Title is basically click bait, and reasonably insulting. The laptop is "bad" by some metrics (build quality/speed) and better by others (open hardware/software/hackability).
Look at Android phones now. Midrange phones come with more RAM, a comparable or better screen resolution (in 5"), and frequently offer dual band WiFi. [0]
Sure, you can't upgrade anything on the phone and you're lucky if even the kernel source code is released. But the Allwinner A64 chip Olimex is using has crap support in Linux anyway: you won't have hardware accelerated 2D or 3D.
And please, arguments of "it's modular" don't hold water. You can't upgrade the EMMC because it's not socketed. Ditto for RAM and WiFi chipset. So the only "upgrade" path is to replace the entire PCB.
iFixit regularly skewer Apple for putting everything on one board. Conceivably you could upgrade a MacBook by replacing the entire logic board, but no one seriously considers this.
Why not just buy a Raspberry Pi and a laptop shell like the Motorola Atrix? You can buy new old stock for around $50, and every other month there's a kick starter to create a USB3 version for ~$100 [1]
> it also has practical benefits if you are looking to build on the design to say, integrate an fpga.
Okay, what prevents me from designing my own PCB to replace the one in my phone? I can measure the physical dimensions, look up the datasheet for the LCD screen and camera connector and get a new board made.
Since this isn't very practical, no one does it.
It's going to cost far more than any reasonable person would spend to manufacture a modified PCB with an FPGA for this laptop.
If you're going to tell me "well the design is open so you can kickstart it as an alternative" then I'd invite you to ask the OpenMoko guys about how many units they sold. [0]
For anyone who wants a "modular" laptop, just buy one of the above HDMI/USB "lapdocks" and Velcro the Raspberry Pi to the back of the LCD. In the long run it will be just as robust and "modular" as this Olimex product.
I previously worked on getting Debian+E17 running on the OpenMoko, so I'm not just talking out my ass on this.
I think, these are just argument why this isn't a good fit for you.
However it's not really a good argument that this is a bad thing in every use case. Calling this a "bad" laptop when the only other laptop that's open to this degree that I'm aware of is bunnie's novena seems a bit silly.
Building on an established design is going to be far easier than bringing up a new PCB. I'd estimate you could get prototypes of this board (6 layer) made for <<1000USD.
If I needed embedded compute, for an instrument I was designing for low volume manufacture I'd consider these boards. If nothing else, I could probably get them fabbed myself if necessary/desirable.
I can see many use cases like this. As well as the fact that some users just philosophically prefer computers whose design is as open as possible.
You can easily count a percentage of open source in your laptop. If your goal is for instance avoid backdoors/surveillance, I would say this is a "very good" laptop, while a COTS laptop would be "bad". As the parent says, good or bad depends on the metric.
"if you want a bad laptop" is insulting for two reasons:
- Nobody "wants" a bad laptop, since that contradicts the definition of badness. A more accurate, less insulting phrasing would be "if you can put up with a bad laptop", i.e. there's an associated cost which you may or may not consider worth it.
- The laptop's clearly not "bad" in some objective sense, since nobody would have put in the effort if it were. It's probably subjectively bad to many people, in which case it's clearly not meant for them, but that's a property of the person (or person/laptop relation) rather than of the laptop.
>The laptop's clearly not "bad" in some objective sense
11.6 inch, 1366 x 768 pixel display, an Allwinner A64 ARM Cortex-A53 quad-core processor with Mali-400MP2 graphics, 1GB of RAM, 4GB of eMMC storage
Everything about that is objectively bad. Those are the regular specs any piece of consumer hardware would have over ten years ago. I'm sure an ancient Pentium 4 would simply crush that processor.
>It's probably subjectively bad to many people, in which case it's clearly not meant for them
What kind of a public would this laptop have? With those specs you can barely run a web browser.
So fundamentally what the author is saying is that this laptop is bad is a way that it was never meant to be good. And that's what makes the title click bait because the author is clearly aware of this.
Clearly it was never meant to be as good as a MacBook Pro.
It was meant to be good as an open source laptop (which it is, as one of the few open laptop designs that exists).
> 11.6 inch, 1366 x 768 pixel display, an Allwinner A64 ARM Cortex-A53 quad-core processor with Mali-400MP2 graphics, 1GB of RAM, 4GB of eMMC storage
Nothing about that affects what I said.
> What kind of a public would this laptop have?
Before getting my current libreboot X60, my workhorse was an OLPC XO-1: 7.5" screen @ 1200x900, 433MHz AMD Geode CPU with integrated graphics, 256MB RAM and 1GB onboard storage. That sounds like a similar sort of spec, and it served me very well for many years; the battery life and sunlight-readable screen were especially nice, as I could use it while sat in the local park.
> With those specs you can barely run a web browser.
Web browsers have been around for decades; I'm sure it's fine for accessing information (the original intent of the Web). Maybe it can't run the latest bloatware, or support spying/ad platforms like Facebook, but I'd count that as a feature ;)
I just read Ben Parr's Captivology, highly recommend btw. He points out negative headlines grab more short-term attention.
The problem is a vie this article and the concept is that negativity grabs our attention because we're wired to detect and process threats...
That means instead of neg attention grabbing us then us reading the article with an open interested intellectual mind, we are drawn to read the article and look for and perceive its information as threatening. To disarm it.
That ends up wasting everyone's time.
In general we should expect fully open systems like this to lag highly capitalized operations somewhat. And we should all, generally, use this as a reference point for improvements using our unique skills.
And that happens somewhat, except for the fact we're approach the article with our mind in the wrong state thanks to the "threateningly" headline.
>These are headlines that have a definite negative slant.
But also definite true one. Wine has always been short of the promise it made (except for specific, select, apps), and the laptop is bad on any metric that matters except the "I can update it to make it have a less bad processor when that becomes available for it".
How does that have any relation to being open source? I'm currently using a second-hand laptop, but I specifically paid more for it because it is "Respects Your Freedom" certified (from https://minifree.org )
While I certainly don't want to take business away from Minifree: If you are up for refurbishing the laptop yourself, you can substantially beat Minifree's prices. Especially for older models (that Minifree no longer sells) like the X60 that are easy to install Libreboot on compared to newer models that require a separate SPI programmer.
Also, FWIW, Minifree no longer seeks the RYF certification nor advertises it on existing products. I don't expect them to respect your freedom any less, but because of the FSF/Libreboot conflict they no longer seek the cert.
Yeah, I got this machine before the current drama; in fact it's an X60, which I bought as soon as it was announced (when minifree was "gluglug"); mostly to avoid installing libreboot myself, since I don't trust myself not to brick things :P
To me, the biggest impediment to the open laptop is people have been conditioned to complain about size and weight beyond the point where it is likely to matter for their use case. Sure there are use cases where the difference in mass and bulk between a Thinkpad X1 and something the size of a Thinkpad P effect utility. Much of the time they don't.
Laptops have evolved a lot since my first laptop...a used ex corporate travelling salesman's Toshiba Satellite with a 386SX. At about seven pounds and two inches thick, it was still somewhat svelte by current laptop standards when I obtained in 1997. In 2001 when I purchased my first laptop, a $1000 would get you about the same...and that was the cheapest laptop you could buy and only if it was on sale. For another grand and a half or two you could knock about a pound and a half off the weight...yes three grand for a four and a half pound laptop. Laptops have evolved quite a bit since then.
But humans and the physical environment have not. Sure, side by side, it's easy to experience the phyiscal differences between a six pound box of electronics and a three pound box of electronics and to imagine how much happier the smaller box will make you. And that's most of the reason for smaller and lighter laptops, someone standing in the store imagining how much happier they'll be and opening their wallet a little wider.
Unless you enjoy walking or walk to stay healthy. Then two pounds more or less matter. A lot. For your health, go light, and take fewer taxis.
I know what some of you are thinking: "carrying extra weight will be even healthier" - but also unpleasant enough that you won't actually walk much if you weigh yourself down that much.
You don't spend a lot of time traveling do you? I upgraded my Macbook about a year ago, and shaving off those 1.5 or 2 pounds saved my back so much. When you're moving cities every few days, walking through massive airports and hiking windy side streets to find the hotel your colleague booked that was "right on the main drag" but is actually 200m up the hill you learn to really love even that little extra weight being gone.
The extra space in a bag when you're completely carry on is a huge benefit as well since everything fits under the seat in front of you a bit easier, so you can board faster and sit down quicker.
Most people don't spend a lot of time traveling. Some people do. There are different use cases. I spend a fair amount of time processing images. My laptop has 1.7 teraflops and 4GB of Quadro GPU. It's also not a typical use case. That's the difference between a ThinkPad X1 and a Thinkpad P.
As I mentioned, in the early 1990's the magically light laptop for Simpsoning through airports was 6+ pounds and 2" thick. What's changed besides raw compute is expectations not physiology.
I'll say that a lot more people spend time with their laptops on their shoulders (every person in NYC, SF, London, Hong Kong, Chicago, Paris, etc.) than use their laptop for large render projects. A Macbook Air can handle even large still photos without breaking a sweat (I've done 1GB photoshop files while playing Spotify no problem). If you're doing 4K video it's another story.
Most attempts I've seen have been on the very small size (netbook-like), so there should be room up from there? Given how many "traditionally shaped" laptops are still sold I'm not sure the demand for lighter and thinner actually affects attempts at open-source ones, especially since initial adopters are going to be compromising anyways.
Part of the critique in the article was form factor mass and bulk (compute was the other part). The standard for the critique was rooted more in how laptops are marketed than in human physiology.
34 comments
[ 0.20 ms ] story [ 37.1 ms ] threadLook at Android phones now. Midrange phones come with more RAM, a comparable or better screen resolution (in 5"), and frequently offer dual band WiFi. [0]
Sure, you can't upgrade anything on the phone and you're lucky if even the kernel source code is released. But the Allwinner A64 chip Olimex is using has crap support in Linux anyway: you won't have hardware accelerated 2D or 3D.
And please, arguments of "it's modular" don't hold water. You can't upgrade the EMMC because it's not socketed. Ditto for RAM and WiFi chipset. So the only "upgrade" path is to replace the entire PCB.
iFixit regularly skewer Apple for putting everything on one board. Conceivably you could upgrade a MacBook by replacing the entire logic board, but no one seriously considers this.
Why not just buy a Raspberry Pi and a laptop shell like the Motorola Atrix? You can buy new old stock for around $50, and every other month there's a kick starter to create a USB3 version for ~$100 [1]
[0] http://m.gsmarena.com/xiaomi_redmi_4_prime-8263.php
[1] https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/andromium/the-superbook...
Not only is this philosophically "good" it also has practical benefits if you are looking to build on the design to say, integrate an fpga.
Okay, what prevents me from designing my own PCB to replace the one in my phone? I can measure the physical dimensions, look up the datasheet for the LCD screen and camera connector and get a new board made.
Since this isn't very practical, no one does it.
It's going to cost far more than any reasonable person would spend to manufacture a modified PCB with an FPGA for this laptop.
If you're going to tell me "well the design is open so you can kickstart it as an alternative" then I'd invite you to ask the OpenMoko guys about how many units they sold. [0]
For anyone who wants a "modular" laptop, just buy one of the above HDMI/USB "lapdocks" and Velcro the Raspberry Pi to the back of the LCD. In the long run it will be just as robust and "modular" as this Olimex product.
I previously worked on getting Debian+E17 running on the OpenMoko, so I'm not just talking out my ass on this.
[0] https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04
However it's not really a good argument that this is a bad thing in every use case. Calling this a "bad" laptop when the only other laptop that's open to this degree that I'm aware of is bunnie's novena seems a bit silly.
Building on an established design is going to be far easier than bringing up a new PCB. I'd estimate you could get prototypes of this board (6 layer) made for <<1000USD.
If I needed embedded compute, for an instrument I was designing for low volume manufacture I'd consider these boards. If nothing else, I could probably get them fabbed myself if necessary/desirable.
I can see many use cases like this. As well as the fact that some users just philosophically prefer computers whose design is as open as possible.
Except that it's not a tightly coupled design so there's enough space to add more boards.
Somebody that only want to play with gadgets shouldn't review something he has no understanding of.
I can try to convince a rock to split itself with any attitude I believe in, but I'll still be more effective with a hammer.
* Is the OS, OS? [Y/n]
* Is all software OS? [Y/n]
* Is all firmware OS? [Y/n]
* Is all hardware OS? [Y/n]
You can easily count a percentage of open source in your laptop. If your goal is for instance avoid backdoors/surveillance, I would say this is a "very good" laptop, while a COTS laptop would be "bad". As the parent says, good or bad depends on the metric.
- Nobody "wants" a bad laptop, since that contradicts the definition of badness. A more accurate, less insulting phrasing would be "if you can put up with a bad laptop", i.e. there's an associated cost which you may or may not consider worth it.
- The laptop's clearly not "bad" in some objective sense, since nobody would have put in the effort if it were. It's probably subjectively bad to many people, in which case it's clearly not meant for them, but that's a property of the person (or person/laptop relation) rather than of the laptop.
11.6 inch, 1366 x 768 pixel display, an Allwinner A64 ARM Cortex-A53 quad-core processor with Mali-400MP2 graphics, 1GB of RAM, 4GB of eMMC storage
Everything about that is objectively bad. Those are the regular specs any piece of consumer hardware would have over ten years ago. I'm sure an ancient Pentium 4 would simply crush that processor.
>It's probably subjectively bad to many people, in which case it's clearly not meant for them
What kind of a public would this laptop have? With those specs you can barely run a web browser.
Clearly it was never meant to be as good as a MacBook Pro.
It was meant to be good as an open source laptop (which it is, as one of the few open laptop designs that exists).
Nothing about that affects what I said.
> What kind of a public would this laptop have?
Before getting my current libreboot X60, my workhorse was an OLPC XO-1: 7.5" screen @ 1200x900, 433MHz AMD Geode CPU with integrated graphics, 256MB RAM and 1GB onboard storage. That sounds like a similar sort of spec, and it served me very well for many years; the battery life and sunlight-readable screen were especially nice, as I could use it while sat in the local park.
> With those specs you can barely run a web browser.
Web browsers have been around for decades; I'm sure it's fine for accessing information (the original intent of the Web). Maybe it can't run the latest bloatware, or support spying/ad platforms like Facebook, but I'd count that as a feature ;)
I'm not sure what's going on over there but it seems that maybe they're A/B testing with these insulting headlines or something.
I thought this recent headline in particular was quite insulting: "Wine 2.0 is out, ready to disappoint you once again" [0]
edit: Just noticed both articles are by the same author.
[0]: http://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/1/26/14402028/wi...
The problem is a vie this article and the concept is that negativity grabs our attention because we're wired to detect and process threats...
That means instead of neg attention grabbing us then us reading the article with an open interested intellectual mind, we are drawn to read the article and look for and perceive its information as threatening. To disarm it.
That ends up wasting everyone's time.
In general we should expect fully open systems like this to lag highly capitalized operations somewhat. And we should all, generally, use this as a reference point for improvements using our unique skills.
And that happens somewhat, except for the fact we're approach the article with our mind in the wrong state thanks to the "threateningly" headline.
So great observations on your part!
Well, it now allows me to use the same Office version (2013) that I have to produce and share documents with, so I am far from disappointed!
> ... disappoint you...
These are headlines that have a definite negative slant.
They aren't something to foster discussion, but something that tugs on the emotions of the reader.
That's a sure fire tactic for pissing people off.
But also definite true one. Wine has always been short of the promise it made (except for specific, select, apps), and the laptop is bad on any metric that matters except the "I can update it to make it have a less bad processor when that becomes available for it".
It's an Allwinner SoC. I doubt there's anything open about it, they probably won't even give you the GPL'd code you need to run it.
Are those metrics people actually care about in a laptop?
And even if they are, this would still be a bad laptop by laptop-y metrics.
You can have both good and open, this just ain't it.
Also, FWIW, Minifree no longer seeks the RYF certification nor advertises it on existing products. I don't expect them to respect your freedom any less, but because of the FSF/Libreboot conflict they no longer seek the cert.
Laptops have evolved a lot since my first laptop...a used ex corporate travelling salesman's Toshiba Satellite with a 386SX. At about seven pounds and two inches thick, it was still somewhat svelte by current laptop standards when I obtained in 1997. In 2001 when I purchased my first laptop, a $1000 would get you about the same...and that was the cheapest laptop you could buy and only if it was on sale. For another grand and a half or two you could knock about a pound and a half off the weight...yes three grand for a four and a half pound laptop. Laptops have evolved quite a bit since then.
But humans and the physical environment have not. Sure, side by side, it's easy to experience the phyiscal differences between a six pound box of electronics and a three pound box of electronics and to imagine how much happier the smaller box will make you. And that's most of the reason for smaller and lighter laptops, someone standing in the store imagining how much happier they'll be and opening their wallet a little wider.
I know what some of you are thinking: "carrying extra weight will be even healthier" - but also unpleasant enough that you won't actually walk much if you weigh yourself down that much.
The extra space in a bag when you're completely carry on is a huge benefit as well since everything fits under the seat in front of you a bit easier, so you can board faster and sit down quicker.
As I mentioned, in the early 1990's the magically light laptop for Simpsoning through airports was 6+ pounds and 2" thick. What's changed besides raw compute is expectations not physiology.