Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?
I have been looking to change jobs over the last 8 months. I am in a product management leadership position at my current job, and looking to shift to a similar role in either a slightly smaller company or in a different industry. However, I have found it extremely hard to accomplish this. I have no idea why I am failing in final rounds, but in most instances the feedback has been "You are a great candidate, and we would like you to interview with this other role. But this particular role is not a good fit"
What am I doing wrong ? Few facts about me" - I have over 12 years of work experience across 4 companies (well known brands) - I am in my mid 30s - I am Indian, and FOB, with an accent (not a heavy accent though)
I have run completely out of ideas now. I have probably spoken with 100 people during the course of 15 interviews and I haven't gotten any feedback on what I am doing wrong. I absolutely HATE my current job. I get depressed thinking about working in my current job for the foreseeable future. But looks like I don't have any recourse. I am almost thinking of halting my job search and finding some kind of hobby to keep me occupied and keep my mind off work. Any advice would be appreciated.
248 comments
[ 1155 ms ] story [ 4637 ms ] threadI will say, in my experience, a companies interpretation of what a Product Manager sometimes varies like British weather.. It can feel like a Product Manager is something new, but they've existed in their traditional capacity for AT LEAST 25 years (using a friend of mine as an example).
But recently I've seen a trend for Product Manager job descriptions to vary more.. Sometimes being so vague as to describe some sort of wistful 'jack-of-all-trades turd-polisher'.
Perhaps it's as simple as that. You're applying as an experienced Product Manager to businesses that don't understand the role as a veteran like you does.
You also describe yourself as a Product Manager 'leader'. So you manage other Product Managers? I would think that 'smaller companies' have very few or even one Product Manager, and maybe you're seen as overqualified for this?
Good luck.
Also, do you not want to interview for that other role they're offering you? If so, that's fine -- but then feel good about the fact that you're the one making that choice.
Most companies value referrals much higher than unknown applicants. If you have a friend who can vouch for your work ethic and can give you straight forward feedback, that will be the best route. You'll iterate much quicker. Also friends may give you insight on the inside of their companies about how decision-making is going. Once you have sizable work experience and sizable network, you shouldn't be doing the shotgun approach. In my very first job I reached out to a 3rd party recruiter and they helped me get a job in 2 weeks from me doing it on my own for 2 months (not a software dev). After that, my jobs have all been referral based.
Assuming that person stays long enough. I would expect either high turnover or low morale in such workplace. Partly because people resent being lied to and this is apparent, partly because the company is full of people on positions they did not wanted to do.
Noticed that too. The job ad will have Haskell, OCaml etc listed but all that shop does is crank out Java.
A lot of success comes down to dogged persistence. Here's a great book on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B010MH9V3W/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...
Talent x effort = skill
Skill x effort = achievement
Grit is required in life. Watch out for claims of otherwise
Grit is not just working hard, but sticking to it for months. Doing what you love and staying in love.
There's a pyramid of goals. Concrete ones on the bottom, like getting up at 8am. As you move up, it gets more abstract. The very top one is the ultimate goal. Grit is holding the same ultimate goal without changing for a very long time.
Grit means doing mid and lower level support goals. "Positive fantasizing" (not focusing on lower and middle level goals) is people without grit do. Short term payoff is feeling good with long term cost of failing.
Story of Buffet's advise: write down 25 career goals. Circle top 5 and do them. Actively ignore others as distractions. Point is time is limited.
Expect to change low level goals. Keep the ultimate goal in mind. Improvise, adapt, overcome.
Grit grows. 70 year olds grittier than 20 year olds. Grit can change.
Grit stages: interest (love doing), practice to be better (improve) than yesterday for years (zero in on weakness), purpose so that work matters (to me and others), and hope (in every stage) so that we get up when knocked down.
People are happier and perform better when their work fit their interest.
Practice: set a stretch goal in one weak area. Seek out challenges not yet met. Seek feedback on what's wrong. Repeat.
Deliberate practice at most one hour at a time, 3-5 hours per day. Deliberate practice is not the same as flow. Challenge above skill level. Requires a lot of effort.
Grittier people experience more deliberate practice and flow. Practice is not supposed to be fun. More effortful practice is more enjoyable (thrill of getting better).
Flow is when not analyzing because most feedback are positive. Deliberate practice is for preparation and flow is for performance.
Quality of deliberate practice is more important than length. 3-5 max hours per day.
Develop a habit of practice, a routine. The author describes rereading last days draft to start off the day. If there's a routine, getting started to practice is easy to start.
Don't be ashamed to make errors. Important to practicing. Emotion-free mistake making.
Purpose starts off selfish, but later must effect other people. Evolutionary roots in both for happiness. People who cooperate are more likely to survive than loners.
Reflect how work help society.
Hope in grit means believing my effort will make tomorrow better. Own efforts can improve the future. I resolve to make tomorrow better.
It isn't suffering that leads to hopelessness, it is suffering that one cannot control.
The optimist are just as likely to encounter bad events as pessimists. But optimists search for temporary causes for the suffering. Pessimists assume permanent causes to blame.
Pessimists say "I'm a loser", a permanent situation. Optimists say "I mismanaged my time," fixable issues.
Pessimists more likely to be depressed and less healthy.
Optimists think of failures as lessons.
Subjective interpretation to objective events give rise to feelings.
CBT aims to treat by helping people to think more objectives by observing self talk and change the bad behavior.
When you keep searching for ways to better the situation, you stand a better chance of finding them. When you stop searching, you are guaranteed to not find them.
Failure is a cue to try harder.
No road is without bumps. Having a growth mindset (believe intelligence is changeable), you believe you can learn to do better. Growth mindset students are much grittier. The opposite is a fixed mindset about intelligence.
People who believe it is their effort rather than natural talent are grittier.
People often have both mindsets. It's important to watch self when slipped up and bring the right mindset.
Grittierness require...
You mentioned that the feedback you've received has always suggested that you're a great candidate, but they see you in a different role. What kind of role is it? And, is it possible that that role really may be a better fit for you?
If so, you have a choice. Either change careers or try to take corrective action and become a better fit for a PM gig.
Good luck and again, I'm very sorry. Feel free to email me - my address is in my profile.
That and just keep trying. Its a numbers game though, if you aren't getting any offers there must be something wrong with your interviews.
My understanding is that companies won't give you feedback because they are afraid to get sued. So don't expect any feedback from them. Read some books/websites on how to improve your skills and do a few mock interviews.
If you can get on the other side of the table by interviewing candidates at your current job, it might help build confidence.
I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for that I really wanted. In the end, it's about perception and desire. If you don't go in acting like you deserve the job and can be an asset to the company, you are not likely to get an offer.
You also have to be able to sell yourself as the perfect fit. Trust me, no one is, but if you believe you can become it, it will show and they will believe it too. That's when the offers come in.
Go through your skill sets, really step back and evaluate if it's up to date enough for these newer positions you are going for.
Also, if you go into an interview with the attitude that you hate your current job, it will show. You need to make peace with whatever your current job is, find something positive about it, and reflect on that. This will help you to be positive in your interviews and talk well about your current company, which employers want to hear.
1. being able to demonstrate excitement is a huge bonus. i've interviewed a decent number of people. on average 0 were excited about any of the companies. maybe a third were what i could consider genuinely excited or passionate about the technology or the position.
2. taking a few minutes to ask what problems they have struggled with, or what they're working on now, gives you a "serendipitous" platform to sell yourself: take that opportunity to work with them and prove yourself.
I once said this to a friend. He then suggested maybe I wasn't being as ambitious as I could be in the roles I was seeking. Gave me some food for thought.
> I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for that I really wanted.
the point is not that "i get every job i interviewed for because i'm that good" -- i think the point is "i get every job i really want because the enthusiasm fuels the interview".
i can say with certainty it has nothing to do with a lack of ambition. enthusiasm is the only thing i can attribute to offers i've received for positions i wouldn't consider myself qualified for. :)
I'm not reading that in the quoted comment. But still
> "i get every job i really want because the enthusiasm fuels the interview".
why lead with that, to display confidence? Very well, interesting though that confidence is the argument to be made and so the presentation of the response has to agree with the argument. But that still lacks some sympathy and isn't constructive, when it's addressed at the lack of confidence (which admittedly seem obvious from posting about the issue on HN).
> nothing to do with a lack of ambition. enthusiasm is the only thing
Interesting, I'm not aware of the difference. I'd say ambition subsumes enthusiasm.
i can understand where your coming from: there is probably truth to the idea that... in general, if you are ambitious you will be enthusiastic or vice versa. but:
1. they are not mutually exclusive. to apply for a job you are underqualified for and disinterested in would be both ambitious and unenthusiastic. in practice this might not really happen but...
2. for the purpose of the interview, any enthusiasm is useless if you don't have the charisma to project it. ambition is more of a factor for you to internalize. it is relative to your own experience. enthusiasm is different. it's more important to externalize. i care if i'm ambitious, the interviewer cares if i'm enthusiastic. i don't want to hire someone who doesn't love the job- and if they love it i don't care if they're overqualified (lacking ambition).
> why lead with that, to display confidence?
in my experience, this again is more of an internal thing. it's not that externalizing confidence is valuable (probably more of a liability, really). it's that confidence manifests itself in other ways that are inspiring or attractive. for instance, i am pretty humble and sometimes nervous; i hate selling myself. but when i'm genuinely excited for a position, it's easier to suppress the instinct not to brag.
> that still lacks some sympathy and isn't constructive ...
your mindset needs to be "i'm really excited to apply for this job because it's totally awesome and i can kick it's ass" -- not "i'm applying for this job because i really hate my current job". the right type of confidence and enthusiasm will only come from the former. i realize this argument is kind of... philosophical?, just trying my best to generalize what's lead to any success i've come by :)
In the history of human interaction, has anyone said that and not then followed it up with something arrogant and dickish?
> I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for that I really wanted
Of course you have. And the jobs you didn't get you later decided you must not have really wanted enough. I wonder how you would have felt about those jobs if you had gotten them.
We get it, you're a super impressive person. You can stop trying so hard to impress us now.
Or the one that exists in the stereotypes and imaginations of people futilely trying to find discrimination where there is none?
I remember a comedian saying that he likes to say "I don't want to sound racist, but" and then follow it up with something that actually wasn't racist. As in "I don't want to sound racist, but do you have the time?" or "I don't want to sound racist, but can you tell me the way to High St?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI4AC50n6cU
Of course not. I take that to mean "what I have to say I cannot say in a way that is not dickish, so understand that I'm not doing it with the purpose of hurting you".
Ignore marketing yourself in the interview process all you like, but you're doing that at your own peril.
Thanks for your account of anecdotal evidence. The thread needs more observation bias.
edit: I think you are onto something in terms of motivation (vs professional care), don't get my sarcasm wrong, I simply doubt you ever applied to jobs you really really didn't want. Call that survivorship bias or whatever.
- team-fit: this is a big one specially for smaller companies, they wanna be 100% sure this new hire will be just like everyone else so they can all get along, so next time you're doing an onsite do a quick look up of people you'll be interviewing to find as much as about their hobbies, side-projects, etc. as you can and talk about those things
- your presentation: how you carry yourself and behave is another thing that only applies to onsites, you gotta be confident or let your inner geek out if that's who you are, acting super nervous and non-confident sends the wrong signal
- answering the questions the way they want you to, it might have been a while since you last successfully interviewed and got a job so brush up on what the trendy interview questions are for role nowadays, go to Glassdoor look up similar roles and see what the questions were and what answers were the best, you don't wanna deviate too far from those, but you gotta treat like the ACT it's bs for the most parts but that'll determine if you end up at MIT or the city community college.
Sometimes the resume "oversells" the applicant. I wonder if they are expecting someone a bit more knowledgeable and skilled based on how you present yourself. This is just a guess of course, but do you feel the resume truly represents (and does not overstate) your accomplishments?
How about price? You say you've worked for 4 "brands", so I'd expect you are paid well. Maybe they all like you, but not as much as the others when comparing price and experience of others.
Your mention accent, so that is obviously at least on your mind. Doesn't sound like a huge factor if you're making it onsite 50%.
These problems can be tricky. Stay at it, and maybe ask a past interviewer for some helpful feedback. They will likely be reluctant to give it to you (legal reasons, nothing to gain but goodwill), but worth a shot.
Good luck.
I ran into this problem myself. One of the headhunting services rated me as an excellent programmer (I managed to get a sneak peek at the sheet that got sent to the places I recruited at). I think I'm a decent programmer - I wrote a DSL that converts Julia to verilog - but not having any real industry experience, my whiteboarding sucks and I don't do things like "default to hash" even though I actually do that when I program.
Consequently, I got no offers and repeatedly got told they were "looking for someone more senior". Probably for OP, being Asian also totally hurts, because as an overrepresented minority, hirers are looking for any reason to not take him.
I'd tell the OP, try to get hired by a friend.
Otherwise, as others say, just be persistent. Sometimes you have a run of bad luck but it will pass. Don't read too much into it.
Your article talks about what you want and how you feel.
Consider what those companies want and how they feel and try to determine why they failed to pick you over another candidate.
Talk to people you trust and ask for honest feedback on your weaknesses. Compare those to the things you learned during the interview.
Improve your skill, your communication style, and your contacts.
Continue to drive for the role you want, you will get it when you shape yourself into someone that can genuinely convince people you have the right stuff.
http://americandigest.org/mt-archives/5minute_arguments/mike...
I suspect it may be your interview style and recommend asking a close confidante about it. For PM type role, it is more about the ability to influence and earning trust. Keep trying! We all have rough patches !
To my view, the interview is to screen out the "business" types who are just repeating or rehashing well-known processes you can get from watching a few podcasts and read a couple books. Teach me something I do not know (I am not a professional product manager, so if the person I am hiring cannot tell me something novel then they shouldn't be a professional product manager either).
Some thoughts.. I'm Indian-bodied but was born and raised in the states. When I was in my early 20s I lived on and off in India for about 5 years (about 6 months at a time). So I've had a decent amount of exposure to Indians of all types (Indian and American born). I've also worked with a fair amount of Indians over the course of the last few years.
These may not be the case with you, but as someone who has had a fair amount of exposure to Indians form India, and as someone who has coached and interviewed a fair amount of Indians for a variety of roles, the following may help:
+A lot of it boils down to personality. I've noticed a very wide spectrum of attitudes coming from Indians. I think a fair amount of introspection and awareness about how you are coming across to the other side is a really powerful tool to employ. I've seen a lot of ego and general lack of sophistication and at times class from some Indians that I've met, and I'm certainly not saying that this may be the case with you, but it may be worth considering if there's something about your mannerism / tone that maybe rubbing people the wrong way.
+Being a FOB language skills can be a natural weakness but judging by your post this doesn't seem to be the case. I think being yourself and honing your personality will have more impact, but taking a little extra care in how you communicate can really work wonders.
+You say you're in a product management role, there's generally an axis of management skill vs. technical ability. Some companies may be looking for one or the other, and in the interview you may or may not be emphasizing the one they're looking for.
+And finally there's leadership ability, particularly important in management roles. Have you led your teams to success in your career? Reflect about what got you to that point, and try and channel that into your interviews.
+Above all, stay the course if you can. If you're convinced you're on the path you want to go, then persist. If you want something else and have the runway to pursue it, then a change of environment is a great first step towards finding your next step into something that motivates you.
No offense intended in any of the above, and best of luck to you!
The thing with stereotypes is that it lingers. But people from different generations might do away with that
Now, a Project Management position in a smaller company might require different skills. Being a Product Owner of a feature in a bigger product with broken down requirements coming from upstream is a very different job than POing at a smaller company where you have to come up with requirements based on goals.
The last company I worked for interviewed some founder of a Czech IT agency for a lead dev position and his resume seemed awesome.
He worked over 15 years in IT, founded a company that had 10 employees etc.
But the first thing he said in the interview was "What job do you have? I only accept CTO"
whelp.
It was HE that would be taking the job -- so why not make sure it's the job he wanted in the first place?
If he was desperate for any job AND still said that, then he would be indeed self absorbed.
We do not know you so I will have to work on the little you put on the OP... maybe during the on-site interview you come out as a bit too desperate about changing job? or too whiney about the current job? Or both?
Try to consider if this could actually be a factor: I am sure that "what do you think of your current position" is pretty much a criteria in considering a new hire, even if it is not necessarily prominent during the interview.
I'm lucky enough that my day job isn't that stressful that I do not get "burned out" when I get home to work on my personal projects.
I love my job and I love working with the people in the company. The culture is very good and not toxic. However, trying something new or building something fun, it is not possible always within the job. It's fixing bugs; figuring out processes, etc. But as long as I am not burned out at work, I still find a few hours every night to do something I really want.
Without my personal projects I would be bored to death.
Why not interview for this other role?
It sounds like people like you. They want to hire you. But they perhaps they want to hire you for a slightly different role. Why not consider this role?
First step would be to ask, at least, the 7 on-sites for feedback. If it's insufficient, ask for more. Explain that you're having trouble at the last hurdle and that their feedback will help. Take that feedback and integrate it in to your approach. Getting feedback can be difficult, especially when it's just you. Consider giving it to some friends and/or mentors to get a clearer view. Choose someone that can bring the most amount of objectivity.
Otherwise... Attend some meetups. Consider blogging and producing some content. Build a profile that projects where you want to be (you should consider, a little, what that might be). If you're passionate and visible in a domain, combined with good skills and experience, then you're gold to these organizations. Often they will come to you.
Also consider being proactive to companies that you want to work for. Engage and see if they have any jobs. Many roles get filled without a Job Description seeing the light of day. Part of doing the above should achieve that.
Finally, consider tackling the problem in a structured way. Interview for a job that's well within your capabilities. Apply for roles that stretch you. These give you a broader understanding on the needs out there in the market (and hopefully what you're capable of).
Good luck.
Really? It's been my experience that companies will not give feedback, at least anything that could be considered detailed feedback, as a blanket policy. The perception at least is that giving feedback opens up the company to potential litigation and provides the company no benefit.
An interview process is a huge investment for a person, especially if it's face to face. We're talking hours, maybe days. Not giving feedback is really an insult.
A poor interview experience is a massive miss for a company. If they don't see that, then I'd take that as a bad sign. Equally, a good interview experience can be a huge positive.
Word will get around, and on Glassdoor. That's a very real risk, significantly more than the threat of litigation. This is expecially true in creative, engineering, etc roles.
The solution is good interview process and training, not a blanket no-feedback rule. That's a race to the bottom.
One place I interviewed at, an educational institution, apparently had some very serious behind-the-scenes arguments and some hurt feelings between friends, because most of the interviewers wanted me for the job but one of the decision makers had already promised it to someone else. (Which is illegal, I might add.)
That's the closest I've been to "Here's why you didn't get the job..."
[edit] I'm not including the times someone's discriminated against me for daring to have a disability.
Companies that have declined to give me feedback after an interview include Google, Facebook, small startups and medium sized places. I have not seen any evidence that you are correct.
Even if someone does provide feedback, it usually can't be trusted, and often times, interviewers can't even articulate why they're passing certain candidates.
It seems people just don't like to be pinned down.
A freeform box for rejection rationale will probably never get a good response rate, because it's work for people to make up a plausible-sounding explanation for why they liked someone else more (and this explanation is rarely if ever reflective of reality; people make up intellectually-satisfying stories to justify their impulsive/emotional decisions). However, a radio box that offered rejection reasons like "bad technical fit", "bad culture fit", or "good candidate for the future; not enough slots right now" may see better response rates.
This despite the fact that they recruited me through their code jam, in which whether your code actually works is the only criterion.
Very few companies will provide specific, direct feedback even after a face-to-face interview. In fact, their HR has likely coached them not to.
I try to provide both positive and one factor that influenced it not being a match. This sometimes ends up causing problems for my employer, likely mostly because I don't do it well, but it helps me grow in having difficult conversations and I feel some feedback is the least I can do after the candidate spending so much time and energy. I've learned to ask people first, "is it ok if I share some frank feedback?"