I so much wish Apple would have integrated E-Ink in their keyboard keys. I was kinda hoping from the leaks it to be true but sad :( Instead of removing function bar and putting in a stupid LCD this would have made more sense. If they were dying to put in an Apple watch display in keyboard they could have done it on trackpad!
Disclaimer: Despite all this Macbook remains my fav laptop, no other laptop including surface compares to integrated experience.
There are better arguments for Apple's connectivity issues. I haven't had to directly attach my phone to my Mac in years. Sure, there are use-cases, but really, how many people plug their phones into their computers on a regular basis?
I do a lot more than you'd think, usually it's because I use the laptop as an extra battery to give my phone a quick boost while I'm traveling.
It also uses a lot of battery to use your phone as a wifi hotspot, using USB to share the internet connection is a lot more economical (you're actually charging the phone while it's happening.)
Are we pretending that Apple doesn't sell USB-C to Lightning cables?
For a special bonus you no longer have to carry two AC adapters, your USB-C to Lightning cable goes into the same AC adapter as your laptop if you wish.
now if you refuse to give apple all your email, wifi passwords, pictures, etc, you will not have any integration.
Mostly like google stuff. If i do not give google my wifi passwords then i can't get my android watch to use wifi at all! Apple is just catching up on the game they invented.
First step in playing a PC game is to go into options and try to memorize the controls. This could be useful for gaming or specialized applications like CAD.
The first step is to rebind the controls because they're all wrong. Even so, I do occassionally forget what went where. So a thing like this could be useful. Of course it would never be supported unless it were common, and I don't see it becoming common.
Nah. Displaying keyboard shortcut hints on screen next to the button at mouseover, which many applications have done for at least a decade, is much more efficient. Constantly looking down, looking up again, looking down etc. is terribly inefficient.
Even with cad you tend to memorize, that and it doesn't (my exp is limited to autocad) use off hand chording too often. mostly its keying in short commands, such as 'li' or 'c', followed by an 'enter' action key (often space bar)
Perhaps it could be more useful for apps without a cli, like a DAW software package?
if you allow enough alternative keyboard layouts for exotic unicode characters then you probably won't have muscle memory for it. So cycling through blocks with hunt and peck might be useful for rarely used characters.
Or as accelerator key hints for application-specific keyboard shortcuts for applications that you don't use on a daily basis. Instead of having to dig through 3 levels of modal dialogs or menus you could just look at your keyboard to find the right shortcut.
The keyboard is still one of (the?) most efficient mechanisms for interacting with a computer. Many applications that aren't text-entry centric can increase user productivity by using keyboard shortcuts for functionality (think of a video editing application: fast-forward, back up 2 sec, mark a segment, etc...). However these function suffer greatly from discoverability issues. If you could put the functions directly on the keyboard, you'd be able to find these shortcuts much faster, and be able to be more productive. Once you've learned the shortcuts, the e-ink becomes less useful, but during that initial discovery (and memorization) phase, it would be extremely helpful.
You can buy directly from E Ink holdings or PDI without the 50% profit margin from retailers. They come with dev kits too so you can make it into a monitor.
Our software guys would like to work on a E Ink dev screen for software developers who stare at a screen for most of the day.
Almost looks like they went for one big e-ink screen underneath and moved the mechanics out of the way between the keys. The "blueprint" also shows such a rectangle that could be one big screen just behind the changing keys.
I wouldn't order it before not reading a review about how the feel of the probably new mechanics is.
How black is black on backlit e-ink? I'm thinking of an inverted theme, because I don't want a keyboard glowing white all over at night.
It's almost certainly a single display. Mini-caps would be expensive and very difficult to build reliably.
The e-ink displays I've seen aren't brilliant at black. It's usually somewhere between 50% to 75% gray. That may well be enough, but I think a lot of people are going to want to see a production sample before buying.
The contrast on the new displays are much better, the spec for E readers (encarta) displays are more forgiving given the application.
Mini caps would be expensive and also not a good look as each display has an IC driver bonded to the glass substrate so you would have this large border for each key.
I totally would want to get my hands / of fingers on one before selling too.
The keys are made of a specific materail so it acts as a transmissive medium, which is like poor mans fibre optic. The earlier prototypes were CNC'd keys, with injection molding the current design doesn't have the refraction issue you're referring to.
I'm an mech engineer working at Sonder, we have an optics eng who worked on this side.
Not exactly a novel idea, the optimus maximus keyboard has been a concept design in 2005 and saw a limited production run in 2007. And it supported colors to boot.
I think its main problem was that it was too expensive.
They did both (the small one being called "mini three" or something like that), but the full keyboard came later and of course was freakishly expensive.
Increased DPI, colour, refresh rates and partial updating, front lighting solutions, cost(!), mass production optimisation, decreased power consumption. Just a few.
You missed the biggest improvement: Increased contrast.
The 1st gen Kindle's display was a light grey resembling cheap newspaper stock. Definitely readable in decent lighting, and you could increase the font size to improve legibility if it was an issue, but not what I would call "pretty". Kind of dingy, really, and illustrations & photos all looked blah.
Current eInk Kindles' displays are much brighter looking in ambient light. Not yet as bright as the paper in a hardcover book, but about as good as a several-year-old paperback. And it is definitely bright enough to make looking at illustrations & photos worthwhile.
On top of that, the front-lighting on a very low or lowest setting will increase the contrast just enough to create the illusion of whiter paper (and if that isn't enough for you, by all means crank it up).
Great point, we work a lot with E Ink Holdings and they have a ton of IP being developed (like 350 patents) and some exciting product updates which from an engineering perspective are impressive. Their principals scientists are incredibly talented guys, pleasure to work with.
Just compare the very first Kindle to the current generation of ebook readers. They have been improved a lot, and the mass production capabilities exist now.
Perhaps, but as you said it costs 10x more. To design the concept so it a consumer who wants a dynamic keyboard to cost less than his terminal; actually takes a lot of novel engineering on a hardware, firmware and software side. The challenge is, to make it look not novel, to make it look obvious, simple even.
P.S
I work with the CTO on the project; they read HN also.
An interesting idea, but I just don't look at my keyboards. Even so, I can't help feeling this is a much better approach than replacing F-keys with the Mac Touchbar. The touchbar could have been a great idea if above the pre-existing keys.
However, if it was a Model M chassis, sculpted full travel loud mechanical keys, E-Ink, and a modern selection of media keys and volume I'd probably buy one. Regardless of how silly the cost.
Then I'd still not look at it until doing something in Photoshop or some other program I use only rarely!
Edit: It also strikes me as odd not to E-Ink the Command and Option keys so you can use it on Windows too.
I think it'd be cool for programming, I have RSI and find using the shift key + another key painful. I also rarely use the number keys above the letters (I used num pad) so changing all those keys to the shit_key equivalent would be neat.
And rearranging some of other keys would be great.
And don't get me started on games, oooooh, how often to I buy a new game and forget what 'm' does? Knife? Grenade? Pickaxe?
You might consider either Autohotkey for Windows, or Keyboard Maestro for Macs (or something similar for Linux, I'm sure). You can rebind keys, including shift and control/command, to whatever or wherever you want.
I did it to get control on the caps-lock key, but never conditioned myself to use it.
Firstly: RSI is no joke - if you're experiencing pain, there's a non-zero chance it'll develop into a serious medical condition. (At MIT's Media Lab, someone's RSI got so bad he couldn't type at all and had to invent an interface using vocal phonemes to encode common OS actions/lexical keywords to control his OS (OS X) / editor (emacs) / language of choice (python)).
If you feel even the slightest bit of pain, that's your body signalling to you 'hey buddy, don't do this'. I was suffering from emacs pinky to the point where my hands were aching hours after leaving my desk. On weekends, my tennis racket grip was significantly weaker and form poorer. Mapping Ctrl to caps, right shift to Esc, and buying a $30 MS Ergonomic keyboard solved my issues. My friends who have had worse issues spent the $300 on a Kinesis (which I had up until then considered to be snake oil) but it seems to have solved their issues entirely (and for $300 it's definitely a cheap investment compared to the opportunity cost of the time invested in physical therapy).
If you're on Linux, you can at the os-level make modal changes. I made the right-alt key move into a different mode, so I effectively get an entirely separate key-mapping when that key is depressed. (E.g., hjkl for me is OS-wide, and sdfg lets me move the cursor. nb. Were I to make this decision again, I'd use Caps as my primary modifier, [ as my secondary, effectively giving me four full keyboard maps. Probably overkill but if I were using something like SolidWorks or Illustrator where having both keyboard and mouse access available often, I'd be experimenting with a setup like that -- keeping my right hand always on the mouse, and left for keyboard shortcuts -- biasing all of the shortcut keys to the left-hand region of the keyboard.)
ErgoDox implements a similar system but on the micro-controller level so you don't even have to putz with modifiers and it's cross OS. I don't have one but I would have bought one if I used a desktop more often, simply due to the trackball-feature (effectively letting one use a mouse without leaving the home-row -- a 'must-have' for me).
Great post and an important disclaimer... take RSI seriously. I went the Kinesis route and switched to Dvorak (after taking a week off from typing) and I've never had a problem since (I ditched the Kinesis after a couple months and went back to my laptops keyboard).
Echoing the parent, take it very seriously. One thing that helped me was an verticle mouse (Evoluent C in my case). There's on one thing that will solve you're problems, just bit a pieces that will contribute to long term management.
One other thing is WorkRave which reminds me to take breaks. This is helpful for my hands, but has been frustrating for getting into the groove of programming.
The vertical mouse thing being "ergonomic" is nonsense. There are studies that have shown this. From memory it was generally worse for you to use a vertical mouse in terms of productivity and comfort.
The only thing vertical mice reduce is wrist movement.
Perhaps you might appreciate a different perspective. Broadly speaking, ergonomic devices are meant to combat repetitive strain injuries. I think of ergo devices as useful if they give you more variation. They might not be better positions in themselves, but switching between palms down and palms sideways when moving from the keyboard to mouse gives you variation that helps to combat RSI. At the very least, I couldn't put my palm down without pain for a while, so a sideways mouse is better at least from that vantage point.
RSI made Richard Stallman stop coding. It just got too painful for him and he eventually refocused his efforts on outreach. The Internet would not be what it is today without RSI.
Having recently noticed a little carpal tunnel (though in truth I don't know how to distinguish the two) and got rather sensitive to where my wrists rest on a laptop I can sympathise! I switched to a vertical mouse earlier in the year which has helped massively. My right wrist was always the most affected, and it turns out it was mostly down to mousing.
Very true on games. I'd use for this too, and learning. Like someone else mentions a reactive keyboard would have been great when I was learning vi!
> Having recently noticed a little carpal tunnel (though in truth I don't know how to distinguish the two)
Carpal tunnel syndrome is a specific condition where your carpal tunnel constricts around a nerve. RSI is the umbrella term for these types of injuries.
May I recommend switching to vertical keyboard and mouse? Here https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79810.0 you can see my solution made from tripod parts and the Matias Ergo Pro which is a) mechanical b) split c) uses tripod screws. For vertical mice, the Evoluent VerticalMouse is fantastic and you can get previous generation (which are just as fine) used on eBay for $25-30.
they got a interesting full sized keyboard (that has dying appeal) and added the most obnoxious software 'features' they could think of. Everything from Das is really dysfunctional and sad. And i really wanted to like them.
>>Everything from Das is really dysfunctional and sad.
I don't think that's fair. I've had a Das for a couple years now (Model S Pro, IIRC) and it's a solid, well designed keyboard. No obnoxious software AFAICT.
The whole "cloud keyboard" thing does sound gimmicky, I just don't think it's reasonable to paint their entire product line that way.
- because the density of information on the screen is higher and the screen is much larger.
- Because staring at your keyboard isn't great for your neck.
- Because when I'm typing I'm outputting my brain into the computer, I'm not trying to take in input.
- BECAUSE YOUR HANDS BLOCK THE KEYBOARD.
The mouse is more of a follow and enter type of interface, as is touch. Keyboards are a high ply (eg 102 keys + shifts) with chords and chains, in that a you generally hit a series of keys to do something (typing) and not a single button. So massively more options than the 12 they can get up there on the top row. So memorization wins out in my mind here.
Where I think this would help is when you're learning new things and have to move your hand to figure it out. Like say a new character in dota... but again the monitor is better.
This keyboard looks cool tho. Tho wish they'd put some non-mac pics up.
It's a small thing but a lot of editors who travel from studio to studio will have their own work process, it's very specific to power users; which this product is designed for. If the feature is a gimmick to you, it's fine; but others really appreciate it and in testing with video editors etc it's something we get a ton of feedback for including.
Haha, of course, we have an API on the client which comms with the on board flash; the cloud is just a back up of a user profile so if an editor is at a new studio they can dl their profile quickly. It's an option that creative design demographic constantly ask for.
If I'm familiar with an application, I don't look at the keyboard. If I'm VERY familiar with an application, I don't even recall commands through their mnemonic, but through muscle memory.
For example, I've just switched to spacemacs from vim, and one of the first commands to learn is Ctrl+G, which is to exit from any menu. "Escape from menu" is not mapped into my brain as C-g, but as "pinky here and left index finger here." In contrast, when I want to change to next buffer, I think <SPC> b n, and not "thumb, right index finger on this button, then right index finger on this button" (although I'm sure that it will become muscle memory before long.)
HOWEVER, the nice thing about spacemacs is that you can press space and you see all possible commands pop up in the command buffer. This is a highly effective method for learning commands, and it is similar to how the "ribbon design" functioned in Microsoft Office 2007. This is where I think the E-ink keyboard could be most useful: in teaching keystrokes. It's essentially the same thing as looking down at the spacemacs command buffer, but you get to see the command pop up on your keyboard.
That being said, there are a lot of downsides to the whole idea. You're stuck with a very limited set of switch-and-layout combinations if you want an e-ink keyboard. Secondly, keyboards take a lot of abuse, and I don't know how much a replacement e-ink keycap costs, or where I'm going to get one (maybe this won't be such an issue, though). Finally, the glyph can only be represented as a glyph, and not as a detailed command like it can in a spacemacs buffer.
Cool product though; I'd get one if I had money to burn!
To clarify, I was disliking the DAS keyboard he linked having config that's crowd sourced and appears to be permanently connected.
For your keyboard I would highlight how the config only optionally uses cloud and that your settings are quite happy offline. I see cloud and keyboard or mouse and think "avoid". A couple of gaming devices and their awful connected software has caused that reaction. I'd expect some others to make similar association! :)
i will pass on this one because they keys are probably garbage, but I change my layout between several languages and i actually have some of the layouts printed out because i am still not very familiar with them.
Not my use case either, but visit any audio or video editing room. I will bet you money that every workstation will have colorful stickers on top of all the keyboards to remind the operators which keys do what on their audio/video editing software.
Oh I see that. Even then I see cases I'd find it useful - software I don't use daily, learning something like vi, games etc. Enough that I'd buy a mechanical if they ever made one.
I see it as a vastly better add for a Macbook Pro than the touch sensitive bar.
Given some of the comments in another recent thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12828398) your coworkers just might kill you for using a loud keyboard (but given the construction of an IBM Model M, you will probably be able to defend yourself with it).
Agree. Model M / Cherry blues are too loud for any shared space. Even Topre switches are probably kind of annoying, but it's a lower-pitched sound so not as noticeable.
Because it's a prototype, we went for existing displays and a 60% was the closest. Besides, you for your a 104 key keyboard and the price just doubled.
Hi, appreciate the feedback; I'm one of the engineers working on the project at Sonder. Our CEO actually has a Model M and an Apple Extended Keyboard II as reference designs in the office; they're probably the pinnacle of good keyboard design and construction however the product you're asking for (a mech switch display keyboard) already exists and it costs $1500. The reality is, that approach is not optimised for mass production and we would price out most of our market (like Apple is doing now).
Once we ship the product for laptop integration, we will push out more premium designs for those used to mechs and / or gamers.
P.S
The perphial keys which were static in the old design was because we had to use an existing display. Making a custom E Ink display needs to be in at least 300k minimum order quantity so we had to wait until we had a mass production order; the current design has a new display which means all the keys are remappable.
Please consider split keyboards with raisers for future advanced models, I have a Kinesis Freestyle 2 with VIP3 kit, and this is the best keyboard I've ever used as far as ergonomics -- and it doesn't have to have such a large footprint or long travel keys to be ergonomic, though the riser and the wrist rests are almost indispensable.
The Goldtouch Go!2 tried to go in the direction of an ergonomic mobile keyboard, but the layout is crap and the separation of the two pieces and wrist rests make the Freestyle 2 vastly more ergonomic. You could also make 2 pieces that are separated completely wirelessly.
I used to have a model M-type keyboard, and I would disagree that these are the pinnacle of good keyboard design. Typing on a flat keyboard is not natural/good for your hands as you are almost constantly near the limit flexibility of your wrists and arms.
I agree with your points on ergo design, we did a survey with the thousands on community members and only like 4% would buy an ergo design which was lower than expected. It's important for us to address from a design perspective but we want to do incremental keyboard revision, otherwise consumers won't be able to adapt to the massive transition in a dynamic and ergo design.
The Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 might make a good reference design. With all those programmers, they've got a pretty good dog fooding process for keyboard ergonomics. And the 4000's are very modestly priced...another good reason to have one as reference.
Yes, I think it makes 100% sense that you guys focus on a mobile keyboard for the step 1. And I think you guys made a very good start at it by using Apple design as a reference, using a reversible connection, and adding backlighting. From an ergonomics standpoint, Apple's keyboard is actually fairly good for a straight keyboard.
When you do get to step 2 tough, I think that 4% will prove to be underrated, because (a) RSI cases will only grow as the generations who grew up typing on computer keyboards gradually become a larger share, and (2) those making a living typing on a computer keyboard, insurance companies and employers who want to reduce costs are likely ready to spend hundreds for a healthy keyboard (I know I am).
Neither the Model M nor the AEK II is a “pinnacle” of anything. The best keyboards were made earlier, in the 1970s. By the mid-1980s when the Model M debuted, or the early–mid 1990s of the AEK II, keyboards were already started along their downward cost-and-quality-cutting slide, albeit not yet to the final rubber dome ditch of the late 1990s through 2000s.
If you can, try to find an Apple Standard Keyboard (M0116) or Apple Extended Keyboard (M0115), with orange-slider Alps switches. Try to find one in as close to unused condition as you can (ideally you want something which was stored inside a box for 25 years), as getting dust inside the mechanism affects the typing feel of Alps switches dramatically. If you can, also try to find some blue-slider (clicky) Alps switches from the same time period (late 80s through about 1990).
Most keyboard “enthusiasts” agree that these are nicer keyswitches than the AEK II’s cream-slider Alps switches. The later switches were after some cost cutting design changes at Alps (and maybe production expansions to new factories?). And also have their feel somewhat compromised by the inclusion of rubber dampers in the switch which were added to cut some of the sound.
Also, instead of a Model M, see if you can find a Model F. They’re in my opinion much more satisfying to type on, albeit a bit louder.
Other clicky switches you might try are blue SMK switches, black NMB–Hi Tek switches, and IBM beam spring switches.
Thanks for the comment, you're very right; but these two were mass production units that still preserved much of what the earlier units great. We have a few earlier Apple alps kbs you mentioned, but I'll shoot the Model F to our slack channel.
Thanks for the comment, you're very right; but these two were mass production units that still preserved much of what the earlier units great. We have a few earlier Apple alps kbs you mentioned, but I'll shoot the Model F to our slack channel.
When I say I'd pay a silly price, I wasn't thinking quite Art Lebedev silly! They discontinued the nicer one (Maximus).
Didn't realise the display was a single piece. Must make the switching and springing challenging to say the least. In fact I struggle to work out how you do it reliably with the tiny space between keys.
One to watch I hope. I look forward to interesting new products! Perhaps not a million miles from a modernised M with media and so forth. Or ergonomic.
ps, licence your keyboard to Apple in preference to getting bought by them, the Linux and PC worlds might like them too. ;)
We basically redesigned the mechanism from the ground up; I can't comment on it specifically since it's all IP sensitive but a different approach whilst preserving the same tactile feel.
I've been wanting a keyboard like this for years, well done I hope you make a success of it.
I use a steelseries keyboard because it has lots of macro keys and great macro software.
It's amazing how benficial macro keys are, even for simple macros, like copy paste or paste values, relieves strain of always using ctrl key combinations.
I often forget which macros I have assigned especially on programs less frequently used so e-ink for macro keys would be a huge benfit for me.
Once we ship the first laptop module and standalone, it's the planned next product (maybe with colour E Ink if E Ink Holdings has a time line for release).
I learned to type on a Model M keyboard. But are they actually better? Or is it all psycho-somatic? I don't think I type any slower on a modern scissor-switch keyboard. And frankly it's a lot less physical exertion and not to mention quieter.
I've had a lot of keyboards over my 35 years of computing. I stuck with Thinkpads for years because they had scissor keys that compared with a desktop, had decent travel and a distinct click. Desktop's included Microsoft Natural, standard OEM, through midrange to Roccat with cherry browns, and a Razer with blues.
None of them have lasted, or had the build quality, or felt as nice. More than a few have been actively irritating. The silly price Roccat was the least reliable of the lot.
I keep coming back to my M. If it's placebo it's a convincing one.
I think I get less fatigue. For example on my laptop, I feel like I keep hitting my fingers on hard surface and it gets tiring and they hurt a lot sooner than when I type on my Model M.
On laptops, Thinkpads have the best so far I've seen (tried Acer, HP, Macbook Pro).
With physical excretion, it is an interesting point. I just bolt modded my Model M (that means replacing some of the aging plastic rivets inside with metal bolts, which requires a complete disassembly and drilling holes and so on). And so for a while was using a generic keyboard with Cherry MX blue switches. Also clicky but a lot less resistance.
When I switched back to my fixed up Model M I noticed my fingers were weaker and it was hard to type. After a bit of time on it was back on track. I think fingers get stronger or get used to it perhaps.
But I totally don't discount this being a placebo effect. I know I am irrational about being attached to this keyboard. I just spent a large number of hours fiddling with it, ordering custom parts, and so on. If you ask me I'll probably tell you my program compile faster too when I type them on it ;-)
There is a satisfying sound to punching out code or emails on a mech switch. You stop noticing the sound but that said some colleagues who love mechs hate working with others who have them.
I've always thought that adaptive key display keyboards were a really strange market. You need the intersection of (enthusiasts who will pay ~$300+ for a keyboard) with (users who don't touch type).
It's a fun novelty for sure, but I feel like the above target market is so tiny that the majority of purchases will be impulse buys because it seems cool, rather than because it's actually useful.
The point of shortcuts are to learn them.. buying a $200 keyboard just to look less at the keyboard is pointless.
If I were a buyer I'd wish it wasn't bluetooth only, though.
Unfortunately software can not remedy an essentially hardware issue no matter the laws and tax/vat requirements for purchase.
> In this case technology makes law pointless
Spanish keyboards usually have 1 extra key so they are typically 105 keys; in Japan they are 109 keys. From my experiences in Spain, if you are buying as a company (even if you purchase it at Carrefour or El Corte Inglais) you will pay a small premium for those non-local keyboards.
Can't help but feel like people are only thinking about programming with this. For someone who speaks multiple languages, being able to switch between configurations as easily as you can on a phone seems like it would be super useful.
I speak (and type in) two languages that have different layouts. While I touch-type most of the time, I still need to look for some things occasionally. Eventually I simply got custom printed keycaps from WASD where one language has symbols in upper right, the other in upper left.
Languages, app hot keys, emoji, game controls, custom performance options for laptop DJs, musicians, VJs, etc...
Many applications.
This looks really interesting. Yes/no depends on key feel.
I wasn't convinced by the Apple chiclet keyboard when I saw it, but I've lived with one for a year and a half now, and I'm completely comfortable with it.
If this has a similar feel I'll be seriously tempted.
The user experience in both the hardware and software is critical, we've put a ton of work in refining the experience. The laptop module is designed to the same standard as an existing laptop keyboard (65g, 1.2mm travel and similar force profile).
P.s
I hate this comment on reddit but I couldn't help myself. The mech is also manufactured to the spec for a standard laptop spec, it should feel pretty familiar.
That would be amazing for teaching vim! I've been using vim for a decade and I'm always learning new things about it. A modal keyboard would be incredibly instructive.
It's worth it. Once you grok it, you'll be composing new movements + actions and before long you will be 'thinking in vim'. You also need a very small subset of stuff to begin being useful (actions, moments, modes). After that learn about macros/registers, buffers and windows and you're pretty much good to go.
The video displayed previously had an older timing controller. Here's a video demo of the current TCM on a different display. It's 10Hz, so it will respond to modifier keys and partially update.
They have a terrible reputation for worker safety and mental health.
As a startup, our strategic partners are incredibly important, we did a study into our supply chain to ensure it's ethical and responsible. Despite the tragedies in the past; Foxconn is the safest, they offer counseling for mental health. , They have a worker population of over a million, statistically the tragic incidents are actually a few times less common than the rest of the Chinese population and around 7 times less than the states.
I lived on their campus for around 5 months, Foxconn takes this very seriously and is doing it's best. From the little things like on average a 15% wage increase year on year for the last few years (seriously), to programs where workers can learn English and other skills.
It's frustrating they have bad PR, one thing living on campus you see is in Chinese work culture, you will nap at your desk at lunch for about an hour or so; when reports emerged they used footage and said works were worked into exhaustion.
This is the sort of thing that I'd prefer for a second generation so I could get one with all the kinks ironed out.
Also for all those folks saying they don't look at their keyboards while typing: I don't either, except for when I have a particular key stroke committed to muscle memory, which is to say for all new applications that I would like to begin using.
Having something like this would substantially lower the barrier to entry for all keyboard centric apps. So to me it's worth it, even if I know going in that I wouldn't always look at the changing keycaps when I used them.
All that said, I gotta admit that now that I know Apple's Touch Bar is a thing, I would very, very much like to see it, or something like it, stuck on this keyboard.
Hmm. The keys with the transparent cap actually don't look great to me. Also, why do we keep losing the number pad? I use it quite a bit, and it's one of the main reasons to use a dedicated keyboard rather than the built-in one.
Also, I really want to like Bluetooth. Built-in generic connectivity! Yet, at least once a day I have to reset a connection between my MacBook and a peripheral, or my phone and a peripheral. Touchpad batteries died and need to be replaced? Yeah, that's a reboot. Headphones won't connect? Re-pair. I hate that my Logitech keyboard comes with a dongle, but it works and I get why they included it.
Too bad it seems to be aimed mostly for mac computers. I suppose it can work on both, but the position of fn/ctrl keys will make it hard to use for people used to the "PC way".
It looks great otherwise, even though I'll be curious to test the feedback of the keys as the mechanics seem to be on the sides of each, and not under as usual.
This seems like a good direction for our keyboards, but I don't understand why they don't let all keys be changed. Specifically, caps lock. Caps lock functionality is completely useless to me, and I suspect most people.
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[ 4.8 ms ] story [ 306 ms ] threadDisclaimer: Despite all this Macbook remains my fav laptop, no other laptop including surface compares to integrated experience.
It also uses a lot of battery to use your phone as a wifi hotspot, using USB to share the internet connection is a lot more economical (you're actually charging the phone while it's happening.)
http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0X2AM/A/usb-c-to-lightni...
For a special bonus you no longer have to carry two AC adapters, your USB-C to Lightning cable goes into the same AC adapter as your laptop if you wish.
now if you refuse to give apple all your email, wifi passwords, pictures, etc, you will not have any integration.
Mostly like google stuff. If i do not give google my wifi passwords then i can't get my android watch to use wifi at all! Apple is just catching up on the game they invented.
Its actually OLED.
And wondering what an E-Ink Keyboard is good for in the real world (this is a genuine question).
Perhaps it could be more useful for apps without a cli, like a DAW software package?
Or as accelerator key hints for application-specific keyboard shortcuts for applications that you don't use on a daily basis. Instead of having to dig through 3 levels of modal dialogs or menus you could just look at your keyboard to find the right shortcut.
Multilingual people who want to type in different languages easily?
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/paperlike-world-s-first-e...
I have one. They work fine as a second monitor (no Linux support yet though, Windows and Mac only).
Our software guys would like to work on a E Ink dev screen for software developers who stare at a screen for most of the day.
I wouldn't order it before not reading a review about how the feel of the probably new mechanics is.
How black is black on backlit e-ink? I'm thinking of an inverted theme, because I don't want a keyboard glowing white all over at night.
The e-ink displays I've seen aren't brilliant at black. It's usually somewhere between 50% to 75% gray. That may well be enough, but I think a lot of people are going to want to see a production sample before buying.
Mini caps would be expensive and also not a good look as each display has an IC driver bonded to the glass substrate so you would have this large border for each key.
I totally would want to get my hands / of fingers on one before selling too.
I'm an mech engineer working at Sonder, we have an optics eng who worked on this side.
I think its main problem was that it was too expensive.
I wonder whether this one will go the same way, after years of waiting for these glossy CGI renderings to become reality.
The 1st gen Kindle's display was a light grey resembling cheap newspaper stock. Definitely readable in decent lighting, and you could increase the font size to improve legibility if it was an issue, but not what I would call "pretty". Kind of dingy, really, and illustrations & photos all looked blah.
Current eInk Kindles' displays are much brighter looking in ambient light. Not yet as bright as the paper in a hardcover book, but about as good as a several-year-old paperback. And it is definitely bright enough to make looking at illustrations & photos worthwhile.
On top of that, the front-lighting on a very low or lowest setting will increase the contrast just enough to create the illusion of whiter paper (and if that isn't enough for you, by all means crank it up).
P.S I work with the CTO on the project; they read HN also.
However, if it was a Model M chassis, sculpted full travel loud mechanical keys, E-Ink, and a modern selection of media keys and volume I'd probably buy one. Regardless of how silly the cost.
Then I'd still not look at it until doing something in Photoshop or some other program I use only rarely!
Edit: It also strikes me as odd not to E-Ink the Command and Option keys so you can use it on Windows too.
And rearranging some of other keys would be great.
And don't get me started on games, oooooh, how often to I buy a new game and forget what 'm' does? Knife? Grenade? Pickaxe?
(Or if you’re stuck on a standard keyboard, I recommend you try to use the opposite-hand shift key.)
I did it to get control on the caps-lock key, but never conditioned myself to use it.
If you feel even the slightest bit of pain, that's your body signalling to you 'hey buddy, don't do this'. I was suffering from emacs pinky to the point where my hands were aching hours after leaving my desk. On weekends, my tennis racket grip was significantly weaker and form poorer. Mapping Ctrl to caps, right shift to Esc, and buying a $30 MS Ergonomic keyboard solved my issues. My friends who have had worse issues spent the $300 on a Kinesis (which I had up until then considered to be snake oil) but it seems to have solved their issues entirely (and for $300 it's definitely a cheap investment compared to the opportunity cost of the time invested in physical therapy).
If you're on Linux, you can at the os-level make modal changes. I made the right-alt key move into a different mode, so I effectively get an entirely separate key-mapping when that key is depressed. (E.g., hjkl for me is OS-wide, and sdfg lets me move the cursor. nb. Were I to make this decision again, I'd use Caps as my primary modifier, [ as my secondary, effectively giving me four full keyboard maps. Probably overkill but if I were using something like SolidWorks or Illustrator where having both keyboard and mouse access available often, I'd be experimenting with a setup like that -- keeping my right hand always on the mouse, and left for keyboard shortcuts -- biasing all of the shortcut keys to the left-hand region of the keyboard.)
ErgoDox implements a similar system but on the micro-controller level so you don't even have to putz with modifiers and it's cross OS. I don't have one but I would have bought one if I used a desktop more often, simply due to the trackball-feature (effectively letting one use a mouse without leaving the home-row -- a 'must-have' for me).
[0]: http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_pinky.html
One other thing is WorkRave which reminds me to take breaks. This is helpful for my hands, but has been frustrating for getting into the groove of programming.
The only thing vertical mice reduce is wrist movement.
Very true on games. I'd use for this too, and learning. Like someone else mentions a reactive keyboard would have been great when I was learning vi!
Carpal tunnel syndrome is a specific condition where your carpal tunnel constricts around a nerve. RSI is the umbrella term for these types of injuries.
An appropriate typo, because with this keyboard you can probably map the happy-poo emoji to your shit_key.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1229573443/das-keyboard...
The whole "cloud keyboard" thing does sound gimmicky, I just don't think it's reasonable to paint their entire product line that way.
I don't see a use case for this though, I rarely look at my keyboard.
Because usually there's absolutely no reason to do so, because it's static and you you have the layout in muscle memory.
- Because staring at your keyboard isn't great for your neck.
- Because when I'm typing I'm outputting my brain into the computer, I'm not trying to take in input.
- BECAUSE YOUR HANDS BLOCK THE KEYBOARD.
The mouse is more of a follow and enter type of interface, as is touch. Keyboards are a high ply (eg 102 keys + shifts) with chords and chains, in that a you generally hit a series of keys to do something (typing) and not a single button. So massively more options than the 12 they can get up there on the top row. So memorization wins out in my mind here.
Where I think this would help is when you're learning new things and have to move your hand to figure it out. Like say a new character in dota... but again the monitor is better.
This keyboard looks cool tho. Tho wish they'd put some non-mac pics up.
If I'm familiar with an application, I don't look at the keyboard. If I'm VERY familiar with an application, I don't even recall commands through their mnemonic, but through muscle memory.
For example, I've just switched to spacemacs from vim, and one of the first commands to learn is Ctrl+G, which is to exit from any menu. "Escape from menu" is not mapped into my brain as C-g, but as "pinky here and left index finger here." In contrast, when I want to change to next buffer, I think <SPC> b n, and not "thumb, right index finger on this button, then right index finger on this button" (although I'm sure that it will become muscle memory before long.)
HOWEVER, the nice thing about spacemacs is that you can press space and you see all possible commands pop up in the command buffer. This is a highly effective method for learning commands, and it is similar to how the "ribbon design" functioned in Microsoft Office 2007. This is where I think the E-ink keyboard could be most useful: in teaching keystrokes. It's essentially the same thing as looking down at the spacemacs command buffer, but you get to see the command pop up on your keyboard.
That being said, there are a lot of downsides to the whole idea. You're stuck with a very limited set of switch-and-layout combinations if you want an e-ink keyboard. Secondly, keyboards take a lot of abuse, and I don't know how much a replacement e-ink keycap costs, or where I'm going to get one (maybe this won't be such an issue, though). Finally, the glyph can only be represented as a glyph, and not as a detailed command like it can in a spacemacs buffer.
Cool product though; I'd get one if I had money to burn!
P.s The E Ink display isn't in contact with the actual user, the keys are just a transmissive body for the display.
If it wasn't cloud config I'd back it enough to get one.
For your keyboard I would highlight how the config only optionally uses cloud and that your settings are quite happy offline. I see cloud and keyboard or mouse and think "avoid". A couple of gaming devices and their awful connected software has caused that reaction. I'd expect some others to make similar association! :)
i will pass on this one because they keys are probably garbage, but I change my layout between several languages and i actually have some of the layouts printed out because i am still not very familiar with them.
Not my use case either, but visit any audio or video editing room. I will bet you money that every workstation will have colorful stickers on top of all the keyboards to remind the operators which keys do what on their audio/video editing software.
I see it as a vastly better add for a Macbook Pro than the touch sensitive bar.
If you're going to build a premium keyboard, then why not add mechanical keys, full size arrow keys and PgUp PgDn?
Not a peep of complaint from a coworker yet.
Can't PgUP be remapped, it's a dynamic keyboard.
Once we ship the product for laptop integration, we will push out more premium designs for those used to mechs and / or gamers.
P.S The perphial keys which were static in the old design was because we had to use an existing display. Making a custom E Ink display needs to be in at least 300k minimum order quantity so we had to wait until we had a mass production order; the current design has a new display which means all the keys are remappable.
https://sonderdesign.com/press-release-20161017/
The Goldtouch Go!2 tried to go in the direction of an ergonomic mobile keyboard, but the layout is crap and the separation of the two pieces and wrist rests make the Freestyle 2 vastly more ergonomic. You could also make 2 pieces that are separated completely wirelessly.
I used to have a model M-type keyboard, and I would disagree that these are the pinnacle of good keyboard design. Typing on a flat keyboard is not natural/good for your hands as you are almost constantly near the limit flexibility of your wrists and arms.
When you do get to step 2 tough, I think that 4% will prove to be underrated, because (a) RSI cases will only grow as the generations who grew up typing on computer keyboards gradually become a larger share, and (2) those making a living typing on a computer keyboard, insurance companies and employers who want to reduce costs are likely ready to spend hundreds for a healthy keyboard (I know I am).
If you can, try to find an Apple Standard Keyboard (M0116) or Apple Extended Keyboard (M0115), with orange-slider Alps switches. Try to find one in as close to unused condition as you can (ideally you want something which was stored inside a box for 25 years), as getting dust inside the mechanism affects the typing feel of Alps switches dramatically. If you can, also try to find some blue-slider (clicky) Alps switches from the same time period (late 80s through about 1990).
Most keyboard “enthusiasts” agree that these are nicer keyswitches than the AEK II’s cream-slider Alps switches. The later switches were after some cost cutting design changes at Alps (and maybe production expansions to new factories?). And also have their feel somewhat compromised by the inclusion of rubber dampers in the switch which were added to cut some of the sound.
Also, instead of a Model M, see if you can find a Model F. They’re in my opinion much more satisfying to type on, albeit a bit louder.
Other clicky switches you might try are blue SMK switches, black NMB–Hi Tek switches, and IBM beam spring switches.
Didn't realise the display was a single piece. Must make the switching and springing challenging to say the least. In fact I struggle to work out how you do it reliably with the tiny space between keys.
One to watch I hope. I look forward to interesting new products! Perhaps not a million miles from a modernised M with media and so forth. Or ergonomic.
ps, licence your keyboard to Apple in preference to getting bought by them, the Linux and PC worlds might like them too. ;)
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing while reviewing this.
An e-ink cherryMX switch keyboard, with a backlight and numpad, would be an instant buy from me (even in the hundreds of dollars range).
Once we ship the first laptop module and standalone, it's the planned next product (maybe with colour E Ink if E Ink Holdings has a time line for release).
I learned to type on a Model M keyboard. But are they actually better? Or is it all psycho-somatic? I don't think I type any slower on a modern scissor-switch keyboard. And frankly it's a lot less physical exertion and not to mention quieter.
None of them have lasted, or had the build quality, or felt as nice. More than a few have been actively irritating. The silly price Roccat was the least reliable of the lot.
I keep coming back to my M. If it's placebo it's a convincing one.
I think I get less fatigue. For example on my laptop, I feel like I keep hitting my fingers on hard surface and it gets tiring and they hurt a lot sooner than when I type on my Model M.
On laptops, Thinkpads have the best so far I've seen (tried Acer, HP, Macbook Pro).
With physical excretion, it is an interesting point. I just bolt modded my Model M (that means replacing some of the aging plastic rivets inside with metal bolts, which requires a complete disassembly and drilling holes and so on). And so for a while was using a generic keyboard with Cherry MX blue switches. Also clicky but a lot less resistance.
When I switched back to my fixed up Model M I noticed my fingers were weaker and it was hard to type. After a bit of time on it was back on track. I think fingers get stronger or get used to it perhaps.
But I totally don't discount this being a placebo effect. I know I am irrational about being attached to this keyboard. I just spent a large number of hours fiddling with it, ordering custom parts, and so on. If you ask me I'll probably tell you my program compile faster too when I type them on it ;-)
It's a fun novelty for sure, but I feel like the above target market is so tiny that the majority of purchases will be impulse buys because it seems cool, rather than because it's actually useful.
In this case technology makes law pointless
> In this case technology makes law pointless
Spanish keyboards usually have 1 extra key so they are typically 105 keys; in Japan they are 109 keys. From my experiences in Spain, if you are buying as a company (even if you purchase it at Carrefour or El Corte Inglais) you will pay a small premium for those non-local keyboards.
Many applications.
This looks really interesting. Yes/no depends on key feel.
I wasn't convinced by the Apple chiclet keyboard when I saw it, but I've lived with one for a year and a half now, and I'm completely comfortable with it.
If this has a similar feel I'll be seriously tempted.
P.s I hate this comment on reddit but I couldn't help myself. The mech is also manufactured to the spec for a standard laptop spec, it should feel pretty familiar.
No thanks.
It would need a good api, too if you want to react to chained keystrokes or application states/modes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1tmjDDK7jY
What about an inverted look? Too much backlight bleeding through or looking OK at night? :)
And did you invent new key mechanics to keep the key clear all the way to the bottom?
>Foxconn
As a startup, our strategic partners are incredibly important, we did a study into our supply chain to ensure it's ethical and responsible. Despite the tragedies in the past; Foxconn is the safest, they offer counseling for mental health. , They have a worker population of over a million, statistically the tragic incidents are actually a few times less common than the rest of the Chinese population and around 7 times less than the states.
I lived on their campus for around 5 months, Foxconn takes this very seriously and is doing it's best. From the little things like on average a 15% wage increase year on year for the last few years (seriously), to programs where workers can learn English and other skills.
It's frustrating they have bad PR, one thing living on campus you see is in Chinese work culture, you will nap at your desk at lunch for about an hour or so; when reports emerged they used footage and said works were worked into exhaustion.
Also for all those folks saying they don't look at their keyboards while typing: I don't either, except for when I have a particular key stroke committed to muscle memory, which is to say for all new applications that I would like to begin using.
Having something like this would substantially lower the barrier to entry for all keyboard centric apps. So to me it's worth it, even if I know going in that I wouldn't always look at the changing keycaps when I used them.
All that said, I gotta admit that now that I know Apple's Touch Bar is a thing, I would very, very much like to see it, or something like it, stuck on this keyboard.
http://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/maximus/
Also, I really want to like Bluetooth. Built-in generic connectivity! Yet, at least once a day I have to reset a connection between my MacBook and a peripheral, or my phone and a peripheral. Touchpad batteries died and need to be replaced? Yeah, that's a reboot. Headphones won't connect? Re-pair. I hate that my Logitech keyboard comes with a dongle, but it works and I get why they included it.
It looks great otherwise, even though I'll be curious to test the feedback of the keys as the mechanics seem to be on the sides of each, and not under as usual.
How can you type if you can't feel the keys under your hand, or if your fingers slide around instead of being centered on each key?
Then again, sometimes it does take special software to support caps lock remapping.