Wikileaks can only work with the material they have been given and have always tried to maximize it's impact as part of their enabling role as a publisher. I don't see how in this regard temporal optimization differs from timed release, proxy release or fundamental analysis (such as statistics), all of which they have offered in the past. As for 'agenda', this is like saying the organization has a 'purpose' - to quote their about page: "the analysis and publication of large datasets of censored or otherwise restricted official materials involving war, spying and corruption".
There is the troubling fact that emails tracing the flow of funds from Syria to Russian banks vanished from the "Syrian files" email dump sent by hackers to WikiLeaks, despite the fact that the hackers considered those the Crown Jewels of their data exfil.
WL has never explained why they didn't publish those emails, though they did blame the press for reporting what they called Hillary Clinton's "neo-McCarthyist conpiracy theories," which was ... somewhat nonresponsive to the allegation.
{{citation-needed}} ... http://www.dailydot.com/layer8/wikileaks-syria-files-syria-r... claims the source of this rumour is "leaked US court documents" of "Manhattan" that are "sealed" (as if they were authoritative on information in the possession of hackers and their thoughts) ... the article's two authors asked Wikileaks for comment, Wikileaks said this "is speculation and it is false". The journalists in question work for a b-grade US populist rag, and the US routinely monitors all international financial transactions via the SWIFT system, and has done so since at least 2001 (official letterhead response of the EU to a FOIA I made), as well as credit/debit card systems, Western Union, etc. Given this background, draw your own conclusions.
"Ecuador granted political asylum to Julian Assange in 2012 on the basis of their legitimate fears of political persecution because of his journalistic activities as editor of WikiLeaks.
"In recent weeks, WikiLeaks has published a large number of documents which have an impact on the election campaign in the United States. The decision to make public such information is the sole responsibility of the Wikileaks organization.
"The Government of Ecuador respects the principle of non-intervention in the affairs of other countries, it does not interfere in electoral processes in progress or support a candidate in particular.
"In that sense, Ecuador, in exercise of its sovereign right, has temporarily restricted access to part of its communications system in its embassy in the UK.
"This temporary restriction does not prevent the WikiLeaks organization to carry out his journalistic activities.
"Ecuador, consistent with its tradition of defending human rights, especially with the victims of political persecution reaffirms granted asylum to Julian Assange and reiterates its intention to safeguard their lives and physical integrity until you can move to a safe place.
"Ecuador's foreign policy responds only to sovereign decisions and not yield to pressure from other states."
I applaud the Ecuadorian government's attempt to at least distance themselves from this latest attempt by Wikileaks to influence our democratic process.
While in the past I viewed WL as a crucial part of openness and democracy, I'm very suspicious of their current sources, and their intentions. Not to mention Assange's personal interests (he expressed hatred towards Hillary - wonder what he thinks of Trump).
>"The Government of Ecuador respects the principle of non-intervention in the affairs of other countries".
A not so subtle hint to the fact that our country does not. For years we've meddled in the elections of countries around the world - directly and indirectly. We are still doing it in some parts, overtly supporting regimes that we like, and covertly derailing potential candidates who we assume will not play by our rules.
What about the NYTimes's attempt to influence our democratic process by publishing Trump's tax returns? "While in the past I viewed the media as a crucial part of openness and democracy, I'm very suspicious of their current sources, and their intentions. Not to mention the journalists' personal interests (many have expressed hatred towards Trump)."
(Not that I'm a Trump supporter -- I just wonder if you can distinguish the above from your views on Wikileaks. I suspect you may just feel the way you do given your thoughts on Trump.)
Yes, The US Govt. would never have an agenda.
I dont regard Russia as some democratic bastion, quite the contrary, but let's not pretend that the U.S is a democratic bastion, its more of an oligarchy compared to most industrialized countries with legalized bribery.
Even the oligarchy has multiple factions. In the most partisan era since the civil war how could the White House expect to release a statement that Russia is attempting to subvert our elections without being called out as fraud? They either have no dignity or are absolutely certain. You can say a lot about Obama but he certainly has dignity.
Remember how certain the US government was about chemical and biological weapons in Iraq?
I do not consider the US government a credible source in these matters. Especially since the pointing to Russia seemed more about distracting from the content of the documents WikiLeaks released.
Traditionally, presidential candidates release their tax returns. All candidates have for decades. The information in them is considered of public interest. The mundane internal communication of a campaign is not. So no, one of these things is not at all like the other, the distinction is easy to make.
Not just publishing his tax returns, but spinning the rather boring fact that businesses can carry forward losses as an evil tax avoidance scheme he could use to dodge paying taxes on all the money he apparently made (if he never actually turned a net profit), and even as some kind of government bailout not available to ordinary people.
Not to mention Assange's personal interests (he expressed hatred towards Hillary
Serious question, was that before or after he found out that Hillary wanted to "drone" him?
Honestly, for or against Hillary or anyone else, I am happy that there is some amount of transparency going on and we are learning about it. We need more of this.
I applaud the Ecuadorian government's attempt to at least distance themselves from this latest attempt by Wikileaks to influence our democratic process.
How can you say that with a straight face? Legal SuperPACs, campaign contributions, lobbying groups, the home of commercial 'PR' (propaganda) and the world's most highly litigious society. You guys are the least democratic of any self-titled democracy today. Wikileaks publishes information that enables people to make informed decisions. This is the original purpose of democracy. Chalk and cheese?
I also wonder also how you can say "Wikileaks is meddling in US political process" while admitting the US has made a global habit of meddling in others' affairs (including: direct political coup, arming rebel groups, placing puppets in power, supplying torture equipment and training, etc.). It makes no sense.
Informed decisions? Dripping random out of context emails to try and generate a conspiracy or uninformed internet rage weeks before an election is not at all trying to inform the public. Assange lost his neutral credibility long ago. What happened to dumping all data right after it is received? That isn't happening this time because he doesn't like big government and thus doesn't like Clinton.
On the one hand you criticize Wikileaks for publishing all the data they have received, implying it is 'random' and 'out of context', and that they are acting out of a want to 'generate a conspiracy or uninformed internet rage'. This implies that you would prefer they edit and interpret sources before publication.
Unfortunately, on the other hand you want them to be 'neutral' and 'credible'.
I believe Wikileaks does a good job of maintaining the middle ground by providing both raw documents and context and analysis. Your suggestion that they are generating conspiracies does not stand up to analysis: by providing raw documents they do the opposite.
With regards to immediacy, Wikileaks has explained their processes in the past with regards to source validation. One of the most obvious attacks against the organization would be publishing false information through them to discredit them publicly. Therefore all information received must be carefully researched and validated, as well as anonymized, before publication.
They lost credibility again this time around with daily drips right before the election. Anyone not biased realizes it is obvious they are trying to hurt Clinton.
Dumping all they had at once when they received it would at least appear to be less of an agenda. They aren't providing "raw" documents since they are doing it now drip by drip, again trying to rile up uninformed folks right before the election.
The commenter's point is still true. It appears targeted straight at Clinton while Trump has plenty of dirt they could report. The timing is also not a coincidence as Assange previously did shock and awe campaigns like Collateral Murder. He knows what he's doing.
Personally, though, he lost credibility for me after how he ditched Domsheit-Burg talking like a crazed egomaniac after deceiving many into thinking he had more staff and protection for them than he really did. Now, he's an egomaniac and has a strong, political bias. Practically graduated to position of one of corporate media's talking heads. Edit to add: just with more muckracking!
People been reporting shit on Trump for years but it's scattered everywhere. If I was accused of shilling, I'd put that together into a report slamming him too. Plus solicit any dirt Republican insiders have on him in venues they probably read. Maybe that's just fair and impartial people like myself, though. ;)
I think the more mainstream media sources have the Trump stuff covered already. Since they have done a poor job releasing and publicizing information on Clinton, I think wikileaks is providing a valuable service.
I assume since many mainstream sources show a strong bias, they also lost credibility with you?
"I assume since many mainstream sources show a strong bias, they also lost credibility with you?"
The difference is they're profit generating machines we all know is bullshit where Wikileaks claims to be an activist organization fighting to get the truth out to take down business and government corruption. Then gets really focused on one political party to benefit of another corrupt party. I definitely will call that out.
It's fine if they want to be just another biased, ego/profit-centric outlet. We'll just add them to list of sources, factor in bias, and try to determine truth. People will just have to stop treating it like it's trustworthy or an activist organization.
Bias is acceptable if you're earning a profit? The "that we all know is bullshit" bit is highly debatable, and doesn't really reflect the reality of news consumption for most Americans [1].
How does releasing information on one party and not the other invalidate their position as activists? No information on Republicans means WikiLeaks no longer cares about fighting corruption and increasing transparency? And that they're somehow profit driven because of that too?
Should they have looked for information on all of the detainees at guantanamo when they released the guantanamo files, just to avoid the possibility of perceived bias?
"How does releasing information on one party and not the other invalidate their position as activists? "
A consistent series of attacks focusing on the Left while the Right is doing lots of damage makes them activists against the Left specifically. Different than activists for civil rights or honest government/business.
" No information on Republicans means WikiLeaks no longer cares about fighting corruption and increasing transparency?"
It's odd that we see revelations and reports on both of them consistently from groups like The Guardian and The Intercept but not this activist.
"And that they're somehow profit driven because of that too?"
He was before that. Constantly fund-raising then charging people for little Assange parties. These days he seems to be driven by ego and/or hate of government. His leaks and reports in the old days were a mix of evil government and business.
"Should they have looked for information on all of the detainees at guantanamo when they released the guantanamo files"
Now you're just making stuff up. That's nothing like a supposedly neutral organization covering two, known-dirty candidates who are constantly pulling stunts.
> Different than activists for civil rights or honest government/business.
If you perceive the Right or Left to be the greater threat given the information that you have, why do you have any obligation to report on them equally? IE how 75-100% of CNNs front page is anti-Trump stories on any given day.
> It's odd that we see revelations and reports on both of them consistently from groups like The Guardian and The Intercept but not this activist.
Why?
> Constantly fund-raising then charging people for little Assange parties.
Fundraising doesn't mean profit. 501c3s also fund raise. As I'm sure you and basically everyone else on this site is aware, running an org that's active in multiple countries over the course of a decade isn't free.
> His leaks and reports in the old days were a mix of evil government and business.
The current Podesta emails somehow aren't? Have you read them at all? For instance, the stories about Podesta's dealings in Russia [1].
This email [2] includes an attached legal bill regarding formation of Leonidio LLC. Is that not government and business corruption?
Your claim has no validity unless you really believe Wikileaks would not have also published Trump leaks if they had their hands on them.
Yes, it's likely the Russians are feeding them their info. But so fucking what? Wikileaks is just doing their job, and they have no obligation to play nice to Clinton while she has run a regime that has systematically attacked and denied Assange's ability to get a fair go in America.
Sure they're trying to hurt Clinton. Dissemination of information is entirely okay, and this idea that Wikileaks has an OBLIGATION to remain "neutral" is stupid, picking the least damaging presidential candidate isn't some kind of activity where we all have to be "fair". If you aren't getting violent, there is no reason why you can't release whatever information you wish.
>They lost credibility again this time around with daily drips right before the election. Anyone not biased realizes it is obvious they are trying to hurt Clinton.
Do you make the same claim about the women who accused Donald Trump of sexual assault the same day that leak was released? Or the person who released the "Grab her in the pussy" audio at that time? For sure they are biased, but everything they seem to release turns out to be real.
I saw this come up in the Thiel-related thread yesterday but didn't say anything but I will say it now: the right time for the release of the sexual assault reports for Trump was during the repub primaries. Releasing it now has not seemed to hurt him one bit in the eyes of his ardent fans.
There's hasn't been that much movement since they came out, and even for the movement that has occurred, it's pretty hard to pull out the effects of the comments and allegations from things like the debates.
Fine with me. I'm just rebutting the constant "they aren't out to get Hillary, they simply don't have material on Trump. Or Russia. Or..." and "of course they have published personal information of regular, non-prominent citizens. They publish everything" by the Wikileaks supporters
>"How can you say that with a straight face? Legal SuperPACs, campaign contributions, lobbying groups, the home of commercial 'PR' (propaganda) and the world's most highly litigious society. You guys are the least democratic of any self-titled democracy today."
Oh really? Do you know the definition of a democracy? A democracy is simply a form of government that gives power to the people. It comes from Greek words "demos" meaning "the people" and "kratia" meaning power or authority. A democracy doesn't specify which people or even specifically what powers. It also doesn't say anything about about money or influence. Now is there too much money in US politics? Of course. Does extreme partisanship hinder progress? Absolutely. But none of these things mean that the US does not have a democracy. There might not always be a great choice of candidates but U.S citizens choose which least rotten of the bunch gets to represent them. No question about it. So yes that power is vested in the citizens. To state that the US is the least democratic of any democracy today is just absurd. So according to your statement the US lags behind Russia, Nigeria and Democratic Republic of Congo?
I think its odd that the OP simply saying he applauds the Ecuadorians efforts to distance themselves from Wikileaks elicited such a total condemnation from you.
Not in the US, this power is granted to the Electoral College.
> To state that the US is the least democratic of any democracy today is just absurd
Of course if you compare to extreme examples like Russia, Nigeria and the Democratic Republic of Congo, the US is a heaven of democracy. Compared to most western countries, it falls behind.
Watching the events from Europe, the thing about USA and democracy is that it's blatantly obvious how bad things are, all while your media and governments are acting like everything is great and USA is the greatest country in the world. Nobody acts like things are great in Russia, Nigeria, or Congo.
USA is living a lie that hurts almost all its citizens on a daily basis, and there is nothing the people can do. USA might be a democracy but there is no power in the hands of the people anymore. The choice of continuing this corrupt, broken institution is what Hillary represents. Massive change that might break all kinds of stuff world wide because of the crazy that he is, is what Trump represents. I don't think anybody but the people benefitting directly want those two as candidates, but there is nothing anybody can do about it. The people of USA just have to take it, all while being lied to by the very people that should be working for them but obviously aren't: the media and the government.
Yeah, worst democracy in the world is probably on point, in my opinion.
>USA might be a democracy but there is no power in the hands of the people anymore.
Question: How can we (I live in the US) still be a democracy if there is no power in the hands of the people?
I think either the US has slowly become an oligarchy[1], or it has always been an oligarchy that was merely good at pretending to be a democratic republic. I would vote if I thought it would have an effect, but sadly our voting process is inscrutable. I, like many others, pray for a revolution here soon.
The patricians, in their minds, felt the Roman Republic was "democratic", where consuls (and other powerful officials) could only be other patricians, and intermarriage between plebeians and patricians was forbidden. I imagine that's how the various elites of the US feel as well. (Hint: because the system benefits them)
Obviously, the plebeians felt otherwise and either started a revolt or simply refused to participate in their corrupted system, until reforms were made.
It's the same pattern repeating itself throughout history, when a seemingly benevolent system becomes corrupted by refusing to protect its most vulnerable populace and uphold its rule of law.
Don't eschew your civic duty, though. Even if you feel your vote "does not make a difference", you empower those who will one day remove that right from you. You're not using it anyway, right?
They will remove that power regardless of whether I vote. Bernie should have won the Democratic primaries, but the Democratic establishment shut him down.
I want real power. My political views are not represented. No single candidate could ever represent me, because my opinions are minorities in many ways. The things I care about are not the issues that the media is pushing.
A government that cared about me would find some way for me to be represented. Perhaps a multiparty system like France. Perhaps the ability to directly vote on a small number of issues, instead of being forced into picking a candidate that supports 20% of my ideas over a candidate that supports 8% of them.
> I don't think anybody but the people benefitting directly want those two as candidates, but there is nothing anybody can do about it.
Both Clinton and Trump were nominated as Presidential candidates by the voting public through a democratic process. Voters will choose among Trump, Clinton, Stein, Johnson, and other candidates in the Presidential election on November 8th. If voters don't want to elect Trump or Clinton, they have other candidates they can vote for. The reality is that most people want either Trump or Clinton as President.
Can you remind me how Prime Ministers are chosen in your country? What voters choose them to be PM? How important is your national government relative to the national government in the US, domestically speaking? Are state and provincial governments as powerful as they are in the US? Do you elect all your state and local offices, like we do in the US?
The US has many problems, but "insufficiently democratic" is not one of them.
> The reality is that most people want either Trump or Clinton
Is that actually the reality? My impression is that most people do not want either Trump nor Clinton but they want one a lot less than the other so they'll vote against that candidate rather than voting for one.
Say what you want. Your government and your election is controlled by money and corporations.
You are correct that USAs leaders have much more power than the leaders of my country. I will give you that. Your elected officials are probably better power people than mine, but I think that my elected officials are probably much better people than yours.
That is not a compliment in favor of your country. Quite the contrary.
> Your government and your election is controlled by money and corporations.
Do "money" or "corporations" get votes? Or are people persuaded to vote in ways you don't like by people with money? There's a big difference.
> You are correct that USAs leaders have much more power than the leaders of my country.
That's not what I mean. In domestic terms, the Presidency is a very weak office. In many respects, the President is a figurehead that mostly matters for foreign policy purposes.
And again: who decided your PM would be PM? Voters? Or was it an internal decision made by a party without voter input? How can you claim that the US is less democratic than that?
"And again: who decided your PM would be PM? Voters? Or was it an internal decision made by a party without voter input? How can you claim that the US is less democratic than that?"
It's not a perfect system, either, but the PM has to be among those elected to office - it's entirely possible (though rare) for a party to win the election, and their candidate for PM to lose their seat (and thus be ineligible).
It does also offer a semblance of "honesty" or vested interest. There's an accountability - if you as the PM are not capable of running a platform or country that makes other members of your party electable, they can and will remove you. So, at least in theory, there's a feeling of representative power. Most party-based removals from positions have come directly from the people, unhappy with performance, and then groups of politicians saying "Yeah, we're out of a job if we follow you/keep down this road".
It does also have Survivor-like elements, for better, and worse.
But the candidate for PM is known by the public, so in a sense it's de facto voted for.
Just like in the US, to rephrase your last: "Who decided your President would be President? Voters? Or was it an internal decision by an electoral college who in some cases is not obligated to respect the wishes of those they represent? How can you claim that to be democratic?"
As someone who has lived substantial periods in both Australia and the US, I have a decent perspective.
There is no comparison between the electoral college, which largely exists only as a formality, and the way intraparty politics work in parliamentary democracies, which in general operate in the least democratic way possible - a set of political elites choose the PM. In a parallel universe, HC is exactly the candidate we'd get in such a system - there's a reason why there were no serious contenders in the primary against Clinton.
You've also not address my points about state and local politics in the US, and the limited power of the Presidency in general that make the position not that all important to the working of the government.
> It comes from Greek words "demos" meaning "the people" and "kratia" meaning power or authority. A democracy doesn't specify which people
Of course it does -- the people. Demos, not anthropos.
> But none of these things mean that the US does not have a democracy.
And here too, the words "least democratic", rather than e.g. "not democratic at all, in any sense, ever", were likely chosen for a reason.
> I think its odd that the OP simply saying he applauds the Ecuadorians efforts to distance themselves from Wikileaks elicited such a total condemnation from you.
I consider it obedience signalling in the face of totalitarianism. I'm fine with "total condemnation" of that. I actually expect it from anyone I wouldn't pity and fight.
"Oh really? Do you know the definition of a democracy? A democracy is simply a form of government that gives power to the people."
The candidates are self-selected based on how much money they have plus connection with corrupt parties who operate on bribes from corporations, special interest groups, and rich people. The people get information on these candidates from highly-biased media that lie about other candidates to drum up ratings for advertising revenue while also run by people in capitalist class. Territories, phrasing of questions on ballet, and voter rights are used to filter a chunk of votes that may threaten status quo. They votes are often entered into machines that are easy to hack with consistent refusal to eliminate that risk. These votes determine which "electors," not Presidents, are decided. These electoral candidates were already chosen by prior, political parties. Depending on state law, those electors will then vote for candidate people voted for or vote against people's choice.
This total process is what many Americans call an election system where the "people" decide who runs the country. They're participating in a mass delusion. It's clear that the people have limited participation in the above process. The final choice isn't made by the people at all. Some democracy...
> I also wonder also how you can say "Wikileaks is meddling in US political process" while admitting the US has made a global habit of meddling in others' affairs
How is that a question? It's true. Of course he can say that. Wikileaks is meddling in the US electoral process. That the US also does it in no way changes that simple fact. The fact that the US does something bad does not mean that some other organization suddenly didn't do the thing it did. That's what makes no sense.
I don't mean to excuse any of the terrible things the US has done, I'm just pointing out basic reality here.
And I applaud Ecuador for taking the high ground here. I hope the US learns something from that.
If that's true you can hardly blame him. What a crazy world we live in with so little respect for human life.
Edit: As far as I can tell it was an unsubstantiated rumor. I wouldn't be surprised if it was said but the best thing we have to go on is her body language in a video while questioned about it and I'm certainly not going to go through the trouble of compiling videos of her body language and attempting to correlate them with confirmed lies.
Yeah, looking into it more it was an unsubstantiated rumor. When she was asked about it she seemed to be lying but that easily could have been disdain for what she perceived to be a silly line of questioning.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was nothing more than a joke made in poor taste if it was ever even said at all. At this point I don't know why the government would even bother anyway. The cat is out of the bag and if they start killing people like Assange they're just going to assure the next group does it anonymously from the shadows.
It would be much simpler to do little things here and there to create unresolved questions about the integrity of Assange/Wikileaks and let half the country fight with the other half about that instead of the leaks. Honestly I'm not even sure why he even did it so openly in the first place. If a powerful nation is willing to spend money to engineer controversy you're screwed.
Can you please link to a quote where he "expressed hatred" for Hillary? Ideally one that is dated before the point that she joking-not-really called for his murder via drone?
Can you please link to a quote where he "expressed hatred" for Hillary? Ideally one that is dated before the point that she joking-not-really called for his murder via drone?
Telling only one side of the truth is a form of a lie.
If you are actively soliciting, and distributing dirt on only one of the parties involved in an election, though it may be the entire truth, you are not being HONEST.
Especially if the information you are releasing was providing to you by a malicious 3rd party State who/which is releasing it to you in the hopes of influencing the election so that a candidate preferable to that 3d state comes into power (Russia).
You are coming across as being disingenuous, I fear. A side of the truth is just a part of it, but using "side" instead conveys the complex aftereffects that revealing a part of some data (the "truth", if you will) can have.
If you have damaging data on two people who are enemies of each other, publishing dirt on one but not the other is helping the other person -- taking a side, IOW.
Choose any link from a Google search for "assange trump worse" you deem trustworthy. All kinds of news sources across the political spectrum have reported it.
First hit TheHill - the opposite of my trust pool - seems to agree with what I said. Not "Trump lied to the FBI and is funded by the same people who fund ISIS".
You didn't claim "Trump lied to the FBI and is funded by the same people who fund ISIS"
You claimed "he had nothing on Trump". And the links clearly counter that.
That's my last reply to you. I don't like my discussion partners to sleazily try and retroactively change their claims to something nobody ever talked about when shown counter arguments. That's not an honest mistake, that's simply dishonest and a waste of time.
Based on your inability to provide a citation my immediate assumption is that your assertion is untrue. This is generally a reasonable heuristic. If only for the sake of convincing bystanders, can you please provide a citation for this claim?
Not really. The way I see it (and what I meant), is that although truthful facts can be presented in a way that favours one side, the presentation does not change the value of truth itself. Claiming that "truth has a side" is an attempt to disqualify information because you don't like it, and should not be accepted as valid reasoning by well-thinking people.
publishing dirt on one but not the other is helping the other person -- taking a side, IOW.
Then the publisher has a side, not the truth itself.
> Especially if the information you are releasing was providing to you by a malicious 3rd party [...] who/which is releasing it to you in the hopes of influencing the election [...]
Didn't this already happen to Trump as well, and aren't we glad we know?
> If you are actively soliciting, and distributing dirt on only one of the parties involved in an election, though it may be the entire truth, you are not being HONEST.
By this logic we could say Snowden was not being HONEST because he didn't dish us any dirt on the FBI, or Russia, or any of those other Organizations / countries that he simply doesn't have dirt on.
wikileaks has access to information and they are sharing it. That's important.
How long has Clinton been in the game, receiving a fortune from Saudi Arabia? That's why there is so much dirt to dish. Everyone has been familiar with Trump's dirt since The Apprentice.
Unfortunately, my support of Snowden has waned the more I learned that...
A) He actively pursued information to steal (rather than coming across it naturally and deciding he had a moral obligation to reveal it)
B) He ignored the pursuit of information damaging to any countries other than the US.
C) He shared information with the Chinese government (and possibly the Russian government).
I still think he is a hero who should be pardoned and lauded, but...he's a deeply flawed one.
Funny how its OK until its all to close to a preferred interest is Clinton or the nebulous "us election process'
Perhaps if the us media did their jobs reporting on this stuff then there wouldn't be all this drama. Though if anyone has tried to influence election it is the "press" who likewise sit on stories - trump pussy tape, bush DUI as just two examples.
That same hypothetically unbiased press is quite good at playing team red or blue cheerleader directly or indirectly by access to like minded travelers. And let's not forget the bipolar ignore/bash any and all minor party candidates.
As to sourcing of material who cares? Its the facts revealed that matter. This is not some whispered in the ear dark of night off the record hit job.
Yeah the Guardian and New York Times really missed the boat not hacking John Podesta's email so we could learn how to make the perfect risotto. Or doxxing thousands of innocent Turkish citizens in a cache of "Government emails" that wasn't Government emails at all but hundreds of thousand of public forum posts, less than three hundred of which had government addresses. Transparency is important and good. Good, hard hitting journalism is more vital and necessary than ever. Julian Assange and Wikileaks are not journalists and not filling any civic void, just Assange's megalomaniacal need for attention as an information broker of other people's secrets.
There are literally dozens of scandal-level revelations in those documents. The fact that you're too lazy to find out about them doesn't change that. Try reading non-US-propaganda once in a while.
I haven't read them all (there are thousands) but the emails I have read are mostly benign and reveal things about her and her team that perhaps while embarrassing or even impolitic, are hardly criminal.
“I signed a conflict of interest policy as a board member of cgi ... Oddly, wjc does not have to sign such a document even though he is personally paid by 3 cgi sponsors, gets many expensive gifts from them, some that are at home etc.”
Do you think conflicts of interest at the highest peaks of federal government are "benign" and "hardly criminal"? This is just one example of really shady stuff revealed in the leaks. IMO the Clinton Foundation sells political influence and that's illegal.
The sourcing is a problem because the titulating nature of the sourcing becomes the story instead of whatever the story is.
The revelations in the Podesta emails has been pretty lame. There's not a lot of surprises, but lots of chaff that will create some personally embarrassing moments for people.
My impression is that Wikileaks is more about Assange's ego these days than about legitimately informing the public about censorship and government crimes. Here's an insightful interview with one of the people who left due to internal conflicts: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/wikileaks-spokes...
I was thinking the same thing. Call it a cynical extrapolation of Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to benevolence which can be explained by self-interest.
> While in the past I viewed WL as a crucial part of openness and democracy, I'm very suspicious of their current sources, and their intentions.
To be fair, the stated goal of WikiLeaks/Assange is to destroy the ability of governments to keep secrets by raising the cost of keeping secrets.
His original methods for accomplishing this goal was to enable leaks with the hope of creating an out of control spiral: disillusioned insider leaks -> government cracks down, spends more money, creates more onerous secrecy -> more insiders disillusioned, become leakers.
It kind of seems like this strategy failed -- there hasn't been a runaway spiral of leakers, and the ability of governments to keep secrets hasn't been eliminated.
Assuming the information Wikileaks is releasing is misinformation, whether or not Assange knows for sure, this isn't actually a bad strategy. Releasing plausible misinformation also raises the cost of keeping secrets. This attack only works because the internal communications are secret. If they were never secret, and anyone could peruse them, you couldn't release falsified versions. By keeping them secret, the organizations/governments have made themselves vulnerable to this attack, which raises the cost of keeping secrets.
It makes way more sense to think of WikiLeaks as Setec Astronomy, an anti-secrecy group, than a news organization seeking to inform the public.
Just one clarification. Hillary Clinton's private email server is not governmental internal communications. If they were, hilary would have lost her access to classified info. Just like I would face action if I started talking about my company's IP on my private email.
> I applaud the Ecuadorian government's attempt to at least distance themselves from this latest attempt by Wikileaks to influence our democratic process.
> While in the past I viewed WL as a crucial part of openness and democracy, I'm very suspicious of their current sources, and their intentions. Not to mention Assange's personal interests (he expressed hatred towards Hillary - wonder what he thinks of Trump).
The hypocrisy in these threads is unreal. Would you feel the same way if things were being released about Trump? You only care about openness and democracy as long as it supports your views.
"Would you feel the same way if things were being released about Trump? "
I would. The election campaigns are manipulative enough as is. I don't want hackers in our election machines or running smear campaigns targeted on one candidate.
> I don't want hackers in our election machines or running smear campaigns targeted on one candidate.
Those two things are not comparable. Hacking election machines to actually change the vote is not what is happening. People are finding information and releasing it. So in your view the Billy Bush tape should have been suppressed? Should all negative campaign ads be stopped? Should MSNBC and FOX news be taken off the air for a period before the election?
It's a slippery slope we head down when talking about not having information released.
So you would rather that all people (not just you) have less information for making a a massive decision that will influence the future of the country for 4 years?
Americans had all the information they needed with Hillary's voting record and Trump's business record plus their prior behavior toward America in general and individual human beings. I filtered them out early based on these things in favor of early candidates who actually did things that benefited their constituents with less damaging corruption. What people do vs what they say, how they dress, whatever superficial crap. It's my radical theory on getting better politicians. That people care what professional liars with damaging, track records are promising them is the problem.
That's they've both openly mocked and might fight many key freedoms I have from speech to search/seizure to due process means I'm certainly not putting either in control of FBI, DHS, IRS, DOD, etc. I'm voting for whoever is left on the ballot besides them in protest. I don't need to know anything more about them. I'm barely watching the election debates as they're just embarrassing.
Also the irony that is a South American country saying "We will not interfere with the US electoral process" when the United States has backed coups, rebellions, drug wars, etc., in efforts to manipulate theirs...
Don't get me wrong, the high ground is endearing. Except it apparently took a call from John Kerry to do so.
In many cases, the US has only had the support of a few, in some cases minuscule number of people. In many cases they had no consent from either the government or the populace.
Your example implies that the US was only in South America at the behest of the countries in question to do _their_ bidding, not the US's.
Also the egregious irony that is a South American country saying "We will not interfere with the US electoral process" when the United States has backed coups, rebellions, drug wars, etc., in efforts to manipulate theirs...
> While in the past I viewed WL as a crucial part of openness and democracy, I'm very suspicious of their current sources, and their intentions. Not to mention Assange's personal interests
Is that because Wilileaks used to be helping your political interests and now is hurting your political interests?
I had a lot more sympathy for Assange and Wikileaks before the recent releases that seem to have been timed to influence the US elections.
Also, why has it taken so long for him to agree to an interview on the rape allegations? Yes, it's possible, as Assange has asserted, that it is bogus, but there are also two victims who deserve some closure.
Well, so question (and this is an honest one): suppose Russia or China hacked into government facilities and then leaked information that influenced the election.
Do you see that as okay?
Next, suppose Russia or China supported an independent actor who did the same.
Is that okay?
Now, remember, these are foreign actors with their own agendas. They may have very good reason to, say, doctor the releases or groom them in a way that best serves their interests.
So, on the one hand, one could argue that information should be free, transparency is important, etc, etc. Ultimately, they're doing everyone a service.
On the other, there is a legitimate question about nations and foreign actors meddling in a sovereign state's electoral process, and the precedent that sets regarding international norms and established codes of conduct.
>On the other, there is a legitimate question about nations and foreign actors meddling in a sovereign state's electoral process, and the precedent that sets regarding international norms and established codes of conduct.
unless it happens to be of benefit of the candidate you support, of course. then it's all hunky-dory.
of course I'm just kidding. however, there are people that feel this way, and these folks definitely see the issue in black and white.
> Well, so question (and this is an honest one): suppose Russia or China hacked into government facilities and then leaked information that influenced the election.
> Do you see that as okay?
Yes.
> On the other, there is a legitimate question about nations and foreign actors meddling in a sovereign state's electoral process, and the precedent that sets regarding international norms and established codes of conduct.
I don't think there is. What if Russia or China or Germany issued a statement expressing their point of view that influenced the election.
Do you see that as okay?
Russia and China are under no obligation to keep the citizens of the US ignorant of things that candidates for the Presidency of the US would prefer them to be ignorant about. Also, the US has never shown any hesitation in leaking information, commenting on or directly funding candidates or movements that it preferred in either country.
I don't think there is. What if Russia or China or Germany issued a statement of their point of view that influenced the election.
Do you see that as okay?
I don't view it as equivalent.
It's kinda like the difference between marketing and corporate espionage.
On the one hand, we have a sovereign nation stating a position.
On the other, we have a (potentially hidden) sovereign nation exposing the communications of others.
The difference is in the (supposed) attribution of the communication. In the former case people will recognize it as naked politics and ignore it. In the latter, the level of trust in the information goes up since it's (supposedly) attributable to someone from the nation being manipulated, which to me is far more likely to sway people's opinions and effect the kind of manipulation being sought.
Anyway, we can clearly agree to disagree on this one, as fundamentally it's a matter of personal values. Speaking for myself, I would generally prefer that nation states leave domestic politics of other nations alone (and yes, that's a general statement that applies to every nation).
Which I suppose is pretty easy to say until there's a totalitarian regime committing genocide or something...
If you're saying that the problem is influencing someone else's election, then it is equivalent. If you're saying that the problem is hacks and leaks, I don't know how your problem with that isn't general, but only confined to foreign actors, and only now, with this election. Assange was always a foreign actor except when he was leaking about Australians.
And it still needs to be said, there's no proof that the Russian state is involved. This is a cynical deflection to keep us from talking about the content of the leaks; one that prefers to escalate tensions with a nuclear power to acknowledging the truth about what some people have said when they thought no one else would hear.
If the information is legit, then would you feel comfortable voting in anybody who can be that easily blackmailed or otherwise controlled? Better now than later...
I would only consider it meddling if they were doing something like rigging results or spreading false information. I don't see releasing what appear to be authentic emails any different than the recent Trump tape. As someone who is going to vote I would rather have more information and not less.
The question is then, who published the trump tape and why were they not the publisher for the DNC leak, and the opposit, why were WL not the publisher for the trump tape?
Was it the source choice, or the publishers choice? Both?
Why should I care? In a perfect world we would have some entity that works equally hard to vet and discredit both sides (it used to sort of be the press). We don't live in that world, so we have to deal with proponents of a side digging up and releasing what they find with their motivation to beat the other.
I would agree with your point if we had a single source of information or only information coming from one side. That is simply not the case though.
FWIW, attacking the source is what you do when the information itself is indefensible.
> there is a legitimate question about nations and foreign actors meddling in a sovereign state's electoral process
I agree that it's not black and white, but meddling in foreign elections goes back as long as it was an option. The US did so with great success in the Cold War.
Obviously? Do you think Thiel is spending his money after the election?
The wording seems designed to suggest something nefarious going on when at least with WikiLeaks you get original material instead of you know SuperPAC radio spots.
Thiel doesn't claim to be a nonpartisan advocate for privacy. Thiel's support for Trump is frankly baffling, and worth condemning. However, Assange spent years claiming to be on the side of transparency and being above politics. Then, he intentionally timed new releases to be most impactful in the elections, almost certainly at the direction of Russia. Regardless of who you are voting for, he's lost all credibility as a transparency advocate, and has been revealed to be a propagandist.
Where did this Russia angle even come from? This is hilarious. I feel like in a bad Cold War flick. Can you dig in your brain and find out where you have picked up that piece of information? Fascinating.
That aside, WikiLeaks timing releases is little more than the NYT picking between the story that goes to the front page with big picture and those on page 6. For that to be propaganda there needs to be some agenda other than "maximize attention" and I haven't seen that.
A U.S. official involved in the investigation said that the classified information collected on the hack so far "indicated beyond a reasonable doubt that it originated in Russia."
Indeed. If he were actually about transparency he'd have released all the info at once. For some reason he seems to have new releases ready right when Trump is taking a beating in the news.
I doubt he is actively trying to subvert the election, but whoever is feeding him the information seems to be trying.
"I had a lot more sympathy for Assange and Wikileaks before the recent releases that seem to have been timed to influence the US elections."
Since pretty much all of the mainstream media influences the US elections with their bias, I'm happy that there is an actual source of information that they can't ignore.
He actually had an interview earlier this week scheduled well in advance. It involved a prosecutor from the state which is hosting him and publicly objecting to the prosecution process asking him questions prepared in advance, with no prospect whatsoever of arrest at the end which was the whole purpose of Sweden wanting to question him.
He still pulled out. Apparently his legal team had something more important to be doing that day, or something, so we have to wait until next month. Again.
In the mean time, we're supposed to believe the Hillary Clinton campaign really, really wants you to pay more attention to Julian Assange and his website, and it's only mainstream media that lies to us.
Are we still trying to trumpet the claim that the entire allegation was part of the big set up to extradite Assange, or smear / assassinate his character?
Because if it was "he had somewhat consensual sleepy-sex" (no offense meant) "and now we want an STD test" is a pretty pathetic character attack for a state - I highly doubt that was the best they could muster.
I went to an event where Assange spoke, and I'm not sure if that's part of why I hold this opinion, but it's been pretty clear to me for many months that Assange is intentionally doing everything he can do keep Clinton out of office.
Is that wrong? Certainly the bias is there. But it seems to have reasonable weight behind it as well. I am too young to understand what Wikileaks used to stand for, but their activity today seems to be centered on keeping corruption out of America, and that seems noble enough to me. Maybe though it's a step down from what they used to be.
If he were an American citizen I'd be fine with what he's doing, but since he isn't I don't see why he should have any say in how we govern ourselves, even if we don't do it well. The fact is Clinton's opponent is far worse to American (and global) sensibilities than she is, so anything he's doing is just aiding the more destructive, tyrannical, morally bankrupt option. If he's trying to prevent corruption he is utterly failing. Our systems are far from optimal but they are in balance for the time being, and that gives us the opportunity to change things while minimizing chaos. Chaos would ruin us, and that's what Assange is trying to incite.
Yeah, she is transparently a boring establishment proxy, but so what? The US constitution is intended to preserve the establishments power, and you think its fine to celebrate that like a holy relic.
I don't get this overhyped aggression towards Hillary, her crime is basically to be a career politician. How can that be comparable to the idiot scumbag running for president?
Announced right when it's most effective in distracting from the really dubious pedo allegation against Assange - which itself happened right when he was unable to respond due to his internet connection being cut - imploding under the most basic journalistic investigation, and from the way it spread like wildfire amongst Clinton supporters despite absolutely reeking: https://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/the-bizarre-story-o...
I mean, I guess it's probably not all intentional, but the timing of events sure does hate the guy right now.
The Clinton campaign has been really effective with timing related to Assange events. The Trump sexual video was released immediately following a wiki leaks dump.
It's pretty clear that they are happy to play dirty, and have planned out moves like these.
Yeah, because creating new and more far-fetched allegations about a minor player like Assange's totally unblemished reputation and making the week's news cycle all about ClintonLeaks is obviously far more important to her Presidential campaign than using those techniques to undermine, say, the idea that Mike Pence might be a quite safe and steady running mate for Trump.
The DNC has hundreds of millions of dollars driving their campaign. There's no reason that they can't fight on all fronts at once.
The wikileaks vs. Trump leaks move has basically destroyed Trump's campaign. It was a fantastic move on their part, whatever calculus went in to their timing.
My point is they have no reason to want to waste their dollars getting Assange and ClintonLeaks more press at all, and if they're fighting that dirty, every reason to want Pence - who isn't the subject of any major allegations - to get some bad press. Or for the public to continue to lap up the latest Trump mishaps and not pay as much attention to the Podesta emails as Wikileaks would like.
But we're supposed to believe they have instead chosen to focus their efforts in keeping Assange in the press through the most obviously implausible setup possible, in a way which might cast doubt on two already very well-publicised and widely-believed allegations about Assange. And use their setup vehicle to issue press releases on the subject of obscure rulings by UN-affiliated bodies regarding Assange's detention and blog about "state-level interference", because obviously these are subjects that are the day-to-day obsession of Hillary Clinton, and not Assange and his supporters. Well, if Wikileaks says it was the Clinton campaign, it must be true.
If you'd just stopped at the question mark, you'd have a civil, if somewhat pithy comment that could potentially trigger some sort of conversation.
Instead you punctuate with foul language and insults, effectively nullifying your comment.
I know this stuff is polarizing and frustrating, particularly when you think there's bias or hypocrisy at work. But you can do better.
In this particular case, there's a very interesting potential debate that can be had about the ethics of leaks, the timing of leaks, the dangers posed by these types of leaks (e.g., actors with an agenda using "leaks" to release data that's biased or groomed to fit an agenda), the ethics of nation states supporting independent actors engaging in these types of activities...
Incidentally, to address your question, if it had been Trump... I'll admit it, it might bother me less. I wish I could say it wouldn't, because in reality, it'd be no different: an unaccountable, likely biased actor, who appears to be blatantly working to manipulate the election from the safety of a foreign embassy. Whether they're manipulating it to push the electorate toward Trump or Hillary doesn't make that any less questionable...
I just don't get why these people think that 'silencing' Assange would stop the leaks from happening, don't they (WL) have an algorithm running the dumps, and people ready to take the helm if he died?
It certainly doesn't change a thing and they are prepared and decentralized enough to avoid many attacks, but in general single persons can be very important to organizations and wikileaks is not that big.
Something that people aren't commenting much on but feels sort of significant to me is the way this information was released.
The initial tweet talked ambiguously about some "State Actor" cutting off internet. Although true, that seems designed to spark off an storm of conspiracy theories when the truth is quite banal.
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[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 233 ms ] threadI'm against censorship but he basically set himself up at the perpetual mercy of Ecuador. Their house, their rules.
Conversely in passive observation, wikileaks has had a pretty clear agenda in timing, materials and communications over the last few months.
WL has never explained why they didn't publish those emails, though they did blame the press for reporting what they called Hillary Clinton's "neo-McCarthyist conpiracy theories," which was ... somewhat nonresponsive to the allegation.
Google Translate:
"Ecuador granted political asylum to Julian Assange in 2012 on the basis of their legitimate fears of political persecution because of his journalistic activities as editor of WikiLeaks.
"In recent weeks, WikiLeaks has published a large number of documents which have an impact on the election campaign in the United States. The decision to make public such information is the sole responsibility of the Wikileaks organization.
"The Government of Ecuador respects the principle of non-intervention in the affairs of other countries, it does not interfere in electoral processes in progress or support a candidate in particular.
"In that sense, Ecuador, in exercise of its sovereign right, has temporarily restricted access to part of its communications system in its embassy in the UK.
"This temporary restriction does not prevent the WikiLeaks organization to carry out his journalistic activities.
"Ecuador, consistent with its tradition of defending human rights, especially with the victims of political persecution reaffirms granted asylum to Julian Assange and reiterates its intention to safeguard their lives and physical integrity until you can move to a safe place.
"Ecuador's foreign policy responds only to sovereign decisions and not yield to pressure from other states."
While in the past I viewed WL as a crucial part of openness and democracy, I'm very suspicious of their current sources, and their intentions. Not to mention Assange's personal interests (he expressed hatred towards Hillary - wonder what he thinks of Trump).
>"The Government of Ecuador respects the principle of non-intervention in the affairs of other countries".
A not so subtle hint to the fact that our country does not. For years we've meddled in the elections of countries around the world - directly and indirectly. We are still doing it in some parts, overtly supporting regimes that we like, and covertly derailing potential candidates who we assume will not play by our rules.
(Not that I'm a Trump supporter -- I just wonder if you can distinguish the above from your views on Wikileaks. I suspect you may just feel the way you do given your thoughts on Trump.)
I do not consider the US government a credible source in these matters. Especially since the pointing to Russia seemed more about distracting from the content of the documents WikiLeaks released.
Honestly, for or against Hillary or anyone else, I am happy that there is some amount of transparency going on and we are learning about it. We need more of this.
How can you say that with a straight face? Legal SuperPACs, campaign contributions, lobbying groups, the home of commercial 'PR' (propaganda) and the world's most highly litigious society. You guys are the least democratic of any self-titled democracy today. Wikileaks publishes information that enables people to make informed decisions. This is the original purpose of democracy. Chalk and cheese?
I also wonder also how you can say "Wikileaks is meddling in US political process" while admitting the US has made a global habit of meddling in others' affairs (including: direct political coup, arming rebel groups, placing puppets in power, supplying torture equipment and training, etc.). It makes no sense.
Unfortunately, on the other hand you want them to be 'neutral' and 'credible'.
I believe Wikileaks does a good job of maintaining the middle ground by providing both raw documents and context and analysis. Your suggestion that they are generating conspiracies does not stand up to analysis: by providing raw documents they do the opposite.
With regards to immediacy, Wikileaks has explained their processes in the past with regards to source validation. One of the most obvious attacks against the organization would be publishing false information through them to discredit them publicly. Therefore all information received must be carefully researched and validated, as well as anonymized, before publication.
Dumping all they had at once when they received it would at least appear to be less of an agenda. They aren't providing "raw" documents since they are doing it now drip by drip, again trying to rile up uninformed folks right before the election.
Personally, though, he lost credibility for me after how he ditched Domsheit-Burg talking like a crazed egomaniac after deceiving many into thinking he had more staff and protection for them than he really did. Now, he's an egomaniac and has a strong, political bias. Practically graduated to position of one of corporate media's talking heads. Edit to add: just with more muckracking!
I assume since many mainstream sources show a strong bias, they also lost credibility with you?
The difference is they're profit generating machines we all know is bullshit where Wikileaks claims to be an activist organization fighting to get the truth out to take down business and government corruption. Then gets really focused on one political party to benefit of another corrupt party. I definitely will call that out.
It's fine if they want to be just another biased, ego/profit-centric outlet. We'll just add them to list of sources, factor in bias, and try to determine truth. People will just have to stop treating it like it's trustworthy or an activist organization.
How does releasing information on one party and not the other invalidate their position as activists? No information on Republicans means WikiLeaks no longer cares about fighting corruption and increasing transparency? And that they're somehow profit driven because of that too?
Should they have looked for information on all of the detainees at guantanamo when they released the guantanamo files, just to avoid the possibility of perceived bias?
1. http://www.journalism.org/2016/07/07/pathways-to-news/
A consistent series of attacks focusing on the Left while the Right is doing lots of damage makes them activists against the Left specifically. Different than activists for civil rights or honest government/business.
" No information on Republicans means WikiLeaks no longer cares about fighting corruption and increasing transparency?"
It's odd that we see revelations and reports on both of them consistently from groups like The Guardian and The Intercept but not this activist.
"And that they're somehow profit driven because of that too?"
He was before that. Constantly fund-raising then charging people for little Assange parties. These days he seems to be driven by ego and/or hate of government. His leaks and reports in the old days were a mix of evil government and business.
"Should they have looked for information on all of the detainees at guantanamo when they released the guantanamo files"
Now you're just making stuff up. That's nothing like a supposedly neutral organization covering two, known-dirty candidates who are constantly pulling stunts.
If you perceive the Right or Left to be the greater threat given the information that you have, why do you have any obligation to report on them equally? IE how 75-100% of CNNs front page is anti-Trump stories on any given day.
> It's odd that we see revelations and reports on both of them consistently from groups like The Guardian and The Intercept but not this activist.
Why?
> Constantly fund-raising then charging people for little Assange parties.
Fundraising doesn't mean profit. 501c3s also fund raise. As I'm sure you and basically everyone else on this site is aware, running an org that's active in multiple countries over the course of a decade isn't free.
> His leaks and reports in the old days were a mix of evil government and business.
The current Podesta emails somehow aren't? Have you read them at all? For instance, the stories about Podesta's dealings in Russia [1].
This email [2] includes an attached legal bill regarding formation of Leonidio LLC. Is that not government and business corruption?
1. http://www.wnd.com/2016/10/how-hillarys-campaign-chief-hid-m... 2. https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/13946
How do you know? Maybe Trump has a modicum of security on whatever systems uses.
Yes, it's likely the Russians are feeding them their info. But so fucking what? Wikileaks is just doing their job, and they have no obligation to play nice to Clinton while she has run a regime that has systematically attacked and denied Assange's ability to get a fair go in America.
Do you make the same claim about the women who accused Donald Trump of sexual assault the same day that leak was released? Or the person who released the "Grab her in the pussy" audio at that time? For sure they are biased, but everything they seem to release turns out to be real.
But they don't, as Assange has admitted himself.
They publish data they deem worthy of publishing.
Oh really? Do you know the definition of a democracy? A democracy is simply a form of government that gives power to the people. It comes from Greek words "demos" meaning "the people" and "kratia" meaning power or authority. A democracy doesn't specify which people or even specifically what powers. It also doesn't say anything about about money or influence. Now is there too much money in US politics? Of course. Does extreme partisanship hinder progress? Absolutely. But none of these things mean that the US does not have a democracy. There might not always be a great choice of candidates but U.S citizens choose which least rotten of the bunch gets to represent them. No question about it. So yes that power is vested in the citizens. To state that the US is the least democratic of any democracy today is just absurd. So according to your statement the US lags behind Russia, Nigeria and Democratic Republic of Congo?
I think its odd that the OP simply saying he applauds the Ecuadorians efforts to distance themselves from Wikileaks elicited such a total condemnation from you.
Not in the US, this power is granted to the Electoral College.
> To state that the US is the least democratic of any democracy today is just absurd
Of course if you compare to extreme examples like Russia, Nigeria and the Democratic Republic of Congo, the US is a heaven of democracy. Compared to most western countries, it falls behind.
USA is living a lie that hurts almost all its citizens on a daily basis, and there is nothing the people can do. USA might be a democracy but there is no power in the hands of the people anymore. The choice of continuing this corrupt, broken institution is what Hillary represents. Massive change that might break all kinds of stuff world wide because of the crazy that he is, is what Trump represents. I don't think anybody but the people benefitting directly want those two as candidates, but there is nothing anybody can do about it. The people of USA just have to take it, all while being lied to by the very people that should be working for them but obviously aren't: the media and the government.
Yeah, worst democracy in the world is probably on point, in my opinion.
Question: How can we (I live in the US) still be a democracy if there is no power in the hands of the people?
I think either the US has slowly become an oligarchy[1], or it has always been an oligarchy that was merely good at pretending to be a democratic republic. I would vote if I thought it would have an effect, but sadly our voting process is inscrutable. I, like many others, pray for a revolution here soon.
1. Edit: just found out Jimmy Carter apparently agrees with this: https://theintercept.com/2015/07/30/jimmy-carter-u-s-oligarc...
Obviously, the plebeians felt otherwise and either started a revolt or simply refused to participate in their corrupted system, until reforms were made.
It's the same pattern repeating itself throughout history, when a seemingly benevolent system becomes corrupted by refusing to protect its most vulnerable populace and uphold its rule of law.
Don't eschew your civic duty, though. Even if you feel your vote "does not make a difference", you empower those who will one day remove that right from you. You're not using it anyway, right?
I want real power. My political views are not represented. No single candidate could ever represent me, because my opinions are minorities in many ways. The things I care about are not the issues that the media is pushing.
A government that cared about me would find some way for me to be represented. Perhaps a multiparty system like France. Perhaps the ability to directly vote on a small number of issues, instead of being forced into picking a candidate that supports 20% of my ideas over a candidate that supports 8% of them.
Or how about a media that'll at least acknowledge severe fraud allegations?: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hDc8PVCvfKs
Both Clinton and Trump were nominated as Presidential candidates by the voting public through a democratic process. Voters will choose among Trump, Clinton, Stein, Johnson, and other candidates in the Presidential election on November 8th. If voters don't want to elect Trump or Clinton, they have other candidates they can vote for. The reality is that most people want either Trump or Clinton as President.
Can you remind me how Prime Ministers are chosen in your country? What voters choose them to be PM? How important is your national government relative to the national government in the US, domestically speaking? Are state and provincial governments as powerful as they are in the US? Do you elect all your state and local offices, like we do in the US?
The US has many problems, but "insufficiently democratic" is not one of them.
Is that actually the reality? My impression is that most people do not want either Trump nor Clinton but they want one a lot less than the other so they'll vote against that candidate rather than voting for one.
Nobody is choosing either Trump or Clinton. They are voting for the alternative against either Trump or Clinton.
You are correct that USAs leaders have much more power than the leaders of my country. I will give you that. Your elected officials are probably better power people than mine, but I think that my elected officials are probably much better people than yours.
That is not a compliment in favor of your country. Quite the contrary.
Do "money" or "corporations" get votes? Or are people persuaded to vote in ways you don't like by people with money? There's a big difference.
> You are correct that USAs leaders have much more power than the leaders of my country.
That's not what I mean. In domestic terms, the Presidency is a very weak office. In many respects, the President is a figurehead that mostly matters for foreign policy purposes.
And again: who decided your PM would be PM? Voters? Or was it an internal decision made by a party without voter input? How can you claim that the US is less democratic than that?
It's not a perfect system, either, but the PM has to be among those elected to office - it's entirely possible (though rare) for a party to win the election, and their candidate for PM to lose their seat (and thus be ineligible).
It does also offer a semblance of "honesty" or vested interest. There's an accountability - if you as the PM are not capable of running a platform or country that makes other members of your party electable, they can and will remove you. So, at least in theory, there's a feeling of representative power. Most party-based removals from positions have come directly from the people, unhappy with performance, and then groups of politicians saying "Yeah, we're out of a job if we follow you/keep down this road".
It does also have Survivor-like elements, for better, and worse.
But the candidate for PM is known by the public, so in a sense it's de facto voted for.
Just like in the US, to rephrase your last: "Who decided your President would be President? Voters? Or was it an internal decision by an electoral college who in some cases is not obligated to respect the wishes of those they represent? How can you claim that to be democratic?"
As someone who has lived substantial periods in both Australia and the US, I have a decent perspective.
You've also not address my points about state and local politics in the US, and the limited power of the Presidency in general that make the position not that all important to the working of the government.
Of course it does -- the people. Demos, not anthropos.
> But none of these things mean that the US does not have a democracy.
And here too, the words "least democratic", rather than e.g. "not democratic at all, in any sense, ever", were likely chosen for a reason.
> I think its odd that the OP simply saying he applauds the Ecuadorians efforts to distance themselves from Wikileaks elicited such a total condemnation from you.
I consider it obedience signalling in the face of totalitarianism. I'm fine with "total condemnation" of that. I actually expect it from anyone I wouldn't pity and fight.
The candidates are self-selected based on how much money they have plus connection with corrupt parties who operate on bribes from corporations, special interest groups, and rich people. The people get information on these candidates from highly-biased media that lie about other candidates to drum up ratings for advertising revenue while also run by people in capitalist class. Territories, phrasing of questions on ballet, and voter rights are used to filter a chunk of votes that may threaten status quo. They votes are often entered into machines that are easy to hack with consistent refusal to eliminate that risk. These votes determine which "electors," not Presidents, are decided. These electoral candidates were already chosen by prior, political parties. Depending on state law, those electors will then vote for candidate people voted for or vote against people's choice.
This total process is what many Americans call an election system where the "people" decide who runs the country. They're participating in a mass delusion. It's clear that the people have limited participation in the above process. The final choice isn't made by the people at all. Some democracy...
https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/electoral-college/...
How is that a question? It's true. Of course he can say that. Wikileaks is meddling in the US electoral process. That the US also does it in no way changes that simple fact. The fact that the US does something bad does not mean that some other organization suddenly didn't do the thing it did. That's what makes no sense.
I don't mean to excuse any of the terrible things the US has done, I'm just pointing out basic reality here.
And I applaud Ecuador for taking the high ground here. I hope the US learns something from that.
Really... He expressed hatred for a US official who proposed murdering him? Shocking, shocking I say.
Edit: As far as I can tell it was an unsubstantiated rumor. I wouldn't be surprised if it was said but the best thing we have to go on is her body language in a video while questioned about it and I'm certainly not going to go through the trouble of compiling videos of her body language and attempting to correlate them with confirmed lies.
I can only conclude that you don't think Yemeni's, Libyans or Syrians are human.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was nothing more than a joke made in poor taste if it was ever even said at all. At this point I don't know why the government would even bother anyway. The cat is out of the bag and if they start killing people like Assange they're just going to assure the next group does it anonymously from the shadows.
It would be much simpler to do little things here and there to create unresolved questions about the integrity of Assange/Wikileaks and let half the country fight with the other half about that instead of the leaks. Honestly I'm not even sure why he even did it so openly in the first place. If a powerful nation is willing to spend money to engineer controversy you're screwed.
Telling the truth is now influencing the democratic process?
I sure hope so!!!
Telling only one side of the truth is a form of a lie.
If you are actively soliciting, and distributing dirt on only one of the parties involved in an election, though it may be the entire truth, you are not being HONEST.
Especially if the information you are releasing was providing to you by a malicious 3rd party State who/which is releasing it to you in the hopes of influencing the election so that a candidate preferable to that 3d state comes into power (Russia).
Real truth doesn't have sides.
If you have damaging data on two people who are enemies of each other, publishing dirt on one but not the other is helping the other person -- taking a side, IOW.
Do you have any reason to think that Wikileaks has the data on both sides, but only presents half?
You claimed "he had nothing on Trump". And the links clearly counter that.
That's my last reply to you. I don't like my discussion partners to sleazily try and retroactively change their claims to something nobody ever talked about when shown counter arguments. That's not an honest mistake, that's simply dishonest and a waste of time.
and "undermines the democratic process by using slush funds, illegal foreign donations and a slew of felonious crimes" is hardly a moral equivalent.
So I double down on my assertion: Wikileaks has nothing on Trump.
Shame! Shame! Shame!
Not really. The way I see it (and what I meant), is that although truthful facts can be presented in a way that favours one side, the presentation does not change the value of truth itself. Claiming that "truth has a side" is an attempt to disqualify information because you don't like it, and should not be accepted as valid reasoning by well-thinking people.
publishing dirt on one but not the other is helping the other person -- taking a side, IOW.
Then the publisher has a side, not the truth itself.
Didn't this already happen to Trump as well, and aren't we glad we know?
I doubt you will find much info on how Bernie was trying to keep Clinton out by illegal means.
And you're going to need better proof it was Russia than the words of the criminals thus exposed.
By this logic we could say Snowden was not being HONEST because he didn't dish us any dirt on the FBI, or Russia, or any of those other Organizations / countries that he simply doesn't have dirt on.
wikileaks has access to information and they are sharing it. That's important.
I still think he is a hero who should be pardoned and lauded, but...he's a deeply flawed one.
Evidence, please.
Lets be 'HONEST', your problem is that the leak looks bad for the candidate you like. Were you against the Trump video that came out or is that okay?
Funny how its OK until its all to close to a preferred interest is Clinton or the nebulous "us election process'
Perhaps if the us media did their jobs reporting on this stuff then there wouldn't be all this drama. Though if anyone has tried to influence election it is the "press" who likewise sit on stories - trump pussy tape, bush DUI as just two examples.
That same hypothetically unbiased press is quite good at playing team red or blue cheerleader directly or indirectly by access to like minded travelers. And let's not forget the bipolar ignore/bash any and all minor party candidates.
As to sourcing of material who cares? Its the facts revealed that matter. This is not some whispered in the ear dark of night off the record hit job.
Yeah the Guardian and New York Times really missed the boat not hacking John Podesta's email so we could learn how to make the perfect risotto. Or doxxing thousands of innocent Turkish citizens in a cache of "Government emails" that wasn't Government emails at all but hundreds of thousand of public forum posts, less than three hundred of which had government addresses. Transparency is important and good. Good, hard hitting journalism is more vital and necessary than ever. Julian Assange and Wikileaks are not journalists and not filling any civic void, just Assange's megalomaniacal need for attention as an information broker of other people's secrets.
https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/21978
“I signed a conflict of interest policy as a board member of cgi ... Oddly, wjc does not have to sign such a document even though he is personally paid by 3 cgi sponsors, gets many expensive gifts from them, some that are at home etc.”
Do you think conflicts of interest at the highest peaks of federal government are "benign" and "hardly criminal"? This is just one example of really shady stuff revealed in the leaks. IMO the Clinton Foundation sells political influence and that's illegal.
The revelations in the Podesta emails has been pretty lame. There's not a lot of surprises, but lots of chaff that will create some personally embarrassing moments for people.
I guess a simple google search was way too difficult ?
Oh, and media marching in lockstep singing praises of the dear leader HRC.
To be fair, the stated goal of WikiLeaks/Assange is to destroy the ability of governments to keep secrets by raising the cost of keeping secrets.
His original methods for accomplishing this goal was to enable leaks with the hope of creating an out of control spiral: disillusioned insider leaks -> government cracks down, spends more money, creates more onerous secrecy -> more insiders disillusioned, become leakers.
It kind of seems like this strategy failed -- there hasn't been a runaway spiral of leakers, and the ability of governments to keep secrets hasn't been eliminated.
Assuming the information Wikileaks is releasing is misinformation, whether or not Assange knows for sure, this isn't actually a bad strategy. Releasing plausible misinformation also raises the cost of keeping secrets. This attack only works because the internal communications are secret. If they were never secret, and anyone could peruse them, you couldn't release falsified versions. By keeping them secret, the organizations/governments have made themselves vulnerable to this attack, which raises the cost of keeping secrets.
It makes way more sense to think of WikiLeaks as Setec Astronomy, an anti-secrecy group, than a news organization seeking to inform the public.
The hypocrisy in these threads is unreal. Would you feel the same way if things were being released about Trump? You only care about openness and democracy as long as it supports your views.
"It's okay if I do it, but not if others do it to me."
"It's okay for me to ask brain teasers and textbook algorithms questions during an interview. But if I'm asked those questions, screw that company."
"I think we should have universal basic income for everyone. But I don't want to pay for it."
"It's okay to encourage whistleblowers, unless they are reporting on me. In that case, put them to jail and fine them please!"
The list goes on...
"It's ok to demand transparency from other organizations but my organization is going to be secretive."
"It's ok to release the contents of other peoples emails but I don't want people looking in my inbox."
"It's ok to demand accountability for other people's crimes but I'm going to live in an embassy for years to avoid my own trial."
I would. The election campaigns are manipulative enough as is. I don't want hackers in our election machines or running smear campaigns targeted on one candidate.
Those two things are not comparable. Hacking election machines to actually change the vote is not what is happening. People are finding information and releasing it. So in your view the Billy Bush tape should have been suppressed? Should all negative campaign ads be stopped? Should MSNBC and FOX news be taken off the air for a period before the election?
It's a slippery slope we head down when talking about not having information released.
That's they've both openly mocked and might fight many key freedoms I have from speech to search/seizure to due process means I'm certainly not putting either in control of FBI, DHS, IRS, DOD, etc. I'm voting for whoever is left on the ballot besides them in protest. I don't need to know anything more about them. I'm barely watching the election debates as they're just embarrassing.
Don't get me wrong, the high ground is endearing. Except it apparently took a call from John Kerry to do so.
Your example implies that the US was only in South America at the behest of the countries in question to do _their_ bidding, not the US's.
I thought my wording was strong enough, but yes absolutely what you said.
Is that because Wilileaks used to be helping your political interests and now is hurting your political interests?
Also, why has it taken so long for him to agree to an interview on the rape allegations? Yes, it's possible, as Assange has asserted, that it is bogus, but there are also two victims who deserve some closure.
Do you see that as okay?
Next, suppose Russia or China supported an independent actor who did the same.
Is that okay?
Now, remember, these are foreign actors with their own agendas. They may have very good reason to, say, doctor the releases or groom them in a way that best serves their interests.
So, on the one hand, one could argue that information should be free, transparency is important, etc, etc. Ultimately, they're doing everyone a service.
On the other, there is a legitimate question about nations and foreign actors meddling in a sovereign state's electoral process, and the precedent that sets regarding international norms and established codes of conduct.
It's not a black-and-white issue by any means.
unless it happens to be of benefit of the candidate you support, of course. then it's all hunky-dory.
of course I'm just kidding. however, there are people that feel this way, and these folks definitely see the issue in black and white.
> Do you see that as okay?
Yes.
> On the other, there is a legitimate question about nations and foreign actors meddling in a sovereign state's electoral process, and the precedent that sets regarding international norms and established codes of conduct.
I don't think there is. What if Russia or China or Germany issued a statement expressing their point of view that influenced the election.
Do you see that as okay?
Russia and China are under no obligation to keep the citizens of the US ignorant of things that candidates for the Presidency of the US would prefer them to be ignorant about. Also, the US has never shown any hesitation in leaking information, commenting on or directly funding candidates or movements that it preferred in either country.
Do you see that as okay?
I don't view it as equivalent.
It's kinda like the difference between marketing and corporate espionage.
On the one hand, we have a sovereign nation stating a position.
On the other, we have a (potentially hidden) sovereign nation exposing the communications of others.
The difference is in the (supposed) attribution of the communication. In the former case people will recognize it as naked politics and ignore it. In the latter, the level of trust in the information goes up since it's (supposedly) attributable to someone from the nation being manipulated, which to me is far more likely to sway people's opinions and effect the kind of manipulation being sought.
Anyway, we can clearly agree to disagree on this one, as fundamentally it's a matter of personal values. Speaking for myself, I would generally prefer that nation states leave domestic politics of other nations alone (and yes, that's a general statement that applies to every nation).
Which I suppose is pretty easy to say until there's a totalitarian regime committing genocide or something...
Like I say, not black and white. :)
And it still needs to be said, there's no proof that the Russian state is involved. This is a cynical deflection to keep us from talking about the content of the leaks; one that prefers to escalate tensions with a nuclear power to acknowledging the truth about what some people have said when they thought no one else would hear.
Maybe I should've picked Switzerland and Norway as my examples to avoid clouding the issue... ;)
Was it the source choice, or the publishers choice? Both?
I would agree with your point if we had a single source of information or only information coming from one side. That is simply not the case though.
FWIW, attacking the source is what you do when the information itself is indefensible.
I agree that it's not black and white, but meddling in foreign elections goes back as long as it was an option. The US did so with great success in the Cold War.
Obviously? Do you think Thiel is spending his money after the election?
The wording seems designed to suggest something nefarious going on when at least with WikiLeaks you get original material instead of you know SuperPAC radio spots.
That aside, WikiLeaks timing releases is little more than the NYT picking between the story that goes to the front page with big picture and those on page 6. For that to be propaganda there needs to be some agenda other than "maximize attention" and I haven't seen that.
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1051TD
Covered far and wide in almost every form of media.
You seem to be under the impression that the Cold War was fictional and not a conflict that lasted around 40 years...
I doubt he is actively trying to subvert the election, but whoever is feeding him the information seems to be trying.
Data is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom.
Dumping a lot of data at once is how you bury it, not bring it to light.
What you seem to be advocating for is that in order to release factual informaton it has to have an approved message associated with it first?
Data dumps are transparency. Now it is up for others to make that into knowledge.
Since pretty much all of the mainstream media influences the US elections with their bias, I'm happy that there is an actual source of information that they can't ignore.
It hasn't. The Swedish prosecutors have been the ones refusing to hold the interview, not Assange.
He still pulled out. Apparently his legal team had something more important to be doing that day, or something, so we have to wait until next month. Again.
In the mean time, we're supposed to believe the Hillary Clinton campaign really, really wants you to pay more attention to Julian Assange and his website, and it's only mainstream media that lies to us.
Worth noting that the two victims have also stated that the allegations are false.
And the statement doesn't make sense. Why do they deserve "closure" if it was possibly bogus?
Because if it was "he had somewhat consensual sleepy-sex" (no offense meant) "and now we want an STD test" is a pretty pathetic character attack for a state - I highly doubt that was the best they could muster.
And the statement doesn't make sense. Why do they deserve "closure" if it was bogus?
Is that wrong? Certainly the bias is there. But it seems to have reasonable weight behind it as well. I am too young to understand what Wikileaks used to stand for, but their activity today seems to be centered on keeping corruption out of America, and that seems noble enough to me. Maybe though it's a step down from what they used to be.
I´m glad they are revealing the hypocrites Hillary and the Democratic party.
We already know who Trump is. At least he is honest and is the same man behind the scene as at the spotlight.
Hillary is a habitual lier and hypocrite. Happy voting.
I don't get this overhyped aggression towards Hillary, her crime is basically to be a career politician. How can that be comparable to the idiot scumbag running for president?
Being a corrupt senior government official and selling US interests for money to foreign actors- is.
I mean, I guess it's probably not all intentional, but the timing of events sure does hate the guy right now.
It's pretty clear that they are happy to play dirty, and have planned out moves like these.
The wikileaks vs. Trump leaks move has basically destroyed Trump's campaign. It was a fantastic move on their part, whatever calculus went in to their timing.
But we're supposed to believe they have instead chosen to focus their efforts in keeping Assange in the press through the most obviously implausible setup possible, in a way which might cast doubt on two already very well-publicised and widely-believed allegations about Assange. And use their setup vehicle to issue press releases on the subject of obscure rulings by UN-affiliated bodies regarding Assange's detention and blog about "state-level interference", because obviously these are subjects that are the day-to-day obsession of Hillary Clinton, and not Assange and his supporters. Well, if Wikileaks says it was the Clinton campaign, it must be true.
What a curious double standard you have.
Come on man.
If you'd just stopped at the question mark, you'd have a civil, if somewhat pithy comment that could potentially trigger some sort of conversation.
Instead you punctuate with foul language and insults, effectively nullifying your comment.
I know this stuff is polarizing and frustrating, particularly when you think there's bias or hypocrisy at work. But you can do better.
In this particular case, there's a very interesting potential debate that can be had about the ethics of leaks, the timing of leaks, the dangers posed by these types of leaks (e.g., actors with an agenda using "leaks" to release data that's biased or groomed to fit an agenda), the ethics of nation states supporting independent actors engaging in these types of activities...
Incidentally, to address your question, if it had been Trump... I'll admit it, it might bother me less. I wish I could say it wouldn't, because in reality, it'd be no different: an unaccountable, likely biased actor, who appears to be blatantly working to manipulate the election from the safety of a foreign embassy. Whether they're manipulating it to push the electorate toward Trump or Hillary doesn't make that any less questionable...
The initial tweet talked ambiguously about some "State Actor" cutting off internet. Although true, that seems designed to spark off an storm of conspiracy theories when the truth is quite banal.
But yeah, just get that dude a mobile internet usb-stick. I would think twice before sharing my wifi with Assange, too.