We've already had a huge preview into how well artificial food replacement products are received by the general public, in the form of Soylent and similar meal replacement drinks and powders.
The answer is that these products have niche demand at best, even before considering the problems they've had with quality control, negative health reactions, etc.
My own experience is that a few years ago I spent a few months living on a Soylent-like concoction of nutritional supplements . It covered all my nutritional needs and had me feeling great in some ways (just like Soylent users report), but after a while led to dreadful problems with my digestive system and mental wellbeing.
After everything I've seen and experienced, I'm very long on conventional food.
The bottom line is that from the perspective of the diner, it will not really matter (quality remains equal), but from the perspective of the restaurant, things will get a lot better.
It certainly seems like it should be more efficient for 100 people to eat dinner in a restaurant than for 40 people to cook 100 meals. (100 / average household size (~2.5) = ~40)
And yet it's considerably more expensive.
Because, it seems, a considerable amount of the cost of restaurant food goes to the overhead costs of the real-estate owners and the financial system. This is both directly and indirectly (the cost of the rent or financing of the restaurant space + the portion of employee wages that go to renting their homes + the cost of everything the employees purchase going towards rent etc.)
In other words it seems a disproportional amount of our economy goes towards people that own instead of people that do.
How do you solve that though? Increase rent-seeking taxes (interest, rentals, etc) and lower income taxes? (basically lowering significantly the benefits from buying things you don't use yourself)
For things like this, since the majority of lawmakers are also real estate owners, it would be a non-starter. But, even if it did happen, I feel like the food costs would just increase to compensate for the taxes, since the rental prices would certainly go up disproportionately.
But food prices _wouldn't_ go up in the owner-operated restaurants which would then have a significant competitive edge. Likewise real estate prices should go down, higher taxes would mean less demand and owner-operators would be more motivated to buy than investors. Likewise investor dollars would be guided by taxes to more productive targets.
Investing in restaurants that own land as opposed to investing in land that restaurants use seems like it would have significantly different effects to the economy.
It's easy to say the raw food ingredients are considerably less expensive, but that's only a small part of the story. There is a cost of having a kitchen (tools and space in the home), utility costs, not to mention your time.
Maybe a high end specialty restaurant that is selling an experience, but I'd be surprised if you could actually compete with a place like McDonalds on cost.
Maybe a high end specialty restaurant that is selling an experience, but I'd be surprised if you could actually compete with a place like McDonalds on cost.
Fries and a hamburger are about the easiest thing to make, requiring no special equipment. The ingredients are a lot cheaper than buying at McDonald's, too.
If you have more than one person eating, then the cost savings can really add up.
> Fries and a hamburger are about the easiest thing to make, requiring no special equipment.
For all practical purposes of modern urban life, you at least need some kind of specialized heating apparatus.
More importantly, somewhere to store that apparatus. Which is quite often a kitchen. In San Francisco, the median housing cost per square foot is almost $1,000. A small kitchen is defined as 70 square feet, or $70,000. If we assume a rate of 3%, the opportunity cost of that kitchen is almost $6 per day, or $2 per meal if we assume three meals per day.
That brings the cost of an $8 McDonalds meal down to about $6 right there.
Then there is your time. San Francisco has officially declared that your time is worth at least $13/hr. At that rate you have just 28 minutes before you've already used up that $6. That includes gathering the ingredients, prepping the food, cooking the food, and cleaning up afterwards. That does not leave a lot of room for error, even for something as simple as burgers and fries.
It does indeed get better with scale, but I have also left off a number of other costs, including the cost of the food itself. For a single person (in SF) it is no contest without even getting into other costs.
Of course, there is something to be said about the food you can create yourself, versus eating at Mcdonalds every meal. Cost isn't everything.
There's also the fact that you can't just buy enough to make one hamburger and some fries. At a minimum, you can buy enough to make 2-3 hamburgers (and you'll have leftover buns, cheese, etc). So now you have to store that extra stuff (more sq footage and refrigeration costs). You might not eat it all (and it goes bad, meaning you throw it away). Or you might freeze it for later (maybe - some things you can't freeze of course).
...Have you never cooked a meal for yourself or something? Yes, even after accounting for those things, which are amortized over time, the cost of a single meal is not 4+ times the cost of the ingredients. Maybe if you insist on comparing cooking to your hourly wage it starts to look more competitive.
As for McDonald's, well, if you want McDonald's-quality food you can do it cheaper.
> ...Have you never cooked a meal for yourself or something?
No? I try to cook most of my meals. In fact, I prefer it over eating out. I'm not convinced it is fiscally optimal though, but I'm okay with paying the premium for my preference.
> which are amortized over time
Like I pointed out in my other comment, simply having a small kitchen in San Francisco will cost you $2 per meal (assuming you eat three meals per day in it), on average. And that amount per meal goes up if you ever decide to skip a meal or eat away from home on occasion. That is not an insignificant amount when prepared meals are also available in the single digit range.
> Maybe if you insist on comparing cooking to your hourly wage it starts to look more competitive.
If we're talking a programmers wage, you can barely even get into the grocery store before you've accrued enough to pay for several McDonalds meals. Never mind the actual cooking, cleaning, etc. It's not even in the same ballpark of competitiveness. But, like I pointed out in the other comment, even if you only accounted for minimum wage, it barely gives you enough time to serve a meal before it is costing you money.
For a fair analysis, you do have to consider some amount. Maybe not the full amount that you would make at your day job, but something for sure. It is another opportunity cost, after all. If you are not including opportunity cost, you are not painting a true picture.
> As for McDonald's, well, if you want McDonald's-quality food you can do it cheaper.
I wouldn't get too hung up on McDonalds specifically. There are some decent mom and pop joints that will give you a good meal for even less than McDonalds. The point was to exclude $50+ a plate-type places, or whatever, as they are selling an experience that so happens to include food.
My point is that if you compare like meals with like meals home cooking is going to be far cheaper just about every time. If you compare cooking a steak to eating eggs and potatoes at a diner maybe not. Restaurants sell just about everything at at least 4 times the cost of the ingredients. The energy and so on aren't exactly free but they're not running a charity either.
And further, it's not like there are all these no-kitchen apartments for rent so you almost certainly have a stove anyway. Your average refrigerator apparently costs you less than $12 a month in CA (http://homeguides.sfgate.com/calculate-cost-run-refrigerator...) so it's a pittance too.
> My point is that if you compare like meals with like meals home cooking is going to be far cheaper just about every time.
Is that meant to be a tangent to the original discussion?
This discussion was about restaurants not seeing the benefits of economies of scale. I'm suggesting that they have, it's just not particularly obvious because people are quick to ignore most of the costs of cooking at home.
If all you are saying once you have already invested in the means of production, and don't value your time, that a home cooked meal is cheaper... then sure. I'm sure just about everything you could possibly buy is cheaper than retail if you are only including the raw materials you need to get the job done.
If you already have a garden and your time is free you can grow the food for far less than the grocery store charges. Heck, if you already own a silicon fab and don't value your time designing chips, you can likely build a computer for a fraction of the cost of one in the store. But that's a pretty silly way to look at it. There are real costs to having the production capability that should not be ignored.
Well, I'd argue that we should talk about the world we actually live in and not one where people have homes without stoves and with silicon fabrication devices.
Because arguments like the square footage of your stove as a percentage of your rent assume, unrealistically, that you have to opt in to having a stove instead of it being a standard part of dwellings.
Is it? I thought one reason that obesity was higher among people with lower incomes is that it's cheaper for them to buy prepared food than to work an hour less and cook themselves?
If I spent the time I did on cooking on paid work instead, the money I would make could pay for a very good meal. (of course, I don't, I still cook because I can't spend every waking hour working or I'd go insane)
That's not exactly it. It's more practical and it's more expensive but not so much more expensive that it's out of reach like better prepared options might be.
the tipping situation sucks, but the larger economic problem is effectively due to rent extraction by the landlord. when a restaurant can't afford the rent that, say, a bank can, they are effectively priced out of the market. All excess returns and up going to the land owner. This effectively becomes a variant of baumol's cost disease. Once again, return on capital trumps return on labor.
I remember, many years ago, living in Manhattan: in a short period of time, for restaurants on each corner of an intersection were replaced with four banks. A vibrant spot died.
A landlord's decision to improve or not improve the property only depends on 1) the cost of the improvements and 2) the expected revenue stream from that improvement, neither of which are affected by an LVT, since the LVT only cares about the unimproved value of the lot.
You are a landlord. You need to decide whether to make an improvement to your property.
There are only two things you care about:
1. How much money does that improvement bring in?
2. How much does that improvement cost?
Neither of those two inputs are affected by a land value tax. Therefore the landlord must reach the same decision, regardless of whether there is an LVT or not, and so LVTs have no effect on whether landlords improve their property.
You might think that they'll be motivated to improve the lot in order to be able to pay the LVT, but that rationally doesn't factor in to the decision to improve the land or not. It only affects the price of the land (Imposing an LVT makes land prices fall by the discounted future cost of the tax).
And not to be rude, but it seems strange to jump into discussions recommending LVTs as a solution to an economic problem without first understanding basic economic theory.
You might think that they'll be motivated to improve the lot in order to be able to pay the LVT, but that rationally doesn't factor in to the decision to improve the land or not. It only affects the price at which the land is bought or sold.
I misunderstood the LVT as something that is levied against the landowner every year?
And not to be rude, but it seems strange to jump into discussions recommending LVTs as a solution to an economic problem without understanding basic economic theory.
I read an economist article on it, and I thought that I understood it. Apparently I don't.
I won't be recommending it in the future until I fully understand the consequences.
> I misunderstood the LVT as something that is levied against the landowner every year?
Yes, but it still doesn't affect the (rational) landowner's decision. Imagine an improvement that can net the owner $Y a year in profit. A rational owner should always make that improvement, regardless of whether the government is also taxing them $X a year on the land.
If they doesn't have the money/capital to do so, they should sell the land to someone else. Obviously not every landowner acts fully rationally, but in the aggregate, landowners should act pretty closely to that model.
>Yes, but it still doesn't affect the (rational) landowner's decision. Imagine an improvement that can net the owner $Y a year in profit. A rational owner should always make that improvement, regardless of whether the government is also taxing them $X a year on the land.
It's not just about whether return is positive, it's about the highest ROI considering opportunity cost.
Consider a simple case where two lots with one story of development each can produce as much as a single lot with two stories of development. With a tax on land+improvements, a landlord does not prefer one over the other. With a tax on land value only, the single lot with two stories is preferred.
>If they doesn't have the money/capital to do so, they should sell the land to someone else.
Indeed. If the neighbors have ten stories of development, a landlord with a one-story building will not be able to afford the LVT and will sell to someone who can afford to build ten stories.
> With a tax on land value only, the single lot with two stories is preferred.
Yes, but that's because tax on land + improved value distorts incentives (by discouraging improvements).
Usually when we say the LVT doesn't affect incentives, the baseline of comparison is against no land taxes of any form. In that world, you would prefer to develop the single lot because you need to buy less land, so the result is the same as with LVT.
> Usually when we say the LVT doesn't affect incentives, the baseline of comparison is against no land taxes of any form.
That really confused the whole discussion as the current situation is tax on land + improved value, making it look like you were arguing from the other side. No tax at all is anyway taking it to the extreme as the government need money, so it becomes merely an academic exercise.
LVT changes #2, because the ongoing tax cost of putting a new high rise on your empty plot of land is no different than it being empty or it having 4 single family homes. The property tax bill make having a single family home an expensive luxury in dense cities because of the high land tax relative to the amount of improvements on it.
In our current scheme, improving property is disincentivized because it increases your property tax bill with reassessments.
I doubt this very much. They'd be incentivized to make more improvements. Under our current regime what is currently a smaller profit would translate into losses under LVT.
Theoretically there's no difference between a smaller profit than is possible and a loss for rational profit maximizing agents but the psychological difference is huge.
What do you mean by "it doesn't work" exactly? No tipping in restaurants does work in many countries where people are paid a living wage from the outset, from Norway to Czech Republic.
And it works fine in many other industries in the U.S. where there's no tipping.
It's taking some restructuring of how the restaurants are being run, which is to be expected. USHG is also in a good position to try this, as they have relatively deep pockets, but this, as well as how many other societies don't have tipping at restaurants belies the idea that "it doesn't work".
As an aside, I'm surprised that the article makes no mention of USHG.
Went to a revolving sushi bar tonight. Everything was automated. They even had a touchpad where you can put in orders (like miso ramen soup), which get delivered by a belt. The only thing the servers did was sit us and bring us water. We asked them to replace a leaking soy sauce container and they never did.
We tipped 0$ -- there was essentially no service. I kinda felt bad, but talking it over with my wife, I couldn't really find a reason to tip.
Were you actually requested to tip? If so, it seems strange. When I've gone to many kaiten-zushi places it is usually stated that you shouldn't tip at all (in Japan you don't). There used to be one like that downtown Berkeley off Durant that closed a few years back.
I also don't understand tipping at food carts. Customers stand in a line to pay and get their food, and are also expected to tip (either via Square or through tip jars).
Edit: the expectation is generally implicit, and while standing in line, I can't help but notice that most customers hit the minimum tip percentage on Square, which is usually 15%
I never hit that minimum thing. I'll give $1 every once in a while because they're friendly and the town is so expensive, but the food prices already definitely reflect that, and there is no service, so /shrug
For what it's worth, I sometimes hit the minimum tip percentage solely because a colleague at work is with me. The "impulse" to hit that button is greater if that colleague is my boss. But, even when I'm surrounded by strangers, I still feel this need to hit the tip button.
Ultimately, I think right now the social expectation of tipping in this situation is in limbo- whether you do or don't, it's ok.
The donut shop I buy from put a new card reader system in place (probably to support chip cards). The UI requires you to enter something for a tip before you can proceed. It irritates me so much that I have stopped going as frequently. It's as if my waiter at a restaurant would hover over my table watching what I put on the tip line of the dinner bill. Infuriating dark pattern.
I've traveled the world and have come to the conclusion that diners are better off in a tipping environment. Realize this is purely anecdotal but time and time again we have come to the realization that incentives matter and incentivizing good service makes sense to me (and I shouldn't have to order a bottle of wine at lunch to get it). If all someone is going to do is play telephone from one side of the room to the other, no thanks, I'd rather save the 20% and order off an iPad.
I remember when Ichiban switched to iPads and optimistically fired about 30% of their wait staff, presumably after drinking the kool aid. The service was horrendous until they hired them back.
It's in our office block (aperia, well north of the cdb). Not sure what it's called, but makes lunch a breeze and means I'll usually go there rather than grabbing a sandwich from Spinellis coffee shop
Absolute biggest hate at restaurants: waiting too long for the bill. I have eaten. I have enjoyed it. I now want to go somewhere else for a drink, or catch my train home, or whatever. Don't make me wait.
Many years ago I was working in the US for a few months and went to get a haircut. I wondered why the guy looked at me strange when I suck my hand out for my change.
It wasn't until I was back in my hotel room that realised I was probably supposed to tip.
Same experience on my first trip to the US. The taxi ride from airport to hotel was $12. I didnt have small notes on me as i had just changed my money, so i gave him a $20 note.
I waited and he just looked at me incredulously and asked "What? Do you want CHANGE??". I apologised and said i forgot about the tip thing and perhaps he could just give me a couple of singles as change. I thought that basically 40% tip was a little high. He gave me a couple of bucks back with ill grace.
Pretty much turned me off the whole expected tipping culture altogether.
The comment to which you replied was talking about different industries, not a single industry across different countries. Your comment doesn't refute the point.
Yes? I really dont see the difference here. In both cases they are paid. In non tip environments usually even well better because its a nice salary plus random tips here and there
Your world view certainly does not encompass Japan then. It is basically not possible to leave a tip there. You'll be chased down the street with the money you 'forgot'. And if you could get past that misunderstanding, through insisting, then you'd be insulting the server by rudely highlighting your spending power, over their presumed economic need.
Agreed. Tipping culture gives more power to the customer and results in better service in my experience. Every time I come back to the US I experience a noticeable increase in attention and service. Also, when abroad, if they find out you are from the US many servers will put in extra work as they know there is a decent chance you will tip based on your home culture. I always tip even in countries where it isn't expected especially if I plan on frequenting the establishment regularly. Im happy to pay a bit more for more attentive service.
The thing people seem to be missing though is that a set "expected tip level" ruins the whole thing. If you are expected to tip 20% for just "service" what incentive does that give to provide "good service"?
Sure you might have a higher chance of getting 30% for good service - but I think it's probably easier to get 10 or 20% for good service in a place where 0% is the expected level.
If you aren't getting service worthy of tips, don't tip. No one is going to stop you on your way out. You may get worse service the next time you come back. However, why would you go back if the service was bad the first time?
Thats the idea also where there isn't a set level of expected tip (like in most of the world).
I'm not opposed to the idea of tipping, I'm opposed to the idea of a specific level of tip being expected, effectively making it a part of the staffs wages (which consequently means staff isnt' paid if you choose not to tip).
You are probably missing the point. Most people would not mind tipping for good service. It is when the tip is thrust upon you that it becomes a problem. When people start saying stuff like 'oh! you are robbing the waiter of his income', it becomes downright offensive. Tipping should be contingent on good service. It needs to be earned, not demanded to make up for an employer skimping on wage.
I'm an expatriated US citizen, and I find the restaurant service abroad on par with US restaurants, with the only difference being how much lip service is given by the servers.
To explain it simply, in US restaurants, I feel like someone is trying to brown-nose the entire time. It's not value that I seek, it's someone doing something and trying to place value on it. The servers are mostly pleasant, and at worst, it's just over the top corporate politeness being enforced, with of course the occasional just bad service.
Abroad, the server is indifferent - when the food is ready, it is brought. They are as polite as you would you expect a restaurant server to be, and in general just want to take your order, deliver food, and then get out of your way because they know you're not at the restaurant for their company, you're there to have some food and drink, presumably with friends/family/colleagues. And just like with US restaurants, there is occasional bad service.
The difference in my mind is the attempt to provide the 'service' that isn't really necessary. This isn't looking down on servers or dismissing the effect a good attitude can have on enjoying a meal, but for the most part the degree to which it is taken when I'm back in the US is over the top. I know it's hard work and that the servers want to do everything possible, but corporate politeness isn't the way to do it. It makes the experience feel really rushed to me and it also feels like a process instead of me being able to just relax and enjoy some good food.
What upsets me is when I have to wait too long for refills on drinks and if I'm not checked back on to see if anything else is needed shortly after the food is served. I've had many experience in non-tipping countries where you may never see your waiter again after the meal is served. Of course, thats just my experience but it seems fairly consistent. I never have that problem in the US and if I do, I certainly don't tip.
If there is poor service report it to the manager or something but please don't withhold a tip. I've explained the reasons in another comment - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13263490
I cannot speak for all restaurants and all counties, but as noted in my comment, I'm currently abroad in Russia (St. Petersburg), and while it's true that the servers generally don't check in for anything else other than the bill once the food is served, it's also true that they'll be there pretty much immediately if you ask for them or signal them. A simple gesture and they'll be there pretty much as they are able to be.
To me this seems the right balance of service and respect of privacy.
As an aside, my experience is that most restaurants also don't really do refills so much as "another drink purchase", so it kind of makes sense in my mind that they're not keeping an eye on how much liquid you have left - if you want to spend money on another drink, you'll let them know.
I think this is just a cultural difference as well as a different way of business. To me having a server constantly checking in on how much is left in my glass or interrupting to pour a drink is more disruptive than a quick gesture to catch the server's attention and signal them over.
Is the US system of tipping as an expected part of the pay of service staff really an incentive though? Isn't the incentive of service staff really just based on getting more than the "base tip" (which can be 10, 15 or 20%)?
In countries where he "base tip" for the expected level of service is zero, tips can still be 10% or 20% for good service.
Interesting. It depends on what you mean by better off. I almost never had problems at restaurants with no or optional tipping. The waiters tend to behave professionally and this is what I wish. But in the US, I always feel uncomfortable with the over-the-top behavior of waiters. They behave like I am their long lost high-school friend and I find that creepy.
I respect that but find it to be a bizarre tradeoff I would never willingly make.
I would pick the perky attentive waiter sporting a smile that neither you nor i know is fake over a sullen inattentive person anywhere. In fact, if someone is having a bad day, I actually appreciate the effort to make it better with a fake smile than imposing it on me with a bad attitude. I've experienced overbearing waiters and the solution is as simple as politely asking for space. Nobody walks away from a moment like that feeling angry.
Back to the ultimate point: the question at hand is does tipping (overall) add to or take away from the quality of service provided to the partron. Based on my experience the answer is yes. All else equal - a person may or may not care about the tip.. in which case you get your base level of service. However, you may come across someone that does, in which case you are overwhelmingly more likely to get better service as a result.
Last thought: I find that tipping for service establishes a more direct human bond between me (the recipient) and the person performing the service that ultimately adds (positively) to the mutual experience. Rarely have I been anywhere where I walked away thinking I would have gotten better had I not tipped.
> sporting a smile that neither you nor i know is fake
If it's not fake, they're doing a bad job showing it.
>the solution is as simple as politely asking for space. Nobody walks away from a moment like that feeling angry.
Not angry, but it is an awkward thing to request, and I'd rather not have to.
>I find that tipping for service establishes a more direct human bond between me (the recipient) and the person performing the service
I absolutely disagree with that. I find reliance on tipping creates an alienating subservient relationship. No one is going to be genuine when they're depending on my opinion of them for their pay that evening.
How about a third option: a professional that knows how to give food and wine recommendations when asked with no fake smiles and pestering.
In some european countries this would be normal even for small moms-and-pops restaurants.
3rd option seems fine dining place with wine experts and all. I think those sullen teenager or perky waitress would be working at a diner or something.
Incentives matter, but a percentage based tip is simply the wrong incentive. It is the same amount of work for the waiter if I order $10 spaghetti and a $30 bottle of house wine, or if I order $50 steak and $300 bottle of Champagne. Why should s/he be rewarded for my own choices, based on no input or effort on his/her side whatsoever?!
In another thread someone mentioned how bad the service is in Dutch restaurants (which, being Dutch, I agree with). In the Netherlands tipping is not required but it's not uncommon to tip for good service. Yet the service is bad. So I don't believe tipping is such a good incentive. Unless perhaps you pay the waiters the absolute bare minimum and they basically need the tips to survive.
It also doesn't really explain the fact that tipping in the US is basically mandatory, regardless of good service. If it's basically mandatory, where's the incentive to offer good service?
>Realize this is purely anecdotal but time and time again we have come to the realization that incentives matter and incentivizing good service makes sense to me (and I shouldn't have to order a bottle of wine at lunch to get it).
But this works both ways: If the service staff expects to be tipped regardless of the quality of service, then there's not much incentive for good service in the first place, because the customers are expected to tip anyway and bad service will just result in a marginally lower tip.
If customers are not expected to tip at all, then the service staff has to put in some actual effort to get a tip, because their service needs to be so "exceptionally good" that the customer actually notices it, instead of just taking it for granted.
I'm American. I've traveled enough and I've even lived outside of the US for a time. I have no idea how you can come to this conclusion, I've never had noticeably bad service outside the US and certainly nothing like "play[ing] telephone from one side of the room to the other." The only difference I notice is there's disturbingly fake niceness in the US and they rush you out after you're done eating. I guess if you are looking for someone to pretend to be your friend you'd get that. Personally, I'm just looking for a meal with my dining companions.
Unless everyone decides to kill tips all at once, this will never work out. No server will work for a fixed 20% increment when they have the potential to get a lot more than that, especially on Saturday nights. There have been plenty of examples of this not working out [1].
The articles mentions a raise of 15 to 30%. A waiter who makes 40% tips would probably accept a no-tip job at a 30% raise (Assuming the 40% tips weren't very stable).
Very rarely do I cite market forces to address social problems, but to me this feels like an appropriate situation for it. Restaurants are constantly getting applications, and many who do not do well on high-tip nights will appreciate the stable paycheck. I won't put non-sense statistics to it, but while many servers do earn huge paychecks from tips, many others scrape by and fight for hours at minimum wage and have the constant threat of termination looming over them when they aren't able to get enough tips to cover their wages and the restaurant has to pay the difference. (Assuming the restaurant is even operating on the level)
There will be a period of social adjustment and probably some resentment as tipping restaurant hold-outs have servers that brag about huge payouts. But over time the more stable paycheck will be more reliable and better for servers, and while some servers may leave over lack of tips, they will soon find it difficult to find a place that does have a tipping policy.
But part of the problem is that the tipping-culture already VERY quickly corrects that problem.
Restaurants generally over-staff, and tend to get really cutthroat about who stays and who gos when it's needed. A place I worked when I was younger would regularly take the lowest performer off of saturday nights every saturday night.
The ones who aren't making a huge amount of money on the busy nights are already removed from it before they can even think to complain about it.
And it was a very "open secret" that if the restaurant needed to "supplement" your wage for ANY reason, you were going to be gone the next week. I saw it happen many times. So it was somewhat common for the wait staff to "pad" their own wages with tips if they had a bad week.
So now you get the situation that everyone involved wants to keep tipping.
* Well-performing waiters want to keep tipping as they make a lot of money, not tips means a huge pay-cut.
* Under-performing waiters want to keep tipping because they know the second the restaurant needs to pay their wage, they will be the first to go. So it's either keep their low-paying job, or have no job.
Yup. Once we had to start pooling our tips, you better be getting a minimum of 10%, or you'd get crappy shifts. 15% was expected, and to be a star waiter, 20%+ was the goal. This was partly to weed out the underperformers, but also to limit underreporting of tips by waiters. No one liked pooling, so they'd surreptitiously pocket a few tips.
I disagree with the conclusion since the premise (tipped wages make for unstable work) is exactly what the restaurant owners are complaining about, and many servers do as well. As others replied, the high payout often overshadows the rainy days for those servers lucky enough to get a killer night of tips. They remember that because it's an actual event as opposed to the night the spent not earning money while looking at their phone. In the long term it's unsustainable and it is more of a problem for restaurant owners than most want to admit.
There will be holdouts no doubt but overall the rest of the world has no lack of people willing to wait tables. They just get a steady pay check out of it instead of hoping for hours.
I'm pretty sure that this is a form of Gambler's Fallacy.
I've heard a story of a waiter who got a high rollers table one night and walked away with a $1,000 tip.
But I heard it from a girl who worked with him. He was a 20-year industry veteran. She was some five years in at the time. The story was told another five years after it happened.
Sure, it was a massive payout on one night of work... But they don't recount the stories of the hundred rainy sundays where nobody shows up, you close shop early and go home with less than minimum wage.
They also save the story of how they couldn't get a mortgage because the bank can't see the income from tips.
I've heard the story of feeling "stuck" in bartending a number of times. You make more than you could in any other career with no skills, but you can't do anything with the money, it isn't fulfilling, the hours suck, retraining is hard and so is starting at the bottom on a new career ladder.
I know a few who've tried and failed to leave the industry and one who became an accountant for a fortune 500 (and now 'mom' too!).
Anyways, I've gone off on a tangent. My original point was unless you're getting those big-tipping payouts every night (eg: the million dollar a year Vegas bottle service girls) serving likely isn't as good as it "feels"
>I'm pretty sure that this is a form of Gambler's Fallacy.
Definitely. In my experience the waitstaff who most vigorously support the tipping culture are the ones who don't keep exact track of their tips and heavily overestimate their average hourly pay. They are also the ones who gamble the most on scratch-offs, keno, etc.
Any server who drops out because of that will simply be replaced. Waiters and waitresses are constantly churning through restuarants in any case, so the impact on business ought to be minimal.
Certainly wouldn't say "never". It may be true in some places, but there's a successful gastropub in our town (open for one year now) which applies a uniform 20% service charge rather than asking for tips. It doesn't have any more or less difficulty getting staff than other nearby establishments.
You might argue that this is stupid, because it's a catch 22; unless everyone does it, you lose as a business if you do it; nothing motivates people more than raw dollar value and you'll either lose your staff or have to put prices up to pay them more.
...but, you look at Uber, and there's no tipping there; and it's great for the consumer, and (astonishingly) drivers seem fine with it, despite objectively being exploited blatantly and paid less than taxi drivers.
So, maybe there is something to be said for an all digital disruption to the food scene, somehow...
Honestly, I can't see how it would work though; you have to actually demonstrate that your new 'no tip' solution works somehow, not just armchair philosophize about some way to 'magically make tipping disappear?'
Sure, I'm just saying, it's clear you can make a business out of this sort of thing.
Whether it's profitable, that's another question, clearly.
Like I said, I can't imagine how it would work; but maybe there is some kind of like, 'you subscribe to a service, the service pays out 'tip equivalents', you don't have to tip' scheme that might make sense there somewhere.
Basically, it's not totally implausible there might actually be a business that solves the whole tipping thing somehow.
I think you were right about the catch 22 thing, which is the core problem that this article misses. Uber doesn't have tipping but don't you rate your rides in a way that can ultimately reduce the amount of work that driver gets? It has the punishment inverse of tipping.
This works perfectly well in Australia, where tipping is entirely optional and not necessarily expected - however can still be done, if you feel like it.
In the advent of tap based payments especially - which is now ubiquitous in Australia - and you just tap your phone / card / device to the terminal which already shows the bill, I'd say tipping happens mainly in higher end restaurants.
There's certainly no lack of restaurants in Melbourne - with plenty of people enjoying the vast array of options for eating out. I for one am happy to not have to worry about tipping on everyday meals, however on special occasions I will add say 5-10% if particularly pleased with the service.
This ! This is exactly the same in Denmark. Tips are included in the price, but it is still custom to tip if the service is good and you can afford it usually around 5%.
No, tips are not included in the price. I think you are confusing tips with salary. And tips in Denmark seldom tends to have any relation to the price of the meal.
Yes.. tips are technically included in the price since the waiters union made an agreement with the employers union that waiters salaries should be covered fully by the employer. And yes tips often has a relation to the price of the meal that again often has a relation to the level of service.. If you are just out of school or still studying then it might be different for you which makes the system even better since you are not expected to even tip and therefore pay what you feel like.
>Now what if we were to magically make tipping disappear? Think about the diner for a second. What if, by removing tips from your restaurant, you’ll actually end up delighting more guests, improving your food, and retaining employees?
Well, I've dined all over the world (not an American btw), and the US had the most friendly and alert waiting stuff, which I guess it's at least party because of the tipping.
Sure, in expensive restaurants all around the world you can get good service and waiters that always hover nearby. But in the US that's also true for the neighborhood diner.
Nah, it's more of a cultural thing. In the US, waitstaff is expected to be attentive and stop by constantly. In other countries, they're expected to leave you alone unless you need them, so you can enjoy your meal without being annoyed. For example, in many countries, they'll never approach you or bring you a check until you flag them down to ask.
I think it's less about tipping, and more about customs.
Totally agree with this; customers in different countries have different expectations.
Personally, when I've eaten in the US I've found the waiting staff to be annoying - I just want to be left alone to eat, not pestered with fake smiles and boring pleasantries because they want a tip.
That actually might explain the problem. I live in EU, at my local cafe place which is quite large ~40 tables I usually see 2 cooks, 1 barista and 3 servers even when its 90% full in the evening (1-2 servers in the morning or during day when its 50% full). Yes, wait times are quite long, usually takes good 20 minutes and you only interact with a server 3 times at most, when you make an order, they bring you food and when they bring you receipt.
I can see that to provide the level of service described, frequent checking in on tables etc you would need probably 5-6 servers so the costs would go up significantly.
Regarding customs, yes I definitely prefer servers to get me my food and get out of the way, and it is considered normal.
I mainly go out to eat to spend time with friends/colleagues and no to eat, so I guess in Europe cafe is mostly seen as a place to have a chat rather than eat.
I never saw waiters actually try and turn tables even when the place is full and there are some tables where people finished eating, paid for the food and just sit there chatting for a good hour. Yes it is considered rude to do that when place is full but it is more of cultural thing.
Speaking of restaurants (not "cafe's") i.e. where you actually have lunch or dinner, (which means normally at least two courses) the number of servers is function of the level of the place, it is more or less "coded".
The range goes from "bad" or "slow" service which is 1 server every 25 people to "excellent" or "fast/responsive" which is 1 server every 8 people.
You won't find 1/25 if not in really cheap places, nor 1/8 if not in really expensive ones, average is 1/12 to 1/16.
Leaving the table free after having eaten is exclusively cultural, no waiter will ever dare to tell you to free the table or bring you the bill if not asked for, with the rare exception of long time customers with which there is confidence, in which case the waiter may ask this as a personal favour, on the other hand any long time customer will notice that the place is full and leave the table free as soon as possible.
Good restaurants (and capable waiters) can understand from a number of signals if you are in just for a quick meal or if you are in for a meal at leisure and serve you accordingly.
Definitely cultural as the other guy said. When I visit the US I imagine I get much the same experience as you but instead of "friendly" and "alert" my description would be more "intrusive" and "transparently faking a level of happiness I only experience very infrequently and never while at work."
I am from the US and I couldn't agree more. The whole fake niceness is just so draining on you to put up with all the time, day in and day out. You aren't my friend, I am just trying to get through my day.
>The whole fake niceness is just so draining on you to put up with all the time, day in and day out. You aren't my friend, I am just trying to get through my day.
So, genuine unfriendliness (try France waiters) or rudeness (try a lot of Europe) is better?
And yes I'd prefer whatever you consider "rude" that happens Europe, as I've never experienced anything near what I would consider rude in Europe. I'm looking to eat dinner not get a lap dance.
Admittedly, I've never been to France specifically.
>but instead of "friendly" and "alert" my description would be more "intrusive" and "transparently faking a level of happiness I only experience very infrequently and never while at work."
I don't require genuine friendliness from waiters. Feigned friendliness and politeness will do just fine, since the purpose is to just get better service, not to make friends with the people at the restaurant.
Consensus says its not a problem. Europeans (as a group) don't consider that a "bug," its a "feature." Hence the cultural part. Going out to eat is seen as a time to relax and spend time with the company you choose to go out with rather than to be hustled by a stranger.
If you are looking for "better service" in Europe it seems you are looking in the wrong places. May I suggest a strip club instead?
I think this might come down to individual preference. Personally, I find the whole US dining experience rather uncomfortable. Because I come from a country without a tipping culture (Australia), I'm never sure if I'm tipping way too much, or way too little. So my meal always comes with a nice side-order of "paranoia that I'm committing a social faux pas".
I also hate the constant 'how is your meal going sir?' check-in; I just want to eat in peace without some poor guy feeling he has to do the whole fake-buddy routine every 5 minutes to earn his tip. But there seems to be no polite way to say "Hey, no need to constantly check on me, or be creepily friendly. I'm going to tip you anyway". It just feels so contrived.
Maybe I just have poor social skills or something...
Haha. Funny to read this as I have similar feeling most of the time, but the reason is that I almost never tip. I know I might be considered an a-hole, but I just cannot justify paying additional 10-20% for the "how's your meal" bs every time I go out to eat (and I go out a lot). If somebody agrees to be paid below the living wage it's not really my business and I think it's up to the owner and his staff to make these things straight.
Last year I have also visited Australia for the first time with my wife and we absolutely loved the fact on the contrary to other Western countries you are never expected to tip in there. From what I understand waiters get their reasonable salaries, the food is quite expensive, but if you see 38$ in the menu, you know you are going to leave 38$ on the table. Nobody has to waste their brain cycles thinking about how to tip the dudes. We live in EU and find EU and US tipping culture a major pain in the a.
My experience is a little less worldly. I live in the US, and I've visited Canada, Japan, and touristy parts of Mexico and the Carribean.
My experience is that the US, in general, came in last or tied with Mexico and the Carribean. I'm not talking bad service, just not as nice as Canada (second place) or Japan (first place).
Canadians tend to just be nice people (I've got relatives there, so I'm probably biased) and I think that's why it's got good service.
Japan has a culture of customer service that leads it to be the best, IMO. Anyone who has learned some Japanese and then visited Japan will have stories to tell you of how amazingly nice the clerks are and some of the odd situations you can get in because you don't know the culture. For instance: You aren't supposed to ask, "Do you have any (X)?" This is because they can't tell a customer "no". If you do this, they'll take you to the part of the store that would have the product, and then say something like, "It would be here if we had it."
Instead, you're supposed to say, "Do you not have (X)?" and then they can answer "Yes, we have none."
That isn't to say that people don't have bad experiences there. A co-worker of mine said she had a bad experience and found that clerks were rude to her. (She's very nice, so it wasn't her attitude or anything.) But in general, the stories I hear are of amazing levels of service.
From personal experience (just anecdotal) I would say service in the US is much better than for example in the Netherlands (my own country). I think you'll have to think of other things than service to make this happen.
Other options:
+ Start with clear signs to indicate for other businesses (cabs, hairdresser) that tips are not expected.
+ I will assume that you pay the 20% to your personnel anyway. So basically you offer a guilt-free paying experience. We will genuinely be happy by whatever you pay.
+ The international card. Communicate that you don't want that Americans are the only ones paying 20% more.
+ Build up a name as employer. Advertise with that.
+ Mix and match your service offerings with others, being a library, place to date, etc where tipping is less obvious.
+ Have people pay online before the meal. Subscriptions is also possible.
+ Uber-experience. Do not pay the restaurant directly, but have intermediate company taking care of it.
Service in Spain is also much better than The Netherlands, I'd say on par with US service.
I think Dutch service is just particularly bad, and tipping clearly doesn't explain the difference since Spanish service is so much better without the expectation of tipping.
Tipping is great because it provides the customer with some leverage to pay a price they feel is fair. Not to mention it allows many many many many people to live somewhat comfortably despite working in what would be considered a lowly occupation. We haven't even talked about how service workers are salesman and saleswomen who are provided the opportunity to be compensated more for greater achievement, and the business in turn as well.
It sounds like the people who dislike tipping are the same people who struggle to stand up for themselves to salespeople, and feel pressured to pay extra just to remove themselves from the social setting. I don't mean to be accusatory, but I believe it's likely this is a major motivating factor to dislike tipping despite the complete advantage it gives to you as a consumer.
I can and have walked out without tipping when the service was bad.
When I go out to eat, I do so to unwind. The implicit pressure to tip detracts from that experience and I dislike it. It is not a question of what I am capable of doing. It is about not having to deal with the unfairness of an average or a poor waiter demanding to be compensated.
You bring up a huge an often overlooked point. The owner makes the same amount of money if a customer chooses whether or not to tip. But stands to lose money if a customer is unable to afford the meal and ends up not coming in. In a business where every dime counts, it adds up.
Complete advantage? I've seen those dickwads, toying with the wait staff to make themselves feel like a big man.
How about disliking tipping because it's demeaning to everyone involved. People relying on my charity to make their rent, despite working a full time job. What kind of messed up system is this?
This essay left me confused - it starts by suggesting that tipping is bad, and that raising prices, possibly above the cost of tipping, will bring a net win. I was very curious to read about why.
But then the essay shifted to two seemingly unrelated reasons: (1) if you make the food delicious and the service great you can charge more, and (2) if you pay the kitchen staff more, you get less turnover/happier cooks. These last two don't support the central thesis - why does ending tipping help cooks get paid more? At the end of the day, fixing all other costs, cooks get paid more if servers get paid less, whether that's from ending tipping or increasing chef salary. And obviously making delicious food would be great, but what does that have to do with tipping? If you end tipping, suddenly everyone will try harder?
An article examining the effects of increasing chef pay at the expense of service pay would be very interesting to me. I would gladly sacrifice some professionalism in service for increased food quality, and I wonder if others would, too.
Tipping isn't a thing in Australia. I'm not sure I'd know the first thing for the right way to tip if I visited the US.
And yet we seem to enjoy high quality food, and I believe our hospitality wages are higher in general.
( perhaps this is all anecdotal, but tipping has never seemed to make sense to someone not in the mix of it )
Tipping is a thing in Australia, but it's not the pseudo-compulsary thing it is in the US. We do pay significantly higher hospitality wages here; nobody is going to starve if you don't tip, and nobody is going to hold it against you. However if you receive excellent service, it's customary to demonstrate your thanks with a bit extra on the bill, and it will be appreciated.
I think the title should say "Having an expected floor for tipping of 20% and tips of 30% for excellent service, is not a better incentive for good service than a floor of 0% and 10% for good service".
Removing (banning) tipping all together in a restaurant is doable, but as an owner you may want to ensure you have incentives left for employers (e.g. let customers anonymously rate the service after online bookings and hand out bonuses etc).
I prefer the normal system where staff is paid in full (so no part of their expected income is tips) and customers tip for good service. This is how it works in most of the world.
I agree with the author. Having lived in Japan for a number of years, where tipping isn't done, I can say that the dining experience is far superior. Servers don't have to feel like beggars and patrons don't have to feel like their being panhandled.
I also agree that nothing screams "I'm a sphincter!" quite like asking for a 20% tip on a muffin, or a cup of coffee. Unless you physically came to me, got my order, and brought my food to me, you don't deserve a damn tip.
Another thing that restaurant owners do that is deserving of a throat-punch is to confiscate tips and dole them out to other workers, or divvy them up evenly amongst the servers. When I give someone a tip, it is because they've done a good job, and I want to show THAT PERSON my gratitude. I'm not remotely interested in helping the restaurant owner make payroll. That's not what my tip is for.
Tipping sucks and it is grossly abused throughout the restaurant industry. I'd be happy to see it die a deserved death.
No offence, but how does physically coming to you and bringing your food justifies paying additional 10-20%? As mentioned above, I live in EU and almost never tip, because I cannot really understand this cultural thing. Why should I pay a special tip to sbd who brings my food and not clerks in a bakery or a garbage track drivers? I'm being serious here, I'm trying to understand why people do this. Is there any other reason than "the custom"?
The problem with no tipping, in my experince (especially in Europe), is that waiters aren't incentivized to turn tables. If you go to a popular spot for dinner that happens to be completely full and ask for a table, the waiter will usually shrug their shoulders and say 'Sorry, try again tomorrow.' Usually, there is no concept of a waiting list or a waiting time estimate, because diners are conditioned that they can spend 3 or 4 hours over a bottle of wine, and there would be no pressure to pay and leave, so waiters find it impossible to make any promises regarding when a table would free up. Additionally, the waitstaff won't be paid extra to make an effort and try to serve more tables on a given night (being on a fixed salaries), so they'll be quite leisurely about their business.
Of course, if you happen to be the one who got there early, and you like having 3-hour meals while chatting with your friends, it's the perfect arrangement, because nobody will pressure you to eat, pay, and leave in 30-40 mins as usually happens in the US.
> Of course, if you happen to be the one who got there early, and you like having 3-hour meals while chatting with your friends, it's the perfect arrangement, because nobody will pressure you to eat, pay, and leave in 30-40 mins as usually happens in the US.
If I'd like to be pressured to leave asap I would go to a fast food chain. So, this doesn't sound like a problem at all, more like a feature.
It is a nice feature unless you're on the other end of the deal, walking from one completely full restaurant to another looking for a table. In a sense, it's an inefficiency because a table may free up shortly after you leave, but the staff wouldn't care to predict that.
This is something I've also experienced during my travels to Europe, in particular in Paris. I will say I've found this to be a "feature", not a "bug". In addition, it's uncommon for the check to be presented without it first being asked for, whereas in the US, once you "pass" on desert, you're given a check.
I'd love to see a non-tipping culture organically rise up. I'd choose restaurants that pay a living wage for all full time employees, sans the need for tips. I know some restaurants have experimented with negative results, but I'd like to (maybe wishfully) believe that this can still take hold in the US.
I would imagine that the restaurant considers it closer to a bug than a feature because its tables are finite. Parties that come in looking for a table aren't necessarily going to be queued up, most will just go somewhere else.
Precisely that! But apart from the inability to predict table occupancy (for which you could theoretically come up with some ML solution), the other issue is that from a strict economic sense, having people occupy a table for 3 hours vs 1 hour while paying the same amount of money is a singificant opportunity cost to the business. In essence, from the perspective of the restaurant, people who are having a 3-hour meal and a long conversation are using a resource for which they're not paying, while other potentially paying customers are being turned away.
A nice side effect of the tipping culture in the US is that this inefficiency is eliminated. That's why I find it hard to believe that businesses will find it in their best interest to eliminate tips.
>A nice side effect of the tipping culture in the US is that this inefficiency is eliminated.
What you consider an "inefficiency" is part of a lifestyle in big parts of Europe. Going out to eat isn't just considered "calorie intake" that needs to be "as quick and efficient as possible", it's considered leisure and social time, especially in the southern parts of Europe like Greece, Italy or Spain.
It's also very seldom that people really manage to just drink one bottle of wine in 3 hours, usually it's bigger groups and they tend to drink a lot once they finished eating. Depending on how the restaurant prices their drinks the "3 hour drinking group" can end up making way more money for the restaurant than trying to shove 3 parties of "Just eat something with a small soda", into the same timeframe.
Precisely this, if anything, it's part of the experience you pay for. His suggestions of using ML for occupancy and optimizing for turnover would more likely ruin the restaurant. Luckily in business schools being aware of cultural differences is being taught more and more.
Yes, and some of us really appreciate this. I love long lunches and dinners. I hate visiting many US places and feeling rushed.
Sometimes I think American dining is about just food, rather than the whole experience of dining, which includes the conversation with friends and family.
If you go to a popular spot for dinner that happens to be completely full and ask for a table, the waiter will usually shrug their shoulders and say 'Sorry, try again tomorrow.'
Or better yet, when the waiter at a cafe says very politely, "Oh yes, sit anywhere!" when there isn't an empty chair in the place.
See, the problem is you aren't comparing to enough places. People don't typically sit around restaurants for three hours in Japan despite there being no tips. I'd say there are other cultural factors at play here -- European customers don't want to be rushed out and would dislike a restaurant that hurried them, tips or not.
Then this is a problem with management that doesn't care to offer a certain level of customer service. Management should make a policy and make things up front. If their staff can't carry out their expectations, then fire them and bring in new staff. It shouldn't be the customers that do a managers job.
Oh my god this guy is a freaking genius! He totally cracked the restaurant code!
> "Make your food delicious."
No shit? That could possibly make customers happy?
> "Next, consider cooking an art form."
Aha, okay...
> "Go ahead: Kill tips and list a fair price for your bowl of brisket pho, grilled lamb shawarma, or omakase."
Haha, okay... well if it's this easy... how could everyone get it so wrong? Damn!
---
FYI - I never felt uncomfortable to tip in a restaurant. I go even as far as that I don't dine in restaurants which have a no tip policy or where the tips go to the owner instead of the staff.
Also, restaurants already charge a fair price. It's one of the longest running industries and they do still pretty well, so clearly they already ask a "fair" price for their phos. The wage for a chef or other staff is not determined by the menu price but by the market rate. If you have more people who can cook than people who need a cook then it's a bit tough isn't it.
As a person who was born and living in a country which has no tipping culture.
The tipping sucks.
I should have been fully informed how much should I have to pay before I purchase something or some service.
Any extra demand from agreed amount should be illegal.
I also don't want to waste my precious time on paying the tip for calculating tax.
The worker's salary is a employer's responsibility.
If the the worker become underpaid without the tipping, then the worker is underpaid by the employer.
>The worker's salary is a employer's responsibility. If the the worker become underpaid without the tipping, then the worker is underpaid by the employer.
This! Tipping is nothing but the employer passing the buck and guilting the customer.
I find it very funny when people argue that increasing the minimum wage would increase costs for consumers (I don't necessarily disagree; in some cases it would, whether that is a bad thing is a different matter). I personally would pay a higher price, no tips and ensure that the workers serving can meet their basic needs via wages alone.
This is almost certainly going to rarely happen. Almost no server feels empowered enough to insist on this. And restaurant owners will start insisting on collecting and counting cash tips so they can fully account for the wages. No server wants their boss counting their cash tips. At least in Massachusetts, declared tips is self reported.
I'm surprised this is still allowed by the IRS. When I was a waiter back in the 80's in California, we went from self-reporting to turning in our tips. All the tips were pooled, then divvy'd up between waitstaff, busboys, cooks, managers etc. And taxes were taken documented. So our "paycheck" was puny since the withholding was taken from our hourly payrate.
I've even seen something very shady recently - a nice restaurant that added a mandatory 20% "service fee" to our party of 7, had fine print that said "60% of your service fee goes to your wait staff."
The implication is that not only is this restaurant, which we ended up paying ~$80 a person to eat dinner + wine + dessert at, screwing their customers with the mandatory service charge, they're also screwing their employees by keeping 40% of it for the owner. I won't eat there again...
I would be happy to learn that the 40% was going to the cooks. It's still a shady practice, and what makes it worse than not informing your guests ahead of time is that they're doing this in the name of "providing a livable wage for our staff." Pay your staff a livable salary and stop screwing your customers over...
Depending on the city and state, this could be illegal. I'd encourage you to ask the server if the 40% goes to the kitchen or the owner. If the latter, write a letter or make a call to your labour law enforcement group.
>A
compulsory
charge for service, for example, 15 percent of
the
bill, is not a
tip.
Such
charges
are part of
the
employer's
gross
receipts.
Sums distributed
to employees
from
service
charges
cannot
be
counted as
tips received,
but may
be used to satisfy
the
employer's
minimum wage
and
overtime obligations
under
the
FLSA.
If an
employee
receives
tips in
addition
to the
compulsory
service
charge,
those
tips may
be considered in determining
whether the
employee is
a tipped
employee and
in
the
application
of
the
tip
credit.
Hopefully the hostess and back of the house was tipped out with that 40%. It's also likely that 40% went into the owner's pocket though because that's totally legal! Since it was a non-negotiable service fee the DOL doesn't consider it gratuity (as gratuity is strictly optional) so they don't have to pass it on to their staff. I've seen this happen plenty of times, usually in the catering business, though not to the extent of 40%, usually around 5-10%.
I used to do accounting for a restaurant and I would disagree with you and say with the move to modern Point Of Sale software restaurants not doing this would be the exception now. We checked this every pay period to make sure servers were at or over the proper hourly wage because it is illegal to pay them less.
Florida based for reference, tips are self reported here too but our POS system would automatically transfer tip amounts when a credit card was the payment method. So our payroll system already has that amount. Then we had an electronic time clock where servers scanned their hand to clock in\out, and it was set to prompt them for declared cash tips. It was a nicer restaurant (avg check a bit over 100$). Occasionally a server wouldn't declare enough tips to hit minimum wage for a pay period and the first thing HR would do is check to make sure they were declaring cash tips. In 5 years working there I can't remember a single time a server was actually under minimum wage for a pay period, they just weren't declaring cash tips because CC tips usually covered it.
I have been out of hospitality for a few years but I am seeing even smaller places with POS systems run on Ipads. I would assume since we live in the future these have similar features to the ancient 'micros' brand POS system we used and could integrate with quickbooks or better accounting software to run payroll and do these calculations.
P.S. for any server (or employee anywhere for that matter) who thinks their company is doing something illegal you don't have to even talk to your manager/boss/owner, just call the Department of Labor they pay people to fix these problems for you.
That's at a nice restaurant though. It's more common than you think that there are restaurants just using paper tickets. I think Waffle House still does paper checks only and that's a huge chain. And most mom and pop restaurants too.
I've waitressed before and when I was a little short of minimum wage several times due to us being a slow/cheap restaurant the management just said "Some weeks you make more some you make less" and didn't try to correct it. I couldn't risk loosing my job. Sure, if they fired me for reporting them they'd be in trouble, but how long would it take for me to get justice and force them to pay? I wouldn't be able to eat while I waited for some kind of justice to be doled out.
That is an unfortunate position, and I doubt you are the only one to have experienced that. I was personally employed at a place that didn't pay overtime, that is why I was aware of the DOL as a tool. One of the other employees called to try to get an investigation going and shared it with us. The owners never knew.
IIRC, reporting lower-than-expected tips increases the probability of a tax audit, and required tip reporting for payroll and other tax purposes makes it not-that-hard for employee underreporting to be detected and established in the event of such an audit.
This idea of "making up the difference" comes up in every convo on tipping. The counter point is usually that it doesn't happen. (Debate ensues...)
But even if it happened FOR SURE EVERY TIME. What an inefficient system! Rather than just paying the minimum wage up front, with predictable, projectable costs, businesses spend person hours on calculating tips, hours worked, per employee, etc. And then have to pay (potentially) widely varying amounts at the end of the cycle.
I get that some customers and some servers like the practice of tipping. But why not require employers to pay (at least) the minimum wage, period. You could still tip if you want to, and an you can still try to earn a tip if you want to. But now it's more like a bonus, gravy, than the difference between rent and no-rent.
you can still try to earn a tip if you want to.
But now it's more like a bonus, gravy
Isn't that where we started? I don't think that's stable. If some people get tips, the next tier of goodish servers is going to think they deserve tips, until you end up where we are now.
You can start there and stay there. This does not escalate like you assume. The rest of the world works just fine with this system.
I suspect that the escalation in the US has something to do with employers getting greedy and trying to reduce wages to factor in tips. I don't have any evidence to back this up.
> Just an FYI, but if a tipped employee does not meet the minimum wage, the employer must make up the difference.
In most cases, they'll also be fired quickly if they don't, so they'll overreport tips to "make" the minimum wage even if they don't actually receive enough.
Whether or not tipping should exist, if it does, it shouldn't substitute for the minimum wage, it should be entirely on top of it.
Add mental strain of thinking should I and how much should I tip. Also hassle if you don't happen to have change readily available. Sometimes it's just easier to go to a place where you don't have to think this.
I'm not a native speaker so 'mental strain' might be a bit overblown expression for this. I'm also from a culture where tipping is not common so for me it's also a cultural difference to deal with.
The seller(who is the employer) offered a product with the price they choose. That price should reflect all the necessary costs of the product, including the salary to the workers.
By demanding the tipping, they make the price cheaper than it actually is.
Omitting tipping and taxes from prices is deceitful and annoying, but it promotes consumerism and getting people to spend more.
The key for restaurants is to minimize the menu item price when you decide what to order. Even if you have a mental limit of $15, you might spend $17.55 on lunch because the menu said $14 when you ordered.
It's good for extracting money from restaurant patrons :p
As for humanity, imo capitalism is the wrong model if we want to optimize for global happiness. Directionally, basic income seems better, though I'm sure the devil is in the details...
I don't have strong opinions on tipping either way. Personally, I prefer a culture where tips are an optional extra in culture. You do it when pleasantly surprised. That's nothing more than an "i like it this way" though.
That said, who says "the worker's salary is a employer's responsibility?"
Monetary culture is ancient and emergent. It's culture. Complicated, organic, varied and local. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't want to change it if it's bad or impractical. But, is a culture of tipping bad.
I like that this article is culturally focused. Wage disparities, the social outcomes of these etc.
I think when you get out of the food service industry (at least in the U.S.) tipping is more fluid. A tour guide or a ski instructor for example, while I would say tips are customary the "rules" are much less codified so it's largely more in the category of optional
I live in Greece, and it is an optional extra here.
If you pay with a card, a lot of times there is a menu on the POS which you choose a percentage for tipping, which ranges from 0% upto I dont remember how much (but a lot).
Personally I always give a generous tip, (unless the server intentionally does something bad), just because it feels good to. It is not charity or pity for low wage. It is just that I would welcome a tip too if I were in the waiter's shoes, no matter how much my wage would be.
In Germany it's somewhat "optional", as the tip is supposed to represent how happy you've been with the service and there's legislature in place that specifically states that tips are not supposed to be part of the wage. But that also depends on the service you are using.
A small tip can also go a long way of making you a preferred customer: At my favorite Thai place I sometimes round up what I pay by 50 cent, in return I get a free serving of spring rolls (worth 2,50€) with every order, making the 50 cent investment a rather good deal ;)
Spain. It is common to "round it off" as a tip around here, but not mandatory in any way. Examples:
You get a beer somewhere, it's 1.75€ and you round it off to 2€. That's a reasonable tip that says "service has been fine, thanks.".
You get dinner somewhere, it's 57.25€ and you round it to 60€. Same thing as above.
You get dinner somewhere, it's 57.25€ and you pay exactly that amount. The message is "the price was fair enough for what I got". Nobody will look badly at you.
You get dinner somewhere, it's 57.25€ and you pay 70€. The message is "you have been wonderful hosts, thank you VERY much".
Also, tips are not just for the service, but for the entire experience. You tip if you want to compliment the service, but also/alternatively because you want to compliment the food, or the ambient, or whatever.
Yes, it's anywhere outside of strong US ties.
In New Zealand you'll get chased down the street by the honest waiter telling you that you've forgotten your change.
As others have pointed out in this thread, many other countries have wonderful systems in place that work without mandatory tipping.
No disrespect intended, but like with things such as gun control laws and plastic currency in different colors materials and sizes (two examples of things implemented on a wide scale in other countries with NO adverse effect), I am always bemused when US based people keep insisting that it will never work there.
>> That said, who says "the worker's salary is a employer's responsibility?"
Why would it not be? The employer pays the employee for their labor. The exception is with tipping, in which the employer passes most of the paying responsibility to the customer.
I don't have strong opinions on tipping either way. Personally, I prefer a culture where tips are an optional extra in culture. You do it when pleasantly surprised. That's nothing more than an "i like it this way" though.
That said, who says "the worker's salary is a employer's responsibility?"
Monetary culture is ancient and emergent. It's culture. Complicated, organic, varied and local. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't want to change it if it's bad or impractical. But, is a culture of tipping bad.
I like that this article is culturally focused. Wage disparities, the social outcomes of these etc.
>> I also don't want to waste my precious time on paying the tip for calculating tax.
20% is an easy calculation. Move the decimal point over one, and double. $24.30 becomes $2.43, doubled you get $4.86 which is your tip. Round it up to $5 if you want. Did you really enjoy the service? Add another $2 or $3. Terrible waiter? Subtract $2 or $3.
A percentage-based tip scales with the prices on the menu, which are closely associated with the cost of living in a particular area. A 15% tip is exactly as appropriate in 2016 as it was in 1916. It works as well in Florence, Alabama, as it does in Baltimore, Maryland.
The only reason to increase the percentage of table service tips is if the restaurant employee does more for the customer. I have not observed this to be the case in the last decade, in larger cities or out of them.
As logical as that might sound the tipping percentage is a matter of cultural norm and not about maintaining a status quo. In metropolitan areas 20% has long since been the standard and is arguably increasing. The rest of the country has been steadily catching up.
There is considerable upward pressure on that, with many recommending an 18% or 20% norm (and restaurants themselves are actively part of this with the tip hints they provide on bills.)
And retail stores are now putting Christmas holiday items on sale before Halloween. At some point, you have to plant your feet, grit your teeth, and hold the m-f-ing line.
You can recommend 25% of the total if you want. Heck, recommend 40%. But as long as the restaurant business continues to operate with respect to employee pay in the same fashion that is has for decades, I will continue to consider 15% of the pre-tax total to be a reasonable tip for median-quality restaurant table service. If that ever becomes such a bad tip that servers can't be arsed to work for it, I guess I can pay higher percentages with proportionally higher service expectations. If you want me to tip 25%, you can bet your ass that if I so much as order a burger, I will be asking my server what the cow was named, how old it was at slaughter, and to identify the stockyard where it was finished. (Note: My grandfather actually asked one of those questions. At a diner.)
Of course, according to my brother-in-law, mine is "the most stubborn family that has ever lived". Recommending 18% on my bill is a great motivation for me to calculate exactly 15%, to the penny, instead of estimating and using the ceiling function to the next whole dollar. People like me are just one of the many reasons why tips are not now 80% or more of your bill, and why you can't yet buy Christmas decorations in the seasonal aisle of your local retailer on Memorial Day. You're welcome.~
As an American, I have always written both the tip and the total on the slip. Until this moment, I have never actually considered only writing one or the other.
I probably will continue to write both as I'm a little paranoid about people making changes to the values before they get put into the machine, and having to change 2 lines is harder than 1.
In most cases the service you get is merely a function of how well managed the place is that's it. I believe that it's somewhat unfair to withhold an employee's salary because their management is dysfunctional. Even if they were downright lazy they still work somewhere where they are allowed to be downright lazy.
I say this as someone who has worked for both very dysfunctional management as well as very functional, process oriented management. The difference between how well customers were served was like night and day. Some issues that contributed to the dysfunction was lack of training and lack of feedback.
Also, in many places tips are pooled, every single person I know who was a tipped employee was part of a tip pool, so you probably taking away salary from an amazing server in the process. Sometimes back of the house is tipped out a small percentage as well.
Restaurant service is, above all, a team effort, so basically tipping is super unfair no matter how you slice it.
My brother-in-law is a waiter and his work complaints echoed this. At his current employer they pool tips, but mgmt has overstaffed for nights that are traditionally slow. That means easier work, but also less money.
In places where they don't pool the direct wait staff might still need to give a cut to others. It was explained to me that the busboys will sandbag you if they feel cheated, and then good luck turning over tables in your section when they haven't been cleared.
>mgmt has overstaffed for nights that are traditionally slow
Of course management doesn't have an incentive not to over staff because they aren't paying the employees hardly anything anyways. Add that with employees bribing^H^H^H^H^H^H^Htipping other employees and, wow, what a dysfunctional system.
I'd imagine bartenders would pretty much always be required to pool tips with each other since whenever there's more than one working they always work in a team.
Why is it my responsibility to do performance reviews of restaurant employees? The management already forced me into a performance rating system through tips, I shouldn't have to sit down with the manager to do a detailed performance review too. Besides, if the food and service was so bad that it warranted a $0 tip, I'm probably not coming back.
For one thing they have no idea if you have a legitimate complaint, are someone who has such high standards that it's not worth catering to, or simply a cheap bastard. They care strongly about the former, will shake their head at the middle and will dislike you if it were the latter.
If you actually speak up they'll have a better idea.
My point was that if the service was bad enough to not leave a tip, complaining to the manager might result in you not paying for the food, either.
You can demand that the bill be discounted or waived entirely (or that what you paid be refunded) if you didn't get what you were expecting. For instance, if you walk out of a movie because the sound was a half second out of sync and the picture was out of focus, you could just eat the price of the ticket, or you could find a manager and get your money back for the low, low cost of just voicing what was wrong with your experience.
What else would you do? Angrily write a bad Yelp review in your car?
I don't care about getting comp'ed food (unless the order was obviously wrong and I was over charged), that's not going to make up for the 2 hours of wasted time. I'm not going to spend another 15 minutes waiting to talk to a manager while I "demand" that the bill be discounted or waived.
Fortunately, I live in an area where there is no end of new restaurants to explore, if I have bad service at one, then I just won't go back there. Problem solved (for me).
For the record, I've never tipped 0% (but have tipped only 10% for particularly bad service).
Worse still, tipping is merely a way of keeping class hierarchies, and it's disgusting.
When a person walks into a restaurant in the USA they can waive a $20 bill at a waitperson and say if you do what I want, and if I like you, and if I'm feeling generous, I might give you some of this.
Of course, they might not too.
Labor laws, minimum wage, etc are all there to make this illegal in a work contract, and it should be illegal for tipping too because it's gross.
> When a person walks into a restaurant in the USA they can waive a $20 bill at a waitperson and say if you do what I want, and if I like you, and if I'm feeling generous, I might give you some of this.
So you also dislike bonuses for white collar professionals?
No, because unlike a bonus, tips make up a significant portion of waitstaff's regular income. If they don't get their tips then maybe they don't make rent.
It's a completely different situation than bonuses on top of a salary that already covers living expenses.
> No, because unlike a bonus, tips make up a significant portion of waitstaff's regular income.
Bonus makes up a significant portion of my regular income. I'm sure that's true for many other HN readers.
> It's a completely different situation than bonuses on top of a salary that already covers living expense.
In many cases, salary does not cover living expenses. In some instances bonuses can be 10x annual salary or more. Even if bonus is only 3x annual salary, you wouldn't say that salary covers living expenses as few people live on only 25% of their income.
I'm including things like annual equity vesting in bonus. This is not uncommon for senior individual contributor positions in high paying tech and finance companies. It's also not uncommon for sales and senior management roles in all industries.
It depends on what you were able to negotiate. You might have a guaranteed bonus in your first year, but you might rely on your employer's generosity in future years. In some cases, the bonuses may be based on certain targets, but those targets can become impossible to meet if your employer changes certain aspects of your situation.
Even in the very unlikely event that you have an airtight contract, there are instances where the employer simply will not pay you. Legal action might be the only recourse in this situation. Sometimes you are required to go through arbitration and sometimes you have to sue.
Can you teach me how this tax avoidance works? It seems that I am missing out. Can you also specify the jurisdiction where this works?
> mostly part of their contract
I can think of many people whose bonuses are 3x or more their salary and who do not have a guaranteed minimum bonus or even a strict formula based bonus.
This only affects the withholding of bonuses (the amount the IRS has you pre-pay as an estimate of taxes.) It does not affect the actual income tax on bonuses.
(It's mostly a disadvantage. I get about 60-70% of my income in bonus and stock which is treated the same; it just means that, if I don't plan ahead for it, I end up with a surprise tax bill on April 15th. I do plan ahead, but the whole process is obnoxious.)
There are plenty of games you can play with withholdings. EX: As long as you witholdings are enough to pay last years taxes or 90% of this years you are good.
Or if your bonus is in January you can have a higher witholdings from salary and the default 25% from the bonus. Just balance it by the end of the year.
But that's just simple stuff, there are also other benefits to the company.
> At most companies, how you get a bonus and how much it is is very clearly defined, and so in that regard, it's not similar to tipping at all.
I'm surprised that this has been your experience. In many cases, even cases where bonus is 3x annual salary, the bonus is "discretionary" and little is clearly defined.
I worked in finance sales for about 3 years. Bonuses are fun but I have seen a lot of misconduct in the pursuit of a bonus. Maybe its just banking...
I'm all for the no tipping and i happily work without a bonus. And i would expect other to as well. If you can't show up and be consistent in performance without a carrot then thats maybe not a great reflection of how you work and what you value.
My values at work are to get paid. I think that's why most people work instead of doing their hobbies all day. The carrot is payment. Nothing wrong with that.
Is your bonus based on predefined criteria? Do you negotiate it ahead of working, or after the fact? Does your skin colour, sex, how you dress affect your bonus?
> Bonuses are fun but I have seen a lot of misconduct in the pursuit of a bonus. Maybe its just banking...
It's not just banking. I was horrified at some of the behavior I saw from the sales folks at a software start-up I worked for (including the CEO). As a sales lifer, our CEO came up with some pretty generous comp packages for the sales team that promoted bad behavior and short-term "wins" that the rest of us would be cleaning up for months.
As someone who relies on a bonus the way that waiters rely on tips, I dislike bonuses very much.
It's possible that they're unavoidable given the volatile nature of business revenues and perhaps a system with no bonuses would result in lower total compensation.
It's not really the same thing unless you're thinking of a different bonus than I am. The bonuses I get are typically a couple times a year after a long slog through a difficult or time sensitive part of a project.
A server gets their tips probably about once an hour or so and the amount from one customer may differ with essentially the same service for another customer. Esentially random and arbitrary.
A bonus is paid to you by your company (evaluated by your boss) and is more like profit sharing.
A tip is paid directly by the customer. The customer has no way of knowing if you are being paid a living wage or not. They have different incentives if they are a regular or not. The waiter at a busy restaurant will see hundreds of customers a day, but the customer may only interact with this waiter once. The waiter understands the house systems and knows how to maximize tipping. These are all ways that the waiter has an information advantage and can wield it against the customer. Maximizing tipping and providing good service to everyone are seldom the same thing.
People like to think that tipping puts the customer in power but it really just sets up the customer to be gamed. This aspect doesn't exist when we're talking about bonuses with your employer.
Abolish restaurants. Might be interesting to you to give it a chance.
I was thinking the other day that the 1800 world of servants living upstairs/downstairs has been replaced by privatised slaves who have no job security, no guarantee of lodging and nothing other than temporary masters. The situation we have right now is demeaning, these people have little choice.
No doubt someone will tell me if we kill these businesses people will have no jobs, but I want a more radical reform than this.
Honestly not trying to be rude, but is this satire?
The job is demeaning because it's made to be so. Cooking in and of itself isn't demeaning. I love to bake. I don't love to bake and be treated like crap and get paid like crap and have no financial security.
I too love to cook. For myself in my time. I keep the surplus value I create and enjoy it. In the past when working in a cafe I've not enjoyed being ordered about by people who know I cannot afford to answer back.
Okay, thanks I wasn't sure if it was satire, because some people say an extreme thing to make a point.
Well a lot of that comes from tipping culture and low pay. Like you need to lick my shoe in order to get your $3 tip. It's a power dynamic-- you're reliant on their money, so you're lower than them. And society looks down on restaurant workers in general as lazy people. People's views on restaurant workers needs to change.
I've waitressed before too. I knew people who liked their job most of the time, you get to be around people, you get the satisfaction of someone enjoying a good meal you've made and being happy about it. Some people prefer physical work. I don't think the job itself "has" to be eradicated. But of course no one likes the people treat you like crap or the awful pay.
Yes I wouldn't say every minute of my time in a cafe was bad. I enjoyed producing, adding value etc. The tips didn't really come into it much for me because my base wage was enough. It wasn't going to make or break my week.
The power dynamic comes from creating a system where people are forced to work to meet their largest expense: rent.
For me I'm thinking of "the service industry", the lower end. Here employees are low-skill, therefore at the mercy of employers who can swap them out for a less testy serf if required.
Those further up the value chain have more of a give-and-take relationship with their employer, the supply/demand curve is more in the favour of the employee. The employee has better savings and is not facing missing next week's rent if they are fired. A very different dynamic.
It is a different dynamic. The minimum wage needs to be up, but I wouldn't go from saying that to "shut down all restaurants".
Not sure about what could be done about supply/demand. They are low skill jobs. Most people could learn to do them pretty quickly. That doesn't mean they don't deserve to be paid properly-- the current economy is creating those jobs, we still need service people. They are working hard. But as far as supply/demand goes, I think there would always be a surplus of people who have the ability to do those jobs.
Well as I stated in the same column where I provide the link, I've not read it, I doubt you have in this time either.
That said, the system creates these imbalances so I would not look to simply treat the symptom.
Progress depends on a deficit of cheap labour to encourage automation. Globalisation has seen companies move manual low-skill jobs to other countries. Meanwhile land prices are up and so are rents. People must take what they can get whilst the usurers run rampant.
Tipping is supposed to be for exceptional service.
For example, if the wait person takes your order and brings your food and nothing more I wouldn't tip.
If they do the above and keep your water glass filled constantly without need to ask, if your meal, drink orders and dessert come out promptly and correctly, if they ask if everything is ok throuought the meal at appropriate times, etc I would tip.
Getting good service is starting to get hard to find. Some waitstaff are really good some hate their job and really don't care about the experience you have at the establishment you are in. It's just a job.
Also I've worked in kitchens, I know what douche nozzles customers can be. That's when you can see who your best wait staff is. During times they have to deal with them.
>> "If they do the above and keep your water glass filled constantly without need to ask, if your meal, drink orders and dessert come out promptly and correctly
This shouldn't be considered exceptional. It's what I'm paying for and should not require tipping.
>> if they ask if everything is ok throuought the meal at appropriate times
I understand you included 'appropriate' but this is honestly the thing that irritates me most about tipping culture. When I visit the US the barrage of 'how is everything etc.' throughout every meal drives me insane. Leave me alone to enjoy the food and conversation, stop interrupting it.
It's hard to do the latter. When is the appropriate time to intervene to ask if everything is ok?
But I can't tell you how many times I've not had a fork, or needed a drink and my waitperson never came to ask if I needed anything. The frustration can go both ways.
> When is the appropriate time to intervene to ask if everything is ok?
Where I grew up (The Netherlands) this simply does not exist. If you need something you ask the waiter and only then they'll come to you. Likewise for the check, the check only comes when you ask for it. It is considered extremely rude to get the check before you've asked for it.
Of course, after living in the US for 5 years I've become accustomed to all kinds of weird things (like the insistence of having salad before the entree, and entree not being an appetizer, simply blows my mind).
>> "When is the appropriate time to intervene to ask if everything is ok?"
When the meal is finished. If there's a real problem all it takes is for me to catch the eye of one of the many weight staff walking around and raise my hand and they'll come over.
I bartended for a couple years (and waiting tables was a part of that). it's actually pretty easy. After their food comes out, ask if they need anything else. If you see an empty glass, ask if they want a refill. Otherwise, just drift by occasionally and pay attention to the table. If they need you, they'll be looking to make eye contact / flag you down as you walk by and you won't need to say anything if they don't want you. Basically just don't be one of those servers that stands at the wait-station or bar, playing with your phone or socializing with co-workers without paying attention.
In my opinion, absent of delivering food, asking if people want refills, or addressing an obvious problem, you really shouldn't be interrupting people. The end result is good service without being annoying.
I don't think so. At least for me, I tip because I've worked in a kitchen. I've worked with waitstaff. I know how hard that job can be. If you are happy, and do a good job with me I would feel guilty not paying you a tip because your normal wage is shit and it's almost impossible to live on. So if I can tip you $15 bucks raising your hourly to at least $22/hr or so I feel good for helping that person being able to live. It's voluntary. Its cash. I expect you to pocket it and not pay tax on it. But that's your call.
> if your meal, drink orders and dessert come out promptly and correctly, if they ask if everything is ok throuought the meal at appropriate times, etc I would tip.
And yet fully half of those things are beyond the control of the person you're tipping for it.
If manager or owner hoses the servers and doesn't staff appropriately then they aren't going to be able to "ask if everything is ok throuought the meal at appropriate times" and it wouldn't be their fault. Nobody can do the impossible. It's like personally blaming the cashier when the line is long.
I'd also start it earlier with training. If someone isn't trained for the job they are doing and never get any feedback from management, is it really their fault if they do it wrong? (I say this as someone who worked somewhere where training was more or less "yeah, go figure it out" so I have a lot of empathy)
I wrote on HN a while ago about my experience waiting (at least) a half hour to pick up a site-to-store order at Walmart when there was literary no customers. I never personally blamed the staff for it though because I could see the dysfunction in the system they were given to work with (and I could see the physical discomfort the staff was in dealing with it).
Tipping is supposed to be for exceptional service.
For example, if the wait person takes your order and brings your food and nothing more I wouldn't tip.
If they do the above and keep your water glass filled constantly without need to ask, if your meal, drink orders and dessert come out promptly and correctly, if they ask if everything is ok throuought the meal at appropriate times, etc I would tip.
Getting good service is starting to get hard to find. Some waitstaff are really good some hate their job and really don't care about the experience you have at the establishment you are in. It's just a job.
Also I've worked in kitchens, I know what douche nozzles customers can be. That's when you can see who your best wait staff is. During times they have to deal with them.
Reading George Orwell's Homage to Catalunya, where Barcelona was an Anarchist state for a while, he points out that tipping was banned. He also says that despite many problems the anarchist state "seemed like something worth fighting for".
Some online services (e.g. Doordash) which ask you to pay a tip upfront even before the service irrespective of the quality. And, the default option is pre-selected to 15% of the cost on the checkout page. This after a specified delivery charge, and some "fees" bundled along with taxes etc.
And I read articles about how companies like Doordash are not making profits and are riding on VC money. It is just passing the buck onto the customers to keep their uneconomical business models afloat.
> The worker's salary is a employer's responsibility. If the the worker become underpaid without the tipping, then the worker is underpaid by the employer.
The thing about tipping, though, is that even if the employee were "fairly" compensated, they could still be "underpaid". This of course is only in the case where the tip is after the service.
What I mean by this, is when the tip is after the service, if the person is tipping fairly (or tips at all - some of these buggers just don't tip!), they will tip based on the level and quality of the service. That is what a tip is for.
If the person goes above and beyond their customer's wants and desires, and does so regularly (if the customer is a regular), those tips can be (and should be) a fairly large percentage. For instance, when I tip - if I get adequate service, I'll do 20%. But if I get better service, my tip rate will go up; I have done well over 100% at times when the service was worth it.
Now, I know that's an anomaly on my part - but going over 20% shouldn't be unexpected, if the service is worth it. It should also go the other way, of course (poor service -> less of a tip). It should serve as feedback to the employee as to how customers view their service, and how to improve it.
If the person does their job correctly (and makes an effort to go above and beyond customer's needs), and people tip properly (always an issue in today's world), then the employee can easily make well more in a day than what they would get being "paid fairly" by their employer without any tips.
However, today there are multiple problems: First, in so many cases, employees don't go "above and beyond" and so don't see the proper sized tips. But there is the other issue of people not tipping or tipping poorly - and so we have a feedback loop to the bottom. I'm not sure what has caused this, because I know it didn't use to be this way here in America.
For instance, my wife works in a service industry job. Recently, she had to cater to the desires of a customer, ultimately going well outside the parameters of her job and position to make this customer happy (I won't go into much detail - but it was room service with a multiple course meal, in a hotel chain that doesn't provide this service, for a family of four). Despite preparing and delivering enough food to feed a small army, doing so with a smile and a wave, and going out of her way to do this (while staying late on her shift) - she received zero tip from these people. These are long-term guests of her employer, too (they've been there longer than she has worked there); they have never been treated unfairly by her.
It's an unfortunate consequence of our system and society, and perhaps cultural - for some reason, many see service workers as "beneath them" or something, and refuse to tip. In other cases (like your's), there are other cultural conditionings from that side that makes tipping seem unnatural or foreign in some manner. All of this ultimately feeds into these employees doing a worse job than they might otherwise, again leading to a negative feedback loop.
That said - everywhere my wife has worked, after she has worked there for a limited amount of time, the customer satisfaction scores for her area have increased; she does receive accolades and positive response from staff, guests, and her employers. People write glowing positive Yelp and other reviews mentioning her, and how her attitude and assistance made their experience extremely enjoyable. Furthermore, when she has left positions (for one reason or another), those scores drop like a rock (she follows them afterward sometimes), and customers generally follow her to her new employer - her service is that good.
I shit you not, she has groupies.
And she generally makes good tips. At least from those who understand what tipping is about and for.
When I made a similar argument in similar discussion on Reddit, I was instantly labeled the worst and the most vile person ever for not appreciating daily struggles of poor waiters
The obvious way to get rid of the tipping culture is to not give them, or give as much as you the customer believe it is worth (rather than a standard 15 / 20%).
Doing this it will be the waiting staff that suffer rather than the restaurant owners, who you are trying to pass the message to.
Went to an Indian restaurant in NY, the waiter was awful not just bad but an asshole, we left without tipping and the manager ran after us telling us we had to tip or he would call the cops.
How about you pay your damn employee or fire him for being incompetent?
Tipping itself should not be illegal, it is mine evaluation and almost personal relationships with service guy/girl. If you're okay with standard cold service, just do not tip.
I lean toward agreeing with this article, however laws would probably have to change in order for it to work. Raising prices, say by 20%, and passing that money directly to servers is fine IMO. That would not only eliminate tipping, but really invest employees in the success of the restaurant. Further, the restaurant could decide the "tip" portion of the price on expensive alcohol as well, eliminating the ridiculousness of calculating the tip for the food and alcohol separately (many people don't tip the full 15-20% on very expensive bottles of wine, for example).
Where this falls down is that tax would then be charged on the raised prices, meaning we're now paying a tax on the "tip". I think many people would find that hard to swallow. So it's a good idea, but local and state tax laws would have to change.
Having lived in Japan for a long time, I kind of dread visiting America because of the whole nonsense of tipping (and lot of other reasons, really). There's simply no concept of it here and yet the service is excellent. I don't know what the typical wage is but I know people who work in service jobs and seem to have a lot more disposable income than their counterparts in the US.
I also know people who work as servers and bartenders in the US and (predictably) they hate the idea of ending tipping even if it means a higher base wage. I suspect they're wrong but then I don't have to walk in their shoes.
I've worked as both a server and a delivery driver, and even after having left both jobs I'd still be in favor of tipping because I think it incentivizes the worker to do well at their job. The US simply doesn't have the same culture Japan has.
That said, travelling to the US shouldn't be handicapped by a fear of tipping. Don't tip, or do, but not going because of it is an unfortunate choice.
The US simply doesn't have the same culture Japan has.
While this is true, it also sounds as an excuse not to improve. It is clearly time for the culture of United States to change, and not just change, but strive to change for the better. Punting won't do that.
There is too much punting going on everywhere, which is one of the reasons the world now finds itself in the problems it finds itself in. Please help stop the vicious downward spiral. Not punting on problems is a low hanging fruit.
I don't think it does. Tipping is expected even if a bad service is being provided. I live in a country where you have to give tips everywhere and everywhere the service is awful. Why not be fair and pay the employee well (and also pay taxes for that amount).
edit: I was thinking about how to award good employees and I think it's simple: give a small paper form at the end, where people will provide ratings for the service provided. Not all of them will fill them, of course, but I think you will get some feedback about who are your best employees and who are the worst. Also, regarding tips, how do they help the kitchen staff (in the restaurants, you can find other examples on other businesses)? That sistem isn't fair.
The difference between bad service and good service might only be 15% vs 20% and IME most American's do not tip punitively anyway, and tip the same no matter what.
The employer is in a much better position to assess staff performance than customers... And it's not the customers job.
If a waiter sucks they won't fire themselves just because they're only getting 15% tips.
>The employer is in a much better position to assess staff performance than customers... And it's not the customers job.
I disagree, after all it's the waiter who interacts with the customer most, while the employer mostly can only watch from afar or has other (better) things to do.
In that regard a 5% difference on the tip won't do much at all. If the waiter expects to get tipped anyway, regardless of how bad the service was, then he's far more likely to give bad service and just get 5% less tip.
But if getting any tip at all depends on the quality of service, then waiters at least have to try to deliver some decent service, instead of just doing an half-arsed job and getting their "guaranteed", although somewhat smaller, tip.
If the manager can't tell that the customers are having a bad time they have no business running a restaurant. IME in the best places the manager comes to the table at the end (after entree is served or pre-bill) and ask whether you're having a good time / experience / meal / etc.
At any rate, I've not heard of tips being collated by the manager, and the employees with the smallest tips fired/disciplined... but perhaps it does happen? Unless that's the case IMO customers aren't assessing performance in a meaningful way.
> But if getting any tip at all depends on the quality of service
In the US it does not, service has to be DIRE to get 0.
You think the manager has better things to do than observe their employee's performance? Isn't managing personnel just as important as managing, say, inventory? Isn't the manager's job to make sure the customer is well served?
The manager, for example, can observe if the employee is the problem or the customer. I've observed customers (from the outside) fly off the handle for no reason whatsoever. An employee shouldn't be paid less because the person they are serving is awful. They also shouldn't be paid less because the back of the house is short staffed so the food took an hour to be cooked, because people will tip less for that reason.
Also there's the people who believe "good service" means being served by a young attractive woman who smiles at you.
I'd like to know what good service means to other people. Good service to me is you take my order and bring me what I ordered.
While tipping is not an enormous driver of service quality (primarily for the reason you mentioned—that tips are expected even when service is poor), it does appear to be correlated with better service to some degree.
> I'd still be in favor of tipping because I think it incentivizes the worker to do well at their job
Not in my experience. For instance, I've seen cab drivers expecting a 20% tip to be added by default regardless of the quality of service, courtesy and help (if any). It feels terrible to be asked to pay 120% (in total) for mediocre or even lousy service.
A very aggressive taxi driver (it was one up from a regular taxi, but don't recall what) drove my Gran and me from SFO to SF, the drive was TERRIFYING, would have been 1* on Uber. Yet he angrily demanded a 25% tip, he didn't get it. Fuck that guy.
I'm in Australia, and we don't have a mandatory tipping culture, but we do still have optional tipping.
I've tipped extra on those occasions where the service has been exceptional and above the call of duty. But I don't like to feel pressured to tip when someone is just "phoning it in".
it incentivizes the worker to do well at their job
However, tipping only exists in certain jobs, and apparently people who do other jobs do them just fine in the US. So tipping doesn't seem to be necessary.
By the way, I also think the tipping issue is a significant annoyance when going to the US. I love visiting the US and definitely it's not a reason for not going (and I don't think the GP meant that either), but probably my most uncomfortable moments there (excluding when I was detained at customs, I think due to having the same name as a criminal) have been when I got disapproving or even downright angry looks for (unintentionally) not giving the expected tip due to not knowing all the details of customs by state, restaurant type, etc.
I should clarify, there are a lot of reasons I don't like going back to the US and tipping is just one small part of it. It would be off topic to go into them here but, obviously, a dislike of tipping culture is hardly a reason to move to a different country and never return.
The USA is very much about what's in it for me? One has to be paid extra, explicitly (apparently), to do one's job well, paid to give good service, paid to be nice (?).
Is it necessary to have a direct tip for doing those things? In a different culture, those are things your salary pays for.
>it incentivizes the worker to do well at their job
The entire point of being a server is to offer the customer a pleasant dining experience.. that is literally the major job qualification in customer service. Are you saying that people that work in retail aren't incentivized to do their job because they don't receive tips. I think its absurd, because if you ever work retail, you take much more crap from customers on top of working just as hard.
The wages for waiter are not very high, when I was a student there (12 years ago) I was paid 720 yens per hour (not in Tokyo though, I imagine wages there are higher). I think the reason people here tend to have more disposable income is that a lot of people live with their parents and the fact that the cost of life is not as high as in the US.
I do agree with you though, I dislike tipping and I find the service in Japan without tipping to be better than the service in US with tipping. For waiters in the US, from what I've seen so far they are overpaid compared to the kitchen staff in restaurants because tips are not distributed fairly (and by law in some states, the kitchen staff cannot get a percentage of the tip). In Japan, it's the contrary, the kitchen staff would tend to be better paid (and more respected) than the waiters.
I used to wait tables. They hate the idea of ending tipping because servers almost without exception make much, much more than any of the kitchen staff. Eliminating ripping and raising the base wage would almost always be a pay cut. I worked at a buffet, not anything fancy, and it was easy to make $20/hr. No employer was going to pay that for the work I did.
Not only does the employer NOT want to pay that much to their employees, tipping encourages waitstaff to turn tables faster, increasing both the restaurant's bottom line, and the number of tips.
Federal law and that of some states allows a lower minimum wage for tipped employees. [1] So the financial delta for the restaurant may be bigger than that described.
I used to hate tipping but now I love it. I spend >100 nights/yr in hotels, and tipping the bellman/doorman well on the way in is one of the best investments in a good stay (calibrating tips for the point where he gives you his name, and ideally phone number, for "if you need anything else"; $10 in most third tier US cities; $20 in a place like New York). Las Vegas basically runs on $5s and $20s -- everything from "valet lot is full but we can keep your car right here for you" to moving carts full of pelican cases to getting vehicle maintenance done to whatever.
In the Middle East/Central Asia I am very happy to be "the American who tips and is polite" vs "the American who is worth $5k if we call that guy...".
In China I had hotel staff literally spend the afternoon with me navigating Beijing police to recover a $5k loss (successfully; btw Beijing tourist police are awesome too.)
Tipping reasonably well at restaurants/cafes you frequent (I try to pick a couple per city) makes getting tables, impromptu meetings, etc much easier to set up.
If you view tipping as an obligation it sucks, but once you view it as a chance to get what you want it is great.
I don't consider a hotel bellman to be a public official, despite the Pinochetian uniform.
(In the case of Beijing, the police were just friendly and no tip was expected. The hotel staff I'd tipped (concierge, etc) were the preparation; it was the #4 guy at hotel (director of guest experience; reports to GM) who helped me. He is senior enough that I didn't tip him, but did get him rewarded through Starwood, and will bring him a suitable gift next time I'm in Beijing -- presumably a bottle of alcohol of some kind not commonly available in China, or some other US thing)
The thing is tipping is usually after service, so if it is single round game, you can free ride.
I'm actually glad that people visually like me (techie upper middle class white American business traveler) seem to have a good reputation worldwide for tipping well -- it means I get service as if I'd tip well even beforehand.
What would suck is being a black guy or otherwise profile as not likely to tip (French?) but being personally willing to tip. In that case, you probably tip initially before service.
So in those cases you're tipping to get service beyond their job. Or we could call it "actual tipping". That's fine by itself. The problem is when "tipping" replaces wages and becomes obligatory. But, annoyingly, the former tends to lead to the latter. It's a hard problem to solve.
I had a hotel owner give me a ride downtown when the cab didn't answer. I gave a stranger, who was in a different hotel lobby, a ride to the airport on my way out when the cab didn't answer. I had someone at a takeout place offer to bring a replacement order to my house when I noticed my order was wrong (couldn't eat it) when I got home. I've had plenty of positive experiences with non-tipped customer service employees, when I was working non-tipped consumer service I always strived for good service.
Some people just want to provide good service and/or be nice people without the expectation of a monetary reward. I'd much rather have those people serving me than the ones who require bribes. I really don't want to turn all interactions into business transactions, I don't think that makes the world a better place and it encourages an extreme form of classicism where the only people welcome are the people who can afford ever increasing bribes every single place they go.
I also really don't want "impromptu meetings" when I'm trying to eat my dinner with my dinner companions.
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[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 273 ms ] thread(for the sake of beautiful symmetry, I don't go to restaurants by myself..)
We've already had a huge preview into how well artificial food replacement products are received by the general public, in the form of Soylent and similar meal replacement drinks and powders.
The answer is that these products have niche demand at best, even before considering the problems they've had with quality control, negative health reactions, etc.
My own experience is that a few years ago I spent a few months living on a Soylent-like concoction of nutritional supplements . It covered all my nutritional needs and had me feeling great in some ways (just like Soylent users report), but after a while led to dreadful problems with my digestive system and mental wellbeing.
After everything I've seen and experienced, I'm very long on conventional food.
On October 12, 2016, the company announced it would halt sales of the "Soylent Bar" due to reports of gastrointestinal illness.
On October 27, 2016, the company halted sales of Soylent Powder 1.6 as a cautionary measure.
I'm fully on the "tipping is terrible for everyone involved" side, but I wonder if the framing here is based on anything.
The bottom line is that from the perspective of the diner, it will not really matter (quality remains equal), but from the perspective of the restaurant, things will get a lot better.
http://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-tipping-be-banned-a-n...
http://freakonomics.com/podcast/danny-meyer/
And yet it's considerably more expensive.
Because, it seems, a considerable amount of the cost of restaurant food goes to the overhead costs of the real-estate owners and the financial system. This is both directly and indirectly (the cost of the rent or financing of the restaurant space + the portion of employee wages that go to renting their homes + the cost of everything the employees purchase going towards rent etc.)
In other words it seems a disproportional amount of our economy goes towards people that own instead of people that do.
How do you solve that though? Increase rent-seeking taxes (interest, rentals, etc) and lower income taxes? (basically lowering significantly the benefits from buying things you don't use yourself)
Investing in restaurants that own land as opposed to investing in land that restaurants use seems like it would have significantly different effects to the economy.
Even after you've included all of your costs?
It's easy to say the raw food ingredients are considerably less expensive, but that's only a small part of the story. There is a cost of having a kitchen (tools and space in the home), utility costs, not to mention your time.
Maybe a high end specialty restaurant that is selling an experience, but I'd be surprised if you could actually compete with a place like McDonalds on cost.
Fries and a hamburger are about the easiest thing to make, requiring no special equipment. The ingredients are a lot cheaper than buying at McDonald's, too.
If you have more than one person eating, then the cost savings can really add up.
For all practical purposes of modern urban life, you at least need some kind of specialized heating apparatus.
More importantly, somewhere to store that apparatus. Which is quite often a kitchen. In San Francisco, the median housing cost per square foot is almost $1,000. A small kitchen is defined as 70 square feet, or $70,000. If we assume a rate of 3%, the opportunity cost of that kitchen is almost $6 per day, or $2 per meal if we assume three meals per day.
That brings the cost of an $8 McDonalds meal down to about $6 right there.
Then there is your time. San Francisco has officially declared that your time is worth at least $13/hr. At that rate you have just 28 minutes before you've already used up that $6. That includes gathering the ingredients, prepping the food, cooking the food, and cleaning up afterwards. That does not leave a lot of room for error, even for something as simple as burgers and fries.
It does indeed get better with scale, but I have also left off a number of other costs, including the cost of the food itself. For a single person (in SF) it is no contest without even getting into other costs.
Of course, there is something to be said about the food you can create yourself, versus eating at Mcdonalds every meal. Cost isn't everything.
As for McDonald's, well, if you want McDonald's-quality food you can do it cheaper.
No? I try to cook most of my meals. In fact, I prefer it over eating out. I'm not convinced it is fiscally optimal though, but I'm okay with paying the premium for my preference.
> which are amortized over time
Like I pointed out in my other comment, simply having a small kitchen in San Francisco will cost you $2 per meal (assuming you eat three meals per day in it), on average. And that amount per meal goes up if you ever decide to skip a meal or eat away from home on occasion. That is not an insignificant amount when prepared meals are also available in the single digit range.
> Maybe if you insist on comparing cooking to your hourly wage it starts to look more competitive.
If we're talking a programmers wage, you can barely even get into the grocery store before you've accrued enough to pay for several McDonalds meals. Never mind the actual cooking, cleaning, etc. It's not even in the same ballpark of competitiveness. But, like I pointed out in the other comment, even if you only accounted for minimum wage, it barely gives you enough time to serve a meal before it is costing you money.
For a fair analysis, you do have to consider some amount. Maybe not the full amount that you would make at your day job, but something for sure. It is another opportunity cost, after all. If you are not including opportunity cost, you are not painting a true picture.
> As for McDonald's, well, if you want McDonald's-quality food you can do it cheaper.
I wouldn't get too hung up on McDonalds specifically. There are some decent mom and pop joints that will give you a good meal for even less than McDonalds. The point was to exclude $50+ a plate-type places, or whatever, as they are selling an experience that so happens to include food.
Is that meant to be a tangent to the original discussion?
This discussion was about restaurants not seeing the benefits of economies of scale. I'm suggesting that they have, it's just not particularly obvious because people are quick to ignore most of the costs of cooking at home.
If all you are saying once you have already invested in the means of production, and don't value your time, that a home cooked meal is cheaper... then sure. I'm sure just about everything you could possibly buy is cheaper than retail if you are only including the raw materials you need to get the job done.
If you already have a garden and your time is free you can grow the food for far less than the grocery store charges. Heck, if you already own a silicon fab and don't value your time designing chips, you can likely build a computer for a fraction of the cost of one in the store. But that's a pretty silly way to look at it. There are real costs to having the production capability that should not be ignored.
Is it? I thought one reason that obesity was higher among people with lower incomes is that it's cheaper for them to buy prepared food than to work an hour less and cook themselves?
If I spent the time I did on cooking on paid work instead, the money I would make could pay for a very good meal. (of course, I don't, I still cook because I can't spend every waking hour working or I'd go insane)
the tipping situation sucks, but the larger economic problem is effectively due to rent extraction by the landlord. when a restaurant can't afford the rent that, say, a bank can, they are effectively priced out of the market. All excess returns and up going to the land owner. This effectively becomes a variant of baumol's cost disease. Once again, return on capital trumps return on labor.
I remember, many years ago, living in Manhattan: in a short period of time, for restaurants on each corner of an intersection were replaced with four banks. A vibrant spot died.
Landlords would only be taxed on the value of their land and not the property they're building.
They're heavily incentivized to develop as much as possible to pay tax, since land-value tax doesn't care about the cost of any improvement you make.
A landlord's decision to improve or not improve the property only depends on 1) the cost of the improvements and 2) the expected revenue stream from that improvement, neither of which are affected by an LVT, since the LVT only cares about the unimproved value of the lot.
There are only two things you care about:
1. How much money does that improvement bring in?
2. How much does that improvement cost?
Neither of those two inputs are affected by a land value tax. Therefore the landlord must reach the same decision, regardless of whether there is an LVT or not, and so LVTs have no effect on whether landlords improve their property.
You might think that they'll be motivated to improve the lot in order to be able to pay the LVT, but that rationally doesn't factor in to the decision to improve the land or not. It only affects the price of the land (Imposing an LVT makes land prices fall by the discounted future cost of the tax).
And not to be rude, but it seems strange to jump into discussions recommending LVTs as a solution to an economic problem without first understanding basic economic theory.
I misunderstood the LVT as something that is levied against the landowner every year?
And not to be rude, but it seems strange to jump into discussions recommending LVTs as a solution to an economic problem without understanding basic economic theory.
I read an economist article on it, and I thought that I understood it. Apparently I don't.
I won't be recommending it in the future until I fully understand the consequences.
Yes, but it still doesn't affect the (rational) landowner's decision. Imagine an improvement that can net the owner $Y a year in profit. A rational owner should always make that improvement, regardless of whether the government is also taxing them $X a year on the land.
If they doesn't have the money/capital to do so, they should sell the land to someone else. Obviously not every landowner acts fully rationally, but in the aggregate, landowners should act pretty closely to that model.
It's not just about whether return is positive, it's about the highest ROI considering opportunity cost.
Consider a simple case where two lots with one story of development each can produce as much as a single lot with two stories of development. With a tax on land+improvements, a landlord does not prefer one over the other. With a tax on land value only, the single lot with two stories is preferred.
>If they doesn't have the money/capital to do so, they should sell the land to someone else.
Indeed. If the neighbors have ten stories of development, a landlord with a one-story building will not be able to afford the LVT and will sell to someone who can afford to build ten stories.
Yes, but that's because tax on land + improved value distorts incentives (by discouraging improvements).
Usually when we say the LVT doesn't affect incentives, the baseline of comparison is against no land taxes of any form. In that world, you would prefer to develop the single lot because you need to buy less land, so the result is the same as with LVT.
That really confused the whole discussion as the current situation is tax on land + improved value, making it look like you were arguing from the other side. No tax at all is anyway taking it to the extreme as the government need money, so it becomes merely an academic exercise.
In our current scheme, improving property is disincentivized because it increases your property tax bill with reassessments.
Or am I missing something?
Theoretically there's no difference between a smaller profit than is possible and a loss for rational profit maximizing agents but the psychological difference is huge.
And it works fine in many other industries in the U.S. where there's no tipping.
"Year of Upheaval for Restaurants That Ended Tipping"
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/dining/restaurants-no-tipp...
It's taking some restructuring of how the restaurants are being run, which is to be expected. USHG is also in a good position to try this, as they have relatively deep pockets, but this, as well as how many other societies don't have tipping at restaurants belies the idea that "it doesn't work".
As an aside, I'm surprised that the article makes no mention of USHG.
We tipped 0$ -- there was essentially no service. I kinda felt bad, but talking it over with my wife, I couldn't really find a reason to tip.
Edit: the expectation is generally implicit, and while standing in line, I can't help but notice that most customers hit the minimum tip percentage on Square, which is usually 15%
Ultimately, I think right now the social expectation of tipping in this situation is in limbo- whether you do or don't, it's ok.
I remember when Ichiban switched to iPads and optimistically fired about 30% of their wait staff, presumably after drinking the kool aid. The service was horrendous until they hired them back.
Absolute biggest hate at restaurants: waiting too long for the bill. I have eaten. I have enjoyed it. I now want to go somewhere else for a drink, or catch my train home, or whatever. Don't make me wait.
Fast food?
Buying shoes?
Car wash?
Repairing plumbing?
Fixing a computer?
I don't see why eating in a restaurant should need extra incentives to the waiters, when we expect good service without tips elsewhere.
It wasn't until I was back in my hotel room that realised I was probably supposed to tip.
I waited and he just looked at me incredulously and asked "What? Do you want CHANGE??". I apologised and said i forgot about the tip thing and perhaps he could just give me a couple of singles as change. I thought that basically 40% tip was a little high. He gave me a couple of bucks back with ill grace.
Pretty much turned me off the whole expected tipping culture altogether.
Forget what you "expect".
Do you actually GET "good service without tips elsewhere"?
My point (and the parent's point) exactly.
From a baseline of having eaten at restaurants all over the world, eating in US restaurants that tip have some of the best service.
Whether the service is worse in some other tipping industries, is not an argument as to whether the service is worse in tipping restaurants.
If you mean responding quickly when we want something, and dealing with problems professionally, then yes.
If you mean constant attention and fake smiles then no.
Somebody can be paid handsomely and do a crap job if there's nothing to motivate them otherwise.
With no tipping better service doesn't buy you much. With tipping better service buys you a larger tip.
Obviously there are exceptions.
Sure you might have a higher chance of getting 30% for good service - but I think it's probably easier to get 10 or 20% for good service in a place where 0% is the expected level.
Thats the idea also where there isn't a set level of expected tip (like in most of the world).
I'm not opposed to the idea of tipping, I'm opposed to the idea of a specific level of tip being expected, effectively making it a part of the staffs wages (which consequently means staff isnt' paid if you choose not to tip).
But North American's do seem to enjoy paying more than advertised. First a bunch of taxes, then some tips, I don't get it.
I'm an expatriated US citizen, and I find the restaurant service abroad on par with US restaurants, with the only difference being how much lip service is given by the servers.
To explain it simply, in US restaurants, I feel like someone is trying to brown-nose the entire time. It's not value that I seek, it's someone doing something and trying to place value on it. The servers are mostly pleasant, and at worst, it's just over the top corporate politeness being enforced, with of course the occasional just bad service.
Abroad, the server is indifferent - when the food is ready, it is brought. They are as polite as you would you expect a restaurant server to be, and in general just want to take your order, deliver food, and then get out of your way because they know you're not at the restaurant for their company, you're there to have some food and drink, presumably with friends/family/colleagues. And just like with US restaurants, there is occasional bad service.
The difference in my mind is the attempt to provide the 'service' that isn't really necessary. This isn't looking down on servers or dismissing the effect a good attitude can have on enjoying a meal, but for the most part the degree to which it is taken when I'm back in the US is over the top. I know it's hard work and that the servers want to do everything possible, but corporate politeness isn't the way to do it. It makes the experience feel really rushed to me and it also feels like a process instead of me being able to just relax and enjoy some good food.
To me this seems the right balance of service and respect of privacy.
As an aside, my experience is that most restaurants also don't really do refills so much as "another drink purchase", so it kind of makes sense in my mind that they're not keeping an eye on how much liquid you have left - if you want to spend money on another drink, you'll let them know.
I think this is just a cultural difference as well as a different way of business. To me having a server constantly checking in on how much is left in my glass or interrupting to pour a drink is more disruptive than a quick gesture to catch the server's attention and signal them over.
Is the US system of tipping as an expected part of the pay of service staff really an incentive though? Isn't the incentive of service staff really just based on getting more than the "base tip" (which can be 10, 15 or 20%)?
In countries where he "base tip" for the expected level of service is zero, tips can still be 10% or 20% for good service.
I'd rather be served by a slightly inattentive sullen teenager in the UK, than a perky waitress with a fake smile pestering me all the time in the US.
I would pick the perky attentive waiter sporting a smile that neither you nor i know is fake over a sullen inattentive person anywhere. In fact, if someone is having a bad day, I actually appreciate the effort to make it better with a fake smile than imposing it on me with a bad attitude. I've experienced overbearing waiters and the solution is as simple as politely asking for space. Nobody walks away from a moment like that feeling angry.
Back to the ultimate point: the question at hand is does tipping (overall) add to or take away from the quality of service provided to the partron. Based on my experience the answer is yes. All else equal - a person may or may not care about the tip.. in which case you get your base level of service. However, you may come across someone that does, in which case you are overwhelmingly more likely to get better service as a result.
Last thought: I find that tipping for service establishes a more direct human bond between me (the recipient) and the person performing the service that ultimately adds (positively) to the mutual experience. Rarely have I been anywhere where I walked away thinking I would have gotten better had I not tipped.
If it's not fake, they're doing a bad job showing it.
>the solution is as simple as politely asking for space. Nobody walks away from a moment like that feeling angry.
Not angry, but it is an awkward thing to request, and I'd rather not have to.
>I find that tipping for service establishes a more direct human bond between me (the recipient) and the person performing the service
I absolutely disagree with that. I find reliance on tipping creates an alienating subservient relationship. No one is going to be genuine when they're depending on my opinion of them for their pay that evening.
(UK resident.)
It also doesn't really explain the fact that tipping in the US is basically mandatory, regardless of good service. If it's basically mandatory, where's the incentive to offer good service?
But this works both ways: If the service staff expects to be tipped regardless of the quality of service, then there's not much incentive for good service in the first place, because the customers are expected to tip anyway and bad service will just result in a marginally lower tip.
If customers are not expected to tip at all, then the service staff has to put in some actual effort to get a tip, because their service needs to be so "exceptionally good" that the customer actually notices it, instead of just taking it for granted.
[1] http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/05/15/478096516/why...
There will be a period of social adjustment and probably some resentment as tipping restaurant hold-outs have servers that brag about huge payouts. But over time the more stable paycheck will be more reliable and better for servers, and while some servers may leave over lack of tips, they will soon find it difficult to find a place that does have a tipping policy.
Restaurants generally over-staff, and tend to get really cutthroat about who stays and who gos when it's needed. A place I worked when I was younger would regularly take the lowest performer off of saturday nights every saturday night.
The ones who aren't making a huge amount of money on the busy nights are already removed from it before they can even think to complain about it.
And it was a very "open secret" that if the restaurant needed to "supplement" your wage for ANY reason, you were going to be gone the next week. I saw it happen many times. So it was somewhat common for the wait staff to "pad" their own wages with tips if they had a bad week.
So now you get the situation that everyone involved wants to keep tipping.
* Well-performing waiters want to keep tipping as they make a lot of money, not tips means a huge pay-cut.
* Under-performing waiters want to keep tipping because they know the second the restaurant needs to pay their wage, they will be the first to go. So it's either keep their low-paying job, or have no job.
There will be holdouts no doubt but overall the rest of the world has no lack of people willing to wait tables. They just get a steady pay check out of it instead of hoping for hours.
I'm pretty sure that this is a form of Gambler's Fallacy.
I've heard a story of a waiter who got a high rollers table one night and walked away with a $1,000 tip.
But I heard it from a girl who worked with him. He was a 20-year industry veteran. She was some five years in at the time. The story was told another five years after it happened.
Sure, it was a massive payout on one night of work... But they don't recount the stories of the hundred rainy sundays where nobody shows up, you close shop early and go home with less than minimum wage.
They also save the story of how they couldn't get a mortgage because the bank can't see the income from tips.
I've heard the story of feeling "stuck" in bartending a number of times. You make more than you could in any other career with no skills, but you can't do anything with the money, it isn't fulfilling, the hours suck, retraining is hard and so is starting at the bottom on a new career ladder.
I know a few who've tried and failed to leave the industry and one who became an accountant for a fortune 500 (and now 'mom' too!).
Anyways, I've gone off on a tangent. My original point was unless you're getting those big-tipping payouts every night (eg: the million dollar a year Vegas bottle service girls) serving likely isn't as good as it "feels"
Definitely. In my experience the waitstaff who most vigorously support the tipping culture are the ones who don't keep exact track of their tips and heavily overestimate their average hourly pay. They are also the ones who gamble the most on scratch-offs, keno, etc.
So don't make it a fixed pay increment, make it a floor set by a fixed pay increment, but allow it to go higher with a revenue sharing formula.
...but, you look at Uber, and there's no tipping there; and it's great for the consumer, and (astonishingly) drivers seem fine with it, despite objectively being exploited blatantly and paid less than taxi drivers.
So, maybe there is something to be said for an all digital disruption to the food scene, somehow...
Honestly, I can't see how it would work though; you have to actually demonstrate that your new 'no tip' solution works somehow, not just armchair philosophize about some way to 'magically make tipping disappear?'
Whether it's profitable, that's another question, clearly.
Like I said, I can't imagine how it would work; but maybe there is some kind of like, 'you subscribe to a service, the service pays out 'tip equivalents', you don't have to tip' scheme that might make sense there somewhere.
Basically, it's not totally implausible there might actually be a business that solves the whole tipping thing somehow.
In the advent of tap based payments especially - which is now ubiquitous in Australia - and you just tap your phone / card / device to the terminal which already shows the bill, I'd say tipping happens mainly in higher end restaurants.
There's certainly no lack of restaurants in Melbourne - with plenty of people enjoying the vast array of options for eating out. I for one am happy to not have to worry about tipping on everyday meals, however on special occasions I will add say 5-10% if particularly pleased with the service.
Well, I've dined all over the world (not an American btw), and the US had the most friendly and alert waiting stuff, which I guess it's at least party because of the tipping.
Sure, in expensive restaurants all around the world you can get good service and waiters that always hover nearby. But in the US that's also true for the neighborhood diner.
I think it's less about tipping, and more about customs.
Personally, when I've eaten in the US I've found the waiting staff to be annoying - I just want to be left alone to eat, not pestered with fake smiles and boring pleasantries because they want a tip.
I can see that to provide the level of service described, frequent checking in on tables etc you would need probably 5-6 servers so the costs would go up significantly. Regarding customs, yes I definitely prefer servers to get me my food and get out of the way, and it is considered normal.
I mainly go out to eat to spend time with friends/colleagues and no to eat, so I guess in Europe cafe is mostly seen as a place to have a chat rather than eat.
I never saw waiters actually try and turn tables even when the place is full and there are some tables where people finished eating, paid for the food and just sit there chatting for a good hour. Yes it is considered rude to do that when place is full but it is more of cultural thing.
Speaking of restaurants (not "cafe's") i.e. where you actually have lunch or dinner, (which means normally at least two courses) the number of servers is function of the level of the place, it is more or less "coded".
The range goes from "bad" or "slow" service which is 1 server every 25 people to "excellent" or "fast/responsive" which is 1 server every 8 people.
You won't find 1/25 if not in really cheap places, nor 1/8 if not in really expensive ones, average is 1/12 to 1/16.
Leaving the table free after having eaten is exclusively cultural, no waiter will ever dare to tell you to free the table or bring you the bill if not asked for, with the rare exception of long time customers with which there is confidence, in which case the waiter may ask this as a personal favour, on the other hand any long time customer will notice that the place is full and leave the table free as soon as possible.
Good restaurants (and capable waiters) can understand from a number of signals if you are in just for a quick meal or if you are in for a meal at leisure and serve you accordingly.
So, genuine unfriendliness (try France waiters) or rudeness (try a lot of Europe) is better?
And yes I'd prefer whatever you consider "rude" that happens Europe, as I've never experienced anything near what I would consider rude in Europe. I'm looking to eat dinner not get a lap dance.
Admittedly, I've never been to France specifically.
I don't require genuine friendliness from waiters. Feigned friendliness and politeness will do just fine, since the purpose is to just get better service, not to make friends with the people at the restaurant.
So, the problem is we get it much less in Europe.
If you are looking for "better service" in Europe it seems you are looking in the wrong places. May I suggest a strip club instead?
I also hate the constant 'how is your meal going sir?' check-in; I just want to eat in peace without some poor guy feeling he has to do the whole fake-buddy routine every 5 minutes to earn his tip. But there seems to be no polite way to say "Hey, no need to constantly check on me, or be creepily friendly. I'm going to tip you anyway". It just feels so contrived.
Maybe I just have poor social skills or something...
Last year I have also visited Australia for the first time with my wife and we absolutely loved the fact on the contrary to other Western countries you are never expected to tip in there. From what I understand waiters get their reasonable salaries, the food is quite expensive, but if you see 38$ in the menu, you know you are going to leave 38$ on the table. Nobody has to waste their brain cycles thinking about how to tip the dudes. We live in EU and find EU and US tipping culture a major pain in the a.
My experience is that the US, in general, came in last or tied with Mexico and the Carribean. I'm not talking bad service, just not as nice as Canada (second place) or Japan (first place).
Canadians tend to just be nice people (I've got relatives there, so I'm probably biased) and I think that's why it's got good service.
Japan has a culture of customer service that leads it to be the best, IMO. Anyone who has learned some Japanese and then visited Japan will have stories to tell you of how amazingly nice the clerks are and some of the odd situations you can get in because you don't know the culture. For instance: You aren't supposed to ask, "Do you have any (X)?" This is because they can't tell a customer "no". If you do this, they'll take you to the part of the store that would have the product, and then say something like, "It would be here if we had it."
Instead, you're supposed to say, "Do you not have (X)?" and then they can answer "Yes, we have none."
That isn't to say that people don't have bad experiences there. A co-worker of mine said she had a bad experience and found that clerks were rude to her. (She's very nice, so it wasn't her attitude or anything.) But in general, the stories I hear are of amazing levels of service.
Other options:
+ Start with clear signs to indicate for other businesses (cabs, hairdresser) that tips are not expected.
+ I will assume that you pay the 20% to your personnel anyway. So basically you offer a guilt-free paying experience. We will genuinely be happy by whatever you pay.
+ The international card. Communicate that you don't want that Americans are the only ones paying 20% more.
+ Build up a name as employer. Advertise with that.
+ Mix and match your service offerings with others, being a library, place to date, etc where tipping is less obvious.
+ Have people pay online before the meal. Subscriptions is also possible.
+ Uber-experience. Do not pay the restaurant directly, but have intermediate company taking care of it.
I think Dutch service is just particularly bad, and tipping clearly doesn't explain the difference since Spanish service is so much better without the expectation of tipping.
In Finland nobody gives tips so it has nothing to do with that, just that, generally speaking, the Dutch don't seem the most service minded people.
It sounds like the people who dislike tipping are the same people who struggle to stand up for themselves to salespeople, and feel pressured to pay extra just to remove themselves from the social setting. I don't mean to be accusatory, but I believe it's likely this is a major motivating factor to dislike tipping despite the complete advantage it gives to you as a consumer.
When I go out to eat, I do so to unwind. The implicit pressure to tip detracts from that experience and I dislike it. It is not a question of what I am capable of doing. It is about not having to deal with the unfairness of an average or a poor waiter demanding to be compensated.
How about disliking tipping because it's demeaning to everyone involved. People relying on my charity to make their rent, despite working a full time job. What kind of messed up system is this?
But then the essay shifted to two seemingly unrelated reasons: (1) if you make the food delicious and the service great you can charge more, and (2) if you pay the kitchen staff more, you get less turnover/happier cooks. These last two don't support the central thesis - why does ending tipping help cooks get paid more? At the end of the day, fixing all other costs, cooks get paid more if servers get paid less, whether that's from ending tipping or increasing chef salary. And obviously making delicious food would be great, but what does that have to do with tipping? If you end tipping, suddenly everyone will try harder?
An article examining the effects of increasing chef pay at the expense of service pay would be very interesting to me. I would gladly sacrifice some professionalism in service for increased food quality, and I wonder if others would, too.
( perhaps this is all anecdotal, but tipping has never seemed to make sense to someone not in the mix of it )
Removing (banning) tipping all together in a restaurant is doable, but as an owner you may want to ensure you have incentives left for employers (e.g. let customers anonymously rate the service after online bookings and hand out bonuses etc).
I prefer the normal system where staff is paid in full (so no part of their expected income is tips) and customers tip for good service. This is how it works in most of the world.
I also agree that nothing screams "I'm a sphincter!" quite like asking for a 20% tip on a muffin, or a cup of coffee. Unless you physically came to me, got my order, and brought my food to me, you don't deserve a damn tip.
Another thing that restaurant owners do that is deserving of a throat-punch is to confiscate tips and dole them out to other workers, or divvy them up evenly amongst the servers. When I give someone a tip, it is because they've done a good job, and I want to show THAT PERSON my gratitude. I'm not remotely interested in helping the restaurant owner make payroll. That's not what my tip is for.
Tipping sucks and it is grossly abused throughout the restaurant industry. I'd be happy to see it die a deserved death.
Of course, if you happen to be the one who got there early, and you like having 3-hour meals while chatting with your friends, it's the perfect arrangement, because nobody will pressure you to eat, pay, and leave in 30-40 mins as usually happens in the US.
If I'd like to be pressured to leave asap I would go to a fast food chain. So, this doesn't sound like a problem at all, more like a feature.
I'd love to see a non-tipping culture organically rise up. I'd choose restaurants that pay a living wage for all full time employees, sans the need for tips. I know some restaurants have experimented with negative results, but I'd like to (maybe wishfully) believe that this can still take hold in the US.
A nice side effect of the tipping culture in the US is that this inefficiency is eliminated. That's why I find it hard to believe that businesses will find it in their best interest to eliminate tips.
What you consider an "inefficiency" is part of a lifestyle in big parts of Europe. Going out to eat isn't just considered "calorie intake" that needs to be "as quick and efficient as possible", it's considered leisure and social time, especially in the southern parts of Europe like Greece, Italy or Spain.
It's also very seldom that people really manage to just drink one bottle of wine in 3 hours, usually it's bigger groups and they tend to drink a lot once they finished eating. Depending on how the restaurant prices their drinks the "3 hour drinking group" can end up making way more money for the restaurant than trying to shove 3 parties of "Just eat something with a small soda", into the same timeframe.
Sometimes I think American dining is about just food, rather than the whole experience of dining, which includes the conversation with friends and family.
Being able to talk and enjoy your time even after you’ve finished your meal is a feature, not a bug.
(But there are tips in Germany, though the average tip is probably well below ten percent.)
Or better yet, when the waiter at a cafe says very politely, "Oh yes, sit anywhere!" when there isn't an empty chair in the place.
> "Make your food delicious."
No shit? That could possibly make customers happy?
> "Next, consider cooking an art form."
Aha, okay...
> "Go ahead: Kill tips and list a fair price for your bowl of brisket pho, grilled lamb shawarma, or omakase."
Haha, okay... well if it's this easy... how could everyone get it so wrong? Damn!
---
FYI - I never felt uncomfortable to tip in a restaurant. I go even as far as that I don't dine in restaurants which have a no tip policy or where the tips go to the owner instead of the staff.
Also, restaurants already charge a fair price. It's one of the longest running industries and they do still pretty well, so clearly they already ask a "fair" price for their phos. The wage for a chef or other staff is not determined by the menu price but by the market rate. If you have more people who can cook than people who need a cook then it's a bit tough isn't it.
I should have been fully informed how much should I have to pay before I purchase something or some service. Any extra demand from agreed amount should be illegal.
I also don't want to waste my precious time on paying the tip for calculating tax.
The worker's salary is a employer's responsibility. If the the worker become underpaid without the tipping, then the worker is underpaid by the employer.
This! Tipping is nothing but the employer passing the buck and guilting the customer.
https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm
The implication is that not only is this restaurant, which we ended up paying ~$80 a person to eat dinner + wine + dessert at, screwing their customers with the mandatory service charge, they're also screwing their employees by keeping 40% of it for the owner. I won't eat there again...
Edit: Added visual proof (and name and shame): https://s3-media4.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/t3UUaCU8gl6zPsVQghlv...
I would be happy to learn that the 40% was going to the cooks. It's still a shady practice, and what makes it worse than not informing your guests ahead of time is that they're doing this in the name of "providing a livable wage for our staff." Pay your staff a livable salary and stop screwing your customers over...
Depending on the city and state, this could be illegal. I'd encourage you to ask the server if the 40% goes to the kitchen or the owner. If the latter, write a letter or make a call to your labour law enforcement group.
https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs15.pdf
>A compulsory charge for service, for example, 15 percent of the bill, is not a tip. Such charges are part of the employer's gross receipts. Sums distributed to employees from service charges cannot be counted as tips received, but may be used to satisfy the employer's minimum wage and overtime obligations under the FLSA. If an employee receives tips in addition to the compulsory service charge, those tips may be considered in determining whether the employee is a tipped employee and in the application of the tip credit.
[1] http://www.tipcompliance.com/polLearningCenter.cfm?doc_id=89
Probably not. In the restaurant I worked at was customary for the waiters to tip the kitchen and support staff. Owners were not tipped.
http://www.seattletimes.com/life/food-drink/seattle-restaura...
Florida based for reference, tips are self reported here too but our POS system would automatically transfer tip amounts when a credit card was the payment method. So our payroll system already has that amount. Then we had an electronic time clock where servers scanned their hand to clock in\out, and it was set to prompt them for declared cash tips. It was a nicer restaurant (avg check a bit over 100$). Occasionally a server wouldn't declare enough tips to hit minimum wage for a pay period and the first thing HR would do is check to make sure they were declaring cash tips. In 5 years working there I can't remember a single time a server was actually under minimum wage for a pay period, they just weren't declaring cash tips because CC tips usually covered it.
I have been out of hospitality for a few years but I am seeing even smaller places with POS systems run on Ipads. I would assume since we live in the future these have similar features to the ancient 'micros' brand POS system we used and could integrate with quickbooks or better accounting software to run payroll and do these calculations.
P.S. for any server (or employee anywhere for that matter) who thinks their company is doing something illegal you don't have to even talk to your manager/boss/owner, just call the Department of Labor they pay people to fix these problems for you.
I've waitressed before and when I was a little short of minimum wage several times due to us being a slow/cheap restaurant the management just said "Some weeks you make more some you make less" and didn't try to correct it. I couldn't risk loosing my job. Sure, if they fired me for reporting them they'd be in trouble, but how long would it take for me to get justice and force them to pay? I wouldn't be able to eat while I waited for some kind of justice to be doled out.
But even if it happened FOR SURE EVERY TIME. What an inefficient system! Rather than just paying the minimum wage up front, with predictable, projectable costs, businesses spend person hours on calculating tips, hours worked, per employee, etc. And then have to pay (potentially) widely varying amounts at the end of the cycle.
I get that some customers and some servers like the practice of tipping. But why not require employers to pay (at least) the minimum wage, period. You could still tip if you want to, and an you can still try to earn a tip if you want to. But now it's more like a bonus, gravy, than the difference between rent and no-rent.
I suspect that the escalation in the US has something to do with employers getting greedy and trying to reduce wages to factor in tips. I don't have any evidence to back this up.
In most cases, they'll also be fired quickly if they don't, so they'll overreport tips to "make" the minimum wage even if they don't actually receive enough.
Whether or not tipping should exist, if it does, it shouldn't substitute for the minimum wage, it should be entirely on top of it.
The tipping is dumping.
The seller(who is the employer) offered a product with the price they choose. That price should reflect all the necessary costs of the product, including the salary to the workers.
By demanding the tipping, they make the price cheaper than it actually is.
That is dumping.
No. This would apply if you actually paid less than it actually is
It might be false advertisement though
If it's demanded by the establishment, it's a service charge, not a tip. They are legally distinct things.
A tip may be expected by the server as part of social custom, but it is not demanded by the establishment from which you purchase.
The key for restaurants is to minimize the menu item price when you decide what to order. Even if you have a mental limit of $15, you might spend $17.55 on lunch because the menu said $14 when you ordered.
Phrased as if it was a good thing.
As for humanity, imo capitalism is the wrong model if we want to optimize for global happiness. Directionally, basic income seems better, though I'm sure the devil is in the details...
That said, who says "the worker's salary is a employer's responsibility?"
Monetary culture is ancient and emergent. It's culture. Complicated, organic, varied and local. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't want to change it if it's bad or impractical. But, is a culture of tipping bad.
I like that this article is culturally focused. Wage disparities, the social outcomes of these etc.
...The employer does the second they hire the worker
Personally I always give a generous tip, (unless the server intentionally does something bad), just because it feels good to. It is not charity or pity for low wage. It is just that I would welcome a tip too if I were in the waiter's shoes, no matter how much my wage would be.
You get a beer somewhere, it's 1.75€ and you round it off to 2€. That's a reasonable tip that says "service has been fine, thanks.".
You get dinner somewhere, it's 57.25€ and you round it to 60€. Same thing as above.
You get dinner somewhere, it's 57.25€ and you pay exactly that amount. The message is "the price was fair enough for what I got". Nobody will look badly at you.
You get dinner somewhere, it's 57.25€ and you pay 70€. The message is "you have been wonderful hosts, thank you VERY much".
Also, tips are not just for the service, but for the entire experience. You tip if you want to compliment the service, but also/alternatively because you want to compliment the food, or the ambient, or whatever.
No disrespect intended, but like with things such as gun control laws and plastic currency in different colors materials and sizes (two examples of things implemented on a wide scale in other countries with NO adverse effect), I am always bemused when US based people keep insisting that it will never work there.
Why would it not be? The employer pays the employee for their labor. The exception is with tipping, in which the employer passes most of the paying responsibility to the customer.
That said, who says "the worker's salary is a employer's responsibility?"
Monetary culture is ancient and emergent. It's culture. Complicated, organic, varied and local. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't want to change it if it's bad or impractical. But, is a culture of tipping bad.
I like that this article is culturally focused. Wage disparities, the social outcomes of these etc.
20% is an easy calculation. Move the decimal point over one, and double. $24.30 becomes $2.43, doubled you get $4.86 which is your tip. Round it up to $5 if you want. Did you really enjoy the service? Add another $2 or $3. Terrible waiter? Subtract $2 or $3.
The only reason to increase the percentage of table service tips is if the restaurant employee does more for the customer. I have not observed this to be the case in the last decade, in larger cities or out of them.
You can recommend 25% of the total if you want. Heck, recommend 40%. But as long as the restaurant business continues to operate with respect to employee pay in the same fashion that is has for decades, I will continue to consider 15% of the pre-tax total to be a reasonable tip for median-quality restaurant table service. If that ever becomes such a bad tip that servers can't be arsed to work for it, I guess I can pay higher percentages with proportionally higher service expectations. If you want me to tip 25%, you can bet your ass that if I so much as order a burger, I will be asking my server what the cow was named, how old it was at slaughter, and to identify the stockyard where it was finished. (Note: My grandfather actually asked one of those questions. At a diner.)
Of course, according to my brother-in-law, mine is "the most stubborn family that has ever lived". Recommending 18% on my bill is a great motivation for me to calculate exactly 15%, to the penny, instead of estimating and using the ceiling function to the next whole dollar. People like me are just one of the many reasons why tips are not now 80% or more of your bill, and why you can't yet buy Christmas decorations in the seasonal aisle of your local retailer on Memorial Day. You're welcome.~
It's completely retarded in every conceivable way.
I probably will continue to write both as I'm a little paranoid about people making changes to the values before they get put into the machine, and having to change 2 lines is harder than 1.
Maybe consider not using this word anymore.
You just take a zero, and add a dollar sign to the front.
Really? Surely if they're a terrible waiter/terrible service, you shouldn't leave any tip.
I say this as someone who has worked for both very dysfunctional management as well as very functional, process oriented management. The difference between how well customers were served was like night and day. Some issues that contributed to the dysfunction was lack of training and lack of feedback.
Also, in many places tips are pooled, every single person I know who was a tipped employee was part of a tip pool, so you probably taking away salary from an amazing server in the process. Sometimes back of the house is tipped out a small percentage as well.
Restaurant service is, above all, a team effort, so basically tipping is super unfair no matter how you slice it.
In places where they don't pool the direct wait staff might still need to give a cut to others. It was explained to me that the busboys will sandbag you if they feel cheated, and then good luck turning over tables in your section when they haven't been cleared.
Of course management doesn't have an incentive not to over staff because they aren't paying the employees hardly anything anyways. Add that with employees bribing^H^H^H^H^H^H^Htipping other employees and, wow, what a dysfunctional system.
I'd imagine bartenders would pretty much always be required to pool tips with each other since whenever there's more than one working they always work in a team.
If you actually speak up they'll have a better idea.
You can demand that the bill be discounted or waived entirely (or that what you paid be refunded) if you didn't get what you were expecting. For instance, if you walk out of a movie because the sound was a half second out of sync and the picture was out of focus, you could just eat the price of the ticket, or you could find a manager and get your money back for the low, low cost of just voicing what was wrong with your experience.
What else would you do? Angrily write a bad Yelp review in your car?
Fortunately, I live in an area where there is no end of new restaurants to explore, if I have bad service at one, then I just won't go back there. Problem solved (for me).
For the record, I've never tipped 0% (but have tipped only 10% for particularly bad service).
I wouldn't leave a $0 tip in a country where tipping is an essential part of the server's income, but I do think such a system is backwards.
When a person walks into a restaurant in the USA they can waive a $20 bill at a waitperson and say if you do what I want, and if I like you, and if I'm feeling generous, I might give you some of this.
Of course, they might not too.
Labor laws, minimum wage, etc are all there to make this illegal in a work contract, and it should be illegal for tipping too because it's gross.
So you also dislike bonuses for white collar professionals?
Because it's exactly the same thing.
It's a completely different situation than bonuses on top of a salary that already covers living expenses.
Bonus makes up a significant portion of my regular income. I'm sure that's true for many other HN readers.
> It's a completely different situation than bonuses on top of a salary that already covers living expense.
In many cases, salary does not cover living expenses. In some instances bonuses can be 10x annual salary or more. Even if bonus is only 3x annual salary, you wouldn't say that salary covers living expenses as few people live on only 25% of their income.
Also, if you're still working there and looking for fresh CS grad (Scala and Linux admin experience), my email is in my profile ;)
New York State's budget situation is good or bad based on how good or bad bonuses are -- we're talking billions of dollars.
Even in the very unlikely event that you have an airtight contract, there are instances where the employer simply will not pay you. Legal action might be the only recourse in this situation. Sometimes you are required to go through arbitration and sometimes you have to sue.
Can you teach me how this tax avoidance works? It seems that I am missing out. Can you also specify the jurisdiction where this works?
> mostly part of their contract
I can think of many people whose bonuses are 3x or more their salary and who do not have a guaranteed minimum bonus or even a strict formula based bonus.
1. The Percentage Method
The IRS specifies a flat “supplemental rate” of 25%, meaning that any supplemental wages (including bonuses) should be taxed in that amount.
This works for bonuses up to 1 million.
> I can think of many people
Yes, there are plenty of idiots even in finance.
(It's mostly a disadvantage. I get about 60-70% of my income in bonus and stock which is treated the same; it just means that, if I don't plan ahead for it, I end up with a surprise tax bill on April 15th. I do plan ahead, but the whole process is obnoxious.)
Or if your bonus is in January you can have a higher witholdings from salary and the default 25% from the bonus. Just balance it by the end of the year.
But that's just simple stuff, there are also other benefits to the company.
But it's absolutely not correct that paying people with bonuses lowers their effective tax rate.
I do dislike them, because in a way they are the similar - you work really hard and you can't be sure if you will get it or not.
It's the classic carrot on a stick motivation.
> Because it's exactly the same thing.
At most companies, how you get a bonus and how much it is is very clearly defined, and so in that regard, it's not similar to tipping at all.
I'm surprised that this has been your experience. In many cases, even cases where bonus is 3x annual salary, the bonus is "discretionary" and little is clearly defined.
I'm all for the no tipping and i happily work without a bonus. And i would expect other to as well. If you can't show up and be consistent in performance without a carrot then thats maybe not a great reflection of how you work and what you value.
I am not aware of a study on this, but I would bet my annual income that those factors affect your bonus.
It's not just banking. I was horrified at some of the behavior I saw from the sales folks at a software start-up I worked for (including the CEO). As a sales lifer, our CEO came up with some pretty generous comp packages for the sales team that promoted bad behavior and short-term "wins" that the rest of us would be cleaning up for months.
I think this should be obligatory link in all bonus related discussions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc
It's possible that they're unavoidable given the volatile nature of business revenues and perhaps a system with no bonuses would result in lower total compensation.
A server gets their tips probably about once an hour or so and the amount from one customer may differ with essentially the same service for another customer. Esentially random and arbitrary.
A bonus is paid to you by your company (evaluated by your boss) and is more like profit sharing.
A tip is paid directly by the customer. The customer has no way of knowing if you are being paid a living wage or not. They have different incentives if they are a regular or not. The waiter at a busy restaurant will see hundreds of customers a day, but the customer may only interact with this waiter once. The waiter understands the house systems and knows how to maximize tipping. These are all ways that the waiter has an information advantage and can wield it against the customer. Maximizing tipping and providing good service to everyone are seldom the same thing.
People like to think that tipping puts the customer in power but it really just sets up the customer to be gamed. This aspect doesn't exist when we're talking about bonuses with your employer.
Do white collar professionals always expect to get a 20% bonus, no matter how well the company does?
http://prole.info/
Abolish restaurants. Might be interesting to you to give it a chance.
I was thinking the other day that the 1800 world of servants living upstairs/downstairs has been replaced by privatised slaves who have no job security, no guarantee of lodging and nothing other than temporary masters. The situation we have right now is demeaning, these people have little choice.
No doubt someone will tell me if we kill these businesses people will have no jobs, but I want a more radical reform than this.
The job is demeaning because it's made to be so. Cooking in and of itself isn't demeaning. I love to bake. I don't love to bake and be treated like crap and get paid like crap and have no financial security.
Well a lot of that comes from tipping culture and low pay. Like you need to lick my shoe in order to get your $3 tip. It's a power dynamic-- you're reliant on their money, so you're lower than them. And society looks down on restaurant workers in general as lazy people. People's views on restaurant workers needs to change.
I've waitressed before too. I knew people who liked their job most of the time, you get to be around people, you get the satisfaction of someone enjoying a good meal you've made and being happy about it. Some people prefer physical work. I don't think the job itself "has" to be eradicated. But of course no one likes the people treat you like crap or the awful pay.
The power dynamic comes from creating a system where people are forced to work to meet their largest expense: rent.
I'm all for automating jobs in general, but we're not there yet.
Those further up the value chain have more of a give-and-take relationship with their employer, the supply/demand curve is more in the favour of the employee. The employee has better savings and is not facing missing next week's rent if they are fired. A very different dynamic.
Not sure about what could be done about supply/demand. They are low skill jobs. Most people could learn to do them pretty quickly. That doesn't mean they don't deserve to be paid properly-- the current economy is creating those jobs, we still need service people. They are working hard. But as far as supply/demand goes, I think there would always be a surplus of people who have the ability to do those jobs.
That said, the system creates these imbalances so I would not look to simply treat the symptom.
Progress depends on a deficit of cheap labour to encourage automation. Globalisation has seen companies move manual low-skill jobs to other countries. Meanwhile land prices are up and so are rents. People must take what they can get whilst the usurers run rampant.
For example, if the wait person takes your order and brings your food and nothing more I wouldn't tip.
If they do the above and keep your water glass filled constantly without need to ask, if your meal, drink orders and dessert come out promptly and correctly, if they ask if everything is ok throuought the meal at appropriate times, etc I would tip.
Getting good service is starting to get hard to find. Some waitstaff are really good some hate their job and really don't care about the experience you have at the establishment you are in. It's just a job.
Also I've worked in kitchens, I know what douche nozzles customers can be. That's when you can see who your best wait staff is. During times they have to deal with them.
This shouldn't be considered exceptional. It's what I'm paying for and should not require tipping.
>> if they ask if everything is ok throuought the meal at appropriate times
I understand you included 'appropriate' but this is honestly the thing that irritates me most about tipping culture. When I visit the US the barrage of 'how is everything etc.' throughout every meal drives me insane. Leave me alone to enjoy the food and conversation, stop interrupting it.
But I can't tell you how many times I've not had a fork, or needed a drink and my waitperson never came to ask if I needed anything. The frustration can go both ways.
Where I grew up (The Netherlands) this simply does not exist. If you need something you ask the waiter and only then they'll come to you. Likewise for the check, the check only comes when you ask for it. It is considered extremely rude to get the check before you've asked for it.
Of course, after living in the US for 5 years I've become accustomed to all kinds of weird things (like the insistence of having salad before the entree, and entree not being an appetizer, simply blows my mind).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entr%C3%A9e
When the meal is finished. If there's a real problem all it takes is for me to catch the eye of one of the many weight staff walking around and raise my hand and they'll come over.
In my opinion, absent of delivering food, asking if people want refills, or addressing an obvious problem, you really shouldn't be interrupting people. The end result is good service without being annoying.
repeat visits is what you do for good to exceptional service/product at a good price.
tipping culture is just the lazy way for restaurants owners to deal with high attrition rates and lack of training and decent wages.
And yet fully half of those things are beyond the control of the person you're tipping for it.
If manager or owner hoses the servers and doesn't staff appropriately then they aren't going to be able to "ask if everything is ok throuought the meal at appropriate times" and it wouldn't be their fault. Nobody can do the impossible. It's like personally blaming the cashier when the line is long.
I'd also start it earlier with training. If someone isn't trained for the job they are doing and never get any feedback from management, is it really their fault if they do it wrong? (I say this as someone who worked somewhere where training was more or less "yeah, go figure it out" so I have a lot of empathy)
I wrote on HN a while ago about my experience waiting (at least) a half hour to pick up a site-to-store order at Walmart when there was literary no customers. I never personally blamed the staff for it though because I could see the dysfunction in the system they were given to work with (and I could see the physical discomfort the staff was in dealing with it).
For example, if the wait person takes your order and brings your food and nothing more I wouldn't tip.
If they do the above and keep your water glass filled constantly without need to ask, if your meal, drink orders and dessert come out promptly and correctly, if they ask if everything is ok throuought the meal at appropriate times, etc I would tip.
Getting good service is starting to get hard to find. Some waitstaff are really good some hate their job and really don't care about the experience you have at the establishment you are in. It's just a job.
Also I've worked in kitchens, I know what douche nozzles customers can be. That's when you can see who your best wait staff is. During times they have to deal with them.
Its definitely worth a read.
And I read articles about how companies like Doordash are not making profits and are riding on VC money. It is just passing the buck onto the customers to keep their uneconomical business models afloat.
You are. A tip is, by definition, not something you have to pay.
The thing about tipping, though, is that even if the employee were "fairly" compensated, they could still be "underpaid". This of course is only in the case where the tip is after the service.
What I mean by this, is when the tip is after the service, if the person is tipping fairly (or tips at all - some of these buggers just don't tip!), they will tip based on the level and quality of the service. That is what a tip is for.
If the person goes above and beyond their customer's wants and desires, and does so regularly (if the customer is a regular), those tips can be (and should be) a fairly large percentage. For instance, when I tip - if I get adequate service, I'll do 20%. But if I get better service, my tip rate will go up; I have done well over 100% at times when the service was worth it.
Now, I know that's an anomaly on my part - but going over 20% shouldn't be unexpected, if the service is worth it. It should also go the other way, of course (poor service -> less of a tip). It should serve as feedback to the employee as to how customers view their service, and how to improve it.
If the person does their job correctly (and makes an effort to go above and beyond customer's needs), and people tip properly (always an issue in today's world), then the employee can easily make well more in a day than what they would get being "paid fairly" by their employer without any tips.
However, today there are multiple problems: First, in so many cases, employees don't go "above and beyond" and so don't see the proper sized tips. But there is the other issue of people not tipping or tipping poorly - and so we have a feedback loop to the bottom. I'm not sure what has caused this, because I know it didn't use to be this way here in America.
For instance, my wife works in a service industry job. Recently, she had to cater to the desires of a customer, ultimately going well outside the parameters of her job and position to make this customer happy (I won't go into much detail - but it was room service with a multiple course meal, in a hotel chain that doesn't provide this service, for a family of four). Despite preparing and delivering enough food to feed a small army, doing so with a smile and a wave, and going out of her way to do this (while staying late on her shift) - she received zero tip from these people. These are long-term guests of her employer, too (they've been there longer than she has worked there); they have never been treated unfairly by her.
It's an unfortunate consequence of our system and society, and perhaps cultural - for some reason, many see service workers as "beneath them" or something, and refuse to tip. In other cases (like your's), there are other cultural conditionings from that side that makes tipping seem unnatural or foreign in some manner. All of this ultimately feeds into these employees doing a worse job than they might otherwise, again leading to a negative feedback loop.
That said - everywhere my wife has worked, after she has worked there for a limited amount of time, the customer satisfaction scores for her area have increased; she does receive accolades and positive response from staff, guests, and her employers. People write glowing positive Yelp and other reviews mentioning her, and how her attitude and assistance made their experience extremely enjoyable. Furthermore, when she has left positions (for one reason or another), those scores drop like a rock (she follows them afterward sometimes), and customers generally follow her to her new employer - her service is that good.
I shit you not, she has groupies.
And she generally makes good tips. At least from those who understand what tipping is about and for.
The obvious way to get rid of the tipping culture is to not give them, or give as much as you the customer believe it is worth (rather than a standard 15 / 20%).
Doing this it will be the waiting staff that suffer rather than the restaurant owners, who you are trying to pass the message to.
How about you pay your damn employee or fire him for being incompetent?
It also should not be mandatory, that's right.
Where this falls down is that tax would then be charged on the raised prices, meaning we're now paying a tax on the "tip". I think many people would find that hard to swallow. So it's a good idea, but local and state tax laws would have to change.
I also know people who work as servers and bartenders in the US and (predictably) they hate the idea of ending tipping even if it means a higher base wage. I suspect they're wrong but then I don't have to walk in their shoes.
That said, travelling to the US shouldn't be handicapped by a fear of tipping. Don't tip, or do, but not going because of it is an unfortunate choice.
While this is true, it also sounds as an excuse not to improve. It is clearly time for the culture of United States to change, and not just change, but strive to change for the better. Punting won't do that.
There is too much punting going on everywhere, which is one of the reasons the world now finds itself in the problems it finds itself in. Please help stop the vicious downward spiral. Not punting on problems is a low hanging fruit.
edit: I was thinking about how to award good employees and I think it's simple: give a small paper form at the end, where people will provide ratings for the service provided. Not all of them will fill them, of course, but I think you will get some feedback about who are your best employees and who are the worst. Also, regarding tips, how do they help the kitchen staff (in the restaurants, you can find other examples on other businesses)? That sistem isn't fair.
The employer is in a much better position to assess staff performance than customers... And it's not the customers job.
If a waiter sucks they won't fire themselves just because they're only getting 15% tips.
I disagree, after all it's the waiter who interacts with the customer most, while the employer mostly can only watch from afar or has other (better) things to do.
In that regard a 5% difference on the tip won't do much at all. If the waiter expects to get tipped anyway, regardless of how bad the service was, then he's far more likely to give bad service and just get 5% less tip.
But if getting any tip at all depends on the quality of service, then waiters at least have to try to deliver some decent service, instead of just doing an half-arsed job and getting their "guaranteed", although somewhat smaller, tip.
At any rate, I've not heard of tips being collated by the manager, and the employees with the smallest tips fired/disciplined... but perhaps it does happen? Unless that's the case IMO customers aren't assessing performance in a meaningful way.
> But if getting any tip at all depends on the quality of service
In the US it does not, service has to be DIRE to get 0.
The manager, for example, can observe if the employee is the problem or the customer. I've observed customers (from the outside) fly off the handle for no reason whatsoever. An employee shouldn't be paid less because the person they are serving is awful. They also shouldn't be paid less because the back of the house is short staffed so the food took an hour to be cooked, because people will tip less for that reason.
Also there's the people who believe "good service" means being served by a young attractive woman who smiles at you.
I'd like to know what good service means to other people. Good service to me is you take my order and bring me what I ordered.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0148296301...
While tipping is not an enormous driver of service quality (primarily for the reason you mentioned—that tips are expected even when service is poor), it does appear to be correlated with better service to some degree.
Not in my experience. For instance, I've seen cab drivers expecting a 20% tip to be added by default regardless of the quality of service, courtesy and help (if any). It feels terrible to be asked to pay 120% (in total) for mediocre or even lousy service.
I've tipped extra on those occasions where the service has been exceptional and above the call of duty. But I don't like to feel pressured to tip when someone is just "phoning it in".
However, tipping only exists in certain jobs, and apparently people who do other jobs do them just fine in the US. So tipping doesn't seem to be necessary.
By the way, I also think the tipping issue is a significant annoyance when going to the US. I love visiting the US and definitely it's not a reason for not going (and I don't think the GP meant that either), but probably my most uncomfortable moments there (excluding when I was detained at customs, I think due to having the same name as a criminal) have been when I got disapproving or even downright angry looks for (unintentionally) not giving the expected tip due to not knowing all the details of customs by state, restaurant type, etc.
The USA is very much about what's in it for me? One has to be paid extra, explicitly (apparently), to do one's job well, paid to give good service, paid to be nice (?).
Is it necessary to have a direct tip for doing those things? In a different culture, those are things your salary pays for.
The entire point of being a server is to offer the customer a pleasant dining experience.. that is literally the major job qualification in customer service. Are you saying that people that work in retail aren't incentivized to do their job because they don't receive tips. I think its absurd, because if you ever work retail, you take much more crap from customers on top of working just as hard.
I do agree with you though, I dislike tipping and I find the service in Japan without tipping to be better than the service in US with tipping. For waiters in the US, from what I've seen so far they are overpaid compared to the kitchen staff in restaurants because tips are not distributed fairly (and by law in some states, the kitchen staff cannot get a percentage of the tip). In Japan, it's the contrary, the kitchen staff would tend to be better paid (and more respected) than the waiters.
Blame the powerful restaurateur lobby. [2]
[1] https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm
[2] http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/02/02/464852535/for...
In the Middle East/Central Asia I am very happy to be "the American who tips and is polite" vs "the American who is worth $5k if we call that guy...".
In China I had hotel staff literally spend the afternoon with me navigating Beijing police to recover a $5k loss (successfully; btw Beijing tourist police are awesome too.)
Tipping reasonably well at restaurants/cafes you frequent (I try to pick a couple per city) makes getting tables, impromptu meetings, etc much easier to set up.
If you view tipping as an obligation it sucks, but once you view it as a chance to get what you want it is great.
(In the case of Beijing, the police were just friendly and no tip was expected. The hotel staff I'd tipped (concierge, etc) were the preparation; it was the #4 guy at hotel (director of guest experience; reports to GM) who helped me. He is senior enough that I didn't tip him, but did get him rewarded through Starwood, and will bring him a suitable gift next time I'm in Beijing -- presumably a bottle of alcohol of some kind not commonly available in China, or some other US thing)
If you have the money to tip for such amounts. All others will just the lower quality service.
Coming from a Western European country that does not have much tipping, I think I like egalitarian customer service more ;).
(Not meant as a personal attack, just to point out that it's not feasible for everyone to do this.)
I'm actually glad that people visually like me (techie upper middle class white American business traveler) seem to have a good reputation worldwide for tipping well -- it means I get service as if I'd tip well even beforehand.
What would suck is being a black guy or otherwise profile as not likely to tip (French?) but being personally willing to tip. In that case, you probably tip initially before service.
Some people just want to provide good service and/or be nice people without the expectation of a monetary reward. I'd much rather have those people serving me than the ones who require bribes. I really don't want to turn all interactions into business transactions, I don't think that makes the world a better place and it encourages an extreme form of classicism where the only people welcome are the people who can afford ever increasing bribes every single place they go.
I also really don't want "impromptu meetings" when I'm trying to eat my dinner with my dinner companions.