> And you still are pretending that steam power plants running on hydrogen don't exist. Yet again, you originally said we could use gas turbines for hydrogen storage. Not steam turbines. Of course steam turbines can…
I didn't reject future hydrogen gas turbines. In fact, I'm the one who brought them up. That's the entire point I'm making: hydrogen gas turbines are still in development. If hydrogen gas turbines already exist, why are…
An electric car is as green as the grid that powers it. But a hybrid will never be green even if the grid is 100% green because it still burns fossil fuels. Same with a turbine that consumes a mixture containing natural…
Why? Electric cars don't use a mixture of gas and batteries. Those cars do exist and we call them "hybrids". But those are not carbon neutral and we don't pretend they are.
The goalpost never moved. If you want to use hydrogen storage in a carbon neutral grid you need 100% hydrogen fuel. We're not there there yet. And we won't be there for the better part of a decade, or longer. I guess…
Most companies are targeting hydrogen gas turbines to be produced in 2030 or 2040: https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/en/news/magazine/2019/... They aren't "off the shelf" technology yet.
> nevermind this whole goalpost moving argument of "current gas turbine already in existence." This was the original goalpost. Let's re-read it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26599162 > Those gas turbines you're…
> This whole started because no one here thought someone would seriously try to argue that hydrogen gas turbines are impossible. For some of us this was too obvious to even bother trying to debunk. Now you're just…
If we aren't using combined cycle gas turbines round-trip efficiency of hydrogen storage is seriously reduced. I'm not moving any goalpost. This is your comment when you claimed that gas turbines could be repurposed to…
Yes, I'm familiar with moving the goalposts. It's exactly what you've been doing in this thread. First you claimed that existing natural gas turbines could be modified to run hydrogen. That hydrogen turbines usable for…
Sure, we could burn hydrogen and drive a boiler like a coal plant. But that's not where this comment thread started. > Those gas turbines you're referring to can simply be modified natural gas gas turbines Sure, if you…
Right. Lithium batteries won't cut it. That leaves geographically-dependent hydroelectricity, which isn't so easy to build. And then proposed solutions that are still in the prototyping phase, and aren't commercially…
It was done for a very short duration during the 1980s as a technology demonstrator. A prototype, not an actually commercially viable product. Yes, we can improve on a 33 year old technology, but it's not something we…
For the third time, storage is only one part of the puzzle. We also need a way to cheaply electrolyze water into hydrogen, compress it into the storage facility, and then use it to generate electricity. Nobody doubts…
Right, but then we're not talking about combined-cycle gas turbines to convert hydrogen back into electricity. If we're going to boil water than that's much less efficient than the ~66% efficiency we get out of combined…
> A gas turbine burning hydrogen does not experience any stresses that is meaningfully different from one burning natural gas or kerosene. Simply applied engineering can solve all of the issues associated with hydrogen…
A solar heavy network would still need 12 hours of storage to accommodate nighttime energy use. More actually, because of greater seasonal fluctuations further from the equator. All of the Americas experience night time…
That link you provided doesn't encompass gas turbines. Gas turbines capable of burning hydrogen do exist, but only at smaller concentrations, 70% methane and 30% hydrogen or less.
Then our transition to solar + wind needs to include the cost of installing a septic tank and water reservoir in every household. And a thermal battery for heating. And an electric battery for lighting. And all the…
Storing hydrogen is only one piece of the puzzle. Yes, if you happen to live near an abandoned salt mine that's a convenient place to put a large quantity of hydrogen. That doesn't solve the problem of massive…
You're falling back to the "if it works on paper it'll be guaranteed to work at scale, and work cheaply" argument. Please stop this foolishness. It's not just a question of storage, you can just use a salt cavern for…
We've been using hydrogen in the chemical industry. We haven't been using hydrogen to drive combustion turbines very much, and even then it's in a mixture of natural gas. Unfortunately, those alloys that experience…
That "manipulation of hydrogen" mostly involves use in the the chemical industry. We don't use hydrogen to power gas turbines. I'm not sure why you're trying to deny the existence of chemical facts:…
Name one hydrogen electric grid storage facility. Not prototypes, but actual commercial facilities connected to the grid. You insist that hydrogen is so technically ready, yet nobody is using it.
No, hydrogen rapidly corrodes any metals that it comes into contact with. If they are interchangeable, expect drastically smaller service intervals.
> And you still are pretending that steam power plants running on hydrogen don't exist. Yet again, you originally said we could use gas turbines for hydrogen storage. Not steam turbines. Of course steam turbines can…
I didn't reject future hydrogen gas turbines. In fact, I'm the one who brought them up. That's the entire point I'm making: hydrogen gas turbines are still in development. If hydrogen gas turbines already exist, why are…
An electric car is as green as the grid that powers it. But a hybrid will never be green even if the grid is 100% green because it still burns fossil fuels. Same with a turbine that consumes a mixture containing natural…
Why? Electric cars don't use a mixture of gas and batteries. Those cars do exist and we call them "hybrids". But those are not carbon neutral and we don't pretend they are.
The goalpost never moved. If you want to use hydrogen storage in a carbon neutral grid you need 100% hydrogen fuel. We're not there there yet. And we won't be there for the better part of a decade, or longer. I guess…
Most companies are targeting hydrogen gas turbines to be produced in 2030 or 2040: https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/en/news/magazine/2019/... They aren't "off the shelf" technology yet.
> nevermind this whole goalpost moving argument of "current gas turbine already in existence." This was the original goalpost. Let's re-read it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26599162 > Those gas turbines you're…
> This whole started because no one here thought someone would seriously try to argue that hydrogen gas turbines are impossible. For some of us this was too obvious to even bother trying to debunk. Now you're just…
If we aren't using combined cycle gas turbines round-trip efficiency of hydrogen storage is seriously reduced. I'm not moving any goalpost. This is your comment when you claimed that gas turbines could be repurposed to…
Yes, I'm familiar with moving the goalposts. It's exactly what you've been doing in this thread. First you claimed that existing natural gas turbines could be modified to run hydrogen. That hydrogen turbines usable for…
Sure, we could burn hydrogen and drive a boiler like a coal plant. But that's not where this comment thread started. > Those gas turbines you're referring to can simply be modified natural gas gas turbines Sure, if you…
Right. Lithium batteries won't cut it. That leaves geographically-dependent hydroelectricity, which isn't so easy to build. And then proposed solutions that are still in the prototyping phase, and aren't commercially…
It was done for a very short duration during the 1980s as a technology demonstrator. A prototype, not an actually commercially viable product. Yes, we can improve on a 33 year old technology, but it's not something we…
For the third time, storage is only one part of the puzzle. We also need a way to cheaply electrolyze water into hydrogen, compress it into the storage facility, and then use it to generate electricity. Nobody doubts…
Right, but then we're not talking about combined-cycle gas turbines to convert hydrogen back into electricity. If we're going to boil water than that's much less efficient than the ~66% efficiency we get out of combined…
> A gas turbine burning hydrogen does not experience any stresses that is meaningfully different from one burning natural gas or kerosene. Simply applied engineering can solve all of the issues associated with hydrogen…
A solar heavy network would still need 12 hours of storage to accommodate nighttime energy use. More actually, because of greater seasonal fluctuations further from the equator. All of the Americas experience night time…
That link you provided doesn't encompass gas turbines. Gas turbines capable of burning hydrogen do exist, but only at smaller concentrations, 70% methane and 30% hydrogen or less.
Then our transition to solar + wind needs to include the cost of installing a septic tank and water reservoir in every household. And a thermal battery for heating. And an electric battery for lighting. And all the…
Storing hydrogen is only one piece of the puzzle. Yes, if you happen to live near an abandoned salt mine that's a convenient place to put a large quantity of hydrogen. That doesn't solve the problem of massive…
You're falling back to the "if it works on paper it'll be guaranteed to work at scale, and work cheaply" argument. Please stop this foolishness. It's not just a question of storage, you can just use a salt cavern for…
We've been using hydrogen in the chemical industry. We haven't been using hydrogen to drive combustion turbines very much, and even then it's in a mixture of natural gas. Unfortunately, those alloys that experience…
That "manipulation of hydrogen" mostly involves use in the the chemical industry. We don't use hydrogen to power gas turbines. I'm not sure why you're trying to deny the existence of chemical facts:…
Name one hydrogen electric grid storage facility. Not prototypes, but actual commercial facilities connected to the grid. You insist that hydrogen is so technically ready, yet nobody is using it.
No, hydrogen rapidly corrodes any metals that it comes into contact with. If they are interchangeable, expect drastically smaller service intervals.