No, but without new ideas they'll soon start to shrink. Apple is in a very fast business, not coming up with new ideas means losing business very quickly.
They could of course just enjoy sales from the iphone and live off past innovation, but that would mean that they could cut costs by at least 50% and fire most of the workforce. Don't know if that's what they want.
They're a public company. If the company isn't growing, there's little incentive to hold the stock. (The current 2% dividend is a pitiful return, you can get that level of return from an Australian savings account.) If they're not growing & the dividend isn't big enough, then the stock price (and hence company value) will start falling as people cash out.
If Apple can take themselves private again, there will be less pressure on them to keep growing.
If as you say the stock price falls, Apple could just buy back their own stock. They have a huge cash reserve.
What I'm getting at is I think everybody is overly concerned that Apple isn't releasing any "new" devices. They don't really have to. Looking at market share, they completely dominate on the products they already have. If anything, they can sit back, wait for the "next big thing" and do what Apple typically does best: Copy it, and make it so much better.
But they do, and they have. The iPad was huge and sold very, very well, and still is one of their top products, even though the market has become saturated because newer iterations aren't as big steps forwards as it was with the iphone, and people are less likely to upgrade ipads because they don't need to (and there's less incentive like with the 2-3 year phone plans).
And the Mac has always been their core product, especially since Apple's comeback with the imac. It's no longer their main source of income, but it's a very strong brand that had consistently been getting more and more market share over time. It probably didn't have the huge margin and volume of the iphone, but it'd be a critical error if they were to discontinue it. They should invest more in it, I think; rebrand the new Macbook Pro to just Macbook, come out with a new line of Pros that are bigger again (with pro hardware and features, for the discerning user), update the Mac Pro, etc.
Aren't they allowed to sit on the iPhone? Why must they come up with amazing new stuff when they've already got a mountain of cash and loyal fans who love the point release updates?
In other industries like cars, the manufacturers don't necessarily create hugely different models every year, but only small improvements on last year's model, and they seem to do okay.
Personally I think the touch-bar thing on the Mac is unremarkable, even a gimmick. Why would anyone want the furniture moving around on their keyboard? I could be wrong, I suppose if it's highly customizable then it will be handy for programmable shortcuts.
> Aren't they allowed to sit on the iPhone? Why must they come up with amazing new stuff when they've already got a mountain of cash and loyal fans who love the point release updates?
Apple cannot rest on their laurels because if they stop innovating Android manufactures will implement all of their features and sell the phones for cheaper than an iPhone. The Google Pixel is a killer phone and could easily steal some iPhone market share if a new iPhone does not keep iterating with new features.
If Apple keeps removing two features for every new one that they add, that's going to upset some customers.
Phone markets aren't really about features; Android phones already out-feature (although not out-perform) iPhones all over the place. It's the usability and image that Apple sells on. And Apple believe - sometimes correctly - that removing features improves usability. Or at least keeping them coherent.
> Aren't they allowed to sit on the Apple II? Why must they come up with amazing new stuff when they've already got a mountain of cash and loyal fans who love the point release updates?
Last time Apple built the entire company around a single product (Apple II) they almost went bankrupt.
Not quite the same thing. iPhone gets updated. The Apple II didn't release "Apple II v2,v3 etc" (as far as I know anyway).
And the iPhone isn't a single product, but has all sorts of dependencies via the app store and iTunes. Not to mention the built-in features like the camera, maps, AI, and whatever else it can do natively. In fact, modern smartphones can do so much, consumers probably find it hard to keep up with it all.
And finally, if I were Apple, I'd release an advertisement along the lines of "fire-proof gloves not required" or something clever with a subtle dig at the Samsung disaster which undoubtedly strengthened iPhone sales.
> Aren't they allowed to sit on the iPhone? Why must they come up with amazing new stuff when they've already got a mountain of cash and loyal fans who love the point release updates?
If you're not growing, you're stagnating or declining. If Apple don't continue to innovate, then someone else will pick up the baton. Android continues to get better and better as a mobile OS, and the Android ecosystem continues to get better too. Linux and Windows both have some improvements over macOS, although macOS is better than them in other ways; if Apple continues to under-invest here then there won't be much reason to run its software, meaning there won't be much reason to buy its hardware. We've already seen that Apple's hardware itself is not as good as it could be, which means that offerings from other companies are comparatively more competitive.
> In other industries like cars, the manufacturers don't necessarily create hugely different models every year, but only small improvements on last year's model, and they seem to do okay.
I don't know if I'd go that far. On the one hand, cars haven't radically changed in decades (they still have four tyres, a steering wheel, windows, seats; most use internal-combustion engines), but OTOH they have changed: roll cages, crush zones, airbags, infotainment systems, heated & cooled seats, more intelligence, electric engines.
And indeed it's the models which do offer the most innovation which get the most attention. I don't know if they're the most profitable though.
When built in sat-navs came on the scene, apparently many people still preferred to use their dedicated satnav devices such as Garmins because the built-in varieties in their fancy new car were prone to bad UX, inferior performance, and difficulties with updating the maps and so on. No doubt sorted out in many cases, but this was a widespread problem, an example of the pitfalls of eager innovation.
I'm sure Apple will be fine. Their first attempt at the iPad Pro wasn't received that well, but they'll fix that and deliver something good next year. I'm actually on the lookout for a tablet I can draw on, but I'm hesitant to buy a Surface Pro because I don't trust Windows 10. I don't want my OS to be a service with mandatory updates and whatever other control they take away, but then again that's where Apple are headed too. I prefer the OS to be in the background, out of sight, not pushing itself to the foreground, desperate for attention and relevance.
Because I think (IMHO) the smartphone industry is about to hit the same problem that Microsoft hit with Office. How do you impress your customer base year after year? Do you hit a point were adding more features to your product is making it more complicated and worse off because of it? Has your competition caught up just enough that in the eyes of the consumer, the difference between best and second best in your product category is small - and price becomes the most important item on the feature list?
Product category churn is something all companies need to keep their finger on. Eventually, everything becomes a commodity and price is the only thing you can improve on. And profit margins become the casualty.
And yes, I do think the auto industry is about to hit the foothills of this curve.
I disagree on the point that there's not more room for growth on mobile hardware. They're still miles below desktop performance. I still can't plop them into a desktop dock. The camera can definitely be upgraded continuously (not that I use it much). Otherwise I agree, the form factor feels pretty solidified. I doubt we'll see truly game changing innovation in mobile for some time to come.
See Microsoft as an example. They sat on Office which was making them money.
Then the market shifted and Microsoft had to scramble, change the leadership team, their structure, their goals, etc. Took a while.
Not saying Apple has to come up with amazing stuff all the time. Just need to look for opportunities outside of iPhone. Or even with the smartphone segment.
They are doing fine right now. But what about in 5 years?
While the idea of hiring all the writers is cute, the "known" writers all have deals in place already. So Apple would be effectively taking a gamble on all unknown talent. That may or may not pay off.
Buying TWC is a monumentally stupid idea for Apple that I won't even go into.
Apple is obviously working on things (including self driving car systems), it just doesn't announce them and it doesn't hesitate to cancel them if it doesn't like the results. Those are, IMHO, good qualities about Apple.
The idea that Apple has to get into a new category is kind of ridiculous. It doesn't have to do anything. It has solid profits and tons of money on hand. They can coast. The stock value will go down or stall for a bit if they do, but so what? When they release another great product, if it is successful, the stock price will reflect it at that time.
I'd expect it to pay off... eventually. This would be the sort of thing where I'd expect it to take a decade, easily -- the idea being, as you point out, to snap up all the new talent. Eventually someone will hit, but it might take a while. (Yes, some writers may well object, but that is orthogonal to which ones will write hits.)
When they release another great product, if it is successful, the stock price will reflect it at that time.
One of the things that keep senior engineers at a company like Apple is vast amount of money they can make from their stock options. If the share price tanks then the senior engineers don't make anywhere close to the money they can make elsewhere, so they leave. That makes it harder to develop a successful product.
I'm not suggesting Apple is a single failure away from a death spiral, but I am saying they can't rest on their laurels simply because they're Apple.
> they can't rest on their laurels simply because they're Apple.
No, but they can because they have something like $200 billion cash on hand. Which means if they really care about their stock price they can do a buy back if they want. Or if they are worried about employee compensation due to lagging stock price they can give bonuses, etc.
No, but they can because they have something like $200 billion cash on hand.
That's technically true, but getting that money to a place where they can use it to buy back stock or to pay bonuses to their engineering staff would be incredibly expensive. There's a reason why they've not repatriated it yet.
Even if it costs them 50 cents on the dollar to use that money, that's still a good chunk of money to fall back on, isn't it?
I can imagine that you wouldn't actively take risks with money that's expensive to use, but if they were already in a death spiral, wouldn't they use it to avoid going down the drain entirely?
It seems absurd to me to sit on $200 billion if you can't use at least a good fraction of it - but I don't even begin to understand the legal and accounting issues with handling that sort of money.
From a comment on the article, that could be applied to a future quad-core Mac Mini derivative:
"I would love to seem them cannibalize their lack luster, overpriced iCloud by introducing a “personal cloud” home server product (that would also be the hub for HomeKit, and all that other stuff). Apple getting back to their roots as a high-margin value added hardware company. NAS systems are terrible, especially when trying to integrate them into a macOS and iOS network."
You're thinking the Time Capsule, which is basically an Airport base station with a hard drive that can be used for Time Machine backups. I don't know what other functions it has.
I've always hated Cringely's opinions on Apple and this article is no exception. He has simply been wrong about them time and time again, yet people looking for FUD disguised as thoughtful criticism keep giving him hits. Apple, by every known metric known to the financial world, is doing spectacularly well. They are innovating at the same pace the always have, which has always been a brand new product category every 3-5 years with a series of incremental improvements on existing products from year to year. They absolutely dominate the wealthiest subset of the consumer market, and as such, they can seek rent for the next 10-20 years and continue to make money hand-over-fist for themselves and their investors without ever introducing a new product again. But they're going to continue to innovate just like they always have, and that innovation is going to be met with skepticism, ridicule, and dismissiveness just as it always has been. Bet against Apple at your own peril. Having closely followed them since 2003 when I made the switch to OS X myself, I've yet to see a single indication that they have made anything but the best business decisions of any company during that same period (possibly ever).
How is releasing the iPhone 7 which is port-wise incompatible with the new MBP a "best business decision of any company" when they clearly knew the product timetables?
The Google Pixel phone is better suited for the new MBP than the iPhone.
I think there are serious leadership problems at Apple and these sorts of incompatibilities among their own products is a symptom.
I'm stuck on my late 2011 MBP because every model after it is failing at the 'professional' part by removing ports and upgradeable/swappable components. USB-C is nice and all but it's not sufficient as the only port (and with only 3 of them left while charging).
I'm not saying every single decision they've made has been the best. I'm saying that on the whole their decisions have been among the best as demonstrated by their dominant market position and insane growth and profits over the past 16 years.
You should really read "Haunted Empire" that talks about Apple's struggles right after Jobs died. Right now we're seeing the end result of losing his vision of design.
Apple has gone cheap. That's what is wrong. The Late 2012 Mac Mini I bought recently died for no apparent reason. It had upgradeable hard disks and memory. The 2014 version I just replaced it with has 4GB of RAM soldered onto the board and the case is designed not to be opened at all. That is just one small example, but a) the one I had shouldn't have died, and b) the replacement isn't anywhere as good as the old one.
> And as IBM reported a couple weeks ago, even at higher prices, Macs tend to be cheaper to own. I’m writing this on a mid-2010 non-Retina 13-inch MacBook Pro I bought six years ago last June. Yes, over time I increased the memory to from four to 16 gigs, took the hard drive up from 240 gigs to a terabyte Fusion drive, replaced both the battery and the keyboard when they wore out, but that still puts me only about $1600 into this device with which I have so far generated well over $1 million in revenue.
My own experience with Apple's computers has been similar. The last Apple I purchased was a MacBook Pro back in 2006/7 that lasted me a solid eight years, including three in an extremely hot and dusty environment. The only problem it ever had was a faulty optical drive (and I did always have lots of trouble with Apple's laptop optical drives). But that is just one more individual experience.
Anyway, I don't know that "revenue generated while using the computer" really says anything at all. And I doubt Apple would come out ahead in that calculation industry wide.
> And as IBM reported a couple weeks ago, even at higher prices, Macs tend to be cheaper to own.
>but that still puts me only about $1600 into this device
I always forget how dis-attached and money-blind pro-apple authors are from the 98% of people and how they approach money. I guess if I was in the 1%, I'd also think Apple was the cheap option! (I'd probably also think that about Lexus and BMW...)
$1600 over 6 years, or about $270 a year, is not inexpensive and the false label "cheaper to own" is absurd to the highest degree.
I could go out right now and buy a $600 laptop, a $200 chromebook, and be out $800 dollars. Then I could build a $500 rather powerful budget desktop, and be at $1300, with three devices, and have $300 leftover for repairs or upgrades.
I could buy a $800 laptop and another one in 3-6 years for that price.
I could buy an iPad, a Chromebook, and a $600 laptop. I could buy three $500 laptops.
There is no universe in existence where spending $1600 total cost of ownership in 6 years approaches ANYTHING CLOSE to "cheaper to own".
Frankly, I DON'T EVEN KNOW windows users who have spent $1600 in the past 6 years total, except for hardcore PC gamers whose hardware so dramatically eclipses the medium-grade consumer level tech in Apple laptops that to compare them is entertaining and silly.
>oh my, once you discover the concept of TCO your mind will be blown.
Haha I love when users attempt to act condescending, but actually demonstrate their own reading comprehension failure.
TCO --- you mean TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP, a concept I discussed at length in the post you're replying to?
Wow, imagine that. I'd love to discover a topic for the first time that I already discussed at length with over 4 different total cost comparisons, including repairs and upgrades.
EDIT: IF we want to do TCO, mind you, I notice pro-apple folks don't include the $100-$200 of mandatory spider-web adapters you have to buy, as well. TCO is complicated and it's easy for Apple fans to hide the significantly overpriced Apple accessory costs from it :)
same issues apply, even worse for home users. spyware, crapware, win10 upgrades, hardware issues, etc. - but where do you go for help? family or best buy?
One has to consider the total cost of ownership for the average user as well. Most of the people who come to HN probably know how to avoid or clean up malware on a Windows machine, but your average computer user doesn't. Macs are the perfect mix of usability and obscurity that keep them relatively stable in the hands of the less internet savvy.
Case in point, my landlords have an old AMD64 (single core, 2.4 GHz, I think) system with 1 gig of RAM, running Vista. For the past five years, they've called me at least four times per year to come out to their house and clean up browser extensions and unwanted software that piggybacked on other program's installers. I don't charge them since I consider it a favor, but each time they pay me at least $50.
So that cheapo computer cost them $1000 over the past five years. They could've spent less than that, up front, and got a middle of the road refurbished Mac and likely would've never (or rarely) had to call me at all. I've suggested this or a flavor of Linux too, but they're afraid of change. Instead, they recently bought a little Dell netbook running Windows 10 for $270, and I expect the calls will keep coming.
Frankly, a $300 Chromebook serves that "usability / obscurity" niche for 95% of those users for 1/5 the price.
You don't need a $1200 laptop to browse the internet safely.
This is a part of the "price blindness" of pro Apple users who are unwilling to consider the sub $1000 market, and seek to rationalize the value of what is fairly the worlds most expensive mass produced luxury laptop.
Wanting a Mac is fine, but pretending it's a cost-conscious decision that returns great value for the average internet browser is pretty ridiculous IMO.
What does a $1200 macbook do that a $500 iPad can't for the average user?
so we're against any notebooks now, as a typical user only ever needs a tablet? great, you've confirmed Apple's strategy across PCs and iPads (incl. the iPad Pro).
they're abandoning the Air and cheaper lines for that very reason - the iPads and iPhones are good enough now.
MPBs are now a testing ground for new inputs (Touchbar) and port unification. Eventually they all add a full touchscreen keyboard, once it can do haptic response (see the iPhone7 home button for a preview). first the Touchbar will become haptic, so we're at least 2 iterations away from it.
Actually more likely that this thing then ends up in the iPad product line, fully destroying the classic PC line. but who knows.
>I've suggested this or a flavor of Linux too, but they're afraid of change.
But go ahead and continue making assumptions about how "price blind" I am. I'm far from an Apple fanboy, but Apple is a brand that most people recognize, and yet usually stays free from the issues that Windows has among the less technologically inclined (which includes my 60-something year old landlords).
> Remember the original 128K Macintosh cost more than $2400 and it was close to useless.
As opposed to the other 68K offerings at the time it was pretty good, it brought window managed user interfaces to the masses (rather than those Apollo workstations that probably nobody remembers).
The ST was a game changer price wise but that 'useless' 128K Mac in many ways wrote history.
When my son went to college I told him, you can have an AirBook, or you can get a Levono Yoga and replace it every 2 years. He choose the Yoga and he is still using it 3 years later.
If the machines have the same build quality (or, another more subtle thing Apple's laptops have, an air around them that they should be handled with care) and the software is secure (Windows had (has?) real problems with viruses and shit), then I don't see why anyone would have to replace their laptop after 5 years anymore. CPU's are fast enough and software isn't getting more bloated. Memory is abundant and cheap. SSD's solved the last main bottleneck in computers 5+ years ago.
I have a PC at home, almost passing the 5 year mark now. No problems with it, fast enough, plays the latest games. Only problems I've had with it was corrupted memory banks, but I'm inclined to think that's more to do with installing it myself than anything.
How do viruses relate to hardware longevity? Are there viruses in the wild bricking Windows PCs?
I bought an $850 Thinkpad T410 in 2010. Every time I've checked new laptops in the past couple of years I concluded that it wasn't worth upgrading - I'd only get a twofold increase in performance for $800+.
(Also reduced weight and increased battery life, but as a 6 ft. guy with a roommy backpack, carrying a 5 lbs laptop and a 1.5 lbs spare battery is not a problem.)
It still works fine but I ended up buying a higher spec'ed* mint-condition refurbished T410 for $250 this year, and a USB3 expansion card. I expect to get a good run out of it since I can cannibalize the old one for parts.
Not everyone has the time and know-how to service their own laptop, but for someone who does, like me, the nice thing with the Thinkpad ecosystem is the abundance of cheap end-of-lease refurbished parts and accessories, which are i) cheap and ii) probably better maintained than what you can get used from some bloke on craigslist.
(But the flipside is that new Lenovo parts and accessories are horrendously overpriced, since they target businesses.)
*HDD vs SSD, 8gb vs 4gb memory, i7 vs i5, 1400x900 vs 1280x800, discrete vs integrated graphics.
My Lenovo, which cost >$800 and had a $120 SSD upgrade from 2007 still runs just fine. What alternative evidence is there that macs last longer other than fanatical circle jerking?
Do those upgrades listed include labor at apple care? The numbers don't even add up.
Not to mention, unless there have been some large strides in macOS lately, older apple products seem to lag pretty hard when you upgrade to the current OS and basically stop working if you don't. Windows 10 runs great on old PCs and many apps still function all the way back to Windows Vista.
From what I found, Apple's laptops are sligthly above average in terms of reliability [0]. Sqaretrade sells warranties though, so there might be some selection bias, but I'm not sure if it would benefit Apple or not.
I'm willing to assume the selection bias affects all brands in a similar enough way to call it even. The bigger issues is that this is 7 years old now, I wouldn't rely on it too much unless you're buying an 8-10 year old laptop.
The IBM guy said Macs are more expensive to buy but cheaper to support, because
>Only 5% of IBM's Mac employees needed help-desk support, versus 40% of PC users
Guessing what percentage of Linux users needed help desk support is left as an exercise to the reader.
The economics of a business maintaining a fleet of laptops for mostly clueless users vs a tech-savvy individual maintaining their own laptop are not the same.
Also keep in mind that IBM started a Mac enterprise integration service last year. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
Indeed. As soon as you're willing to accept something a bit less pretty and slighly clunkier in usability, you can save a huge amount of money over Apple devices.
But the new MacBooks are not upgradable (like the previous models). Will 256 GB SSD and 16 gig RAM be enough in 8 years? It will really depend on what you use your laptop for, but for most professions I would say no.
It may take a while for a 3rd party replacement to become available, but it's not soldered onto the motherboard. If you take it to Apple with a SSD failure, they're not going to bill you $800 for a new logic board to fix it.
Not sure where this assumption came from. It's like everyone's saying "I don't like this computer, so everything about it must be terrible."
I loved taking my 2013 maxed out RMBP to the Apple Store and being told the charging circuit for the battery needed to be replaced. Oh good, I thought, maybe $200?
No. $795+tax. "You might want to look at buying a new Mac" which got me same screen, same SSD, same memory, CPU from Haswell to Broadwell... I love planned obsolescence and "part pricing to encourage replacement, not repair".
It doesn't seem like anyone really read beyond the headline for that IBM keynote. He was only referring to the difference in cost for enterprise support across 100,000 machines.
Wasn't one of the main premises of it that it reduced IT support time? "Only 5% of IBM's Mac employees needed help desk support versus 40% of PC users." In that case, it's even less of a relevant comparison now.
Exactly. The headline of the article[0] Cringely links - IBM says it is 3X more expensive to manage PCs than Macs - doesn't even say anything about Apple computers being "cheaper to own", as Cringely puts it.
Admittedly, I haven't read the entire thing. I stopped when I got to third paragraph because it seemed like an odd statement with no real backup other than the very general quote from IBM -
> There are lots of reasons for this, not least that better OS software means Apple needs to update its systems far less often than Microsoft updates Windows. "We have to go out and manage the Mac environment 104 fewer times a year than PC," Previn said.
I don't doubt IBM's information here by any means, but just as with Cringley's and my own example of consumer MacBook ownership, it's only one example - "IBM finds Apple computers cheaper to manage", not "Apple computers are cheaper to own".
I think what the article fails to touch on is that people (myself included) used to love upgrading to the new Apple products because of new innovations or upgraded tech. The second-hand market for Apple products shouldn't be looked at as a problem, but rather a new demographic of people entering the ecosystem which might have been out of their price range otherwise.
For me, I was itching for a reason to upgrade from my 2012 rMBP and to be honest, I have no plans to now. I don't want a thinner or lighter laptop, I just want everything to work all at once and some better battery life. The USB-C (and they fact that they didn't even mention it during the terrible keynote) was my biggest drawback, because now I literally have to buy adapters to plug in to my pre-existing adapters for this damn thing to work... Nope.
When Apple got rid of the CD/DVD drive, or FireWire, it wasn't this much of an issue because I could agree that those were things I didn't use (along with the vast majority). But with the headphone jack (on the iPhones only thankfully), and now the SD card reader, USB, HDMI, and Mini-DP... All things I use on an almost daily basis. It sucks that people will have to buy ~ $100 of adapters to get their old functionality back.
Also, if they're really touting this thing as such a professional's device, then their magical touch bar is even more flawed. I plug in external monitors when I use Final Cut Pro, Lightroom, Photoshop, etc. - most of their demos. Looking at a different monitor and then using the touch bar seems like such an awkward gesture.
I'm in the same boat. I have a MBP 2012 (non-retina), and could probably use an upgrade (although I just built a powerful desktop PC). I could deal with the removal of Ethernet, but the fact that I'll have to purchase 3 separate adapters (given I'll leave the fourth port for charging) is ridiculous. On top of that, the price is inexcusable. The lowest-end MacBook Pro costs $1,500 and has a 2.0GHz Dual-Core processor (which my current Mac outperforms), 8GB of RAM, a 256GB SSD, Intel Iris Graphics 540 (nothing impressive for a "pro" device), and two Thunderbolt 3 ports (only one port is accessible while charging...). Oh, and it doesn't even sport the new "touch bar" gimmick. For an extra $400, you get a faster clock speed (on a dual-core...), slightly faster RAM, and two extra ports. Point being, every model is extremely overpriced.
Now, it's not the best comparison, as desktops and laptops have their own benefits, but if someone was to build a PC with the specs of the cheapest MacBook Pro (excluding peripherals), it would cost significantly less
Go Cringely! Very interesting proposition. I am a believer that when we free ourselves from surviving day to day (to which we are pretty close), that the creatives will be the people in the highest demand. Or at least I can dream of such a day.
Apple is doing and will do a shitload of money anyway.
People will buy Apple stuff anyway because people already are: unless you are an Apple user, you should know how "religious" (I'm being kind here) Apple users are. They have been consciously been buying outdated and overpriced hardware until now, and they have been super proud about this too.
Also, unless Apple software actively gets in the way of users doing their stuff it is all going to be "okay".
So this is going to last anything from five to ten years at least, still imho.
I have no true idea whether newer apple stuff is so bad or not (besides the idiotic drop of the audio jack on the iPhone). But Apple users have been subject to this Apple-isy for literally decades.
I have a suspicion that now that Apple Macbook Pros are so widespread, complaining about Apple is the new hipsteria.
This is what I feel, reading the news, on a foggy October, almost-November morning.
Apple has been getting bad press these days because:
- A lot of employees left the Apple Car project, it is now reduced to software only
- Siri is lagging behind other assistants
- Removed the audio jack off the iPhone
- Removed USB ports on the macbook
The only exception, Apple Music, is catching up to Spotify but that comes at the cost of paying for exclusives.
Also declining software reliability; declining hardware performance; lack of real vision or creativity; emphasis on superficial hardware changes (smaller, thinner, etc) over engineering significant new classes of customer benefits.
"People will buy Apple stuff anyway because people already are: unless you are an Apple user, you should know how "religious" (I'm being kind here) Apple users are. They have been consciously been buying outdated and overpriced hardware until now, and they have been super proud about this too."
This is a usual mistake people make. They assume that performance is simply a matter of specifications. It's not.
A few years back people bought Nokia phones because they were the best you could get. Some people would never buy something else. The same with blackberry a few years later.
The fanbase clearly helps Apple at the moment, but it can disappear within a few years if another company manages to make something truly better.
>>They have been consciously been buying outdated and overpriced hardware until now, and they have been super proud about this too.
It's not about the hardware. It's about the tight and seamless integration between the hardware and the software. The competitors are living in a completely different reality in that regard.
> It's not about the hardware. It's about the tight and seamless integration between the hardware and the software. The competitors are living in a completely different reality in that regard.
Y'know, you're not wrong, but here's the thing: once I set up a Linux desktop or laptop, it just works, just like a Mac does. From what I can ascertain, Windows is the same. It's not like the 80s, dealing with IRQs and what-not. Linux is a little more annoying, with proprietary drivers for some graphics cards, but again: once it's set up, it runs. The integration is just as tight as on a Mac: the hard drive stores data (with a better file system than HFS+ …); the graphics card displays graphics; the USB system delivers data; the headphone ports play music.
Not only that, but I also have freedom, which is no small thing. So, the experience is a bit worse at set-up time, and better on an ongoing basis. That's not a bad trade-off.
The comment on Apple at industry conferences is a bit of a misnomer. I've seen at least 12-15 Apple engineers (from the backend Siri team) at MesosCon this year and last year when I went. In fact, they gave a talk[1] about how the re-did the entire Siri backend ontop of Mesos and it has became much more reliable as a result.
beautiful qed - armchair product guy analyses situation (ok viewpoint), then makes a suggestion so asinine that it acts as a reminder just how hard product work is.
as tech is becoming mainstream, more and more "football coaches" will spout their nonsense, just like in sports.
This is a better-reasoned opinion than much of Cringely's recent work. That's not exactly a recommendation, though. He's an idea guy, some of which he shares, some of which he doesn't, but it's another thing to execute on said ideas.
From what I've seen of the latest Apple devices, they make sense to Apple if Apple wants greater integration between OS X and iOS, as in eventually having a single OS on all Apple devices. The new bar on the keyboard helps with iOS-style swipe gestures, standardisation on USB Type C means peripherals can target iOS and OS X devices, etc...
That's the only explanation that makes sense to me.
Perhaps that was a bit of a stretch, though both are protocol-agnostic, so switching from Lightning to USB-C in the future may not be as problematic as it could be.
So the whole point of this article is to get to his magical idea, that Apple should somehow hire all the screenwriters and be then be granted the streaming rights for all of their work? Just a tiny problem (well many problems, but this is the most glaring) in all that:
The companies who actually pay for and produce the movies, films, documentaries, etc would never agree to it.
They grew so big, they can now afford to sit at cruising altitude and release a few updates here and there.
If they're not growing to your liking, blame consumers for handing over all that cash year after year just for the Apple brand, and hopefully a useful product that turns on, turns off and all those other fancy things.
I found the idea to be startling in this context. However, the idea itself isn't all that crazy. I believe CAA (Creative Artist Agency) had done something similar to sell their bundled talent packages for movies. If I remember correctly they bought up a huge amount of screenplay rights and then bundled them with their own actors, directors, etc.
There seems to be a lot of frustration about Apple not being able to finish negotiations with the US broadcast networks for some form of video streaming service.
This looks like Cringely's solution to the problem: just own the content at the source of creation and then the downwind problems will sort themselves out in Apple's favor.
My idea? Apple should purchase Dish Network/EchoStar and merge their satellite and Sling systems into the Apple ecosystem.
(You also get to own a fleet of deployed geosync satellites. That could be cool for other applications down the line).
The main point of the article is for a noted tech industry observer (and one-time Apple employee) to say what he sees when he looks at Apple right now.
The magical idea is just a lark thrown in for amusement. Cringely often tosses out semi-crazy ideas as entertainment.
That's hilarious. "Corner the market in screenwriters". As if Hollywood isn't better at fighting dirty in that kind of environment than most other businesses.
Trying to produce a vertically integrated lock-in based system where you can only watch the latest shows on a multi-thousand dollar computer is also going to go down very badly with the public.
He's right - Apple has a numbers problem ins that they need to have any potential investment be a big product category almost immediately. They've been notoriously careful to avoid random development in the public eye. When they have come to the market with half-baked products (Maps, AppleTV, iCloud/Mobile Me) they've tended to double down on them, rather than walk them backwards.
The highly integrated approach they've taken to hardware, software, and services across Watch, phone, tablet, computer, apps and a number of accessories have put them in an awkward place. They need to integrate more things into the stack, and whatever they choose needs to be almost immediately integrated into the full stack. HomeKit has been an effort to jump into the IoT with a better platform. Seemingly, Apple's main strategy now is to rely on the accessories or apps to highlight opportunities (siri, maps, etc) and then buy them and integrate them. I suggest that Apple should probably buy Sonos to continue pushing HomeKit and to follow on their acquisition of Beats, especially given the tighter integration that Sonos now has with the Apple ecosystem.
The lack of an obvious target for complete ecosystem integration is not only their lack of creativity, but the lack of obvious consumer demand for additional pieces of the puzzle. CarPlay is very nice, but it doesn't change car buying behavior, it is more like icing on the deal.
Finally, this leaves Software, which Apple has been investing less in since creating the app store. They've become comfortable as a platform company and have been unable to beat Adobe and others in the pro app market. To any professional, Software should be the obvious target, but it seems the vast majority of Apple's customers don't care enough to seek alternatives to Apple's apps. I think the lack of focus on pro software is what is really behind the lack of newer pro-level machines, since I suspect that APple's engineers on the software side were really the ones pushing for greater levels of machine performance (Logic, Aperture, Final Cut X).
Right now, Apple has Breadth in their stack, and they need depth. Software is the way to build depth, but it is not clear that Apple has anyone who understands software beyond OS-level details.
I'll clarify, they understand how to write software, but not what software to write.
They killed Aperture rather than compete with Lightroom, despite many people still using it. They replaced iPhoto with Photos (which is TERRIBLE, even for consumers). They replaced Final Cut with Final Cut X which eliminated half of the features at launch. iMovie loses random features with every major update (cut/paste across projects? really?) I don't need to really explain the number of things wrong with iTunes. The Mac App store itself doesn't work that well, except in highlighting the poor reviews of Apple's own apps.
Now, nearly 2 years later, Final Cut and Logic have passed 4 stars, but they no longer offer a real photo editor of any kind, and they replaced Aperture/iPhoto with a pathetic iOS clone app.
So, I think I'm on pretty solid ground saying they don't get it.
I've been a Mac user since I was old enough to crawl, so I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment. However it would seem the issue these days is actually that they're unable to prioritize the right product decisions for their customers, because of the internal mechanisms which ensure their short-term continued growth. A symptom of the modern world, IMO….
CarPlay ABSOLUTELY changes car buying behaviour, at least in some instances.
In one case I heard of, a young lady bought a car with CarPlay, and when it didn't work, she tried to make the dealership buy it back under a lemon law. The dealership made Car Play work, and she kept the car.
If I want to buy a car (used or new) and find out that it has CarPlay I will go back because I refuse to buy an iPhone and it wont work with my Android so what's the point?
>I will double down because I refuse to buy an iPhone
Doubling down is a term from black jack where you double your bet because you think you have a good chance of winning. So in this case, you will offer double the money to buy a car because it has a feature you don't want?
Cars with Android Auto and Apple CarPlay still have the automaker's UI, whatever that may be, or you can buy third party "radios" that replace the head unit.
With regard to CarPlay I disagree. I will never buy a car that doesn't support it or Android Auto. The software that car manufacturers create suck. I'd rather have no computer interface - all knobs and buttons - than deal with the garbage that car manufacturers use.
I know I am just one data point but pretty much everyone thinks that the infotainment systems that car manufacturers create is junk. As CarPlay increases in use I think the demand for it will increase as well.
I'd much rather have all knobs and buttons for car interfaces. I can feel the fear every time I look down to adjust anything on a touch screen. I pretty much won't do it while moving. It's horrifying to know so many people are driving around with it now.
I have CarPlay on my Spark and all the audio controls for audio playback are mapped to the steering wheel. The rest is controlled by voice using Siri. E.g, "open podcasts", "call Jesse", "directions to work".
The interfaces car manufactures build are horrible. Once you try CarPlay or likely the Android equivalent you'll never go back.
I purchased a new car 6 months ago, and quickly realized one of my key buying points was (well, not CarPlay but) Android Auto. I very quickly stopped looking at any cars that didn't have it. This eliminated some entire companies.
Interesting data point: one of the Ford models I was considering _still_ has it listed as "Coming soon". Glad I skipped that one.
Having used it for the past 6 months, it's now a basic part of my car-buying checklist.
I have Carplay and it is a disappointment. It crashes and freezes up. Maps is better in the latest iOS but it is still horrible. I prefer Honda's Pandora to the one in Carplay.
Overall my best options for music are SiriusXM, USB flash drives, the Honda Pandora, and the Honda iPod interface. None of these involve Carplay. Also, Carplay requires a corded hookup. The Bluetooth in my car lets me make calls without hooking anything up.
I don't know if Honda's setup is atypically decent, but after buying the car in part because of Carplay, I now don't use Carplay.
That has not been my experience. I much prefer CarPlay to what Honda and others offer. I think car manufacturers are going to have to pick which set of clients to cater too. It seems to me that having both systems will be too expensive for them.
I'm old enough to remember that public hand-wringing always accompanies major updates to Apple product lines. The Macbook Air was WIDELY panned when it was first released. It went on to be the most popular laptop they sell, and one of the most popular in the U.S.
Apple has a ton of money and a willingness to percolate new ideas. We won't be able to really evaluate the new MBP--and the ideas it contains--for years.
>> The Macbook Air was WIDELY panned when it was first released.
The Air wasn't a replacement of the Pro. It was a new device, an ultra portable.
It didn't become popular until they added a second USB port and SD card reader, added a higher resolution screen, fixed the battery life issues, fixed the horribly slow performance, and reduced the price big-time.
I know in my case I wanted one instantly but my MBP wasn't stolen until several years later so I didn't buy an Air right at launch. Wasn't because of ports or anything.
Yeah, the first Air was pretty awful - so focussed on being so thin and so light that it sacrificed almost everything else. You know, like being useful.
The second Air was a genuinely good machine, and that's when it became really popular.
Yeah, exactly. In this case the first MacBook (with the single USB-C port) would be the first awful prototype. The new MacBook Pros would be the improved followup. But I don't think they'll be as popular as the Air, not yet.
The Macbook Pro has seen its share of pro hand-wringing, like
- When they dropped the matte screen option
- When they dropped the 17-inch screen size
- When they dropped the Express Card slot
- When they dropped the optical "super drive"
- When they dropped Ethernet and Firewire
- When they made the battery non-removable
- When they made the display Retina
Many of these complaints were driven by legitimate concerns at the time (for example first-gen Retina machines really did struggle sometimes). Ultimately Apple saw significant sales growth, even among pros, and I don't see many calls these days to reverse those decisions.[1]
[1] This thread will probably now be inundated with calls to reverse those decisions.
And all through this, they kept selling macbook pros that were competitive in term of specs. The first macbook pro retina could already be ordered with 16GB ram.
This time, they do not have a single laptop with competitive specs. This time, they do not have a single laptop that has enough horsepower to be good upgrade for a lot of professionals. The new graphic card is average at best and there's only 16GB ram.
There's actually only one decision from your list I'd love to reverse. I liked the 17 inch macbook pro and I'd love to have one again... I have a macbook for when I need portability, my macbook pro is my work machine and just needs to go from my desk to my client's office.
When is the last time a Macbook Pro had a graphics card that was better than average? I don't think it has ever been a GPU monster.
It's fine to criticize Apple for that (plenty have), but to me it seems weird to single out the newest model for something that has characterized the line for years.
I expect the 32GB option will appear with the next Intel architecture. They undoubtedly engineered the case for that point in time and will just suffer the complaints until they get there. The case is not something they can change from year to year; the logic board is.
In the meantime it will be interesting to see what happens when people actually try the new machines.
Yeah, with respect to your footnote, I grew up on Apple products. Sometime in college (2009) I switched to using Linux primarily. For my last dev job, I was given a MacBook Pro (previous generation). It lacked an optical drive, it lacked an ethernet, and the shiny screen meant that I could not easily work with it outside (something I love to do).
Each of these lacks did impact my life, in the way of significant, but manageable, annoyances. The lack of optical drive meant my partner and I couldn't watch DVDs on it. The lack of Ethernet meant that transferring any significant amount of data off of it was a pain in the butt. And I went through periods of eye strain as a result of the screen.
Each of these was a serious annoyance that bothered me. But I put up with it, and was even considering getting a new Macbook Pro as my next machine, because the rest of the experience was great. Now, I'm definitely not going to be getting a new Macbook Pro, because the most recent changes cross over the line from significant, but manageable, annoyances in to the realm of major hindrances.
This is way off topic, but as a linux user, did you ever dual boot linux distros on macbooks? Work gave me a macbook and after fruitlessly trying to learn a new OS (and hotkeys...) I just threw ubuntu as a dual boot on it... and it's a nightmare. Crashing, freezing, hanging, video glitches, stuck pageflips, etc. Would love to know your experience.
The Apple iCycle: A two-wheeled revolution in transportation. The battery will allow two miles of (downhill) travel, at which point you'll have to charge it over USB-C. (Battery is not swappable.) No pedals are included.
Everything about Apple these days points to the same elephant in the room: their top management are just a bunch of clueless salesmen without their leader.
Cook isn't a sales guy -- he's operations. Still an elephant in the room though; there's a natural tension between trying new things and streamlining your existing things.
> Yet writers, like most actors, are notoriously underpaid.
...according to writers.
Writers seem to me to be paid at a market clearing rate, with the protection of a union. It seems to me that if they were truly underpaid they might find a better use for their time.
What's notably absent from from Apple is the passion for the product. Sure Jony is passionate for design. BUT Steve would bring the passion and frame the product and exactly how it's innovative and will change things.
At these past keynotes for example product managers have given canned passionless presentations for Apple products. Like the Apple TV presentation from last week
What frustrates me the most is that Apple never admits a mistake.
I'm never going to buy an iPhone without a headphone jack, but reinstating the jack on a future model would be admitting they made a mistake with the iPhone 7.
Likewise, with the new MacBook Pros, they are not going to release an update in a year's time that doesn't sacrifice ports and performance and battery life for size and weight, because doing so would be admitting a mistake. Nor are they going to dramatically cut the prices, such that they are actually affordable for someone, because doing so would be admitting a mistake.
> [The Macbook Air] didn't become popular until they added a second USB port and SD card reader, added a higher resolution screen, fixed the battery life issues, fixed the horribly slow performance, and reduced the price big-time.
They did that while keeping it thin and light though, which is the entire reason for the Macbook Air to exist - or at least, it was, until the even thinner revised Macbook turned up. Which will, I'm pretty sure, gain a second USB C port just as soon as they figure out how to fit it in.
I can think of one instance. After Apple released the 3rd gen iPod Shuffle (gumstick) with no buttons they said at the release of the 4th gen iPod Shuffle event: "But users clearly like the buttons". So then the next gen had buttons just like the 2nd gen.
I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack, whether that be an Android or iPhone. They're not going backwards because they think they're right, not because they think they're wrong but don't want to admit it.
And the reason they aren't cutting prices is likely because they're more profitable with prices as they are, not because they're afraid of admitting a mistake.
I don't "happily" buy phones now and I doubt most people do. Most phones are this bizarre compromise between the political wills of some corporation (or designer) and the needs of the user.
I feel like every time I see somebody with a new phone they're excited about it and want to show it off. And those that don't have a new phone grumble about how they still have to wait another year before they can upgrade.
Oh don't get me wrong, they're always full of exciting gimmicks that are fun for a month or so. I guess some people get distracted by all that enough to get very excited but if you ask them what they actually use/care about (and they answer honestly) it's all "boring" things like battery life, email, IM etc.
As a convert who used to be an ardent Android supporter, I've learned a very important lesson after switching. It's not always about the numbers. In fact it's never about the numbers. You can't quantify sheer quality. You can't quantify how something makes you feel. I understand this can be easily retorted by "Well I get that feel from my Samsung Galaxy N, it's totally subjective", but I think that's just being dishonest. I've seen people mention that they're considering switching back to Android after the headphone jack thing, or switching to a PC laptop after the touchbar thing. For me simply touching the surface of ANY premium laptop currently on the market is enough to realize that Apple is light years ahead in terms of how they engineer their devices to feel. Simple things like opening a lid. Using the trackpad. The force touch. How the ringer switch clicks into place. All of it screams "quality". Not like 15% higher quality, but like light years higher quality. It's my experience anyway. It's like -- yes you can take the best mechanical Breitling and ask what does it do that the average Casio ProTrek does not? And there may be not a good answer for that in terms of numbers. But just take both in your hands, and try to objectively say -- which device you intuitively want to interact with more? Which one attracts you with some inexplicable magic? Which one your fingers are craving to touch and understand? Imagine having that feeling every day with a daily device. Imagine having that feeling as the norm. How could you opt in for something less, despite the numbers?
> It's not always about the numbers. In fact it's never about the numbers.
I've always found it interesting that the Android/iOS debate seems to go only one way. My handful of Android friends have tried convert with some new feature that does x and y over the years, yet I've never found myself trying to convince them to make the opposite switch. I think your quote sums that up pretty nicely.
I carry an iPhone issued by my employer and a personal Android phone. You're absolutely correct about the feel of the device itself, smoothness of the software, etc. It's a very pleasant device to use, and I do use it every day, sometimes in situations where I have the choice between the Apple and the LG.
But none of that matters. If I bought a personal iPhone, I'd miss a few things. I like installing software that isn't on the Google store (specifically, F-Droid, Amazon, and Humble Bundle, in my case). I like having a little Linux system on my phone, and being able to remote into it. I like using scp to get files on and off, torrenting on the phone, being able to expand the device's memory when my needs change, and plugging it in like a giant USB key if I'm somewhere that my laptop doesn't get wifi.
Tellingly, I just bought a new Android phone that took some pretty blatant design cues from Apple's hardware. I think the choice mirrors the choice of which device I use in different situations, in a way.
My first preference would be a desktop computer: powerful CPU+GPU, comfortable inputs, very nice outputs (multiple large monitors, a nice speaker system), and enough storage for everything I want, with room to spare. My next would be a laptop; it's not as nice, but it's certainly easier to carry into the living room. Past that, my phone isn't as capable, but it's easier to put in my pocket...so I'm stuck with whichever tools fits my requirements in my current situation.
This hits the nail on the head in terms of how I think about Apple. They've so consistently set a bar that others are not able to hit, that at some level there just isn't any competition at all in some areas. Some of these things are very very important. Like all of the incredible accessibility work that they do. This level of detail of caring goes unappreciated all the time but is felt every day for many many people.
The trackpads are what do it for me. I like using a trackpad for a mouse. It's not that their trackpads are the best, it's that every other trackpad in existence is unusably bad.
Yeah, I get you. It's why I'm sticking with my 2012 Macbook pro and honestly considering getting another Pro if it ever dies, despite all the downgrades they've made.
> I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack, whether that be an Android or iPhone.
Is there a site we can legally use to register that bet? I'd be interested in taking it.
I honestly don't think that the headphone jack will ever go away. Wireless audio is like wireless internet, in that it's better than nothing but worse than something with wires and a stable connexion.
I daresay you're correct that Apple think they're right, but … I think they're wrong. The question is, can they remain irrational longer than the rest of the market can be rational? I _think_, given Android's market success, that they ultimately can't: Apple have made too many mistakes in too short a timespan.
> Wireless audio is like wireless internet, in
> that it's better than nothing but worse than
> something with wires and a stable connexion.
From my perspective, wired internet has effectively gone away. I haven't plugged anything other than a wireless router into a physical ethernet connection in years.
You obviously don't work in any kind of office. Wired Ethernet is still the norm for good reason: having hundreds or thousands of PCs in one building fighting over WiFi spectrum would be incredibly stupid and inefficient and slow.
In a startup now. Worked at a 800 person tech company 4 years ago. All laptops, all wireless (at least on my team -- I'm sure there were people that were plugged in somewhere).
Worked at a much larger tech company 1 year ago. Had a desktop that was plugged in, so there's that. Guess I overstated (though I can't say I actually did plug it in myself). Also had a laptop that I worked on over wireless without problems. There were 5k-10k people in that office.
I was seriously considering switching to iPhone for my next phone after my S.O. had a terrible experience with Google customer support, but my car doesn't have Bluetooth. I don't plan on getting a new car for at least another 5 years, so if I want to listen to music in my car, iPhone is ruled out.
Why? My car doesn't have Bluetooth and my iPhone 7 works just fine, and charges while listening to music and everything. There are already headphone/charging splitters you can get on amazon made just for the 7 (though I'm still using the same setup as my 6).
You don't have to buy a new car to get a different radio. And if your car has a 3,5mm jacket (here we go! ;-), you could use the Chromecast Audio to cast to the car radio with your new iphone without that 3,5mm jacket.
You need a local wifi network for the CC, so you have to setup a wifi hotspot with your phone. Then you make the connection. The downside is that you cannot use car stereo buttons to skip to the next song. And you probably need double usb-charging for the CC and the phone. That's quite a lot of work to setup each and every drive, but for longer drives it might be a good option.
Pair this with your phone, and plug it into power. When your car turns on, it powers on, pairs with your phone, and spits audio out over 3.5mm to the car stereo.
Comes with a 3.5mm male -> 3.5mm male plug for this purpose.
Exactly correct! Long ago I wrote the LongBets software and am still involved in the Long Now, so I'm happy to facilitate registering a bet between people on this topic; just email me.
At this point we've been up for 14 years. If we're good enough for Warren Buffet's million-dollar bet [1], I'd say we can handle this bet too.
If you can find a counterparty and that's the only way to get the bet done, I'm glad to ask. But the theory of Long Bets is as a registry for accountable predictions. Accountability is tied to identity. So my guess is that they'd say yes for a well-known pseudonym with a body of work, like Lewis Carroll or Voltaire, but would say no for a throwaway name.
I have been using a good pair of bluetooth headphones for over a year and am perfectly happy with them, Audio quality is never an issue with a2dp. Likewise after getting a decent 802.11ac router that provides stable 5GHz Wifi way faster than what my 100Mbps internet connection can provide, I haven't used wired ethernet for ages, apart from wiring my NAS to the router.
10 years is a long time, very sure the Audio Jack will be gone by then or a rarity like Vinyl today.
"I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack, whether that be an Android or iPhone. They're not going backwards because they think they're right, not because they think they're wrong but don't want to admit it."
I believe that the iphone is by far the best executed mobile phone platform and the best hardware - and has been from day one.
However, I have never purchased or used an iphone because of my stubborn indignation over the lack of plain old USB for charging.
Contrary to all expectation and experience, everyone in the world got together on one little thing - establishing the global standard for USB charging - and the world was actually a very slightly better place. And apple shat all over that, and continues to do so, in order to make (on average) an extra $10 for every iphone sold.
Well, how can you "believe that the iphone is by far the best executed mobile phone platform and the best hardware", and subsequently declare that you hate them for not using a subpar standard when compared to their flawlessly engineered proprietary one?
Reversibility is the clearest benefit to the end user. Also it's a much more durable connector than most, the cable end is just a flat piece of metal as opposed to having pins and whatnot.
The stress of holding up the entire mass of the connected device (that can be as large as an iPad Pro!) is on the connector; and the stress of being held up by that connector is on the tiny part of the device that grips it. That'd be impossible with a USB connector (even USB-C), on both sides.
> if you have a brand new Macbook Pro and iPhone 7 you can't connect the two without an adapter
Without a cable, not without an adapter. Very big difference. I can use the same cable to charge my phone from my MacBook's power supply and from the MacBook itself. When I travel, I only take one power supply and two cables. Even if the iPhone and the MacBook used the same connector, I'd still take two cables so I could simultaneously charge them both, so I don't have to carry any extra hardware.
Yes, it would be nice if they could use the same cable, but at least I don't have to take any extra cable or dongle for charging my iPhone (I still need dongles for other things, though).
Except the cable in question is bought separately. Dongle, cable, adapter, whatever you want to call it: It's two products from the same company that has a reputation for an ecosystem that works extremely well with itself, and if I walk out with two boxes, one Macbook and one iPhone, they cannot be connected without a trip back. That's absurd.
Apple's logic: the Lightning jack only appears on accessories; while the USB-C jack only appears on "computers." There's no Lightning-to-Lightning cable, because it makes no sense to connect one "accessory" to another. All "accessories" come with a Lightning cable, which is USB on the host end for now (because most people don't have computers with USB-C yet!) but will likely be USB-C on the host end in the future (and then you'll need to buy a reverse adapter—female USB-C to male USB—to connect it to old devices. Those will probably be common enough across brands once the USB-C-only accessory market picks up.)
All that being said, it'a interesting to use this logic to deduce what Apple does or doesn't consider an "accessory." The iPhone, iPad, iPod? Accessories. The Apple TV? Computer! The port to plug it into a computer—for XCode provisioning et al—is USB-C! To connect to it right now, you need either a MacBook with its charger cable; or the new MBP, plus an extra C:C cable; or a USB-A male:male cable (rare!) plus Apple's "MacBook USB" (female-USB:male-USB-C) adapter. A male-A:male-C adapter would be great, but nobody has yet made one. The market is very nascent.)
When it comes to what side of the road we drive on, one side might be marginally better than the other - but the major benefits come from everyone agreeing to use the same side, regardless of what side that is.
That's because magsafe is magical, and they removed all the other ports. I have heard nobody complain about the charging situation on macbooks; GP's point is specifically about cell phones.
> That's because magsafe is magical, and they removed all the other ports.
In fairness, there are two huge new benefits to their new approach:
* You can charge on either the left or the right side. This reduces cable strain.
* If the cable breaks, you can swap it for another (cheap) USB-C cable, without having to buy another power brick.
There's an argument against Magsafe too: laptops are lighter now, so the magnets would have to be weaker to still work reliably, and thus also have more accidental disconnections (this is irritating). I'm not completely sold on this argument, but you can buy third-party USB-C Magsafe-like adaptors if it's really important to you.
For me, who's had several frayed chargers over the years due to cable strain, I really like their new approach.
(Note: there's a legitimate argument against Apple here too... I've heard that the reason Magsafe chargers are so susceptible to fraying is because they don't use PVC, and instead use a more 'environmentally-friendly' plastic, which is much weaker. They could still use more substantial strain relief regardless, but I'd guess they have aesthetic arguments against that, which is a silly reason for something so important. I'm not sure how much truth there is to this however.)
Also regarding Magsafe, I'm trying to remember the last time I kicked a cable that would have otherwise sent my laptop flying and… I can't.
I think the difference now is that laptop batteries last a hell of a lot longer than they used to. So many people have a fixed charging location (e.g., a desk) and spend a lot less time in some place with a cable precariously stretched across the room to reach a couch or w/e.
Just a personal theory, maybe not true for others.
"Also regarding Magsafe, I'm trying to remember the last time I kicked a cable that would have otherwise sent my laptop flying and… I can't."
I can't either. A this point it's more the convenience of being able to pick up and go without needing to unplug the machine, and one I'll miss when I eventually get a new machine. That said, it's human nature not to remember things that don't happen.
I don't, but even then you would need to: have kids/pets and work the majority of the day around them while not at a fixed desk. If you work from a fixed desk, the cable is much more likely to be in a location where it won't be pulled. If you charge all day, and only use it intermittently from a sofa, you don't need the cable.
That's a market that exists, sure. Is it a big market? I doubt it.
The number of dads and moms that leave work early to pick up their kids at 3pm who then have to catch up on work in the evening in the family room (on the couch, at the dinner table) with their kids riding the dog around the aforementioned couch or dinner table is huge.
"There's an argument against Magsafe too: laptops are lighter now, so the magnets would have to be weaker to still work reliably, and thus also have more accidental disconnections (this is irritating). I'm not completely sold on this argument, but you can buy third-party USB-C Magsafe-like adaptors if it's really important to you."
Yeah, that is a pretty weak argument :) The MagSafe works not by working (directly) against the strength of the magnet, but by the lever action of the connector eccentrically against the body. You can try this yourself by trying to pull the MagSafe away straight on compared to at a slight angle. Also, existing MagSafe is used with MBA, which are lighter than the new MBP. If that were really a problem, we'd already be seeing it.
Or maybe Apple will come out with one in the future. I would love to know more about how Apple arrived at the decision to not provide some sort of MagSafe equivalent feature.
People haven't complained about it because they grade Apple on a curve.
Apple doesn't use a shitty micro-USB plug? End of the world. Laptop manufacturers use a cornucopia of power plugs that change basically all the time? Crickets.
Apple's theory on removing MagSafe is that their laptops now provide enough working time, and charge fast enough, that it is rare that people will need to work while plugged in. This is clearly influenced by their experience with iPhone and iPad. It's also why they felt fine with silly-looking charge orientations for their mouse and pencil.
Is it wrong? We'll see. I think a lot of people work with their laptops plugged in as a matter of habit rather than necessity. That doesn't make it wrong, though.
> never purchased or used an iphone because of my stubborn indignation over the lack of plain old USB for charging.
I reached that conclusion over the "can't install apps without the manufacturer's permission" thing. I've always been surprised more developers didn't feel the same way.
Well, I can (or I could on a personal one, as opposed to the work-supplied one I carry). I like being able to install software from outside of an app store without modifying my firmware, worrying about updating my device, losing my warranty, opening up large security holes, etc.
Reaching outside of the walled garden isn't hard, but there are more things to consider compared to installing an apk on Android.
It's an ideological complaint, not a technical one.
Not being able to install apps is a nuisance; not being able to distribute apps for others to install is a deal-breaker, but the main thing is that I'm afraid of our world becoming a place where walled gardens are the typical model for consumer electronics.
The lightening connector is so much better than micro-USB that it's really hard to fault them for that. But I imagine even the iPhone will go USB-C in the next iteration.
I can't imagine that happening. They'd piss off all the customers that bought lightning accessories, lose control over the connector, and get what in return?
Not only that but the fact that people are buying lightning headphones for the current gen.
They are in a shitty place right now. They can't go USB-c without pissing off a good amount of their customers, but they can stick with lightening forever either (it's already starting to show its age WRT transfer speeds and other abilities)
I assume that's why they haven't already switched but they just releases Macbooks with nothing but USB-C connectors so I imagine the debate must be on internally at Apple.
Apple's long history of port and drive removal demonstrates that pissing off customers is not a prime concern. Lost licensing revenue might bother them though.
They seem happy to do this if they think there is value. I'm not sure what the value of USB-C is on the iPhone. The negatives are pretty obvious. The positive mostly seems to be that they can share cables with Android phones, which I cannot imagine is something execs at Apple care about.
Someone else raised an interesting point about docks. The lightning connection is designed to be strong enough to support a phone in a doc. I'm pretty sure this is not a design consideration for USB-C given how no one seems to care about Android docks.
Holding your phone upside down isn't an interesting test. That's just the holding power of the plug. More interesting and relevant is whether you can hold the phone at an angle, which is what a dock does. This puts a lot of stress on both the connector and the phone's jack. I would expect Micro-USB to fall apart from this abuse. I'd don't know about USB-C but don't have high hopes.
USB Type C seems to be much sturdier than microUSB. The metal sleeve has tighter tolerance and larger area. Can easily hold phone upside down. Should be able to support phone by itself. Problem is more taking more force to remove from dock or cable.
I don't understand this argument. If I'm using my laptop charger, my phone can't use it at the same time. And if I'm not using my laptop charger, it's probably stowed in my bag, and it's a lot simpler to pull out my phone's charger than it is to pull out my laptop charger. So I'm having trouble imagining a scenario where I'd actually ever plug my phone into my laptop charger.
How much faster are we talking? I haven't seen any numbers with this claim, nor any justification. There are fast charging systems on the market already with Micro-USB. Qualcomm says their quick-charge solution (used in the new Pixel phones) works with A, Micro, C and others.
The Pixel doesn't use Qualcomm's proprietary QuickCharge but standard USB Power Delivery. It can negotiate charging at 9V, 2A (18W). Legacy USB can charge 5V, 2.4A (12W), and regular Type C can charge at 3A (15W). Scaling with power, 15W is 25% faster than USB and 18W is 50% faster. The higher voltage is supposed to charge empty batteries faster.
The iPad Pro seems to support quick charging with the Lightning to USB-C cable and MacBook 29W USB PD adapter. And charges about twice as fast (2.5 hr vs 5 hr).
I don't understand the obsession with USB charging. This makes no sense at all to me. How would my life be materially better if my phone charged over USB? My last phone charged over USB and I can't say it felt better.
At this point, you might be tempted to claim that I would be able to use the same cables as other devices. To this, I'll point to the ongoing switch to USB-C and note that's you're buying new cables anyway.
Micro USB was a shitty plug. USB-C is better, but you can actually thank Apple for that, because it's a reaction to the Lightning plug.
Come visit my company gym, we have 20+ perfectly good treadmills that all have outdated iPhone chargers. The best part about micro USB was that it was absolutely ubiquitous. If my phone was dying at a friend's place or at my neighborhood coffee shop chances are I could charge my phone.
My least favorite thing about my 5x is that it's USB-C. I regret upgrading before USB-C became more commonplace.
Exactly. Could you imagine buying a home if the electrical outlet wasn't standardized? (In the US). Just ask the rest of the world how frustrating it is when every country has their own plug.
True, but the people living in them don't. People in the US move, and they move a lot.
Please use the downvote button for comments that are not relevant to the discussion, not as the "I disagree" button. We aren't reddit. My point is factual, 26 million Americans move every year. The challenges and hassels would be comparable if we had different plugs for all our appliances and electronics are analogous to the problems we have with different standards for charging ports on our cell phones, just a larger scale.
As analogies go, try to go for the spirit of the comparison, not the specifics.
Imagine what the market for appliances would look like if we had to accommodate for different outlets. Imagine if your kitchen aid stand mixer you bought for 600 dollars wasn't compatible with the apartment complex you wanted to move into. Or your iron, or your tv, or your charger for your laptop, or your hair dryer.
It's a bad analogy, though. For one, USB isn't very standardized either. There are many USB standards and we're in the midst of a transition from Micro USB to USB-C that will create the exact same compatibility problem for at least a few years as Micro-USB and Lightning. Before Micro-USB we had mini-USB. None of these are even remotely backwards compatible. Meanwhile we've been using the same basic electrical outlet for decades, and it's backwards compatible with the one we used for decades before that.
Also, my oven is actually an entirely different plug from my TV, and my dryer is different still. My lightbulbs connect through a totally different interface that doesn't even look like a plug! I actually seem to be doing okay with that.
You are picking the extremes to show why my analogy isn't good, which is unfair. You don't move your oven with you when you move, and washer/dryer is rare, but 220 volt outlets are standardized in the US as well. If you are moving your washer and dryer with you, and oven, the place you are moving to will have standardized 220v plugs. There is a physical limit on how much electricty certain plugs can handle. The bulk of the consumer and kitchen appliances you take with you use the same plug. Micro-usb is pretty much ubiquitous for the vast majority of non-Iphones. The point is because of Apple continuing to "move us forward" we will never have something to standardize around.
> You are picking the extremes to show why my analogy isn't good, which is unfair.
I'm trying to illustrate why your analogy isn't good. How many phones do you own that are 100 years old? How many of those charge with Micro-USB? How many of them even have connections not designed to be hard-wired?
It's unreasonable to point at electrical standards that took decades to reach and have stood for decades and say "look, standards are great" as if that logic is applicable to phones that will be replaced in a few years that are using standards that have existing for less than a decade (Micro-USB) and only a year (Type-C). In the past two decades there have been over a dozen changes to the USB spec and almost a dozen different physical connectors.
While consistency is great, standardizing on a bad standard too early isn't a good thing. Would USB-C exist if not for Lightning?
> but 220 volt outlets are standardized in the US as well.
Kind of. There are both 3-prong (NEMA-10) and 4-prong (NEMA-14) 220 plugs in wide use. There are actually a whole bunch of "standard" connections in lesser use.
> The point is because of Apple continuing to "move us forward" we will never have something to standardize around.
If the alternative is that we were stuck with Micro-USB for a hundred years, then I'm very happy that Apple "moved us forward".
> How many phones do you own that are 100 years old? How many of those charge with Micro-USB?
Not sure about 100 years old, but I can tell you my past 6 phones have all charged with Micro usb. The Blackberry Storm and the Blackberry Storm 2, a Moto Droid, LG G2, Nexus 4, and my current Samsung phone. I can still use the same charger, both wall and car, I got with my LG, with my current phone.
I feel like you're falling victim to a sort of temporal fallacy here. It just happens that Micro-USB is here right now, and you're looking back at the entire history of Micro-USB. In 2 or 3 years, no one will be selling phones charging with Micro-USB and all the cables you bought will be obsolete for your new phone.
In 3 years, USB-C will dominate the market, but will have only a 3-year history of backwards compatibility. Assuming Apple keeps the lightning connector for that time (and I expect they will; 30-pin had a longer lifespan than Micro-USB), they'll have a 7-year history and a far longer history of backwards compatibility than USB-C.
At some point in the future, Apple might even jump on the USB-C train for their phones. But I think it will be a while, and I don't think Apple is doing the wrong thing by their customers by waiting.
> n 2 or 3 years, no one will be selling phones charging with Micro-USB
> In 3 years, USB-C will dominate the market,
Which is another type of fallacy, but that's besides the point -- why will they change? Because everyone wanted a different charger or because some company decided to be "brave" and "courageous" and change them?
I don't know how this is an issue for Apple. If those treadmills were micro USB, they'd be trending rapidly toward obsolescence anyway.
I'll note that almost everyone who complains about lightning seems to not be an Apple user. Apple users seem fine with the horror of not sharing cables with Android devices. Apple users are also pretty happy that random hotels and whatnot have docks for their phones.
I don't know. I bought a lightning cable for my office a week ago for maybe $6. A quick search on Amazon shows an equivalent USB-C cable is actually more if I want to buy from a company with a name I recognize.
What are you talking about? Direct from Apple it's $20, on Amazon both will run you $5-$10. But that's not the point anyways -- I'm still using a micro-usb cable that I bought before Lightning was even released. I've had to spend $0 on proprietary nonsense.
Also, another point: I have a medical device and a Kindle which both charge via micro-USB, meaning I only had to bring one charger when I traveled. Huge benefit.
So don't buy direct from Apple. An AmazonBasics lightning cable is 6.50 right now. The cheapest brand I recognize for USB-C is Anker at 7. So no, USB-C is not meaningfully more expensive but neither are iPhone users getting ripped off unless they choose to.
Apple customers aren't getting "screwed" as you claimed.
If you're still using micro USB, I hate to break the news, but you will absolutely be buying some new cables in the future.
This chunk of the thread was addressing your comment about how "Apple makes a killing selling adapters. It's the users who get screwed." You being unhappy about Apple using a proprietary connection doesn't mean the cables or adapters are actually pricy.
I inherently have to carry around more cables/adapters/dongles, which cost money. That's why I'm unhappy. I'm paying more for less -- how is that not getting screwed?
Inherently? No. This depends entirely on what other devices you have. Carrying an iPad? Same connector. Carrying a laptop? Sure, that's a different connector, but that's currently the case for virtually every laptop no matter what kind of phone you're carrying.
In your case, you're carrying two other devices that use Micro-USB, which is great for you. Unfortunately you're likely to be facing a choice of replacing all of your devices or carrying two cables regardless the next time you upgrade your phone.
one charger for many devices beats one charger per device. period.
Apple obviously knows this, as they just moved their macbook to USB-C.
now i can charge my android phone with the same cable as my macbook, android is more compatible with the new macbook than the iphone is; thats an embarrassment
> android is more compatible with the new macbook than the iphone is
This is a baseless claim. They happen to use the same connector. iOS has a number of far more meaningful integration points with OS X, including iCloud and Messages.
In two years, you're going to be swapping out your micro-USB cables while I'm using a lightning cable I bought before USB-C was even released. What's your point?
They're making a bet that the sales lost from customers who are willing to switch to Android is less than the profit made from proprietary hardware, and they're probably right.
I think you're going to need a lot more evidence to essentially make the claim that bean-counters have taken over Apple.
Clearly many of these decisions have been popular. I'd even wager that this an unprofitable decision for them, in the short term. This might sound counter to my original assertion that they're sabotaging billions of iPhone revenues for millions of accessory revenues, but it isn't.
There's a third thing they're optimizing for, and I think they're willing to sacrifice both of those revenues for it. USB-C is the "right" thing forward. Bluetooth is the "right" thing forward. They're trying to push the industry towards these things (whether or not it's a good idea is something you can agree or disagree with), and they're willing to sacrifice earnings if they believe make that future come sooner.
Happened with floppy drives, happened with CD drives, and it's happening now with USB-C and the removal of the audio jack. For better or worse, the bean-counters have never been in charge at Apple, and that's been one of their greatest long-term strengths.
"If those treadmills were micro USB, they'd be trending rapidly toward obsolescence anyway."
Where "trending towards obsolescence" means "has realistically at least three years of non-negligible use for Micro USB", versus "was replaced by its manufacturer just over four years ago" (September 2012).
I'm yet to see gym equipment (a niche example) with Lightning, it's only 30 pin connectors.
Oh, FFS. 30-pin was around for what, 15-odd years? You're blaming them for literally nothing more than "the plug changing" because it just happened to be within the past few years.
If they'd gone with micro-USB, you would have the exact same complaint two or three years from now. That micro-USB devices still have 2 or 3 more years left of ubiquity is just a function of this exact moment in time, and you could have said that three years ago for 30-pin too.
Well, Micro-USB was announced in 2007. So by the time USB-C really takes over, it will have had maybe a 10-year run. So that's no better for compatibility life.
I completely agree with you. Micro-USB has already shown that it is not the best standard moving forward, it is already at it's end as manufacturers are replacing the port on devices with a USB-C port instead.
So let's call it. Micro-USB, 2007 -> 2016 (9 years). It had less of a run than the 30 pin dock connector!
---
I still have USB-B, USB-Mini and USB-Micro, and USB3-Micro-B devices... some were built even after USB-Micro was available, yet they still use USB Mini (which in most cases is a lot more sturdy than Micro). I have a ton of different cables for different devices because there was no real standardization until USB-C very very recently.
Why was the same vocal crowd not out when manufacturers switched from Mini to Micro and everyone had to buy all new cables?
With USB3 there is also a USB3-TypeB connector, which is not even backwards compatible with USB-TypeB...
I don't care about USB charging. What I do care about is not having to carry an awful dongle to listen to music. Been there, done that. And, I care about not having to charge my headphones before I listen to music. People might say I should just leave the dongle on my headphones. I lived through that already with an Android phone years ago, and it sucked.
That's a perfectly valid criticism. I think ditching the headphone jack, while having little effect on me personally, isn't a great move. At the same time, Apple has a long history of ditching compatibility early (floppy drive, cd drive, vga, etc) and with generally good effect long term, so I'm not sure that they actually made the wrong decision here.
Except that (as I recall) the floppy drive was completely obsolete when they did that, so almost no one cared. And the CD drive was not very painful either. The story is completely different for the headphone jack. It is not in the least obsolete, and it being missing is a huge pain for a lot of people.
It was a completely bonehead move on Apple's part IMHO. I know they had their reasons for doing it, but I still think it was a big mistake.
This doesn't change your overall argument, but Image Capture on the Mac will let you get your pictures without Photos or Itunes. I'm DONE with Photos and had to figure this out. It's not a great app, but it is simple.
If you just want a few photos, it's much much easier to Airdrop them, or email them, or add them to dropbox, or message them. There's no need to plug in for that.
Assuming you've got an internet connection available for both of your devices, sure. As an example: I've got a work-supplied iPhone that I use for photos of office activities, sometimes. All the file-sharing sites are blocked on the work network, and I don't have a Mac to deal use an Apple-specific transfer protocol with.
Thankfully, the comment you replied to is moot as well. I plug my phone into my machine, unlock the screen, and pull pictures off it all the time.
Still, when putting music on it, I'm left wishing that I had the option to use something like gtkpod, like I used to use with my iPod, back in the day.
You had me up until the "$10 for every phone sold" bit. Do you seriously believe Apple is happy to willingly sabotage sales of their tens-of-billions cash cow to make a few tens of millions on accessories?
They stuck with 30-pin because it was something their customer base had already bought into, and they didn't want to force a change. They went with Lightning because, let's be honest, micro-USB is shit — every micro-USB device I've owned has had the connector fail within two years. Lightning can handle 12W of power, micro-USB 9W. Lightning is reversible. Lightning has no moving parts on the connector, prone to breaking (or worse) grabbing onto your $700 device with a death grip and bring nigh-unremovable.
It would be great if they switched now to USB-C. They're clearly in the works on that, but didn't want to make a connector change on their phones after only two revs.
Quick Charge 2.0 via microUSB can throw a lot more power down the wire and charges nice and quickly. Plus that same wire can plug into a USB port on anything and charge.
I'm always surprised by folks talking about failing microUSB ports. The microUSB port on my old G2 (HTC Desire Z) still works fine as does the miniUSB port on my G1 (HTC Dream).
> I'm always surprised by folks talking about failing microUSB ports. The microUSB port on my old G2 (HTC Desire Z) still works fine as does the miniUSB port on my G1 (HTC Dream).
I'm always surprised by folks talking about their non-failing micro-USB ports, as if that somehow discounts other people's devices that have failed.
In my recollection a micro-USB has never failed. If it has failed it wasn't an issue because I've a heap of them lying around and could just grab another one.
I have had a number of lightning connectors fail on me. They're designed to fail. Pressure-held copper edge-connectors for devices went out with the Commodore 64's user port.
The fact that it is reversible is convenient but hardly worthy of consideration as a feature alongside "ubiquity" "cost" and "durability".
The old iPhone connector had it's limitations but it was established and really quite solid in my experience. Micro USB perhaps has limited features technically, and is ugly, but I don't believe the advantages that Apple presents for lightning outweigh the drawbacks.
As an interface it has a couple of niche use-cases that it fulfils but it is a step backwards in terms of connector design and in fact has a "worse" connector than the two other interfaces it purports to improve upon.
Props to Apple for padding out their profit margin and all that but they can absolutely go and shite if they think I'm going to swallow their "better connector" bullshit.
And they expect me to use it instead of a headphones jack now as well!
>willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack
Are you saying that because you think there will be a better alternative to the 3.5mm jack a decade from now? What does that have to do with what Apple is doing now?
That's not really a better alternative, now is it.
Now your headphones must come with all the electronics required for USB-C and their own seperate DACs. This means they're going to be slightly more expensive without any actual improvement over your 3.5mm headphones. Not to mention all of those threats of DRM and whatnot looming around. So with that in mind, why would I possibly want to make the move to USB-C?
Why are there threats of DRM with the DAC moved to the cable instead of the DAC sitting inside the phone (where arguably it has more control over the DAC than if it is sitting in-line on a cable)?
I figure it's being said (as someone who both agrees with the statement and is irritated at headphone jack removal) be cause the trend has tilted that way. Apple has merely joined other manufacturers in demonstrating that headphone jack users are actually a niche market.
I suppose I realized this when I saw folks at a former employer's manufacturing department all buying $100 BT headphones... because that meant they could set their phone down and not worry about yanking it off the lab bench.
They took the tradeoff. Mind you, a number of these things Did Not Matter to them -- they weren't pairing them with the computers, just their phones. I said manufacturing -- they had a bunch of old 'beater' desktops that were over five years old for running device programmers and the like.
It would likely have taken me a full workday to get them up to speed on any security/privacy issues.
As for DRM, not only do I think they wouldn't care so long as their music played, but I'm with everyone who sees no difference between a remote DAC and a local one. (Heck, these folks in manufacturing could easily have disassembled the headphones and put in an analog output at the appropriate point, they had the relevant rework skills -- and that would not trip any phone-internal tamper sensors.)
I have almost $1000 invested in over-the-ear Sennheisers and custom fitted in-ear Shures.
I don't think I'm going back to the audiologist to spend more hundreds of dollars a second pair that only works with iPhones and not my Mac or any pro audio equipment. Or depending on any battery device (like wireless headphones) that can't be plugged in while operating. Or having a device in my pocket that I can't plug in to a real PA system to test. Or paying what I currently pay for headphones that are iOS XOR Android.
Apple may be right for the millions who only ever use the included headphones, but in a world with compelling iOS alternatives that still have headphone jacks, I'm not throwing away the rest of my equipment or carrying adapters everywhere.
Just plug the adapter into the end of your headphone jack and leave it there. It's a female adapter, so it can just hang off of your existing 3.5mm jack. You make it sound far more annoying than it actually is.
And get one adapter for each set of headphones. And if you then use those headphones with nay other device and unplug the adapter just hope you don't set it somewhere and forget it.
That's completely fair. However that's a corner case for most people. I think the general use case is that people have routines in their day to day and fit these devices into their predictable routines.
Adapters suck for unpredictable situations but those aren't common enough and Apple knows this.
I consider the unpredictable case the several to many years it takes to upgrade all the devices between my wife and me. It probably took 3 years to get rid of all the 30 pin devices in our house. I don't see why it will be any better switching away from 1/8".
Using a pair of headphones with multiple devices? At least between phone and laptop? That's not a corner case, even though Apple seems to think so by skipping out on a Lightning port on the Macs after putting out lightning headphones.
Ugh, I lose a 1/8" to 1/4" adapter for my headphones at least once a month. I've bought extra and try to keep one in any device I have with a 1/4" port, and yet still they manage to come out and get lost. It's easy and cheap to order a dozen of those. It's not going to be cheap to order a dozen lightning->analog adapters.
Why do you feed your expensive headphones with the sub-par audio from an iPhone A/D converter (probably listening to lossy compressed MP3 in the first place)?
As long as you do that, the pain of having a (free) dongle attached to it kind of fades in comparison.
> Now I actually do believe the OP will "happily" buy a phone without a headphone port.
Honestly, the OP might resign himself to it, but I'll doubt he'll be happy about it. It's not like headphones are currently connected with obsolete digital interfaces (e.g. RS232). Headphones are, by their very nature, analog, and making their connection digital just makes integration harder.
The headphone industry will look a lot different in ten years.
The wireless standard used by headphones (possibly not BT) will have enough bandwidth to no longer be the bottleneck in wireless audio quality. And more importantly they'll never need to be "charged".
No no, don't change the goalposts. The thing that I'm calling the parent on, is the prediction that I will like having no headphone ports. I have no idea what's going to happen with US smartphones sales in 2026, so I won't make a bet on that. I do know that I WILL NOT like not having a headphone port.
Ah, but that's not what their bet was... the bet was that you will happily buy a smartphone without said headphone port -- which I expect will happen because you won't be able to buy one any other way now that it's been demonstrated that it can be eliminated. You might not be happy about that aspect, but still be happy with your new phone as a whole, as you adapt to the lack of any option on that front.
"I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack, whether that be an Android or iPhone"
Sure, absolutely when Rezence” or “PMA,” or whatever the wireless charging standard becomes is ubiquitous. However we don't have that today, no will we have it in 18-24 months, the general duration of a customer's contractual obligation to a carrier and phone model.
And for people that need to type and talk at the same time, sometimes for hours at stretch - for maintenance window or outages or even just long conference calls, not being able to accessboth a headphone jack and a power simultaneously on their phones is a real deal breaker.
I don't think the OP is necessarily pooh-poohing change but rather being pragmatic and practical for the immediate term.
Not when the existing jack is 1) a proprietary standard that does not work with any other device 2) A port that doesn't allow one to charge and use audio at the same time.
Something like a USB-C for everything could be doable - but as far as I know, USB-C ports are thicker than 3.5mm jacks.
> I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack,
I bet within a decade we will all happily buy autonomous cars without a steering wheel. This is because in a decade, battery life, software, connectivity and manufacturing experience will provide a large benefit and will be normalized.
I find it extremely difficult to believe that this will provide a 10x better experience. Here is what Apple is doing:
* The Computer is the Hub for all devices
* the cloud is the Hub
* the phone is the Hub
That's fine. Except that if my phone is using bluetooth to be constantly connected to my headphons & iwatch, as well as occasionally my computer; AND it can power my headphones it really dosn't matter if you give me 2x the previous phones battery I am running 4x the amount of devices off it. Apple needed to deliver a phone that lasts >3 days and headphones that aren't a chopped up earbud that can max out at 2 hours.
the iphone 7s will probably be awesome, this is the bridge model as Walt Mossberg put it, and it doesn't seem realistic to even consider buying it.
By eliminating the headphone jack didn't they just create another revenue source? My understanding is that they get paid a per unit licensing fee by anyone who creates/sells an adapter. I was under the impression this was the reason they removed the jack.
I have been buying bluetooth earbuds for years. Cables seem so cumbersome in comparison. If only they could sort out latency on video I would be 100℅ sold.
I can believe that the 3.5 jack will be removed, but only to be replaced with more convenient open and not proprietary standard--analog standard. I can live with USB-C, that, btw, already has analog audio implemented, when it de facto becomes industry standard for audio output. Just hope they solve simultaneous charging with headphones plugged. Two USB-Cs may be.
But definitely it is not going to be proprietary lightning digital audio port that requires external DAC and licensing.
Oh they do admit mistakes.. They just don't say it:
Steve Jobs on why the iPod color doesn't have video said something to the effect of "nobody want to watch video on a tiny screen". a generation or 2 later the iPod (classic style) can play video.
You can totally make do with html/javascript apps on the iPhone. Not long after there is an SDK/app store.
cut and paste on iOS: It took a couple years but here is our version that is world beating.
That round mouse they included with the original iMac didn't last long.
I think a lot of projects were killed (Newton, Pipin, iPod, the motorola phone that used iTunes.) that just didn't work out.
Not to mention 'ping' (social media for iTunes) and the cloud based infrastructure.
I think the problem is Steve really liked the mac, and you could see that during his demos he was a power user and understood the product better.
You're forgetting about the phablet market. Apple insisted that the puny iphones were the prefect size for all people. I bailed for a Note2 and never looked back.
I wish people made more puny phones that work with my small hands. I'm really happy with iPhone SE, but I don't have high hopes that there will be a refresh.
Newton is an interesting case. Apple made two big mistakes... They didn't realize how hard handwriting recognition was and they didn't realize how important syncing with a computer was.
I think there's an alternate universe out there where Apple kept the Newton and it evolved into the iPhone.
"Likewise, with the new MacBook Pros, they are not going to release an update in a year's time that doesn't sacrifice ports and performance and battery life for size and weight, because doing so would be admitting a mistake."
I know this has been litigated to death in the original thread, but I think the 4 USB-C ports implicitly admits the MacBook with only a single USB-C port was a mistake. I think obsessing about having specific legacy ports is short sighted, and pushing forward with new connection technologies fits well with Apple's history of innovation. Having ports capable of being every thing from power connector to video display to high speed disk connector to mouse or keyboard port offers great flexibility and will seem like an obvious choice very soon.
I think the claimed battery life still fairs well against similarly spec'd PCs?
Size and weight are super important characteristics for many users. Not sure sacrificing these attributes would appeal to most laptop consumers.
"Nor are they going to dramatically cut the prices, such that they are actually affordable for someone, because doing so would be admitting a mistake."
It's only a mistake if their overall profits would be higher by cutting prices.
Now, the sacrifice I don't understand at all is capping RAM at 16GB. Makes the MacBook Pro seem like a very low end machine compared to the competition, and will almost certainly shorten its useful lifespan, especially for professional user.
> Now, the sacrifice I don't understand at all is capping RAM at 16GB.
Totally agreed. The laptop I'm writing this on has 8GB and Firefox happily gobbles most of it. The server I recently built has 16GB which already feels very constrained. My next laptop is going to have 32GB for sure. If Apple don't have a 32GB Macbook Pro my next laptop ain't going to be from Apple.
SSD in Macbook Pro is crazy fast. So fast that finally, after many years, we can think about "replacing" RAM with it.
LPDDR3 RAM speed = 17 GB/sec, SSD read - 3 GB/sec. As much as it sounds crazy, i believe, SSD will eventually replace big and inefficient RAM's (which consume 6 W of power for each 16 GB slot)
> Nor are they going to dramatically cut the prices, such that they are actually affordable for someone
For the average developer the MBP amortizes out to somewhere around one day of salary per year, out of the ~251 annual work days, even less if you keep it more than four years. Is there any other industry with lower overhead costs?
That would be fine if the components actually were expensive. Most people would avoid lining the pockets of the executives with their hard earned money if they had a choice.
The prices of the MBP aren't even high historically adjusted for inflation. The always "raise" prices on model redesign, and taper them down on refresh. This reddit post has a pretty illustrative chart, https://m.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/59uyqw/all_13_and_15_m...
Everyone is acting like Apple is extorting people or being unconscionable because they can't have 32 gigs of ram (no one else can at any small laptop size, Intel's chipset is the limitation), or the prices are extreme when they're really just right in line with inflation...
> What frustrates me the most is that Apple never admits a mistake
In corporate politics that would be a suicide. Only Jobs was powerful enough to make mistakes.
Anyway it is shocking what Apple does now. During Jobs Apple removed product features only used by laggards. Now Apple removes the features used even by pragmatists and early adopters[1]. Do you known how many people moved exclusively to wireless headphones and TH3?
Another surprising thing is ignoring the professionals. They are in minority and it is hard to see them on sales charts. But they are opinion leaders.
Many people overpay for Apple products because they want to look as real professionals. Majority don't care which laptop is the thinnest, they use products used by opinion leadres. With current trend, in 5 years Apple brand might be associated with rich bozos buying gold phones. Just look at the Mercedes S vs Tesla Models S sales in last 2 years.
> In corporate politics that would be a suicide. Only Jobs was powerful enough to make mistakes.
To wit: an insignificant change (dropping skeuomorphic UI) was coincident with Scott Forstall being canned.
> Many people overpay for Apple products because they want to look as real professionals. Majority don't care which laptop is the thinnest, they use products used by opinion leadres.
I used to think this way, until I went through 3 PC laptops in 2 years. Macs are worth every penny of the premium Apple commands, and more.
That said, to keep me as a customer they are going to have to do a better job convincing me they aren't planning to discontinue the Mac lineup. And they'll have to offer a more convincing spec bump over my 2014 15" rMBP, which remains borderline-overkill for my needs.
The Thinkpad Helix 2 I'm currently sat at cost me 600 quid earlier this year (and is the 8Gb RAM model so not completely un-comparable to the lower end of the new macbooks)
The Latitudes I get are hunks of magnesium and aluminum, not plastic.
I don't give a shit about trackpads; I use the Trackpoints (which Macs don't have) since they're much easier and faster to use, and a separate mouse most of the time. No touchpad compares to a real mouse, just like a touchscreen keyboard will never compare to a real keyboard.
They're available with high-resolution screens, and even better, they're matte (Macs are not, they're glossy), so I can see them in different lighting situations.
Finally, I get mine at dirt-cheap prices by buying them used, because corporations buy these things in bulk and only keep them for a couple of years before liquidating them. So there's a very healthy used market with machines in excellent, near-new shape because they don't hold their resale value the way Macs do with their cultist followers (and the fact that most people have zero awareness of enterprise laptops). And since computers aren't actually improving technologically any more, a 3-year-old laptop in excellent condition is just as productive and useful as a brand-new one, but at a fraction of the cost.
Had a latitude 7440 before my Mac. The difference is still significant, sometimes I have to boot it back up and this makes me sad. The touchpad alone is worth upgrading for.
The problem with this is that dgregd claimed that MBP owners overpaid for their laptop. So in order to contest that claim it's natural to compare a MBP against a cheaper PC laptop to demonstrate the differences. Once you're comparing a $2k PC laptop against a $2k MBP, it's a lot harder to maintain the narrative that the MBP user overpaid.
While this sounds nice, I don't think it's correct. If people really bought products because they wanted to use the same thing professionals use, then everyone would be running around with Thinkpads and Latitudes, not Macbooks. And they would have turned their noses up at iPhones and bought Blackberries instead. Apple stuff is just fashion accessories (though for the iPhone, I will grant that it was a quantum leap over the state of the art at the time, but not any more, and this doesn't apply to the situation with notebook computers). They use their marketing to convince rubes that their stuff is the best made, but it's not actual professional gear.
As for Mercedes S vs. Tesla Model S, that seems like an apples-and-oranges comparison there. The Mercedes isn't electric. EVs are fundamentally different vehicles from gas-powered cars, and someone who really wants an EV is not going to even bother looking at gas-powered cars in the same price range. That would be like looking at a really nice microwave oven and then buying a really nice set of stainless-steel cookware instead; sure, they can both be used for cooking, but they're really different approaches to the problem and not normally used for the same thing.
Interesting how I get down-modded to oblivion any time I make a post that challenges the Apple Kool-Aid. Maybe instead of "Hacker News", this place should be renamed "Hipster News" if it's just a congregation place for Apple cultists.
> Many people overpay for Apple products because they want to look as real professionals.
Just stop right there, OK?
Look back through my comments and you can see I've made this point a few times, but I'll make it again just for you. Mac laptops are sturdy, well made devices. My workstation provided by work is a lenovo W series laptop. I can push the bottom screen bezel and it flexes a full half inch. The plastic above the keyboard flexes also. The trackpad is meh (and TINY!). For the price (which at the time of purchase was not really inexpensive), it is cheap plastic crap.
My rMBP is solid. Feels wonderful to type on. The screen hinge stays put and doesn't shimmy. The keyboard feel solid with no flex. It's worth the price, especially compared to a lot of the junk that's out there today.
> but I'll make it again just for you. Mac laptops are sturdy, well made devices
You misunderstood me. I agree that Apple products have the best build quality. But Apple was always something more than a well build luxury product. MacBook Pro was a tool used by professionals to create good things. Without professionals, it is just another luxury product. And ordinary luxury product won't have that high sales.
I'm typing this on a Lenovo X200 and I don't know what you're on about. This is easily the best laptop I've ever used in terms of durability and sturdiness. Yeah, I can press on that lower bezel and get that flex, but who the hell does that? When I shut the laptop, that bezel is safely tucked away in a very solid case. The thinkpads know where it matters.
The macbook pro I used to use had a big dent in the front after only a year of use, and several scratches and dings. This X200 is over 10 years old and has _no_ signs of wear, and all of the hardware supports Linux _perfectly_ OOTB. It has a far better keyboard, too, plus a fingerprint reader and the famous little thinkpad light. I also used a Thinkpad T420 for a while, which has many of the same benefits and packs more of a punch.
Subconciously I take a professional with a good thinkpad more seriously than one with a Macbook.
> Yeah, I can press on that lower bezel and get that flex, but who the hell does that?
Someone who values quality? It's not like I jab it all the time, but knowing it does it irks me. So glad I wasn't the one who paid for this junk.
> The macbook pro I used to use had a big dent in the front after only a year of use, and several scratches and dings. This X200 is over 10 years old and has _no_ signs of wear,...
So, you've matured and take better care of your things. Good!
> Subconciously I take a professional with a good thinkpad more seriously than one with a Macbook.
A great example of the reality distortion field. You like Macs and they don't flex, that's great. But they are simply not more durable than a Thinkpad. You're rMBP is unlikely to survive even a single drop, the glossy glass screen would crack. The Magsafe cable has to be thin and light and is prone to failure. The keyboard on the Thinkpad has more travel and is better to type on.
Apple make many trade-offs in their designs.
My lenovo would fare far worse in a drop. It's a flimsy, plastic, overweight piece of junk.
Edit:
I disagree about the keyboards, kinda. I have here a late 2014 rMBP, a Lenovo W530 and T510. I prefer the mac keyboard. I hate the w530 keyboard, but the t510 keyboard is really nice (it's before lenovo did the redesign).
The MacBook Pro design makes trade-offs that many don't want. Personally, I don't like the thinness obsession, the aluminium, the glossy screen, the keyboard, the glued battery, the port choices. What really scares me, with all the evangelism, is that one day I won't be able to go buy my "oversized plastic junk", because all the PC vendors will be making MacBooks.
Apple doesn't need your evangelism, they are the richest corporation in the world. We need a healthy industry with products that make different trade-offs. So please let's recognise the trade-offs and not argue which is better.
I don't disagree that there are trade-offs. My point was, I still feel it's a solid device and weighing the pros/cons, I still bought a rMBP. My issue was the idea that I bought it simply because I want to "appear" as professional. I _am_ a professional (developer) and still chose it because the pros (at the time) outweighed the cons (for me).
This whole meme that people who buy Apple are sheep is getting old.
Which begs the question, why aren't there more manufacturers trying to compete in that space? Apple is successful because they have no competition at the top of the market.
That's not really true. E.g the first Macbook Air had a very small battery and only a single USB port. The third gen released 18 months later had two USB ports, a much larger battery, and an SD card slot.
I'm trying to recall the Antennagate scenario with the iPhone 4, which forced Apple to hand out bumper cases for free. Did they officially claim responsibility for that design flaw?
The reactions here to recent Apple products remind me of slashdot's infamous - "no wireless, less space than a nomad".
Like the original USB on the iMac (which also caused uproar), USB-C is significantly better than the previous mess of competing standards. The iPhone should have been usb-c too but that's a whole other debate.
Like the original MacBook Air (which was panned for performance), these new computers will be used by many for serious work, they are not fatally flawed or underpowered.
Like serial ports, analogue audio ports have had their day, USB has more than enough bandwidth.
You might disagree with these choices and compromises, but it's simply hubris to imagine HN denizens are in sync with the majority, or even ahead of it, they very rarely are.
They switched to x86 after years of publicly touting the benefits of PPC (all the while working on the switch project in secret). I think you are attributing a corporation too much human-like emotions.
Yeah because Google or GM or Sony or Audi all come out regularly and admit their mistakes. Honestly do you really expect any company to do that?
Also as mentioned in the article - Apple charges a premium to, some would say, wisely cash-in on early adopters; over the life of the product its price drops. If you want an affordable Apple product - just like any other company - don't buy the very latest, newest model of any of their stuff.
"Never" is a bit of an overstatement. There was an apology for Apple Maps. I think better way to put it is that Apple doesn't engage in a genuine way with customers. It communicates with favored individuals in the press or chosen customers via email, with the expectation that the email from Tim Cook or Phil Schiller will serve to get the word out.
Compare the number of Google employees making public statements through blogs with the number of Apple employees who do so.
There's very little acknowledgement of public input, as if anything the public had to say about Apple products doesn't matter because Apple knows better.
> What frustrates me the most is that Apple never admits a mistake.
They have backtracked from decisions made, several times, and admitted to mistakes too. Apple Maps is a good example. MobileMe, the return of buttons to the iPod shuffle, price cut on iPhone... same.
The problem is that what you or I think is a mistake, it might not be one in the eyes of Apple.
A lot of the frustration I see these days can be summed up as "Apple no longer is making a product that I like, therefore it is making products that nobody likes".
Well, maybe. Time will tell. But I think they have a very clear vision about how they want their computers to look and feel (same for iPhones) and they are heading there full-speed. For some customers it will be a deal breaker, for others it might be what they need to jump ship and buy a Mac or upgrade from a Macbook Air to a more profitable Macbook Pro.
What frustrates me the most is that Apple no longer is making a product that I like but no one else is. Every single laptop model in the market lacks at least one feature that's essential to me.
When you hear about post-PC and how the computer market is changing, THIS is exactly what it means. Traditional computers and laptops are going to become more expensive, sell in less quantities and be very, very focused on some specific needs.
For companies like Apple, Microsoft, Dell, etc... this will translate into much simpler product lines that will update less frequently.
They did once. One of the earlier iPhones boasted about how its smaller screen size was "the perfect screen size" due to the size of your fingers and how you needed to be able to reach both top corners. Obviously they made bigger screens since then and ignored that they ever said those things.
"What frustrates me the most is that Apple never admits a mistake."
In a country as lawsuit happy as the USA, would any decent legal departement allow a company to admit a mistake?
And if these machines do not sell, I would expect they will cut prices or price the next version (which, then, may come out fairly soon) lower (it wouldn't surprise me if their roadmap already includes a version with a Skylake CPU and DDR4 memory at the current price point, while keeping the existing models around at lower prices)
I don't understand how those things are mistakes. You can easily make up for the missing jacks and ports with dongles. But you could easily argue that it's a mistake to keep those jacks and ports to support a shrinking base of users that still require those jacks an ports. I haven't used the headphone jack on my phone in a very long time, it's a backup if anything, but mostly just a place that collects lint.
I'm not sure if it's really Apple's fault at this point. Over the summer, two people that I know went out and bought MacBook Airs -- even though its specs are severely outdated for its price. As long as people continue to buy their uninnovative products, Apple will continue to never admit a mistake.
I'm not sure if he is serious with his idea or not. I can't see how it'd work.
Also, the MacBook Pro just launched. We can't know if it'll be a success or not, until 4-6 months later. I'm personally going to buy one (the higher end).
I was eagerly waiting for the release of a new MacBook Pro, but when I saw the Apple keynote, my first/only reaction was to buy a new mid-2015 model to upgrade my mid-2009 one. Great upgrade, btw. I want to see what are apple's next moves, I just secured more 4-5 years on a great and stable laptop.
Just speculating: maybe Tim Cook wants to force a decline in sales in order to justify the killing of the low-performant MacBook line? Hackintoshes are fairly common nowadays and external keyboard and trackpad 2 can keep the great interaction provided by OSX.
>> I was eagerly waiting for the release of a new MacBook Pro, but when I saw the Apple keynote, my first/only reaction was to buy a new mid-2015 model to upgrade my mid-2009 one.
As much as we like to hate on the new MBP (myself included) -- in the grander scheme of things, the new MBP is a more than competent Mac laptop for a lot of people.
The thing with people who spend a lot of time with computers is that we're an extremely passionate bunch. And because we're so passionate, we pay attention to the small details that matter most to us, while assuming those details have equal importance to everyone else, when that may not be the case.
I tend to think a lot of people, including those who aren't terribly happy about the changes, will begrudgingly accept these changes over time. If you're a fan of the Mac operating system, you don't really have many other places to go, even if those places are functionally equivalent.
For a lot of people who hate the changes in the new MBP, staying on macOS is still better than having to switch to Windows.
542 comments
[ 4.8 ms ] story [ 245 ms ] threadApple has become too reliant on iPhone and unsure how to look beyond it.
Either they would have to shake the leadership team up like Microsoft or split the company up.
Does Apple not make enough money, do they need to grow?
They could of course just enjoy sales from the iphone and live off past innovation, but that would mean that they could cut costs by at least 50% and fire most of the workforce. Don't know if that's what they want.
If Apple can take themselves private again, there will be less pressure on them to keep growing.
What I'm getting at is I think everybody is overly concerned that Apple isn't releasing any "new" devices. They don't really have to. Looking at market share, they completely dominate on the products they already have. If anything, they can sit back, wait for the "next big thing" and do what Apple typically does best: Copy it, and make it so much better.
And the Mac has always been their core product, especially since Apple's comeback with the imac. It's no longer their main source of income, but it's a very strong brand that had consistently been getting more and more market share over time. It probably didn't have the huge margin and volume of the iphone, but it'd be a critical error if they were to discontinue it. They should invest more in it, I think; rebrand the new Macbook Pro to just Macbook, come out with a new line of Pros that are bigger again (with pro hardware and features, for the discerning user), update the Mac Pro, etc.
In other industries like cars, the manufacturers don't necessarily create hugely different models every year, but only small improvements on last year's model, and they seem to do okay.
Personally I think the touch-bar thing on the Mac is unremarkable, even a gimmick. Why would anyone want the furniture moving around on their keyboard? I could be wrong, I suppose if it's highly customizable then it will be handy for programmable shortcuts.
Apple cannot rest on their laurels because if they stop innovating Android manufactures will implement all of their features and sell the phones for cheaper than an iPhone. The Google Pixel is a killer phone and could easily steal some iPhone market share if a new iPhone does not keep iterating with new features.
If Apple keeps removing two features for every new one that they add, that's going to upset some customers.
> Aren't they allowed to sit on the Apple II? Why must they come up with amazing new stuff when they've already got a mountain of cash and loyal fans who love the point release updates?
Last time Apple built the entire company around a single product (Apple II) they almost went bankrupt.
And the iPhone isn't a single product, but has all sorts of dependencies via the app store and iTunes. Not to mention the built-in features like the camera, maps, AI, and whatever else it can do natively. In fact, modern smartphones can do so much, consumers probably find it hard to keep up with it all.
And finally, if I were Apple, I'd release an advertisement along the lines of "fire-proof gloves not required" or something clever with a subtle dig at the Samsung disaster which undoubtedly strengthened iPhone sales.
If you're not growing, you're stagnating or declining. If Apple don't continue to innovate, then someone else will pick up the baton. Android continues to get better and better as a mobile OS, and the Android ecosystem continues to get better too. Linux and Windows both have some improvements over macOS, although macOS is better than them in other ways; if Apple continues to under-invest here then there won't be much reason to run its software, meaning there won't be much reason to buy its hardware. We've already seen that Apple's hardware itself is not as good as it could be, which means that offerings from other companies are comparatively more competitive.
> In other industries like cars, the manufacturers don't necessarily create hugely different models every year, but only small improvements on last year's model, and they seem to do okay.
I don't know if I'd go that far. On the one hand, cars haven't radically changed in decades (they still have four tyres, a steering wheel, windows, seats; most use internal-combustion engines), but OTOH they have changed: roll cages, crush zones, airbags, infotainment systems, heated & cooled seats, more intelligence, electric engines.
And indeed it's the models which do offer the most innovation which get the most attention. I don't know if they're the most profitable though.
I'm sure Apple will be fine. Their first attempt at the iPad Pro wasn't received that well, but they'll fix that and deliver something good next year. I'm actually on the lookout for a tablet I can draw on, but I'm hesitant to buy a Surface Pro because I don't trust Windows 10. I don't want my OS to be a service with mandatory updates and whatever other control they take away, but then again that's where Apple are headed too. I prefer the OS to be in the background, out of sight, not pushing itself to the foreground, desperate for attention and relevance.
Because I think (IMHO) the smartphone industry is about to hit the same problem that Microsoft hit with Office. How do you impress your customer base year after year? Do you hit a point were adding more features to your product is making it more complicated and worse off because of it? Has your competition caught up just enough that in the eyes of the consumer, the difference between best and second best in your product category is small - and price becomes the most important item on the feature list?
Product category churn is something all companies need to keep their finger on. Eventually, everything becomes a commodity and price is the only thing you can improve on. And profit margins become the casualty.
And yes, I do think the auto industry is about to hit the foothills of this curve.
Then the market shifted and Microsoft had to scramble, change the leadership team, their structure, their goals, etc. Took a while.
Not saying Apple has to come up with amazing stuff all the time. Just need to look for opportunities outside of iPhone. Or even with the smartphone segment.
They are doing fine right now. But what about in 5 years?
Buying TWC is a monumentally stupid idea for Apple that I won't even go into.
Apple is obviously working on things (including self driving car systems), it just doesn't announce them and it doesn't hesitate to cancel them if it doesn't like the results. Those are, IMHO, good qualities about Apple.
The idea that Apple has to get into a new category is kind of ridiculous. It doesn't have to do anything. It has solid profits and tons of money on hand. They can coast. The stock value will go down or stall for a bit if they do, but so what? When they release another great product, if it is successful, the stock price will reflect it at that time.
One of the things that keep senior engineers at a company like Apple is vast amount of money they can make from their stock options. If the share price tanks then the senior engineers don't make anywhere close to the money they can make elsewhere, so they leave. That makes it harder to develop a successful product.
I'm not suggesting Apple is a single failure away from a death spiral, but I am saying they can't rest on their laurels simply because they're Apple.
No, but they can because they have something like $200 billion cash on hand. Which means if they really care about their stock price they can do a buy back if they want. Or if they are worried about employee compensation due to lagging stock price they can give bonuses, etc.
That's technically true, but getting that money to a place where they can use it to buy back stock or to pay bonuses to their engineering staff would be incredibly expensive. There's a reason why they've not repatriated it yet.
I can imagine that you wouldn't actively take risks with money that's expensive to use, but if they were already in a death spiral, wouldn't they use it to avoid going down the drain entirely?
It seems absurd to me to sit on $200 billion if you can't use at least a good fraction of it - but I don't even begin to understand the legal and accounting issues with handling that sort of money.
"I would love to seem them cannibalize their lack luster, overpriced iCloud by introducing a “personal cloud” home server product (that would also be the hub for HomeKit, and all that other stuff). Apple getting back to their roots as a high-margin value added hardware company. NAS systems are terrible, especially when trying to integrate them into a macOS and iOS network."
You're thinking the Time Capsule, which is basically an Airport base station with a hard drive that can be used for Time Machine backups. I don't know what other functions it has.
1. Just works.
2. Primary mode of operation as a cache for iCloud and all other Apple things. Acting as a router probably and as was said a HomeKit hub.
3. Private cloud as an option.
The Google Pixel phone is better suited for the new MBP than the iPhone.
I think there are serious leadership problems at Apple and these sorts of incompatibilities among their own products is a symptom.
I'm stuck on my late 2011 MBP because every model after it is failing at the 'professional' part by removing ports and upgradeable/swappable components. USB-C is nice and all but it's not sufficient as the only port (and with only 3 of them left while charging).
If you go back that far - then yes. More recently? Not so much:
Apple's iPhone Share Continues To Slip In The US And Japan
http://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2015/06/30/apples-iph...
Apple's Smartphone Profit Share Slipping Vs. Samsung
http://www.investors.com/news/technology/click/apples-smartp...
Latest Gartner/IDC data shows Apple PC market share & shipments slip, Macs fall behind ASUS globally
https://9to5mac.com/2016/07/11/apple-market-share-shipments-...
https://www.amazon.com/Haunted-Empire-Apple-After-Steve/dp/0...
Apple, I'm done. You fucked me and I'm done.
My own experience with Apple's computers has been similar. The last Apple I purchased was a MacBook Pro back in 2006/7 that lasted me a solid eight years, including three in an extremely hot and dusty environment. The only problem it ever had was a faulty optical drive (and I did always have lots of trouble with Apple's laptop optical drives). But that is just one more individual experience.
Anyway, I don't know that "revenue generated while using the computer" really says anything at all. And I doubt Apple would come out ahead in that calculation industry wide.
>but that still puts me only about $1600 into this device
I always forget how dis-attached and money-blind pro-apple authors are from the 98% of people and how they approach money. I guess if I was in the 1%, I'd also think Apple was the cheap option! (I'd probably also think that about Lexus and BMW...)
$1600 over 6 years, or about $270 a year, is not inexpensive and the false label "cheaper to own" is absurd to the highest degree.
I could go out right now and buy a $600 laptop, a $200 chromebook, and be out $800 dollars. Then I could build a $500 rather powerful budget desktop, and be at $1300, with three devices, and have $300 leftover for repairs or upgrades.
I could buy a $800 laptop and another one in 3-6 years for that price.
I could buy an iPad, a Chromebook, and a $600 laptop. I could buy three $500 laptops.
There is no universe in existence where spending $1600 total cost of ownership in 6 years approaches ANYTHING CLOSE to "cheaper to own".
Frankly, I DON'T EVEN KNOW windows users who have spent $1600 in the past 6 years total, except for hardcore PC gamers whose hardware so dramatically eclipses the medium-grade consumer level tech in Apple laptops that to compare them is entertaining and silly.
see the recent IBM study on this very topic (macs vs pcs).
and yes, that's IBM as in IBM-compatible PC.
Haha I love when users attempt to act condescending, but actually demonstrate their own reading comprehension failure.
TCO --- you mean TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP, a concept I discussed at length in the post you're replying to?
Wow, imagine that. I'd love to discover a topic for the first time that I already discussed at length with over 4 different total cost comparisons, including repairs and upgrades.
EDIT: IF we want to do TCO, mind you, I notice pro-apple folks don't include the $100-$200 of mandatory spider-web adapters you have to buy, as well. TCO is complicated and it's easy for Apple fans to hide the significantly overpriced Apple accessory costs from it :)
If you value your time at zero, then yes, Windows on cheapo devices is your thing. Oh look, another Win10 upgrade, so good.
Value your time at zero, lmao, condescending affluence at its best.
If you are the 1%, you value your time at a what 1/10000 level of humanity?
There is no shame to admitting you have money and will spend it like this.
But for the rest of people -- the 9999/10000, a few minutes of learning and adaption isn't a waste of time, it's a material gain in skills and money.
Rationalize away ~
with apple you get a genius bar at least.
Case in point, my landlords have an old AMD64 (single core, 2.4 GHz, I think) system with 1 gig of RAM, running Vista. For the past five years, they've called me at least four times per year to come out to their house and clean up browser extensions and unwanted software that piggybacked on other program's installers. I don't charge them since I consider it a favor, but each time they pay me at least $50.
So that cheapo computer cost them $1000 over the past five years. They could've spent less than that, up front, and got a middle of the road refurbished Mac and likely would've never (or rarely) had to call me at all. I've suggested this or a flavor of Linux too, but they're afraid of change. Instead, they recently bought a little Dell netbook running Windows 10 for $270, and I expect the calls will keep coming.
You don't need a $1200 laptop to browse the internet safely.
This is a part of the "price blindness" of pro Apple users who are unwilling to consider the sub $1000 market, and seek to rationalize the value of what is fairly the worlds most expensive mass produced luxury laptop.
Wanting a Mac is fine, but pretending it's a cost-conscious decision that returns great value for the average internet browser is pretty ridiculous IMO.
What does a $1200 macbook do that a $500 iPad can't for the average user?
so we're against any notebooks now, as a typical user only ever needs a tablet? great, you've confirmed Apple's strategy across PCs and iPads (incl. the iPad Pro).
they're abandoning the Air and cheaper lines for that very reason - the iPads and iPhones are good enough now.
MPBs are now a testing ground for new inputs (Touchbar) and port unification. Eventually they all add a full touchscreen keyboard, once it can do haptic response (see the iPhone7 home button for a preview). first the Touchbar will become haptic, so we're at least 2 iterations away from it.
Actually more likely that this thing then ends up in the iPad product line, fully destroying the classic PC line. but who knows.
>I've suggested this or a flavor of Linux too, but they're afraid of change.
But go ahead and continue making assumptions about how "price blind" I am. I'm far from an Apple fanboy, but Apple is a brand that most people recognize, and yet usually stays free from the issues that Windows has among the less technologically inclined (which includes my 60-something year old landlords).
->socking it to the customer when a new product is released is a tradition in Cupertino dating back to the Apple III.
Remember the original 128K Macintosh cost more than $2400 and it was close to useless.
____ Does anyone know at what point it was that Apple blew up after firing jobs and had to call him back. was it before or after this?
As opposed to the other 68K offerings at the time it was pretty good, it brought window managed user interfaces to the masses (rather than those Apollo workstations that probably nobody remembers).
The ST was a game changer price wise but that 'useless' 128K Mac in many ways wrote history.
My question was where it fitted in Jobs 86 departure from apple.
I have a PC at home, almost passing the 5 year mark now. No problems with it, fast enough, plays the latest games. Only problems I've had with it was corrupted memory banks, but I'm inclined to think that's more to do with installing it myself than anything.
I bought an $850 Thinkpad T410 in 2010. Every time I've checked new laptops in the past couple of years I concluded that it wasn't worth upgrading - I'd only get a twofold increase in performance for $800+.
(Also reduced weight and increased battery life, but as a 6 ft. guy with a roommy backpack, carrying a 5 lbs laptop and a 1.5 lbs spare battery is not a problem.)
It still works fine but I ended up buying a higher spec'ed* mint-condition refurbished T410 for $250 this year, and a USB3 expansion card. I expect to get a good run out of it since I can cannibalize the old one for parts.
Not everyone has the time and know-how to service their own laptop, but for someone who does, like me, the nice thing with the Thinkpad ecosystem is the abundance of cheap end-of-lease refurbished parts and accessories, which are i) cheap and ii) probably better maintained than what you can get used from some bloke on craigslist.
(But the flipside is that new Lenovo parts and accessories are horrendously overpriced, since they target businesses.)
*HDD vs SSD, 8gb vs 4gb memory, i7 vs i5, 1400x900 vs 1280x800, discrete vs integrated graphics.
Do those upgrades listed include labor at apple care? The numbers don't even add up.
Not to mention, unless there have been some large strides in macOS lately, older apple products seem to lag pretty hard when you upgrade to the current OS and basically stop working if you don't. Windows 10 runs great on old PCs and many apps still function all the way back to Windows Vista.
[0] https://resource.squaretrade.com/laptop-reliability-1109
The IBM guy said Macs are more expensive to buy but cheaper to support, because
>Only 5% of IBM's Mac employees needed help-desk support, versus 40% of PC users
Guessing what percentage of Linux users needed help desk support is left as an exercise to the reader.
The economics of a business maintaining a fleet of laptops for mostly clueless users vs a tech-savvy individual maintaining their own laptop are not the same.
Also keep in mind that IBM started a Mac enterprise integration service last year. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
http://blog.macsales.com/38440-ssd-in-late-2016-entry-level-...
It may take a while for a 3rd party replacement to become available, but it's not soldered onto the motherboard. If you take it to Apple with a SSD failure, they're not going to bill you $800 for a new logic board to fix it.
Not sure where this assumption came from. It's like everyone's saying "I don't like this computer, so everything about it must be terrible."
No. $795+tax. "You might want to look at buying a new Mac" which got me same screen, same SSD, same memory, CPU from Haswell to Broadwell... I love planned obsolescence and "part pricing to encourage replacement, not repair".
[0]: http://www.businessinsider.com/an-ibm-it-guy-macs-are-300-ch...
Admittedly, I haven't read the entire thing. I stopped when I got to third paragraph because it seemed like an odd statement with no real backup other than the very general quote from IBM -
> There are lots of reasons for this, not least that better OS software means Apple needs to update its systems far less often than Microsoft updates Windows. "We have to go out and manage the Mac environment 104 fewer times a year than PC," Previn said.
I don't doubt IBM's information here by any means, but just as with Cringley's and my own example of consumer MacBook ownership, it's only one example - "IBM finds Apple computers cheaper to manage", not "Apple computers are cheaper to own".
[0] http://www.computerworld.com/article/3131906/apple-mac/ibm-s...
For me, I was itching for a reason to upgrade from my 2012 rMBP and to be honest, I have no plans to now. I don't want a thinner or lighter laptop, I just want everything to work all at once and some better battery life. The USB-C (and they fact that they didn't even mention it during the terrible keynote) was my biggest drawback, because now I literally have to buy adapters to plug in to my pre-existing adapters for this damn thing to work... Nope.
When Apple got rid of the CD/DVD drive, or FireWire, it wasn't this much of an issue because I could agree that those were things I didn't use (along with the vast majority). But with the headphone jack (on the iPhones only thankfully), and now the SD card reader, USB, HDMI, and Mini-DP... All things I use on an almost daily basis. It sucks that people will have to buy ~ $100 of adapters to get their old functionality back.
Also, if they're really touting this thing as such a professional's device, then their magical touch bar is even more flawed. I plug in external monitors when I use Final Cut Pro, Lightroom, Photoshop, etc. - most of their demos. Looking at a different monitor and then using the touch bar seems like such an awkward gesture.
Now, it's not the best comparison, as desktops and laptops have their own benefits, but if someone was to build a PC with the specs of the cheapest MacBook Pro (excluding peripherals), it would cost significantly less
Demand for talent has skyrocketed over the last 5 years.
Apple is doing and will do a shitload of money anyway.
People will buy Apple stuff anyway because people already are: unless you are an Apple user, you should know how "religious" (I'm being kind here) Apple users are. They have been consciously been buying outdated and overpriced hardware until now, and they have been super proud about this too.
Also, unless Apple software actively gets in the way of users doing their stuff it is all going to be "okay".
So this is going to last anything from five to ten years at least, still imho.
I have no true idea whether newer apple stuff is so bad or not (besides the idiotic drop of the audio jack on the iPhone). But Apple users have been subject to this Apple-isy for literally decades.
I have a suspicion that now that Apple Macbook Pros are so widespread, complaining about Apple is the new hipsteria.
This is what I feel, reading the news, on a foggy October, almost-November morning.
The only exception, Apple Music, is catching up to Spotify but that comes at the cost of paying for exclusives.
This is a usual mistake people make. They assume that performance is simply a matter of specifications. It's not.
The fanbase clearly helps Apple at the moment, but it can disappear within a few years if another company manages to make something truly better.
It's not about the hardware. It's about the tight and seamless integration between the hardware and the software. The competitors are living in a completely different reality in that regard.
Y'know, you're not wrong, but here's the thing: once I set up a Linux desktop or laptop, it just works, just like a Mac does. From what I can ascertain, Windows is the same. It's not like the 80s, dealing with IRQs and what-not. Linux is a little more annoying, with proprietary drivers for some graphics cards, but again: once it's set up, it runs. The integration is just as tight as on a Mac: the hard drive stores data (with a better file system than HFS+ …); the graphics card displays graphics; the USB system delivers data; the headphone ports play music.
Not only that, but I also have freedom, which is no small thing. So, the experience is a bit worse at set-up time, and better on an ongoing basis. That's not a bad trade-off.
[1] https://mesosphere.com/blog/2015/04/23/apple-details-j-a-r-v...
as tech is becoming mainstream, more and more "football coaches" will spout their nonsense, just like in sports.
That's the only explanation that makes sense to me.
The companies who actually pay for and produce the movies, films, documentaries, etc would never agree to it.
If they're not growing to your liking, blame consumers for handing over all that cash year after year just for the Apple brand, and hopefully a useful product that turns on, turns off and all those other fancy things.
This looks like Cringely's solution to the problem: just own the content at the source of creation and then the downwind problems will sort themselves out in Apple's favor.
My idea? Apple should purchase Dish Network/EchoStar and merge their satellite and Sling systems into the Apple ecosystem.
(You also get to own a fleet of deployed geosync satellites. That could be cool for other applications down the line).
The magical idea is just a lark thrown in for amusement. Cringely often tosses out semi-crazy ideas as entertainment.
Trying to produce a vertically integrated lock-in based system where you can only watch the latest shows on a multi-thousand dollar computer is also going to go down very badly with the public.
The highly integrated approach they've taken to hardware, software, and services across Watch, phone, tablet, computer, apps and a number of accessories have put them in an awkward place. They need to integrate more things into the stack, and whatever they choose needs to be almost immediately integrated into the full stack. HomeKit has been an effort to jump into the IoT with a better platform. Seemingly, Apple's main strategy now is to rely on the accessories or apps to highlight opportunities (siri, maps, etc) and then buy them and integrate them. I suggest that Apple should probably buy Sonos to continue pushing HomeKit and to follow on their acquisition of Beats, especially given the tighter integration that Sonos now has with the Apple ecosystem.
The lack of an obvious target for complete ecosystem integration is not only their lack of creativity, but the lack of obvious consumer demand for additional pieces of the puzzle. CarPlay is very nice, but it doesn't change car buying behavior, it is more like icing on the deal.
Finally, this leaves Software, which Apple has been investing less in since creating the app store. They've become comfortable as a platform company and have been unable to beat Adobe and others in the pro app market. To any professional, Software should be the obvious target, but it seems the vast majority of Apple's customers don't care enough to seek alternatives to Apple's apps. I think the lack of focus on pro software is what is really behind the lack of newer pro-level machines, since I suspect that APple's engineers on the software side were really the ones pushing for greater levels of machine performance (Logic, Aperture, Final Cut X).
Right now, Apple has Breadth in their stack, and they need depth. Software is the way to build depth, but it is not clear that Apple has anyone who understands software beyond OS-level details.
That's a pretty broad statement to make! What does it take for someone to qualify as understanding software?
They killed Aperture rather than compete with Lightroom, despite many people still using it. They replaced iPhoto with Photos (which is TERRIBLE, even for consumers). They replaced Final Cut with Final Cut X which eliminated half of the features at launch. iMovie loses random features with every major update (cut/paste across projects? really?) I don't need to really explain the number of things wrong with iTunes. The Mac App store itself doesn't work that well, except in highlighting the poor reviews of Apple's own apps.
imovie: 2 stars garageband: 3.5 stars Pages: 3 stars numbers: 3.5 stars facetime: 2 stars apple remote desktop: 3.5 stars apple configurator: 2.5 stars macOS server: 3 stars.
Now, nearly 2 years later, Final Cut and Logic have passed 4 stars, but they no longer offer a real photo editor of any kind, and they replaced Aperture/iPhoto with a pathetic iOS clone app.
So, I think I'm on pretty solid ground saying they don't get it.
Switched to full linux and windows around osx 10.3 and never regretted it. Even without final cut or imovie.
In one case I heard of, a young lady bought a car with CarPlay, and when it didn't work, she tried to make the dealership buy it back under a lemon law. The dealership made Car Play work, and she kept the car.
If I want to buy a car (used or new) and find out that it has CarPlay I will go back because I refuse to buy an iPhone and it wont work with my Android so what's the point?
Edit: why so many down votes?
They are very different in terms of architecture and wouldn't be surprised to see manufacturers stick with one or another to reduce cost.
Doubling down is a term from black jack where you double your bet because you think you have a good chance of winning. So in this case, you will offer double the money to buy a car because it has a feature you don't want?
Even when it comes to Apple, I cannot be assured that it will even work in 4 years much less the 8 or 10 that I usually keep my cars.
I know I am just one data point but pretty much everyone thinks that the infotainment systems that car manufacturers create is junk. As CarPlay increases in use I think the demand for it will increase as well.
The interfaces car manufactures build are horrible. Once you try CarPlay or likely the Android equivalent you'll never go back.
Interesting data point: one of the Ford models I was considering _still_ has it listed as "Coming soon". Glad I skipped that one.
Having used it for the past 6 months, it's now a basic part of my car-buying checklist.
Overall my best options for music are SiriusXM, USB flash drives, the Honda Pandora, and the Honda iPod interface. None of these involve Carplay. Also, Carplay requires a corded hookup. The Bluetooth in my car lets me make calls without hooking anything up.
I don't know if Honda's setup is atypically decent, but after buying the car in part because of Carplay, I now don't use Carplay.
Apple has a ton of money and a willingness to percolate new ideas. We won't be able to really evaluate the new MBP--and the ideas it contains--for years.
The Air wasn't a replacement of the Pro. It was a new device, an ultra portable.
It didn't become popular until they added a second USB port and SD card reader, added a higher resolution screen, fixed the battery life issues, fixed the horribly slow performance, and reduced the price big-time.
The second Air was a genuinely good machine, and that's when it became really popular.
- When they dropped the matte screen option
- When they dropped the 17-inch screen size
- When they dropped the Express Card slot
- When they dropped the optical "super drive"
- When they dropped Ethernet and Firewire
- When they made the battery non-removable
- When they made the display Retina
Many of these complaints were driven by legitimate concerns at the time (for example first-gen Retina machines really did struggle sometimes). Ultimately Apple saw significant sales growth, even among pros, and I don't see many calls these days to reverse those decisions.[1]
[1] This thread will probably now be inundated with calls to reverse those decisions.
This time, they do not have a single laptop with competitive specs. This time, they do not have a single laptop that has enough horsepower to be good upgrade for a lot of professionals. The new graphic card is average at best and there's only 16GB ram.
There's actually only one decision from your list I'd love to reverse. I liked the 17 inch macbook pro and I'd love to have one again... I have a macbook for when I need portability, my macbook pro is my work machine and just needs to go from my desk to my client's office.
It's fine to criticize Apple for that (plenty have), but to me it seems weird to single out the newest model for something that has characterized the line for years.
I expect the 32GB option will appear with the next Intel architecture. They undoubtedly engineered the case for that point in time and will just suffer the complaints until they get there. The case is not something they can change from year to year; the logic board is.
In the meantime it will be interesting to see what happens when people actually try the new machines.
Each of these lacks did impact my life, in the way of significant, but manageable, annoyances. The lack of optical drive meant my partner and I couldn't watch DVDs on it. The lack of Ethernet meant that transferring any significant amount of data off of it was a pain in the butt. And I went through periods of eye strain as a result of the screen.
Each of these was a serious annoyance that bothered me. But I put up with it, and was even considering getting a new Macbook Pro as my next machine, because the rest of the experience was great. Now, I'm definitely not going to be getting a new Macbook Pro, because the most recent changes cross over the line from significant, but manageable, annoyances in to the realm of major hindrances.
it's ok, the rest is disappointing though
...according to writers.
Writers seem to me to be paid at a market clearing rate, with the protection of a union. It seems to me that if they were truly underpaid they might find a better use for their time.
what the heck indeed..
At these past keynotes for example product managers have given canned passionless presentations for Apple products. Like the Apple TV presentation from last week
I'm never going to buy an iPhone without a headphone jack, but reinstating the jack on a future model would be admitting they made a mistake with the iPhone 7.
Likewise, with the new MacBook Pros, they are not going to release an update in a year's time that doesn't sacrifice ports and performance and battery life for size and weight, because doing so would be admitting a mistake. Nor are they going to dramatically cut the prices, such that they are actually affordable for someone, because doing so would be admitting a mistake.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12836747
> [The Macbook Air] didn't become popular until they added a second USB port and SD card reader, added a higher resolution screen, fixed the battery life issues, fixed the horribly slow performance, and reduced the price big-time.
Give it long enough, and it'll even be admitting to making big mistakes with Windows 10 telemetry data reporting.
And the reason they aren't cutting prices is likely because they're more profitable with prices as they are, not because they're afraid of admitting a mistake.
[1] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/neptune/neptune-pine-sm...
I've always found it interesting that the Android/iOS debate seems to go only one way. My handful of Android friends have tried convert with some new feature that does x and y over the years, yet I've never found myself trying to convince them to make the opposite switch. I think your quote sums that up pretty nicely.
But none of that matters. If I bought a personal iPhone, I'd miss a few things. I like installing software that isn't on the Google store (specifically, F-Droid, Amazon, and Humble Bundle, in my case). I like having a little Linux system on my phone, and being able to remote into it. I like using scp to get files on and off, torrenting on the phone, being able to expand the device's memory when my needs change, and plugging it in like a giant USB key if I'm somewhere that my laptop doesn't get wifi.
Tellingly, I just bought a new Android phone that took some pretty blatant design cues from Apple's hardware. I think the choice mirrors the choice of which device I use in different situations, in a way.
My first preference would be a desktop computer: powerful CPU+GPU, comfortable inputs, very nice outputs (multiple large monitors, a nice speaker system), and enough storage for everything I want, with room to spare. My next would be a laptop; it's not as nice, but it's certainly easier to carry into the living room. Past that, my phone isn't as capable, but it's easier to put in my pocket...so I'm stuck with whichever tools fits my requirements in my current situation.
Is there a site we can legally use to register that bet? I'd be interested in taking it.
I honestly don't think that the headphone jack will ever go away. Wireless audio is like wireless internet, in that it's better than nothing but worse than something with wires and a stable connexion.
I daresay you're correct that Apple think they're right, but … I think they're wrong. The question is, can they remain irrational longer than the rest of the market can be rational? I _think_, given Android's market success, that they ultimately can't: Apple have made too many mistakes in too short a timespan.
But only time will tell.
Worked at a much larger tech company 1 year ago. Had a desktop that was plugged in, so there's that. Guess I overstated (though I can't say I actually did plug it in myself). Also had a laptop that I worked on over wireless without problems. There were 5k-10k people in that office.
Still I do almost everything over wireless.
Obviously if you don't have a 3.5mm jack, that doesn't help.
You need a local wifi network for the CC, so you have to setup a wifi hotspot with your phone. Then you make the connection. The downside is that you cannot use car stereo buttons to skip to the next song. And you probably need double usb-charging for the CC and the phone. That's quite a lot of work to setup each and every drive, but for longer drives it might be a good option.
https://www.amazon.com/Antec-Portable-Bluetooth-Receiver-Hea...
Pair this with your phone, and plug it into power. When your car turns on, it powers on, pairs with your phone, and spits audio out over 3.5mm to the car stereo.
Comes with a 3.5mm male -> 3.5mm male plug for this purpose.
I think they are legal, because the winnings doesn't go to the participants, but to a charity of the winners choosing.
At this point we've been up for 14 years. If we're good enough for Warren Buffet's million-dollar bet [1], I'd say we can handle this bet too.
[1] http://longbets.org/362/
http://longbets.org. Also the site Warren Buffet used to bet that he could beat hedge funds with the S&P 500.
I don't know of any website that let you place a bet like that, but you could probably place it at a bookmakers.
regardless of the claim, you are just setting yourself up for failure when you make unbound claims like that, nothing lasts forever.
It depends on what factors you value. Wired beats wireless for reliability and speed. It gets crushed for convenience, though.
My home wireless is really spotty. I want to run Ethernet to several locations... in order to install more access points.
I believe that the iphone is by far the best executed mobile phone platform and the best hardware - and has been from day one.
However, I have never purchased or used an iphone because of my stubborn indignation over the lack of plain old USB for charging.
Contrary to all expectation and experience, everyone in the world got together on one little thing - establishing the global standard for USB charging - and the world was actually a very slightly better place. And apple shat all over that, and continues to do so, in order to make (on average) an extra $10 for every iphone sold.
So fuck that and fuck their iphone.
The stress of holding up the entire mass of the connected device (that can be as large as an iPad Pro!) is on the connector; and the stress of being held up by that connector is on the tiny part of the device that grips it. That'd be impossible with a USB connector (even USB-C), on both sides.
As it stands if you have a brand new Macbook Pro and iPhone 7 you can't connect the two without an adapter, which is just stupid.
Without a cable, not without an adapter. Very big difference. I can use the same cable to charge my phone from my MacBook's power supply and from the MacBook itself. When I travel, I only take one power supply and two cables. Even if the iPhone and the MacBook used the same connector, I'd still take two cables so I could simultaneously charge them both, so I don't have to carry any extra hardware.
Yes, it would be nice if they could use the same cable, but at least I don't have to take any extra cable or dongle for charging my iPhone (I still need dongles for other things, though).
All that being said, it'a interesting to use this logic to deduce what Apple does or doesn't consider an "accessory." The iPhone, iPad, iPod? Accessories. The Apple TV? Computer! The port to plug it into a computer—for XCode provisioning et al—is USB-C! To connect to it right now, you need either a MacBook with its charger cable; or the new MBP, plus an extra C:C cable; or a USB-A male:male cable (rare!) plus Apple's "MacBook USB" (female-USB:male-USB-C) adapter. A male-A:male-C adapter would be great, but nobody has yet made one. The market is very nascent.)
And well, many many other problems with that new thing that are entirely unrelated to USB.
In fairness, there are two huge new benefits to their new approach:
* You can charge on either the left or the right side. This reduces cable strain.
* If the cable breaks, you can swap it for another (cheap) USB-C cable, without having to buy another power brick.
There's an argument against Magsafe too: laptops are lighter now, so the magnets would have to be weaker to still work reliably, and thus also have more accidental disconnections (this is irritating). I'm not completely sold on this argument, but you can buy third-party USB-C Magsafe-like adaptors if it's really important to you.
For me, who's had several frayed chargers over the years due to cable strain, I really like their new approach.
(Note: there's a legitimate argument against Apple here too... I've heard that the reason Magsafe chargers are so susceptible to fraying is because they don't use PVC, and instead use a more 'environmentally-friendly' plastic, which is much weaker. They could still use more substantial strain relief regardless, but I'd guess they have aesthetic arguments against that, which is a silly reason for something so important. I'm not sure how much truth there is to this however.)
I think the difference now is that laptop batteries last a hell of a lot longer than they used to. So many people have a fixed charging location (e.g., a desk) and spend a lot less time in some place with a cable precariously stretched across the room to reach a couch or w/e.
Just a personal theory, maybe not true for others.
I can't either. A this point it's more the convenience of being able to pick up and go without needing to unplug the machine, and one I'll miss when I eventually get a new machine. That said, it's human nature not to remember things that don't happen.
That's a market that exists, sure. Is it a big market? I doubt it.
Yeah, that is a pretty weak argument :) The MagSafe works not by working (directly) against the strength of the magnet, but by the lever action of the connector eccentrically against the body. You can try this yourself by trying to pull the MagSafe away straight on compared to at a slight angle. Also, existing MagSafe is used with MBA, which are lighter than the new MBP. If that were really a problem, we'd already be seeing it.
I do hope that there are good third-party MagSafe replacements out there. The reviews of the Griffin BreakSafe are mixed. https://www.amazon.com/Griffin-BreakSafe-Breakaway-Chromeboo...
Or maybe Apple will come out with one in the future. I would love to know more about how Apple arrived at the decision to not provide some sort of MagSafe equivalent feature.
Apple doesn't use a shitty micro-USB plug? End of the world. Laptop manufacturers use a cornucopia of power plugs that change basically all the time? Crickets.
Is it wrong? We'll see. I think a lot of people work with their laptops plugged in as a matter of habit rather than necessity. That doesn't make it wrong, though.
I reached that conclusion over the "can't install apps without the manufacturer's permission" thing. I've always been surprised more developers didn't feel the same way.
Reaching outside of the walled garden isn't hard, but there are more things to consider compared to installing an apk on Android.
Not being able to install apps is a nuisance; not being able to distribute apps for others to install is a deal-breaker, but the main thing is that I'm afraid of our world becoming a place where walled gardens are the typical model for consumer electronics.
They are in a shitty place right now. They can't go USB-c without pissing off a good amount of their customers, but they can stick with lightening forever either (it's already starting to show its age WRT transfer speeds and other abilities)
Someone else raised an interesting point about docks. The lightning connection is designed to be strong enough to support a phone in a doc. I'm pretty sure this is not a design consideration for USB-C given how no one seems to care about Android docks.
The advantage of USB-C isn't so much in physical connection but the actual capabilities of the interface. Lightning isn't very powerful by comparison.
It is? I've been charging my Moto G for a few months like that.
Ridiculously fast charging, plus the ability to use the same charger for both your laptop and your phone.
Being able to consolidate all the chargers I own is an unbelievably exciting promise. That's only an option for me because I use an Android phone.
How much faster are we talking? I haven't seen any numbers with this claim, nor any justification. There are fast charging systems on the market already with Micro-USB. Qualcomm says their quick-charge solution (used in the new Pixel phones) works with A, Micro, C and others.
https://www.qualcomm.com/products/snapdragon/quick-charge/fa...
> plus the ability to use the same charger for both your laptop and your phone.
I'm not sure that's really all that compelling. It's nice, but I don't think it's nearly as nice as, say, my dock working.
The iPad Pro seems to support quick charging with the Lightning to USB-C cable and MacBook 29W USB PD adapter. And charges about twice as fast (2.5 hr vs 5 hr).
At this point, you might be tempted to claim that I would be able to use the same cables as other devices. To this, I'll point to the ongoing switch to USB-C and note that's you're buying new cables anyway.
Micro USB was a shitty plug. USB-C is better, but you can actually thank Apple for that, because it's a reaction to the Lightning plug.
My least favorite thing about my 5x is that it's USB-C. I regret upgrading before USB-C became more commonplace.
Please use the downvote button for comments that are not relevant to the discussion, not as the "I disagree" button. We aren't reddit. My point is factual, 26 million Americans move every year. The challenges and hassels would be comparable if we had different plugs for all our appliances and electronics are analogous to the problems we have with different standards for charging ports on our cell phones, just a larger scale.
Imagine what the market for appliances would look like if we had to accommodate for different outlets. Imagine if your kitchen aid stand mixer you bought for 600 dollars wasn't compatible with the apartment complex you wanted to move into. Or your iron, or your tv, or your charger for your laptop, or your hair dryer.
Also, my oven is actually an entirely different plug from my TV, and my dryer is different still. My lightbulbs connect through a totally different interface that doesn't even look like a plug! I actually seem to be doing okay with that.
I'm trying to illustrate why your analogy isn't good. How many phones do you own that are 100 years old? How many of those charge with Micro-USB? How many of them even have connections not designed to be hard-wired?
It's unreasonable to point at electrical standards that took decades to reach and have stood for decades and say "look, standards are great" as if that logic is applicable to phones that will be replaced in a few years that are using standards that have existing for less than a decade (Micro-USB) and only a year (Type-C). In the past two decades there have been over a dozen changes to the USB spec and almost a dozen different physical connectors.
While consistency is great, standardizing on a bad standard too early isn't a good thing. Would USB-C exist if not for Lightning?
> but 220 volt outlets are standardized in the US as well.
Kind of. There are both 3-prong (NEMA-10) and 4-prong (NEMA-14) 220 plugs in wide use. There are actually a whole bunch of "standard" connections in lesser use.
> The point is because of Apple continuing to "move us forward" we will never have something to standardize around.
If the alternative is that we were stuck with Micro-USB for a hundred years, then I'm very happy that Apple "moved us forward".
Not sure about 100 years old, but I can tell you my past 6 phones have all charged with Micro usb. The Blackberry Storm and the Blackberry Storm 2, a Moto Droid, LG G2, Nexus 4, and my current Samsung phone. I can still use the same charger, both wall and car, I got with my LG, with my current phone.
In 3 years, USB-C will dominate the market, but will have only a 3-year history of backwards compatibility. Assuming Apple keeps the lightning connector for that time (and I expect they will; 30-pin had a longer lifespan than Micro-USB), they'll have a 7-year history and a far longer history of backwards compatibility than USB-C.
At some point in the future, Apple might even jump on the USB-C train for their phones. But I think it will be a while, and I don't think Apple is doing the wrong thing by their customers by waiting.
> In 3 years, USB-C will dominate the market,
Which is another type of fallacy, but that's besides the point -- why will they change? Because everyone wanted a different charger or because some company decided to be "brave" and "courageous" and change them?
As for why? My pet theory is because the companies making phones could no longer defend the outdated and annoying Micro-USB in the face of Lightning.
I'll note that almost everyone who complains about lightning seems to not be an Apple user. Apple users seem fine with the horror of not sharing cables with Android devices. Apple users are also pretty happy that random hotels and whatnot have docks for their phones.
Oh, it's absolutely not. Apple makes a killing selling adapters. It's the users who get screwed.
Also, another point: I have a medical device and a Kindle which both charge via micro-USB, meaning I only had to bring one charger when I traveled. Huge benefit.
Apple customers aren't getting "screwed" as you claimed.
If you're still using micro USB, I hate to break the news, but you will absolutely be buying some new cables in the future.
In your case, you're carrying two other devices that use Micro-USB, which is great for you. Unfortunately you're likely to be facing a choice of replacing all of your devices or carrying two cables regardless the next time you upgrade your phone.
Apple obviously knows this, as they just moved their macbook to USB-C.
now i can charge my android phone with the same cable as my macbook, android is more compatible with the new macbook than the iphone is; thats an embarrassment
This is a baseless claim. They happen to use the same connector. iOS has a number of far more meaningful integration points with OS X, including iCloud and Messages.
both of which are atrocious.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Suggesting they'd knowingly sabotage #1 for #2 is absurd.
Clearly many of these decisions have been popular. I'd even wager that this an unprofitable decision for them, in the short term. This might sound counter to my original assertion that they're sabotaging billions of iPhone revenues for millions of accessory revenues, but it isn't.
There's a third thing they're optimizing for, and I think they're willing to sacrifice both of those revenues for it. USB-C is the "right" thing forward. Bluetooth is the "right" thing forward. They're trying to push the industry towards these things (whether or not it's a good idea is something you can agree or disagree with), and they're willing to sacrifice earnings if they believe make that future come sooner.
Happened with floppy drives, happened with CD drives, and it's happening now with USB-C and the removal of the audio jack. For better or worse, the bean-counters have never been in charge at Apple, and that's been one of their greatest long-term strengths.
Where "trending towards obsolescence" means "has realistically at least three years of non-negligible use for Micro USB", versus "was replaced by its manufacturer just over four years ago" (September 2012).
I'm yet to see gym equipment (a niche example) with Lightning, it's only 30 pin connectors.
If they'd gone with micro-USB, you would have the exact same complaint two or three years from now. That micro-USB devices still have 2 or 3 more years left of ubiquity is just a function of this exact moment in time, and you could have said that three years ago for 30-pin too.
That's a 11 year run.
I bet those treadmills are not even that old yet.
So let's call it. Micro-USB, 2007 -> 2016 (9 years). It had less of a run than the 30 pin dock connector!
---
I still have USB-B, USB-Mini and USB-Micro, and USB3-Micro-B devices... some were built even after USB-Micro was available, yet they still use USB Mini (which in most cases is a lot more sturdy than Micro). I have a ton of different cables for different devices because there was no real standardization until USB-C very very recently.
Why was the same vocal crowd not out when manufacturers switched from Mini to Micro and everyone had to buy all new cables?
With USB3 there is also a USB3-TypeB connector, which is not even backwards compatible with USB-TypeB...
http://www.datapro.net/techinfo/usb_3_explained.html
It was a completely bonehead move on Apple's part IMHO. I know they had their reasons for doing it, but I still think it was a big mistake.
Additionally, Why do I HAVE to use Itunes to sync the phone? I just want to grab a photo off of it.. where's my USB mode?
It's all just data in USB mode!
Thankfully, the comment you replied to is moot as well. I plug my phone into my machine, unlock the screen, and pull pictures off it all the time.
Still, when putting music on it, I'm left wishing that I had the option to use something like gtkpod, like I used to use with my iPod, back in the day.
They stuck with 30-pin because it was something their customer base had already bought into, and they didn't want to force a change. They went with Lightning because, let's be honest, micro-USB is shit — every micro-USB device I've owned has had the connector fail within two years. Lightning can handle 12W of power, micro-USB 9W. Lightning is reversible. Lightning has no moving parts on the connector, prone to breaking (or worse) grabbing onto your $700 device with a death grip and bring nigh-unremovable.
It would be great if they switched now to USB-C. They're clearly in the works on that, but didn't want to make a connector change on their phones after only two revs.
I'm always surprised by folks talking about failing microUSB ports. The microUSB port on my old G2 (HTC Desire Z) still works fine as does the miniUSB port on my G1 (HTC Dream).
I'm always surprised by folks talking about their non-failing micro-USB ports, as if that somehow discounts other people's devices that have failed.
I have had a number of lightning connectors fail on me. They're designed to fail. Pressure-held copper edge-connectors for devices went out with the Commodore 64's user port.
The fact that it is reversible is convenient but hardly worthy of consideration as a feature alongside "ubiquity" "cost" and "durability".
The old iPhone connector had it's limitations but it was established and really quite solid in my experience. Micro USB perhaps has limited features technically, and is ugly, but I don't believe the advantages that Apple presents for lightning outweigh the drawbacks.
As an interface it has a couple of niche use-cases that it fulfils but it is a step backwards in terms of connector design and in fact has a "worse" connector than the two other interfaces it purports to improve upon.
Props to Apple for padding out their profit margin and all that but they can absolutely go and shite if they think I'm going to swallow their "better connector" bullshit.
And they expect me to use it instead of a headphones jack now as well!
Are you saying that because you think there will be a better alternative to the 3.5mm jack a decade from now? What does that have to do with what Apple is doing now?
Apple wasn't the first company to ditch it, or even the second...
http://www.androidcentral.com/moto-z-doesnt-have-headphone-j...
But thank god I have a thinner phone, I was really having issues sliding it under doors.
Now your headphones must come with all the electronics required for USB-C and their own seperate DACs. This means they're going to be slightly more expensive without any actual improvement over your 3.5mm headphones. Not to mention all of those threats of DRM and whatnot looming around. So with that in mind, why would I possibly want to make the move to USB-C?
I suppose I realized this when I saw folks at a former employer's manufacturing department all buying $100 BT headphones... because that meant they could set their phone down and not worry about yanking it off the lab bench.
Now instead they have to worry about:
- charging stations
- how the headphones identify themselves to the computer
- skype and/or Windows arbitrarily refusing to acknowledge them as headphones during calls
- DRM
- more than 20$ on average price increase
- Security and privacy
It would likely have taken me a full workday to get them up to speed on any security/privacy issues.
As for DRM, not only do I think they wouldn't care so long as their music played, but I'm with everyone who sees no difference between a remote DAC and a local one. (Heck, these folks in manufacturing could easily have disassembled the headphones and put in an analog output at the appropriate point, they had the relevant rework skills -- and that would not trip any phone-internal tamper sensors.)
I don't think I'm going back to the audiologist to spend more hundreds of dollars a second pair that only works with iPhones and not my Mac or any pro audio equipment. Or depending on any battery device (like wireless headphones) that can't be plugged in while operating. Or having a device in my pocket that I can't plug in to a real PA system to test. Or paying what I currently pay for headphones that are iOS XOR Android.
Apple may be right for the millions who only ever use the included headphones, but in a world with compelling iOS alternatives that still have headphone jacks, I'm not throwing away the rest of my equipment or carrying adapters everywhere.
It adds too many unnecessary steps.
Adapters suck for unpredictable situations but those aren't common enough and Apple knows this.
Using a pair of headphones with multiple devices? At least between phone and laptop? That's not a corner case, even though Apple seems to think so by skipping out on a Lightning port on the Macs after putting out lightning headphones.
As long as you do that, the pain of having a (free) dongle attached to it kind of fades in comparison.
I'll take that bet. A decade, so lets say, we bet for $100,000? Is that Ok with you?
How about he wins if >50% of smartphones sold in the U.S. in 2026 lack 3.5mm headphone ports.
I'd personally bet $10k against you/OP on this.
That's the other guy's fault, though, because he (foolishly) offered a bet where the taker has "(almost) complete control of the outcome":
>>> I would be willing to bet that within a decade you HAPPILY buy a phone without a headphone jack, whether that be an Android or iPhone.
Might as well call him on it.
Now I actually do believe the OP will "happily" buy a phone without a headphone port. But not if he has a financial incentive to change his behavior.
Honestly, the OP might resign himself to it, but I'll doubt he'll be happy about it. It's not like headphones are currently connected with obsolete digital interfaces (e.g. RS232). Headphones are, by their very nature, analog, and making their connection digital just makes integration harder.
The wireless standard used by headphones (possibly not BT) will have enough bandwidth to no longer be the bottleneck in wireless audio quality. And more importantly they'll never need to be "charged".
Who's going to miss cables?
Sure, absolutely when Rezence” or “PMA,” or whatever the wireless charging standard becomes is ubiquitous. However we don't have that today, no will we have it in 18-24 months, the general duration of a customer's contractual obligation to a carrier and phone model.
And for people that need to type and talk at the same time, sometimes for hours at stretch - for maintenance window or outages or even just long conference calls, not being able to accessboth a headphone jack and a power simultaneously on their phones is a real deal breaker.
I don't think the OP is necessarily pooh-poohing change but rather being pragmatic and practical for the immediate term.
Something like a USB-C for everything could be doable - but as far as I know, USB-C ports are thicker than 3.5mm jacks.
I bet within a decade we will all happily buy autonomous cars without a steering wheel. This is because in a decade, battery life, software, connectivity and manufacturing experience will provide a large benefit and will be normalized.
I find it extremely difficult to believe that this will provide a 10x better experience. Here is what Apple is doing:
* The Computer is the Hub for all devices
* the cloud is the Hub
* the phone is the Hub
That's fine. Except that if my phone is using bluetooth to be constantly connected to my headphons & iwatch, as well as occasionally my computer; AND it can power my headphones it really dosn't matter if you give me 2x the previous phones battery I am running 4x the amount of devices off it. Apple needed to deliver a phone that lasts >3 days and headphones that aren't a chopped up earbud that can max out at 2 hours.
the iphone 7s will probably be awesome, this is the bridge model as Walt Mossberg put it, and it doesn't seem realistic to even consider buying it.
But definitely it is not going to be proprietary lightning digital audio port that requires external DAC and licensing.
No, sorry. I actually enjoy the music I listen to.
Steve Jobs on why the iPod color doesn't have video said something to the effect of "nobody want to watch video on a tiny screen". a generation or 2 later the iPod (classic style) can play video.
You can totally make do with html/javascript apps on the iPhone. Not long after there is an SDK/app store.
cut and paste on iOS: It took a couple years but here is our version that is world beating.
That round mouse they included with the original iMac didn't last long.
I think a lot of projects were killed (Newton, Pipin, iPod, the motorola phone that used iTunes.) that just didn't work out.
Not to mention 'ping' (social media for iTunes) and the cloud based infrastructure.
I think the problem is Steve really liked the mac, and you could see that during his demos he was a power user and understood the product better.
Said no one, ever, including Apple with the original iPhone.
I edited the comment to reflect that.
I think there's an alternate universe out there where Apple kept the Newton and it evolved into the iPhone.
I know this has been litigated to death in the original thread, but I think the 4 USB-C ports implicitly admits the MacBook with only a single USB-C port was a mistake. I think obsessing about having specific legacy ports is short sighted, and pushing forward with new connection technologies fits well with Apple's history of innovation. Having ports capable of being every thing from power connector to video display to high speed disk connector to mouse or keyboard port offers great flexibility and will seem like an obvious choice very soon.
I think the claimed battery life still fairs well against similarly spec'd PCs?
Size and weight are super important characteristics for many users. Not sure sacrificing these attributes would appeal to most laptop consumers.
"Nor are they going to dramatically cut the prices, such that they are actually affordable for someone, because doing so would be admitting a mistake."
It's only a mistake if their overall profits would be higher by cutting prices.
Now, the sacrifice I don't understand at all is capping RAM at 16GB. Makes the MacBook Pro seem like a very low end machine compared to the competition, and will almost certainly shorten its useful lifespan, especially for professional user.
Apparently, the lack of a higher capacity RAM was due to the performance/energy ratio.
https://twitter.com/DanFrakes/status/791754757404626944
Totally agreed. The laptop I'm writing this on has 8GB and Firefox happily gobbles most of it. The server I recently built has 16GB which already feels very constrained. My next laptop is going to have 32GB for sure. If Apple don't have a 32GB Macbook Pro my next laptop ain't going to be from Apple.
Oh. And it's fares well, no?
LPDDR3 RAM speed = 17 GB/sec, SSD read - 3 GB/sec. As much as it sounds crazy, i believe, SSD will eventually replace big and inefficient RAM's (which consume 6 W of power for each 16 GB slot)
Not sure what you call "admission" but they did screw up their Maps application and apologized for it[1].
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/sep/28/apple-map...
For the average developer the MBP amortizes out to somewhere around one day of salary per year, out of the ~251 annual work days, even less if you keep it more than four years. Is there any other industry with lower overhead costs?
Everyone is acting like Apple is extorting people or being unconscionable because they can't have 32 gigs of ram (no one else can at any small laptop size, Intel's chipset is the limitation), or the prices are extreme when they're really just right in line with inflation...
Do take a look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr_KxouI8Zs
In corporate politics that would be a suicide. Only Jobs was powerful enough to make mistakes.
Anyway it is shocking what Apple does now. During Jobs Apple removed product features only used by laggards. Now Apple removes the features used even by pragmatists and early adopters[1]. Do you known how many people moved exclusively to wireless headphones and TH3?
Another surprising thing is ignoring the professionals. They are in minority and it is hard to see them on sales charts. But they are opinion leaders.
Many people overpay for Apple products because they want to look as real professionals. Majority don't care which laptop is the thinnest, they use products used by opinion leadres. With current trend, in 5 years Apple brand might be associated with rich bozos buying gold phones. Just look at the Mercedes S vs Tesla Models S sales in last 2 years.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm
To wit: an insignificant change (dropping skeuomorphic UI) was coincident with Scott Forstall being canned.
> Many people overpay for Apple products because they want to look as real professionals. Majority don't care which laptop is the thinnest, they use products used by opinion leadres.
I used to think this way, until I went through 3 PC laptops in 2 years. Macs are worth every penny of the premium Apple commands, and more.
That said, to keep me as a customer they are going to have to do a better job convincing me they aren't planning to discontinue the Mac lineup. And they'll have to offer a more convincing spec bump over my 2014 15" rMBP, which remains borderline-overkill for my needs.
Maybe you should stop shopping for cheap, consumer-grade crap and get a real laptop like a Thinkpad or Latitude.
I don't give a shit about trackpads; I use the Trackpoints (which Macs don't have) since they're much easier and faster to use, and a separate mouse most of the time. No touchpad compares to a real mouse, just like a touchscreen keyboard will never compare to a real keyboard.
They're available with high-resolution screens, and even better, they're matte (Macs are not, they're glossy), so I can see them in different lighting situations.
Finally, I get mine at dirt-cheap prices by buying them used, because corporations buy these things in bulk and only keep them for a couple of years before liquidating them. So there's a very healthy used market with machines in excellent, near-new shape because they don't hold their resale value the way Macs do with their cultist followers (and the fact that most people have zero awareness of enterprise laptops). And since computers aren't actually improving technologically any more, a 3-year-old laptop in excellent condition is just as productive and useful as a brand-new one, but at a fraction of the cost.
Depending on your work, I think this is an outdated viewpoint.
Apple sells large, detached trackpads, and they're quite popular amongst people I know (all hardcore programmers):
https://www.apple.com/magic-accessories/
I personally still prefer a mouse when at a desktop, but it can't be denied that Apple's trackpads and their gesture support are incredibly good.
If only that were true. Lenovo products are high priced chunks of thin, flexible plastic.
You're basically comparing 30th floor office space to a freaking warehouse.
The PCs all failed spontaneously; it's not even like I dropped them or anything. And only one was the hard drive.
As for Mercedes S vs. Tesla Model S, that seems like an apples-and-oranges comparison there. The Mercedes isn't electric. EVs are fundamentally different vehicles from gas-powered cars, and someone who really wants an EV is not going to even bother looking at gas-powered cars in the same price range. That would be like looking at a really nice microwave oven and then buying a really nice set of stainless-steel cookware instead; sure, they can both be used for cooking, but they're really different approaches to the problem and not normally used for the same thing.
Just stop right there, OK?
Look back through my comments and you can see I've made this point a few times, but I'll make it again just for you. Mac laptops are sturdy, well made devices. My workstation provided by work is a lenovo W series laptop. I can push the bottom screen bezel and it flexes a full half inch. The plastic above the keyboard flexes also. The trackpad is meh (and TINY!). For the price (which at the time of purchase was not really inexpensive), it is cheap plastic crap.
My rMBP is solid. Feels wonderful to type on. The screen hinge stays put and doesn't shimmy. The keyboard feel solid with no flex. It's worth the price, especially compared to a lot of the junk that's out there today.
You misunderstood me. I agree that Apple products have the best build quality. But Apple was always something more than a well build luxury product. MacBook Pro was a tool used by professionals to create good things. Without professionals, it is just another luxury product. And ordinary luxury product won't have that high sales.
The macbook pro I used to use had a big dent in the front after only a year of use, and several scratches and dings. This X200 is over 10 years old and has _no_ signs of wear, and all of the hardware supports Linux _perfectly_ OOTB. It has a far better keyboard, too, plus a fingerprint reader and the famous little thinkpad light. I also used a Thinkpad T420 for a while, which has many of the same benefits and packs more of a punch.
Subconciously I take a professional with a good thinkpad more seriously than one with a Macbook.
Someone who values quality? It's not like I jab it all the time, but knowing it does it irks me. So glad I wasn't the one who paid for this junk.
> The macbook pro I used to use had a big dent in the front after only a year of use, and several scratches and dings. This X200 is over 10 years old and has _no_ signs of wear,...
So, you've matured and take better care of your things. Good!
> Subconciously I take a professional with a good thinkpad more seriously than one with a Macbook.
That makes absolutely zero sense.
Edit: I disagree about the keyboards, kinda. I have here a late 2014 rMBP, a Lenovo W530 and T510. I prefer the mac keyboard. I hate the w530 keyboard, but the t510 keyboard is really nice (it's before lenovo did the redesign).
This whole meme that people who buy Apple are sheep is getting old.
Like the original USB on the iMac (which also caused uproar), USB-C is significantly better than the previous mess of competing standards. The iPhone should have been usb-c too but that's a whole other debate.
Like the original MacBook Air (which was panned for performance), these new computers will be used by many for serious work, they are not fatally flawed or underpowered.
Like serial ports, analogue audio ports have had their day, USB has more than enough bandwidth.
You might disagree with these choices and compromises, but it's simply hubris to imagine HN denizens are in sync with the majority, or even ahead of it, they very rarely are.
Apple does. At least with Maps fiasco, Tim Cook apologized publicly.
Also as mentioned in the article - Apple charges a premium to, some would say, wisely cash-in on early adopters; over the life of the product its price drops. If you want an affordable Apple product - just like any other company - don't buy the very latest, newest model of any of their stuff.
Yes? Many companies do that, especially small to medium businesses.
Multinationals are the only exception.
Really? No one remembers the very public apology from Tim Cook about their Maps roll out?
http://www.apple.com/ca/letter-from-tim-cook-on-maps/
Compare the number of Google employees making public statements through blogs with the number of Apple employees who do so.
There's very little acknowledgement of public input, as if anything the public had to say about Apple products doesn't matter because Apple knows better.
They have backtracked from decisions made, several times, and admitted to mistakes too. Apple Maps is a good example. MobileMe, the return of buttons to the iPod shuffle, price cut on iPhone... same.
The problem is that what you or I think is a mistake, it might not be one in the eyes of Apple.
A lot of the frustration I see these days can be summed up as "Apple no longer is making a product that I like, therefore it is making products that nobody likes".
Well, maybe. Time will tell. But I think they have a very clear vision about how they want their computers to look and feel (same for iPhones) and they are heading there full-speed. For some customers it will be a deal breaker, for others it might be what they need to jump ship and buy a Mac or upgrade from a Macbook Air to a more profitable Macbook Pro.
When you hear about post-PC and how the computer market is changing, THIS is exactly what it means. Traditional computers and laptops are going to become more expensive, sell in less quantities and be very, very focused on some specific needs.
For companies like Apple, Microsoft, Dell, etc... this will translate into much simpler product lines that will update less frequently.
In a country as lawsuit happy as the USA, would any decent legal departement allow a company to admit a mistake?
And if these machines do not sell, I would expect they will cut prices or price the next version (which, then, may come out fairly soon) lower (it wouldn't surprise me if their roadmap already includes a version with a Skylake CPU and DDR4 memory at the current price point, while keeping the existing models around at lower prices)
Also, the MacBook Pro just launched. We can't know if it'll be a success or not, until 4-6 months later. I'm personally going to buy one (the higher end).
Just speculating: maybe Tim Cook wants to force a decline in sales in order to justify the killing of the low-performant MacBook line? Hackintoshes are fairly common nowadays and external keyboard and trackpad 2 can keep the great interaction provided by OSX.
As much as we like to hate on the new MBP (myself included) -- in the grander scheme of things, the new MBP is a more than competent Mac laptop for a lot of people.
The thing with people who spend a lot of time with computers is that we're an extremely passionate bunch. And because we're so passionate, we pay attention to the small details that matter most to us, while assuming those details have equal importance to everyone else, when that may not be the case.
I tend to think a lot of people, including those who aren't terribly happy about the changes, will begrudgingly accept these changes over time. If you're a fan of the Mac operating system, you don't really have many other places to go, even if those places are functionally equivalent.
For a lot of people who hate the changes in the new MBP, staying on macOS is still better than having to switch to Windows.