That sucks, but let us talk about the real social issues, like guys spreading their legs on the metro and scantily clad female characters in video games.
Suicidal thinking is always significant. If you're having thoughts of suicide please seek help.
Suicide in the UK is the leading cause of death in men under 45.
The cause of the disparity between male and female deaths is not fully understood. We think it's a combination of lethality of method (men tend to use methods that are harder to survive) and lack of male help seeking (although we've recently seen a rise in death among men who are already known to MH services). But there's probably other stuff going on too.
Suicide statistics in the UK come from the Office for National Statistics. So they are accurate and robust and clearly defined, but it helps to know what the definition is so you know where the stats are wrong. For example: a death that is counted as suicide in someone over 15 may not be counted as suicide in someone under 15. Methods come from ICD10 classifications.
"The research appeared to reinforce the societal view that men don’t talk about suicidal thoughts because they don’t want to worry family or friends."
Yeah, just another symptom of the whole "gotta be macho or else I'm not a real man(tm)" phenomenon which kills men in more ways than just suicide. Men also don't go to the doctor or confide in others for emotional support as much, instead opting to "man up" directly into a shorter lifespan than women.
Women egg men into this by overtly preferring brutish unexpressiveness as it's "more masculine", but at the end of the day it's mostly men bullying each other starting from birth when this code is violated. Men are expected to rarely, if ever, dip into their emotional support structure-- this makes it largely useless. You're just expected to deal with it, repress those emotions, and put on a brave face to carry on.
Aside from machismo and being discouraged from getting help from anyone, men are frequently burdened by the responsibility to provide for their family, which is considered their primary (only) purpose. If a man loses his job, it's an affront to his worth as a human being. This is why middle aged men frequently kill themselves when they lose their job or are having trouble paying off their house; they suffer deeply and largely silently for perceived failures of manhood. The suicidal want an escape from their suffering, and as I've said before, there's really no way for men to ease their suffering in an acceptable way. Drugs and whatever are helpful, but ultimately aren't enough.
All very true. Perhaps men are more suicidal because the deck is stacked against them:
- 93% of workers who died at work due to fatal accidents or violence were male
- 77% of males are genitally mutilated at birth (in the US), female mutilation is illegal
- 29% of male first-time offenders were sentenced to custody. For women, that figure was 17%. Men have a 62% chance of being bailed, while for women that figure is 80%
- men are as likely as women to be victims of domestic abuse
- men are more likely to be made redundant and less likely to be re-employed than women
- 90% of homeless are male
But I hear there is this "war on women" going on...
As a male with only brothers I always thought men had things worse. We are expected to do 100% of "Man's work" and 50% of everything else "Shared work". The concept of "Women's work" is seen as a very outdated and offensive. As a male you aren't suppose to complain or ask for help so you don't. It seems like a raw deal...
Now that I have a wife and a daughter I realize that women often have it worse than men (in terms of general happiness). Not because of men but because of how complex their relationships with other women/groups of women are. They are brutal to each other and spend tons of energy undermining each others confidence and playing micro social games of exclusion and humiliation for virtually no gain. I feel sad to know that my daughter will have to endure the slings and arrows of "Frenemies" as she grows up, and that she may well dish it out to some other poor girl.
I'm sure it's for the words "deck is stacked against them" and the snark about the problems women face, not the list of facts. A big list of pros without cons, or cons without pros, says nothing about overall ranking. Overall ranking is a terrible way to think about things, anyway. Problems don't get fixed because other people have different problems.
I listed "cons" because they almost certainly affect the high rate of suicides among men - the very topic of this thread.
The statistics listed support the "deck is stacked..." statement. It is hard not to be frustrated by the media narrative focusing on women's issues, mostly ignoring men's.
I downvoted you for parroting a bunch of unrelated "red pill" nonsense in order to advance an insolent, regressive agenda instead of providing a meaningful commentary on the article or the other comments here.
He didn't say any of those things are related to suicide, they're just examples of gender disparity. I don't know much about MRA or red pill, but my guess is that you're committing an association fallacy here.
Shut the fuck up, you stupid moron. They're statistics, not "MRA bullshit".
Do they show any correlation with suicide at all? No. Are they implicitly
MRA statistics because they highlight disparity between genders specifically
for men? No. Does highlighting the difficulties one gender faces neglect
another gender's difficulties? No.
So, please shut the fuck up. You are doing absolutely fuck all to help ANY
gender. Your polarised views and divisive attitude is only making it far,
far worse.
Workplace accidents are caused by working in close proximity to heavy equipment and industrial machines.
Do you not think that working in dangerous and/or unhealthy jobs (or being stationed in Afghanistan) affects your happiness? (There are numerous studies about post-traumatic syndrome for veterans)
While circumcision does not affect happiness, the contrast between men (OK to mutilate men without consent) and women, shows media/cultural bias (supports the wider point of deck being stacked against men)
> Do you not think that working in dangerous and/or unhealthy jobs (or being stationed in Afghanistan) affects your happiness?
No. But if you can show a reputable site that shows a link to heavy industry and suicide I'd be interested.
There's currently a link (in the UK) between construction workers and suicide, but this is thought to be linked to financial instability, not dangerousness of the workplace. That link hasn't always been there. We don't see the same correlations in other dangerous industries. We do see the same correlations in other industries that are affected by worsening economy, or that provide access to means and methods. (EG vets have access to meds, and are affected by worsening economy when farmers can't afford them).
Funny, when i started reading this I was thinking that most of these dudes whom killed themselves had adverse relations with their partners. Then my boy called me about an argument he had with his wife, about her instigating him with, "why are you mad all the time".
"- 93% of workers who died at work due to fatal accidents or violence were male"
Violence in the workplace is negligible compared to occupational hazards. Those killed by violence in the armed forces or law enforcement is most certainly a "workplace hazard" so that can't be lumped in with workplace violence.
Last I checked there weren't a lot of women working in close proximity to heavy equipment and industrial machines when compared with men. If you're not working somewhere dangerous you're less likely to be killed/injured on the job.
- 77% of males are genitally mutilated at birth (in the US), female mutilation is illegal
The CDC stopped recommending circumcision because it didn't have probable benefits, noticed bad results (increased chance of STD transmission) and started recommending it again. You're fighting an uphill battle on that one
"- 29% of male first-time offenders were sentenced to custody. For women, that figure was 17%. Men have a 62% chance of being bailed, while for women that figure is 80%"
Without information about the nature of the crimes this is useless. There's an infinite supply of anecdotal evidence that law enforcement treats women less poorly (more warnings, less piling on of charges) but that's not really admissible evidence in this sort of numbers debate.
I generally agree with your implied conclusion but pick better supporting evidence, when you have an unpopular opinion you need to be so convincing that even the dumbest of the dumb don't feels quite right disagreeing.
Your point about working conditions being the reason for fatal accidents is obviously correct, I thought it was kinda implied (wanted to keep it brief).
I was not discussing potential benefits (or lack thereof) of circumcision - rather pointing out the unequal treatment of men (OK to mutilate without consent) vs women (illegal to mutilate).
>The CDC stopped recommending circumcision because it didn't have probable benefits, noticed bad results (increased chance of STD transmission) and started recommending it again. You're fighting an uphill battle on that one
Are we to suggest that the main issue with FGM is that there aren't any major beneficial results from doing such?
I think a lot of this is hypothesis not supported by statistics. The "men don't talk about their problems" idea seems like an explanation in search of a problem.
> The role that gender plays as a risk factor for suicide has been studied extensively. While females tend to show higher rates of reported nonfatal suicidal behavior and suicide ideation, males have a much higher rate of completed suicides.[2][7] However, a 2009 study tends to show little to no difference in suicidal ideation between men and women.[7] A 2008 study of suicide attempts by gender found that females have a higher rate of attempted suicide than males earlier in life, and that this rate decreases with age.[8] For males, the rate of attempted suicide remains fairly constant when controlled for age. Males and females also tend to differ in their methods of suicide and responses to suicidal feelings.
It doesn't really matter which way you slice it, or which figure you believe/find more reputable, there is no stat that shows a 3 to one difference in attempts. Some more:
> Males frequently complete suicide via high mortality actions such as hanging, carbon-monoxide poisoning, and firearms. This is in contrast to females, who tend to rely on drug overdosing.
If we could find a way to change the method of suicide attempt, we might be able to save a lot of men.
Or we could make men talk I guess, that might work.
I accidentally downvoted you. Sorry. (Hopefulyl someone can correct my downvote?)
You're right. The National Confidential Inquiry notes that the UK has seen a rise in deaths among men who are already known to MH services - those men have already asked for help.
I'm not sure how useful this comment will be be but I thought I would weigh in with my own experience of suicidal thoughts.
I have experienced serious suicidal thoughts in the past and still do from time to time. In the past (we're talking 10 years or so ago) it was definitely due to depression. I don't feel this way anymore though. At least, not that I can tell.
It's more of a philisophical exercise these days, thinking about what suicide means and what it would be like to experience, the people left behind, the scientific, philisophical and symbolic gesture of opting to end your own existence etc.
Sometimes I entertain the idea of suicide just because I'm so utterly bored or frustrated with life and people in it. I wouldn't describe it as depression as such, just a sense of being unimpressed with the way things work. The way people think, they way they treat eachother, the selfishness and deceit at the heart of all people whether they believe it about themselves or not. The fact that eventually the solar system, the galaxy and the universe will cease to exist and it all would have been pointless anyway.
I suppose it is more of a cynicism and misanthropy.
I kept it from friends and family, still do except for one friend who pretty much thinks the way I do, on most things. Not out of some sense of possibly appearing weak or 'not a man' though.
It is entirely because I feel that if I do eventually decide to check out one day, it's my decision and I don't want anyone stopping me (and likely putting me in an institution). They don't have the right because it is my decision. I'm not that enamoured with life that I need rescuing by someone with the audacity to start making decisions on my behalf. It seems like the height of arrogance to me.
Not sure how helpful this is and I'm not trying to disparage the feelings of other men who might be experiencing suicidal thoughts and are afraid to tell anyone. They definitely do need help. I just wanted to offer a another view, as I am sure I can't be the only one.
According to [1] women make twice as much suicide attempts than men. The point is, since women usually choose less brutal methods of committing suicide they have much lower "success rate".
The dead can't make another attempt. Personally, I find the 'who attempts more' misleading because it counts a successful attempt as equal to an unsuccessful attempt when trying to compare the problems.
Also, wouldn't a better metric be which group had more people who attempted at least once, as that counts the same regardless if it was 1 successful attempt or 10 failed ones.
I don't know about the UK, but in the US talking to people about this is likely to lead to losing your freedom (getting committed and losing other rights such as gun ownership) so I'm not surprised that most people, men or women, avoid talking about this entirely, and certainly never with a "professional."
Yes, people's fear of what MH treatment involves is one barrier that causes avoidable harm.
Suicidal thinking covers a range of severity. In England you are unlikely to be detained in hospital against your will (detained under section of the mental health act; "sectioned") or admitted informally to a mental health hospital for suicidal thinking unless you're at the most severe end.
This is partly because there is a lack of inpatient beds, but also because inpatient treatment isn't suitable for many people and you should get better results from outpatient treatment. (Although there are pressures there too).
There is anonymous support available from the Samaritans or CALMZone. Or you could see your GP, who would probably (hopefully) refer you to your local crisis team or MH gateway team.
The women I've known who "attempted" suicide weren't really trying to kill themselves. It was either attention seeking behavior or an attempt to punish people in their social circle. IMO it's more a question of intent than method.
How does the title of this post support your unpleasant suggestion that women who attempt suicide are not serious in their attempt (your use of scare quotes is fucking disgusting, BTW) and were doing it to seek attention or to punish people - it is this attention seeking / punishing behaviour that I'm trying to get you to support with any evidence.
When your "truth" is nothing more than an off-handed, ill-conceived misinterpretation of the implications of the research... you should probably reconsider your "truth".
The only ugly truth in any of this is that opinions like yours prevent people from getting the help they need, and the fundamental respect they deserve.
45 comments
[ 3.8 ms ] story [ 95.1 ms ] threadSuicide in the UK is the leading cause of death in men under 45.
The cause of the disparity between male and female deaths is not fully understood. We think it's a combination of lethality of method (men tend to use methods that are harder to survive) and lack of male help seeking (although we've recently seen a rise in death among men who are already known to MH services). But there's probably other stuff going on too.
Suicide statistics in the UK come from the Office for National Statistics. So they are accurate and robust and clearly defined, but it helps to know what the definition is so you know where the stats are wrong. For example: a death that is counted as suicide in someone over 15 may not be counted as suicide in someone under 15. Methods come from ICD10 classifications.
http://ons.gov.uk/ons/taxonomy/index.html?nscl=Suicide+Rates
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171778_395145.pdf
Other information about suicide is listed in the National Confidential Inquiry http://www.bbmh.manchester.ac.uk/cmhs
If you're in England there's a national suicide prevention strategy, and each local authority should also have a local suicide prevention strategy. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/suicide-preventio...
CALMZone is a respected UK charity aiming to reduce male suicide. (Perhaps similar to the (robustly named!) Australian group "Soften the Fuck Up" http://softenthefckup.spurprojects.org/ ) They've recently launched an interesting twitter based campaign. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10491576 https://www.thecalmzone.net/2015/11/big-news-calm-and-lynx-l...
Yeah, just another symptom of the whole "gotta be macho or else I'm not a real man(tm)" phenomenon which kills men in more ways than just suicide. Men also don't go to the doctor or confide in others for emotional support as much, instead opting to "man up" directly into a shorter lifespan than women.
Women egg men into this by overtly preferring brutish unexpressiveness as it's "more masculine", but at the end of the day it's mostly men bullying each other starting from birth when this code is violated. Men are expected to rarely, if ever, dip into their emotional support structure-- this makes it largely useless. You're just expected to deal with it, repress those emotions, and put on a brave face to carry on.
Aside from machismo and being discouraged from getting help from anyone, men are frequently burdened by the responsibility to provide for their family, which is considered their primary (only) purpose. If a man loses his job, it's an affront to his worth as a human being. This is why middle aged men frequently kill themselves when they lose their job or are having trouble paying off their house; they suffer deeply and largely silently for perceived failures of manhood. The suicidal want an escape from their suffering, and as I've said before, there's really no way for men to ease their suffering in an acceptable way. Drugs and whatever are helpful, but ultimately aren't enough.
- 93% of workers who died at work due to fatal accidents or violence were male
- 77% of males are genitally mutilated at birth (in the US), female mutilation is illegal
- 29% of male first-time offenders were sentenced to custody. For women, that figure was 17%. Men have a 62% chance of being bailed, while for women that figure is 80%
- men are as likely as women to be victims of domestic abuse
- men are more likely to be made redundant and less likely to be re-employed than women
- 90% of homeless are male
But I hear there is this "war on women" going on...
Now that I have a wife and a daughter I realize that women often have it worse than men (in terms of general happiness). Not because of men but because of how complex their relationships with other women/groups of women are. They are brutal to each other and spend tons of energy undermining each others confidence and playing micro social games of exclusion and humiliation for virtually no gain. I feel sad to know that my daughter will have to endure the slings and arrows of "Frenemies" as she grows up, and that she may well dish it out to some other poor girl.
The statistics listed support the "deck is stacked..." statement. It is hard not to be frustrated by the media narrative focusing on women's issues, mostly ignoring men's.
How is male circumcision linked to suicide?
How is workplace death linked to suicide?
Which is why he got downvoted. They're mostly not relevant to suicide[1]. It's just a dump of MRA bullshit with no relevance to the thread.
[1] but if you can show reputable sites that make links I'd be interested to see them. (And I'm not saying they're all irrelevant.)
So, please shut the fuck up. You are doing absolutely fuck all to help ANY gender. Your polarised views and divisive attitude is only making it far, far worse.
Do you not think that working in dangerous and/or unhealthy jobs (or being stationed in Afghanistan) affects your happiness? (There are numerous studies about post-traumatic syndrome for veterans)
While circumcision does not affect happiness, the contrast between men (OK to mutilate men without consent) and women, shows media/cultural bias (supports the wider point of deck being stacked against men)
No. But if you can show a reputable site that shows a link to heavy industry and suicide I'd be interested.
There's currently a link (in the UK) between construction workers and suicide, but this is thought to be linked to financial instability, not dangerousness of the workplace. That link hasn't always been there. We don't see the same correlations in other dangerous industries. We do see the same correlations in other industries that are affected by worsening economy, or that provide access to means and methods. (EG vets have access to meds, and are affected by worsening economy when farmers can't afford them).
Unless they edited and took some stuff out, I'm not seeing anything related to that topic.
funny.
Violence in the workplace is negligible compared to occupational hazards. Those killed by violence in the armed forces or law enforcement is most certainly a "workplace hazard" so that can't be lumped in with workplace violence.
Last I checked there weren't a lot of women working in close proximity to heavy equipment and industrial machines when compared with men. If you're not working somewhere dangerous you're less likely to be killed/injured on the job.
- 77% of males are genitally mutilated at birth (in the US), female mutilation is illegal
The CDC stopped recommending circumcision because it didn't have probable benefits, noticed bad results (increased chance of STD transmission) and started recommending it again. You're fighting an uphill battle on that one
"- 29% of male first-time offenders were sentenced to custody. For women, that figure was 17%. Men have a 62% chance of being bailed, while for women that figure is 80%"
Without information about the nature of the crimes this is useless. There's an infinite supply of anecdotal evidence that law enforcement treats women less poorly (more warnings, less piling on of charges) but that's not really admissible evidence in this sort of numbers debate.
I generally agree with your implied conclusion but pick better supporting evidence, when you have an unpopular opinion you need to be so convincing that even the dumbest of the dumb don't feels quite right disagreeing.
I was not discussing potential benefits (or lack thereof) of circumcision - rather pointing out the unequal treatment of men (OK to mutilate without consent) vs women (illegal to mutilate).
Are we to suggest that the main issue with FGM is that there aren't any major beneficial results from doing such?
The real issue, that is not mentioned in the article, is that the difference comes down to EFFECTIVENESS in suicide methods, much more so than INTENT. From wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide
> The role that gender plays as a risk factor for suicide has been studied extensively. While females tend to show higher rates of reported nonfatal suicidal behavior and suicide ideation, males have a much higher rate of completed suicides.[2][7] However, a 2009 study tends to show little to no difference in suicidal ideation between men and women.[7] A 2008 study of suicide attempts by gender found that females have a higher rate of attempted suicide than males earlier in life, and that this rate decreases with age.[8] For males, the rate of attempted suicide remains fairly constant when controlled for age. Males and females also tend to differ in their methods of suicide and responses to suicidal feelings.
It doesn't really matter which way you slice it, or which figure you believe/find more reputable, there is no stat that shows a 3 to one difference in attempts. Some more:
> Males frequently complete suicide via high mortality actions such as hanging, carbon-monoxide poisoning, and firearms. This is in contrast to females, who tend to rely on drug overdosing.
If we could find a way to change the method of suicide attempt, we might be able to save a lot of men.
Or we could make men talk I guess, that might work.
You're right. The National Confidential Inquiry notes that the UK has seen a rise in deaths among men who are already known to MH services - those men have already asked for help.
I have experienced serious suicidal thoughts in the past and still do from time to time. In the past (we're talking 10 years or so ago) it was definitely due to depression. I don't feel this way anymore though. At least, not that I can tell.
It's more of a philisophical exercise these days, thinking about what suicide means and what it would be like to experience, the people left behind, the scientific, philisophical and symbolic gesture of opting to end your own existence etc.
Sometimes I entertain the idea of suicide just because I'm so utterly bored or frustrated with life and people in it. I wouldn't describe it as depression as such, just a sense of being unimpressed with the way things work. The way people think, they way they treat eachother, the selfishness and deceit at the heart of all people whether they believe it about themselves or not. The fact that eventually the solar system, the galaxy and the universe will cease to exist and it all would have been pointless anyway.
I suppose it is more of a cynicism and misanthropy.
I kept it from friends and family, still do except for one friend who pretty much thinks the way I do, on most things. Not out of some sense of possibly appearing weak or 'not a man' though.
It is entirely because I feel that if I do eventually decide to check out one day, it's my decision and I don't want anyone stopping me (and likely putting me in an institution). They don't have the right because it is my decision. I'm not that enamoured with life that I need rescuing by someone with the audacity to start making decisions on my behalf. It seems like the height of arrogance to me.
Not sure how helpful this is and I'm not trying to disparage the feelings of other men who might be experiencing suicidal thoughts and are afraid to tell anyone. They definitely do need help. I just wanted to offer a another view, as I am sure I can't be the only one.
[1]http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/11/981112075159.ht...
Also, wouldn't a better metric be which group had more people who attempted at least once, as that counts the same regardless if it was 1 successful attempt or 10 failed ones.
Suicidal thinking covers a range of severity. In England you are unlikely to be detained in hospital against your will (detained under section of the mental health act; "sectioned") or admitted informally to a mental health hospital for suicidal thinking unless you're at the most severe end.
This is partly because there is a lack of inpatient beds, but also because inpatient treatment isn't suitable for many people and you should get better results from outpatient treatment. (Although there are pressures there too).
There is anonymous support available from the Samaritans or CALMZone. Or you could see your GP, who would probably (hopefully) refer you to your local crisis team or MH gateway team.
I made that statement based on personal experience and that I find laughable the idea that women are somehow too incompetent to kill themselves.
What does that leave?
Your comments are revolting and you should feel shame.
The only ugly truth in any of this is that opinions like yours prevent people from getting the help they need, and the fundamental respect they deserve.
Why don't you explain why it is men are far more likely to kill themselves?