this circle? Society offers them help, education, support in varying amounts which is there. They refuse to take it, because they do not appear to want to live under societies rules.
Then you have others come along and say "Well you're Xenophobic". Really? I'm Xenophobic, despite working alongside people of all races, religions, creeds with no problem at all? All because I don't want to be harmed and have my home life made a misery by a shitty person who feels the law and societies rules do not apply to them in any way?
If anything, isn't it they who are xenophobic? As they outright refuse to assimilate into the society they live in in any way, shape or form.
I'll never automatically hate a person because of their birth, that's incredibly stupid. But certain groups I'll be wary of, until they prove which direction (good/bad) they lean, because past experience of that group has taught me to be (and isn't that their fault?). To not be wary seems blind and itself... incredibly stupid.
One of the scams pickpockets play is to try and distract you. I don't know a lot of people so I avoid conversation with strangers on the street. though I might engage in the bar.