Google Checkout Nightmare and the $126,000 phone call
I came to the end of my string after the 20ith something email when I got the message below. They have over $126,000 of my money and they won't even pick up phone to call me!
Hello P----,
Thank you for your reply. I understand you've shipped over 700 orders to your buyers. However, you've not sent us tracking numbers for those orders. Please send us proof of delivery (tracking numbers) so our specialists can initiate your payouts.
To clarify, we have contacted some of your buyer(s) and expect email confirmations once the goods are received.
In addition, at this time, we don't offer phone support for Google Checkout. We look forward to providing additional support options in the future. If you have specific questions, please reply to this email and we'll be happy to address them.
If you need immediate assistance, you can also visit the Merchant Help Center at https://checkout.google.com/support/sell or the Merchants Forum at http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/checkout-merchants?hl=en for frequently asked questions about Google Checkout.
Sincerely,
A------ The Google Checkout Team
124 comments
[ 6.7 ms ] story [ 212 ms ] threadThe second will definitely cost you more, but you may see the money sooner.
Only you can do the cost/benefit analysis.
A blog post with judicious images of their boilerplate emails, incredulity about how they seem to repeat the same thing over and over, a timeline, a punchy title (I kind of like "Grand Theft Google" but you could dial down the tabloidism several notches and still be effective), and seeding with a tech audience will work pretty well.
^^fixed that for you.
We have one of these threads it seems every week. Across their entire range of products, Google is pretty hostile to their users the second something doesn't work correctly. The only way to get any help besides their bullshit automated responses or forums is to have enough web traffic to embarrass them into helping you. Eventually Matt Cutts or someone else will swoop in, but if you can't find the right place to publicly bitch or don't have enough traffic, they clearly don't give a shit less.
I've seen it personally enough so that I'm no longer integrating any more of their products into my life. What happens if eg you get google voice, give everyone you know your google phone number, and something breaks? I don't run duckduckgo nor do I post on the front page of techcrunch so I will simply be SOL...
http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/2010/06/my-gmail-is-fast...
I have customers who spend $200k+/yr on adwords (pennies in Google's eyes) and barely get their own adwords rep.
Is it something that is hard to do ?
I'd actually turn my whole front page into a giant protest, and bank on my customers (roughly 2,500 of them if I did my math right) to help with the cause. I'd be up front with customers about my issues with Google Checkout, show a timeline, efforts made, and documentation (what you CAN show).
If you're truly in the right, and you truly jumped the hoops in proper form, then you have the goodwill and Google's cooperation to gain. Keeping in mind that your customers are iPad users, I believe they've shown in the past that they can be a pretty supportive and loud group of people.
Alternatively, not knowing what you've factored in as costs and how thin your margins are, I would look into authorize.net, braintree, and that beta program that was on here yesterday as other options for taking in payment. It looks like with the volume you're likely to do, it will pay to just absorb 2-3% in costs than deal with this issue constantly.
Also, shoot me an e-mail (in the profile). I know a couple unemployed architects in the SF area that used to work in woodshops. They might be able to help out.
1. Send them a letter with the tracking numbers.
2. Make the customer service rep give me his direct e-mail and phone number (extension) so I can send a copy of all the tracking numbers and keep calling him back to ask for an update, every single day.
3. I'd buy a plane ticket to California and visit them in their office, face to face, with all the proof inside an envelope with me.
This is 120k we're talking about, I'd do quite a lot to get all my money. Currently I am dealing with a company that owes me 5k estimated, maybe a bit more, and they're paying me $300 a week in small amounts and it's really pissing me off. I've already moved to a new company to work with, that is reliable and have been so far, but I really hate when shit like this happens.
Best of luck to ya :)
https://checkout.google.com/seller/policies.html
'You may not capture funds more than 24 hours before you fulfill the order. Fulfill means you have shipped the physical product, delivered the digital content, or performed the service.'
So I'm not surprised google has to do potentally damaging things to somehow make it all work.
The strange part to me is that they don't require and automate this buyer contact info & tracking number gathering from the start.
For what its worth, I've sold something like $50,000 on Paypal and the handful of issues I've had were resolved with quiet professionalism and reasonable timeliness, in much the same manner that I'd expect from e.g. a bank.
A couple months ago I was in a financial pinch and one of my bank accounts was overdrawn, while another one had funds in it. I printed a shipping label using Paypal, making sure to use the correct account. When I printed a second shipping label, I assumed it would use the most-recently-used account (the last 4 digits differed by only one number), but it instead defaulted to the overdrawn account.
Only a few minutes later, I noticed this and immediately called Paypal. They said that it was too late to cancel or assign a new source for the payment, even though I told them the payment would be rejected by my bank. I deposited from my other bank account to my Paypal account enough money to cover the charge, and they still couldn't cancel the debit to my overdrawn account. A few days later, I received an email message:
Your bank has declined the funds transfer because your account did not have sufficient funds available. We will automatically re-attempt this transfer in 3 business days. Please fund your bank account immediately to ensure this transaction can be completed.
What?! I already had enough money in my Paypal account to cover the charge, but they instead chose to recharge the same account in 3 days? I called them again as soon as I received this email, but they said they could not change this transaction, that it was their policy and that the process could not be altered. Three days later, lo and behold, it was declined again, and they finally took the money from my Paypal account. Meanwhile, my bank charged me $70 for the two declined charges, all for an under-$4 shipping label.
I will be avoiding Paypal in the future. That kind of inflexibility, poor service, and bad policy combines for an awful customer experience.
I guess it's a market that needs a shakeup.
If said payment processor serves as a Paypal replacement, I'll sign up in a heartbeat.
Edit: apgwoz also posted the link. The comments are over here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1430135
we do offer information to help you through your situation. just search on the terms "bankrupt screwed over"
If this is true then I think you should probably send out a nice letter to your customers and tell them that your refunding their money because Google is causing you grief, link to a blog post explaining the situation in details, and ask them to pay again via your new merchant provider. I think that if people saw the refund on their statement, then they'd pay again. Then you'd get something.
I think the lesson here is that you should never rely on a service / company who won't put any effort into customer support. I thought this was common sense?
I wish you to solve this and after that I suggest you to switch to Fastspring. They have really excellent customer support, that becomes very valuable when a lot of money are involved.
So, I'd recommend PayPal, given their services have been helping pay my salary for a number of years.
No problem with that for me, it's a security measure I can understand. I had to unlock the account and here is where the pain began.
Logging into my account to provide my information (ID, proof of residence, etc) I was always brought to a page asking me to verify the IBAN of my bank account. After entering it, an error was displayed, giving me a useless error code (something like error 1005) and with a short explanation "there was an internal problem, please try later". But trying later never worked, the error was always there, preventing me to unlock my account.
I started writing the support. They answered that I had to fill in my information to unlock my account. I told them that I could not do it because there was an internal error. They kept answering that I had to fill in my information to unlock it. This went on for a couple of weeks. What really pissed me off was that every time they answered (the support guy was always different), they always told me the same things, like they were not reading my emails at all.
I tried to call the support phone number for my country. There was an automatic voice with some steps to follow, including getting some authentication code for my account from the website. After all that, the automatic voice reminded me that my account was locked, as if I did not know that already. I never managed to speak with someone in person. That was the last drop, since loosing those 300$ would not have ruined my life, I switched to Fastspring never to come back. I've been really happy with them.
After I while I realized that I could have tried to call the US phone number. But I already switched, so I didn't care.
The honest truth is that we stick with PayPal because we're an Australian company who, as a business decision, take US dollars for our products. Setting up a merchant account in Australia that can take US dollars seems to be unheard of and practically impossible.
Though I'm sure you've heard of the Internet Filter and more recently the full recording of internet history at ISP levels for all customers. Australia has some catching up to do in general in regards to the internet and internet business.
The phone support wait was long, but I haven't really had any trouble since. Of course, I don't really let money build up in my paypal account; I'll spend it on hardware or move it to my bank account. it's pretty rare there's more than ten grand in paypal, and usually it's more like one to three grand, so that might make it easier.
As bad as Paypal is, at least they offer live phone support. With the products I sell, Google Checkout and Paypal aren't options, so even with all the red tape you must go through to get a merchants account, I'd still rather do that than use Google Checkout/Paypal.
I am not sure waiting on hold, voice mail hell, and talking to a support person is really a superior customer experience. I generally prefer email support, if it is fast and you get a case that can be tracked. This is not to say that it's not bad customer support, because it is bad customer support, but I don't think having Google add a massive bank of phone support people somewhere is going to help.
And I love correspondence by email as well, but it appears Google even goes to great lengths to avoid that (this case exempting).
And while Paypal hooked up Canadian merchants almost on day one, years after starting Google's system still can't handle that (which is why Canadians and many other nationalities can't sell on the market).
Although I've found this irritating at times too, I overall think it's a great choice (and business decision) for Google.
They are essentially saying "we build products for smart people who don't need a lot of hand holding - if you need to talk to someone on the phone this might not be the product for you - we will still get feedback from customers and look out for big problems using forums and other technology solutions, but we try not to do call centers".
While it isn't immediately helpful to you, a little bit of craftiness here will kill two birds with one stone. First, don't let orders queue. Customers, particularly ADHD tech types, are very sensitive to shipping delays. Instead, if you don't have the inventory and you're at your (low) maximum queue size, turn off orders on the website.
The key, though, is how you do that. I'd highlight the scarcity/exclusivity angle and play it to the hilt. Come on, you're selling I-can't-believe-its-not-moleskin handmade in San Fransisco straight to Mac owners. This is a luxury status item. Tell folks that if they didn't buy in time, they're simply not worthy of your magical goodness. Then three weeks later, you produce some more, and open orders again. You will be stampeded, and have to close again within a day. Folks who didn't hear about it in time, well, not everybody can be cool enough to own this. (Every time you open up orders, expect a burst of Twitter/links/etc, as folks try to get in and then lament that they missed it again or primp to their friends that their faith has been rewarded.)
(I'd suggest making the batches distinguishable in some way -- any way, heck, you could just say "Our artists whispered the words 'Made in the second batch' over these" and that would have the desired effect on your target customer. Also, charge more.)
Just to expand on this: very /very/ sensitive. However providing them an accurate date upfront is a great way to combat this, even if it is a week away. Adjust it accordingly and don't break your first promise to a new customer.
The moment the clock ticks over the 7th day (and I mean, they will wait /exactly/ 1 minute past 7 days for this). They will open up every support channel and complain loudly and demand a lot from you. It's just not worth the hassle!
This is a constant among all customers, everywhere. Even English teachers have the literacy sucked straight out of their eyeballs. Trust me.
(There are also pervasive trust issues, such that folks will ask me to confirm whether the three places in bold that say "Every card will be different" means that every card will be different or will every card be the same instead because that would be very inconvenient if it were true.)
Incidentally, something I have learned about customer psychology: no promise is so binding as the one the customer imagines you made them.
I was about to say the guy is being overly optimistic. Users can't bother to read a dialog box before pressing OK will never, ever, read, much less recall, a web page that contradicts their wishes.
Note that Authorize/paypal (and google?) have a limit on how long you can wait to refund (~90 days), and LIKEWISE, paypal (and google?) have a limit on how long you can wait before filing a claim (45 days iirc). Guess when you should ship packages after capturing? -Well- before 45 days.
AND WHILE IM AT IT...While customer literacy is always a bit questionable, if you're finding a lot of confusion about your shipping policies - you should probably change them! YES even if you think you are right. For example, we used to (like everyone else) say that USPS packages were not insured. Guess what? They'll chargeback anyways. So now all packages are insured at a very reasonable rate. We get no complaints about the extra $ - but we DID get complaints when packages were lost.
I've had problems recently ordering motorcycle parts. Very few motorcycle parts places are all that professional. Many list things on their site as 'in stock' when they don't really have them, and they wait for 10 orders to queue up before putting through an order to their supplier. Then even after they have them in hand, they don't ship them out quickly. I'd pay much more for parts with Newegg/Amazon style shipping that I knew I could have tomorrow if I wanted them.
We are working on changing that.
You wouldn't believe how hard the suppliers make it to get real inventory and catalog data.
Check out my business, linked in my profile.
BTW- great looking site. I'm checking out now. Shoot me an email at my username at gmail if you've got a chance.
What you are looking is really tough. We are working on simply being able to browse products by fitment.
Unbelievably none of the part fitment data is readily available in a normalized fashion. There actually isn't even a standardized list of makes / models out there. Each retailer has to essentially build this database and keep it up to date manually, which is incredibly resource intensive.
Of course though this means there is opportunity to have because once you have built out this database, there is some defensibility built in.
That's your decision as a customer, just like it's the sellers decision as a merchant. Complaining to google checkout because the terms of the deal that were explicitly stated are going according to plan is asinine. I don't care who has ADHD, grow the fuck up.
Sorry, make the items first, then sell them. Or at least don't charge till you ship.
Not sure if you have ever sold goods to customers but fairness isn't relevant and its a hard lesson I (and others) have had to learn - The only thing that matters is the customer must be happy and they become a customer the moment you take their money. This is why you should not take (capture) their money until you have something to ship them.
His "4-6 weeks to ship" appears to be in direct violation of the Google Checkout policy; you can't do fulfillment on that sort of timeframe if you want to bill with Google Checkout.
Another idea: instead of starting at $50, start at, say, $80 and boost the perceived value of the product too. Some people will still buy it, and while they flush the production, keep the price. As soon as demand diminishes, cut the price to $60 and now it's a $80 product at a 25% discount! Rinse and repeat ;) But as others said, don't take more time to deliver than promised.
Also, couldn't the revenue of the first ~500 sales be used to hire someone to help catch up with demand?
this is what I do with my decidedly unglamorous, price-competitive commodity service. It works fairly well. If I don't have space, I shut down ordering and have them email a 'preorder' address (I mail a link to everyone who emaled preorder as soon as I have space.)
sure, I turn away some customers, but my god, it's a lot easier than dealing with the customer service nightmare of having someone's money, and having no way to get them the product or service they paid for.
> (Every time you open up orders, expect a burst of Twitter/links/etc, as folks try to get in and then lament that they missed it again
this actually happens, even for my service, which targets the low end of the market.
I didn't know your username here but after reading this I knew this had to be Prgmr! I wonder if this means it's a sadly uncommon technique... :-)
I'm just confused by the mismatch between your public page and the preorder page. You still have smaller accounts on the main page but all are available on the preorder one. Is this because you want to avoid a flood of new users or because people who order the smaller accounts have lower expectations and you'd prefer more of those?
Obviously, the link remains the same, so there's nothing stopping someone from signing up for a bunch of domains I don't have available, or cutting in front of other people in line, but so far it hasn't been a problem; people on the waiting list get a day or two to sign up before I open up the main waiting list.
but, then you were asking why I treat ordering for large domains differently from small domains. When I open up orders for large domains, I sell out like /that/ - It doesn't take very many 4GiB sign ups to fill up a 32GiB server. I mean, I can handle a few right now, or, at least I could at that point, but I want to severely rate limit those until I have satisfied the demand for small servers and have a bit of extra capacity.
Right now, I'm on the edge of opening orders for large domains. (I've got a 16 core, 64GiB ram, 8 disk monster at the co-lo I'm configuring that will host only 1024MiB and up domains.) and I've got most of two 32GiB, 4 disk, 8 core boxes either online or in burn in ready for smaller domains.
I prioritize the small domains over the large domains for two reasons.
1. the small domains are more profitable per amount of hardware I buy ($4 per account plus $1 for every 64MiB ram.) and right now my bottleneck is capital for new hardware, so I'll serve the less capital intensive customers first.
2. I am still focused on the hobby user. At the moment, I think I can serve the needs of the enthusiast market better than the 'serious business' market. I'm trying to change that, but I'm not there yet. I do want to get there, so I do like some of the more adventurous businesses trying me out and giving me feedback, but I want to make sure that I don't serve the business market at the expense of my current enthusiast market. I want to keep that base.
The whole Aaron Greenspan mess (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-greenspan/why-i-sued-goo...) does not put me at ease.
Sure Gmail, Search etc, I can understand that you can't supply customer service for a free service used by millions(many of whom will call you for the most trivial stuff).
But when you are dealing with people's money....surely you can afford $8-10 bucks an hour to give people proper customer support. It's not like google is some tiny startup which can be excused due to size, they are bigger than most corporations.
If you hold 6 figures of someone else's money, you better have a way for that person to talk to you.
If your orders always take a lengthy amount of time to fill I would suggest immediately sending a "your item is on back order and you will not be billed until it ships" email with a link to an order cancellation page. This should drastically cut down on the complaints and ease the mind of those consumers who think you have billed them and are scamming them into waiting until the billing complaint period has expired.
The only time I've been billed so far in advance of shipping was with Alienware in 2000. They were still a small company, so they actually called us on the phone to ask if they could bill now and ship in 6 weeks when the machine was ready. It was an unorthodox request, but we agreed. However, if they had billed us 6 weeks before shipping without asking we would have raised Cain.
That said, it is abundantly clear on your page that the item will not ship for 4-6 weeks.
Why should customers have to provide financing? If it's so small run it can be financed post-hoc by a few customer orders, then it's small enough that it can be financed by a few friends, too.