What?? So all parties, no matter how vile or detestable their actions or beliefs, deserve my respect simply because they exist within a democratic system? That is a ludicrous argument.
Thankfully, as far as Notepad++ is concerned, Open Source software doesn't have a requirement to be 'professional' and is free to take a political stance.
Well, it may be to you. But the author is an immigrant and probably has strong emotional feelings about this. France is a house divided about this right now.
Gladly. There are better editors out there whose authors do not try to make political statements, as if their opinion mattered more because of software they happened to produce.
> whose authors do not try to make political statements
I don't think there's anything wrong with having a political opinion - especially if the opinion is, "People who hate me for no good reason are kind of assholes."
> as if their opinion mattered more
I don't think the author thinks their opinion matters MORE - I think the author thinks their opinion is worth voicing.
I have a lot of opinions myself as well, but I do not present them as my projects' opinions. Especially in things as polarizing as Europe's current immigration problem. This only causes heated discussions that are not related to software at all. Like in Facebook comments for the post linked.
If no one listens to you, but lots of people listen to you when you put a certain hat on, and you feel the subject is an ethical imperative for you, then speak your mind, I say. Be prepared to deal with the consequences of course, which may include derision, abandonment, cynicism, or apathy.
You know FN is Front National, France's neo-Nazi party - right? I don't see the problem with an open source project using what influence it has to take a stand against that.
It was founded by Jean-Marie Le Pen, a well-known and outspoken neo-Nazi, who led the party up until just four years ago. Currently his daughter is in charge.
edit: jdjdhnxn edited their comment either while I was responding or after I had responded. I'm not sure which.
Yes, and they've excommunicated him from the party as well as every other Nazi sympathizer. The Democratic Party had KKK members too in the past. Is it fair to call them a neo-Nazi Party too?
You're comparing a span of decades to a span of four years. And I dispute the claim that every neo-Nazi influence has been expunged from the party, especially when control remains in the same family as the original leadership.
The FN is seeing a very rapid rise in support among French Jews. I don't see how you can call them a neo-Nazi party when (a) they've publicly taken a stand against anti-semitism, (b) they've expelled all Nazi sympathizers, and (c) a large number of French Jews support them.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-24/anti-immig...
Opinion polls like Ifop show Cukierman’s comments reflect a growing reality. Between the last two presidential elections in 2007 and 2012, Jewish voters supporting the FN, the party’s acronym, more than tripled. The shift came after Marine Le Pen took over the helm in 2011, steering clear of her party-founder father Jean-Marie Le Pen’s anti-Semitic stance. In a comment to Bloomberg on the side lines of a conference in Paris Tuesday, Marine Le Pen made common cause with France’s Jews.
“It’s the rise of Islamism that hits, hurts and kills,” she said. “It’s time to fight the danger threatening French Jews.” She welcomed Cukierman’s comments, saying “his words reveal an internal debate within the Jewish community. The comfortable idea that anti-Semitism is a right-wing theme is not true anymore and hasn’t been for decades.”
Their political stance is still pretty similar (albeit sugar coated to be easier to swallow). They are still a racist nationalist party. The only thing they've really stopped doing is making embarrassing revisionists statements.
The political stance is not similar at all. The party has taken a 180 turn on antisemitism for instance.
The reason why some French Jews for example support Front National is because its leaders see young Muslims as the greatest threat to Jews in France. "Fascists" are not the only ones supporting FN. See the link below.
So they are now better because they stopped discriminating against one group and advocate instead discriminating against another group?
I'm against discrimination in all its form, I'm against amalgamating a group of people and generalizing that the faults of a small minority are the faults of everyone in that group. Terrorist attacks were awful but they're a small minority of fanatics.
They just dress their brown uniforms in nicer colours and want to call it "Bleu Marine". Ms LePen had her father expelled because much less people would vote FN because of him __openly__ showing Nazi-think and disputing gas chambers, not because she would differ in opinion.
That is not even close to true. Le Pen has openly advocated for Israel, has slammed the BDS, has received numerous endorsements from European Jewish leaders. The FN is nothing like her father's, which is why it's winning popular support among many in France, including a large contingent of French Jews.
Again, I have nothing against people voicing their opinions. But I don't like people dragging their open source projects into this. What you end up with are some people getting offended or marginalized, because your views do not align with theirs, and some other people praising you - which is fine, but all of this is very unrelated to the software itself. What's the point? N++ will not influence anything by making this statement.
> What you end up with are some people getting offended or marginalized
I expect this is exactly the intention, to scare FN supporters away from the project and its community. Open source projects in particular are defined by the people involved with them, and the author does not wish to work (for free) with and for people who threaten his ability to live peacefully in his home country.
Does someone actually still use Notepad++? Everyone I know has moved on years ago and now with Atom and stuff there really doesn't seem to be any selling points.
I know a full browser isn't the same as a GUI toolkit, I'm trying to understand why you're drawing a line that you're OK with some software that uses some libraries, but you're not OK with software that uses others.
Not sure exactly what you mean by "a webview" (is this a specific library you're referring to?) but, as far as I know, software like atom does use a renderer to display HTML - that's the whole point.
Why? He didn't relicense his software to keep certain people from using it. He just got on facebook and ranted. Everyone's still perfectly free to ignore that and use his software, or not, or anything else.
I'm really confused why so many commenters seem so put off by this.
Why is this typical leftist? I see more of a typical angry reaction to something that happens in his country and somehow threatens his feeling of social security.
As a German let me be the first to point out that "democracy outcomes" aren't inherently morally superior.
Pre-WW2 Germany was a democracy. The NSDAP was a political party in a democratic system. Hitler was an elected official before Germany became a dictatorship.
This is why most democracies have constitutions and a separation of power. Without oversight holding it accountable, democracy is no different from mob rule.
He could have presented his case to his constituency and demonstrated that immigrants bring a lot of positive things to their new communities and persuaded them to change or soften their position without being rash or confrontational.
I didn't question his rights to protest however he deems fit. I just brought up the point that he could have done better to achieve his political goals without resorting to escalation or inflammatory rhetoric esp. since this is his first communique regarding this issue.
Brinkmanship and belligerence don't work most of the time and you have to seek a gradual and pragmatist approach to tackle social causes.
For Christ sake, this is a guy who writes a very useful text editor and hands it out for free. He's not the UN ambassador of global political reconciliation, as you seem to believe.
I'm also an immigrant, I'm living in Germany. It is probably not surprising to most that I despise all flavors of nationalism.
On the other hand, these are all irrelevant when I see someone abusing their status or reach to spread a political message, whatever the content. It's irritating.
"Hey freeloaders, you've been leeching off my work for a long time now but the time has come for you to pay me in endorsements of my political position or cease to use my product".
Because the status is gained through people trusting his/her programming skills, not political opinions.
As a side-note, yes, I also think it's an abuse of power when movie-stars make comments on what cause to support, therefore, IMHO, messing with peoples priorities.
In short, yes it's perfectly fine from a legal* and social (as long as you agree with them) standpoint that they do so but to me it feels like abuse.
> Starting from 1st October 2015, I do no longer permit the usage of my TREEFINDER software in the following EU countries: Germany, Austria, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Great Britain, Sweden, Denmark - the countries that together host most of the non-european immigrants.
Ah, exactly what I'm trying to point. Now we would have to find a liberal-friendly version of that software if we needed it? It would really hinder progress if this were to become a "thing". I find it destructive when authors of software with a "Google Reader effect" on their market (maybe this is not so for the "Treefinder" example, I'm talking in general), abuse their position to push for their political agenda.
In France the left is still feeling guilty about the 1938 Munich conference and the whole Pétain government, so we feel that if shit hits the fan, our prior behavior will be judged too.
Software licensing under politically motivated terms is not entirely unreasonable and I think we should start doing it more.
For instance, I totally disagree with the fact that open source software ends up powering weapons or are used as tools to repress and control
people.
GPL is one example of a socio-political cause enforced upon it's users.
So why not use licensing for other socio-political causes ?
My next open source library will definitely have clauses like:
- Cannot be used for terrorist activities of any kind. May God strike you down if you do.
- Cannot be used inside military apps. You agree to immediate capitulation the moment the first line of my code is executed inside a military appliance.
- Cannot be used by certain political parties, governments, etc.
I mean, it's nice to be nice to everyone, but fuck it. There're lots of assholes out there who's success is not in my interest or anyone else's interest, except a group of delusional leaders. I don't want to be a contributing factor to their success. Let them write their own software.
So free software developers can and should get creative with this. I don't know a lot about this particular Notepad++ case, but I totally agree with what the author did - it's his choice after all.
Remember that license is not something you just write and feel good about: with copyright laws, you are granting governments a permission to use violent force to enforce its terms. Make sure you really want to do this.
True. Copyright laws are a sneaky backdoor which I can use to install my own political agenda.
The government will be using the threat of violence to enforce my rules against violence. Muhaha :)
Similarly Wordweb (free version) asks 'if the user has flown in last one year', if the user answers 'yes', I think wordweb stops working. It's their way of showing environmental concern.
I’m no fan of any party that advocates xenophobia in any form, but this is no way to change minds. Still, I wouldn’t call it childish for the dev to use his platform to speak out against anti-immigration policy: calling someone “childish” is an unnecessarily condescending way of saying you think their actions aren’t well-thought-out. If you argue it’s an abuse of power, take a look at the Web’s response to SOPA/PIPA and tell me the objective difference.
During the SOPA/PIPA legislation, multiple websites went dark to protest against the legislation. People in HN applauded it. Why is it now childish for an opensource software developer to express his disappointment in this way?
What is the difference?
The FN is a fascist party, as an immigrant living in France the author is concerned about this development and I understand him. Plus, honestly for people who voted FN, they might as well follow their "thoughts" (prejudices) through and stop using software made by hated immigrants.
As a French person, I'm ashamed that this country will now join the ranks of Italy and Austria as a country that elected fascists leaders.
Probably different people were applauding it then from the people that call this childish now? HN is not an singular entity, an overmind made of people who think exactly the same.
True, but there were very few people calling it childish then (I don't remember any then) whereas in this thread there's a sizable minority that calls it childish.
It is not forbidden, but it was condemned many times including for talk about concentration camps or jews. For a long time, it was borderline.
And It has a very dark history:
- During the Algeria war, its founder (JM Le Pen), then in the army, used torture.
- In the 90', the security force of the FN (Skinheads) killed a man (throwing him in the Seine).
Nowadays, its communication is way less agressive but it is the same core.
Currently, of its voters :
- 92% thinks there are too many non-white people in france
- 36% of its voters thinks some races are superior to others.
FN played its card well : it convinced many french that their current economic distress is caused by immigrants, Europe and anything coming from outside. Its political agenda is a big pile of fantasy about the France of 50' (powerful and white). And its economic program is laughable.
Well, that would be fun if it wasn't so serious and so sad.
> During the SOPA/PIPA legislation, multiple websites went dark to protest against the legislation. People in HN applauded it. Why is it now childish for an opensource software developer to express his disappointment in this way?
If multiple websites asked you who you voted for in the last election and then went dark if you said "McCain", then you would have a point. Protesting harmful legislation is one thing. Refusing to do business with people based on their politics is another.
Cool. I'm also living in a different country than the country where I was born.
I also hate discrimination as much as the OP.
Sadly I don't believe the control is in our hands. Usually people choose their governments via media nowadays and media are really, really bad.
I would suggest the author to forbid TV/Websites using his editor for commercial purposes if they run political campaigns. That will surely have great impact than discriminating people that have been vacuumed by that fake rush of "loosing our nation", etc.
> Usually people choose their governments via media nowadays and media are really, really bad.
In the US maybe, but not in france. There's been very little pro-nationalist coverage in france, even after the attack. The rise of nationalism has more to do with the french observing the changes happening in their own neighborhoods and not wanting their country to become an Islamic nation.
>> people choose their governments via media nowadays...
I'm in the U.S. and this is quite true. Then again, it think it always has been. The difference now is that the media is owned by a the parties (or the parties and the media have become one) and simply push the party line rather than pushing a particular candidate. And the particular candidate that will move the nation farthest in the party/media's direction gets the most positive attention. And any candidate from the opposite side becomes "Hitler Satan" (TM).
>> ...media are really, really bad.
No, the media has become really, really good! It's just that what their good at is not what you think you want out of media. Once you realize the media exists to corral and direct you rather than inform you, you begin to see how truly good they've become.
People have their own POV. It should be respected.
There are other ways to voice intolerance for a particular political party or belief.
Arm twisting people because you have the best text editor doesn't sound right.
Wow, this is radical! Don't forget that politics is a miserable thing (although we'd love to dress it clean about the topics we care). There is enough politics in FOSS about the FOSS, we surely don't need to bring more about something else! Please abstain yourselves from following this regrettable example of Notepad++.
102 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 56.6 ms ] threadI don't think there's anything wrong with having a political opinion - especially if the opinion is, "People who hate me for no good reason are kind of assholes."
> as if their opinion mattered more
I don't think the author thinks their opinion matters MORE - I think the author thinks their opinion is worth voicing.
edit: jdjdhnxn edited their comment either while I was responding or after I had responded. I'm not sure which.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-02-24/anti-immig... Opinion polls like Ifop show Cukierman’s comments reflect a growing reality. Between the last two presidential elections in 2007 and 2012, Jewish voters supporting the FN, the party’s acronym, more than tripled. The shift came after Marine Le Pen took over the helm in 2011, steering clear of her party-founder father Jean-Marie Le Pen’s anti-Semitic stance. In a comment to Bloomberg on the side lines of a conference in Paris Tuesday, Marine Le Pen made common cause with France’s Jews.
“It’s the rise of Islamism that hits, hurts and kills,” she said. “It’s time to fight the danger threatening French Jews.” She welcomed Cukierman’s comments, saying “his words reveal an internal debate within the Jewish community. The comfortable idea that anti-Semitism is a right-wing theme is not true anymore and hasn’t been for decades.”
The reason why some French Jews for example support Front National is because its leaders see young Muslims as the greatest threat to Jews in France. "Fascists" are not the only ones supporting FN. See the link below.
http://www.europe1.fr/mediacenter/emissions/l-interview-de-j...
I'm against discrimination in all its form, I'm against amalgamating a group of people and generalizing that the faults of a small minority are the faults of everyone in that group. Terrorist attacks were awful but they're a small minority of fanatics.
I expect this is exactly the intention, to scare FN supporters away from the project and its community. Open source projects in particular are defined by the people involved with them, and the author does not wish to work (for free) with and for people who threaten his ability to live peacefully in his home country.
I draw the line in everything that uses a webview for purposes unrelated to rendering HTML.
Not sure exactly what you mean by "a webview" (is this a specific library you're referring to?) but, as far as I know, software like atom does use a renderer to display HTML - that's the whole point.
This is where I draw the line, I only use web apps when no native options are available.
I'm really confused why so many commenters seem so put off by this.
Pre-WW2 Germany was a democracy. The NSDAP was a political party in a democratic system. Hitler was an elected official before Germany became a dictatorship.
This is why most democracies have constitutions and a separation of power. Without oversight holding it accountable, democracy is no different from mob rule.
He could have presented his case to his constituency and demonstrated that immigrants bring a lot of positive things to their new communities and persuaded them to change or soften their position without being rash or confrontational.
Very disappointing and counterproductive.
Brinkmanship and belligerence don't work most of the time and you have to seek a gradual and pragmatist approach to tackle social causes.
On the other hand, these are all irrelevant when I see someone abusing their status or reach to spread a political message, whatever the content. It's irritating.
"Hey freeloaders, you've been leeching off my work for a long time now but the time has come for you to pay me in endorsements of my political position or cease to use my product".
As a side-note, yes, I also think it's an abuse of power when movie-stars make comments on what cause to support, therefore, IMHO, messing with peoples priorities.
In short, yes it's perfectly fine from a legal* and social (as long as you agree with them) standpoint that they do so but to me it feels like abuse.
* I am not a lawyer.
> Starting from 1st October 2015, I do no longer permit the usage of my TREEFINDER software in the following EU countries: Germany, Austria, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Great Britain, Sweden, Denmark - the countries that together host most of the non-european immigrants.
I guess there's some truth about what they say about genius and insanity.
For instance, I totally disagree with the fact that open source software ends up powering weapons or are used as tools to repress and control people.
GPL is one example of a socio-political cause enforced upon it's users. So why not use licensing for other socio-political causes ?
My next open source library will definitely have clauses like:
- Cannot be used for terrorist activities of any kind. May God strike you down if you do.
- Cannot be used inside military apps. You agree to immediate capitulation the moment the first line of my code is executed inside a military appliance.
- Cannot be used by certain political parties, governments, etc.
I mean, it's nice to be nice to everyone, but fuck it. There're lots of assholes out there who's success is not in my interest or anyone else's interest, except a group of delusional leaders. I don't want to be a contributing factor to their success. Let them write their own software.
So free software developers can and should get creative with this. I don't know a lot about this particular Notepad++ case, but I totally agree with what the author did - it's his choice after all.
He just told certain people not to use it. They're not under any obligation to listen to him.
Only one documented exceptions : Douglas Crockford “I give permission for IBM, its customers, partners, and minions, to use JSLint for evil.” http://dev.hasenj.org/post/3272592502/ibm-and-its-minions
More info - see HN archivum : JSLINT + EVIL https://hn.algolia.com/?query=jslint%20evil&sort=byPopularit...
http://futurism.com/18922-2/
What is the difference?
The FN is a fascist party, as an immigrant living in France the author is concerned about this development and I understand him. Plus, honestly for people who voted FN, they might as well follow their "thoughts" (prejudices) through and stop using software made by hated immigrants.
As a French person, I'm ashamed that this country will now join the ranks of Italy and Austria as a country that elected fascists leaders.
No it's not, if it was it would have been forbidden long ago according to french laws.
I suggest you check the definition of fascism, you'll be surprised who currently fits in the definition in France.
And It has a very dark history: - During the Algeria war, its founder (JM Le Pen), then in the army, used torture. - In the 90', the security force of the FN (Skinheads) killed a man (throwing him in the Seine).
Nowadays, its communication is way less agressive but it is the same core.
Currently, of its voters : - 92% thinks there are too many non-white people in france - 36% of its voters thinks some races are superior to others.
FN played its card well : it convinced many french that their current economic distress is caused by immigrants, Europe and anything coming from outside. Its political agenda is a big pile of fantasy about the France of 50' (powerful and white). And its economic program is laughable.
Well, that would be fun if it wasn't so serious and so sad.
If multiple websites asked you who you voted for in the last election and then went dark if you said "McCain", then you would have a point. Protesting harmful legislation is one thing. Refusing to do business with people based on their politics is another.
I also hate discrimination as much as the OP.
Sadly I don't believe the control is in our hands. Usually people choose their governments via media nowadays and media are really, really bad.
I would suggest the author to forbid TV/Websites using his editor for commercial purposes if they run political campaigns. That will surely have great impact than discriminating people that have been vacuumed by that fake rush of "loosing our nation", etc.
In the US maybe, but not in france. There's been very little pro-nationalist coverage in france, even after the attack. The rise of nationalism has more to do with the french observing the changes happening in their own neighborhoods and not wanting their country to become an Islamic nation.
I'm in the U.S. and this is quite true. Then again, it think it always has been. The difference now is that the media is owned by a the parties (or the parties and the media have become one) and simply push the party line rather than pushing a particular candidate. And the particular candidate that will move the nation farthest in the party/media's direction gets the most positive attention. And any candidate from the opposite side becomes "Hitler Satan" (TM).
>> ...media are really, really bad.
No, the media has become really, really good! It's just that what their good at is not what you think you want out of media. Once you realize the media exists to corral and direct you rather than inform you, you begin to see how truly good they've become.
what he said is worst than anything the present FN has said.