Ask HN: What were your naivetés in your twenties?

391 points by noname123 ↗ HN
Oh the wise elders of Hack News,

I'd like to cheat in life and instead of learning my life lessons the hard way, I'd like to skip ahead and read the ending of the current chapter that I'm currently on.

When I was in middle school, my biggest worry was getting the latest Abercrombie & Fitch cargo pants to fit in on the school hallway, whether this girl on my school bus liked me, and if the size of my gentalia was on par with my peers back then.

When I was in high school, my biggest worry was doing well in school so that I could get into an ivy league school; tacking on a bunch of AP courses and extracurricular activities, not necessarily because I enjoyed AP Chemistry or the track team, but I had to, to get into a ivy league school; and trying to look "cool," "edgy," & "artsy" while caring to stay within the boundaries of MTV's and my high school's social conventions.

When I was in college, my biggest worry was doing well in school so I could go onto a top graduate/medical school or grab a six-figure salary at an i-bank upon graduation. Befriended certain people, chased certain girls (and botched things up royally after the chasing phase is over), got involved in some unsavory debauchery not necessarily because I wanted to live out the lives that "burn, burn, burn" but rather out of my fear of missing out on the "college experience."

Of course, it didn't all seem that way when I was in the moment - and certainly I don't regret the things I did in the past (because I can't change the past) and I'll be certain to make lots of mistakes in the future too. And even if an older version of me, traveled back in time to my middle school, told me how stupid of me it was to spend $70 of my parents' money on a pair of Abercrombie & Fitch cargo pants, I know that my middle school self would respond, "are you crazy, I need to get these pants to impress this chick on my school bus!"

I only beseech your wisdom about what mistakes/naivetes I'll incur in my twenties, oh the elders of the Hacker News, so that when I realize later how right you were after my twenties, I could slap myself silly and say to myself, in the place of your absence, "see? I told you so!"

Best, noname123

268 comments

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I'm 22, and perhaps I'm naive in my belief of this, but one of the biggest things I've learned is that theory and practice are rarely aligned. Reading about mistakes someone else has made generally only helps you see that you've made the same mistake in hindsight; when you're heading down that same path, you tend to justify it or are completely blind to the fact that it's a mistake.

All that said, I'm curious about what comes of this thread regardless of how useful it ends up being.

You need to constantly validate your theories against the real world, what other people say is not enough.

This means: solve a lot of problems after you learned a theory, try to feel out the problem space yourself by extending the theory or applying it in a specific way, practice, practice, practice, and always look out for things everyone considers true but are not obvious from the data.

I am finding more and more as a 21 year that all the answers that you need come from within. I can read the internet all day long for advice about my life but at the end of the day I am really starting to think I am the only one that knows exactly what I should do. Actually doing what I know I should is a completely different thing however.
That girlfriend material is the same as wife material.
That's startling. What makes it so?

Do you think that the converse is true, that boyfriend material is the same as husband material?

I believe the wyclif was referring to rather quite the opposite, that a former naive belief of his was that girlfriend material is the same as wife material.

This is in spite of my former belief the only thing that would ever come out of wyclif's mouth was "dollar dollar bill, y'all".

former naive belief of his was that girlfriend material is the same as wife material.

I read his original comment as "you want your girlfriend to be like your wife." That is unless you like wasting 2 people's time instead of one.

If you are just looking for "girlfriend" activities, then shes not really your girlfriend, is she?

OK, I'll settle this: noname123 is right. Remember, this is Ask HN. I just answered the question "What were your naivetés in your twenties?" That was one of mine. I'm amused that got voted up so much while being misunderstood by some...the dangers of brevity!
One of the most important lesson I have learned is the importance of savings and living a frugal life. Even if you are independently wealthy, living a frugal life can give you a sense of introspection that is hard to understand for most when you are wealthy.

Save. Save. Save.

They say you learn your biggest life lesson as you stumble through your experiences in life. Poverty is something you would NOT want to experience in your life and there is no guarantee you will survive through it and when (or if) you do survive it might take a big chunk of your life you will never get back or recover from the process.

My desire to do this though, causes the problem that I feel like I can't stop working and constantly increasing my savings.

The idea that if I take time off for a while to work on something at a loss, the damage will be too great due to the long time effects of compounding interest etc and the desire to build a prosperous life for my family.

So I think I have the opposite problem. I have a hard time stepping off the gas pedal to pursue things that would probably be more beneficial and enjoyable.

it seems as though you are talking about something different from the OP. you are emphasizing building wealth, the OP is emphasizing restraint.
It is two sides of the same coin: you can't build wealth without exercising restraint. Look at all the professional young sport guys who earned millions in no time, and who wasted it all on senseless bling-bling.

And he says, "work on something at a loss", which is definitly not building wealth, it is anti-saving. If you are a saver, you'll always save money no matter how much or how little you earn. Spending your savings is against your nature.

Saving money is living in the possibilities, in the mind.

~30,000$ in rice today was significant wealth 1,000+ years ago. (It's all the calories someone needs over a reasonably long life.)

However, IMO wealth is best measured as a multiple of your lifestyle, someone with a billion in the bank who spends 300 million a year can't retire without cutting back, but someone with 1 million in the bank who spends 20k/year can.

It's not just about restraint. His point on frugality (I think) was it's important to release capital for reallocation. It depends what you read into "save", because you'll not build much wealth by holding cash on deposit. I would put it more as "invest, invest, invest". Read "The Intelligent Investor" and go from there.
i disagree, although i don't look it as the dichotomy between "save your money" vs "spend your money on stuff", either.

i don't feel like you should stockpile your money for the nebulous future. yes, you should save it up to have an emergency fund. yes, you should start saving some for retirement. yes, you should save your money to make larger purchases instead of using credit. etc..

but you shouldn't let the drive to save money create anxiety and thereby lock you into a lifestyle. save, yes, but don't let the need to save dictate your life and your career choice. if you're much happier doing something where you don't have the $ to save as much, life will be much better.

The developer who hasn't coded assembler in his yoth is crazy. The seasoned programmer coding assembler is also crazy.
Being too cocky about the experience and depth of knowledge I had at the time. I was a big fish in a small pond, and I outperformed my peers, but on once you go up the professional ladder you realize how little you know.
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Meritocracy : the reward would be function of merit.

What I've learned is that merit is a multivariate dimension with different weights on the variables. Weights varies heavily with time and context. The reward is also very relative because it has never bee what I would consider a legitimate reward.

The error was induced by school notes working model as well as by education process of parents with rewarding and praising. I assumed it would apply in "true life" everywhere with everybody that would have to judge or evaluate me.

I've written about this before actually. I hung out in a couple of supposed Meritocracy (both in real life and online) and all of them collapsed when someone asked the question "so, uh, what is merit exactly?" - because no one could agree :)
That things will usually turn out better than I expect. It's important to have realistic (read: deliberately-lowered) expectations in life. I always find that I am objectively better off when I don't burden myself with out-of-reach ambitions.

P.S.: I'm a college sophomore.

Experience the excitement of slapping yourself silly now instead of later, because it will probably be much less enjoyable when you're older. Words of wisdom.
It's naive of you to believe you can learn from our past naivety.

You will have to do your own mistakes and learn from them.

Education is an admirable thing, but it is well to remember from time to time that nothing that is worth knowing can be taught. -Oscar Wilde

Perhaps not, but I think I've learned from mistakes faster when people have warned me beforehand about them.
Sorry but Oscar Wilde was the original troll. If you've spent any time reading him you'd be extremely reluctant to quote him on something like this.
I think that he just wasn't very literal. In this case he's right: you have to learn everything yourself, you can't really be taught; "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".

One of my favorite quotes is from Oscar Wilde, "Life is too important to be taken seriously".

> It's naive of you to believe you can learn from our past naivety.

Firmly disagree. You absolutely can learn from others' past mistakes - that doesn't mean you'll make no mistakes, but you absolutely can make less mistakes and recognize and correct them faster.

> You will have to do your own mistakes and learn from them.

True. But the more you can listen to and apply good guidance from people who've been there, the better chance you get there faster, more easily, and with less pain.

I wish someone had taught me to lift weights with lower weight and perfect form instead of trying to be superman - from that, I tore some cartilage in my knee doing squats with too much weight and bad form. I've showed a couple people how to lift since then, given them a stern admonition not to try to look powerful, but to focus on steady, safe gains. As far as I know, everyone getting this stern admonition with relevant stories about physical therapy and assorted misery listens to them and lifts weights in a safer, more healthy way. You can learn from others' mistakes, often refrain or minimize the mistake-making in your life, and be much better off for doing so.

There are different kinds of knowledge, and advice targeted at different kinds of mistakes.

Errors of technique, like you describe, certainly can be learned from without needing to experience them yourself - though the lesson might not be learned as well, it may be learned well enough to avoid the problem.

But other kinds of knowledge, particularly relating to emotional maturity or social interaction, are very hard to acquire from a book, as it were. You need to live the experience to properly appreciate the lesson.

But perhaps if you have the knowledge of other guys' mistakes, you can spot your own mistakes earlier. Instead of having to repeat them a hundred times before it dawns on you.

Also learning from mistakes--your own and those of other people--enables you to make different mistakes.

I'm sorry but you're talking about trivial life issue.

Do you think one could teach you how to deal with the loss of a loved one, disease, poverty, finding out who you really are, being a good friend or a good father?

That's what matters.

As a single data point - supporting the idea that your own experience is far more valuable than listening to me talk - I continue to get massive value from this (under-rated imho) essay: http://www.paulgraham.com/gap.html
I actually have to disagree with you. I think that's a terrible article. The core idea, that truly competent and motivated people are orders of magnitude more productive than others, is true. But the rest of it is a bad justification for centuries of inequality and exploitation. It confuses Is and Ought To by assuming that any market outcome is always morally good. It ignores the environment, society, and history, while claiming to be more "reality-based" than opposing views.
The best advice is: Relax, it's going to be ok.

Everyone takes their own path in life. Listen to others but find your own path.

When you wake up in the morning ask yourself are you happy? If yes keep doing what you are doing.

If no, ask yourself if you could do something to change that, if you can then do that, rinse wash repeat.

If you can't do anything about it be happy anyway.

In short, just be.

Does this imply staying in your comfort zone? Is this not counter-productive?
It is very unlikely that you will always be in your comfort zone. When you ask yourself this question ever day, "Are you happy?", sooner or later you will find yourself replying back "no". Then you will need to change something to make yourself happy, the action of changing something will take you out of your comfort zone.

I try it often, it works, but you will need to be honest with yourself when you answer this question.

Depends; if you like being in your comfort zone and can maintain that indefinitely whats the problem?
The nice thing about being human is you only have to maintain it for about 80 years.
I find myself kicking me out of the zone just as it is created. Sometimes it is tiring, working on it (working on both, that is, "being comfortable" as well as not getting out too soon :) )
It may imply that, if staying in your comfort zone makes you happy. Everyone comes with a different outlook on life. For some it's important to create startups. For some it's important to have a stable income, pension, benefits, etc. There is no universal truth as to what one should do in life to be "successful". I have a feeling that if Mother Teresa and Warren Buffett were transposed that each would be unhappy.

What is important is to find out what balance of friends, family, work, charity, money makes you happiest.

Don't believe everything they tell you. If you listen to too many people too often, you will be average at best.

Have the conviction to be better. If you can't convince people of your ideas, it doesn't mean the ideas are bad, it just means they didn't think of them first.

Don't believe everything they tell you. If you listen to too many people too often, you will be average at best.

In other words, don't go to med school because daddy's a doctor and told you so.

There's a reason a lot of highly successful people dropped out of college or never went.

I studied engineering because daddy's an engineer. At a young age I didn't comprehend how fulfilling math and science could be, I didn't understand the creativity and depth and purpose it could bring to me. It turns out daddy has been right a lot of the time.

Also, sure some highly successful people dropped out of college, but perhaps even more highly successful people stuck with it so I'm not sure I agree with "a lot". How often does impulsiveness and ego result in one's downfall as opposed to one's success? I certainly think taking the jump is much more interesting, but we also mostly hear about the success stories. After watching plenty of crappy actresses on screen one could conclude it's easy to earn millions smiling in front of a camera, but that's not the case.

I didn't mean to appear to disparage college, I myself am a recent graduate.

The point I was making was that some people, in order to be highly successful, have to do things that seem weird, risky or downright crazy in order to get ahead (things that their friends, family, business partners, investors etc wouldn't approve of or don't see the reason for).

Examples:

- Sergey Brin is on leave from his PhD studies in Stanford. If the price of me not having to use Yahoo or MSN to find stuff online is the knowledge that one of Google's co-founders doesn't have his PhD yet because he dropped out of his studies to co-found Google, then that's a price I'm willing to pay ;-). Apparently his parents still aren't happy that he doesn't have it, even though he's the 24th richest man in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin

- A guy called Michael Burry was the first man to 'predict' the housing market collapse in the US. Author Michael Lewis profiled him in his book, 'The Big Short'. His investors criticized him for years that such a stance was insane, un-American, impossible etc. Mr. Burry didn't listen to any of them, and stuck to his guns because his own research and insight told him he was right. He made millions in a short space of time when things went pear-shaped near the end of 2008. Others copied his strategy also, and made out like bandits.

See: http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/04/wall-str...

That you never regret the big fun adventures that you decide to go on.

When faced with the decision, it can be really hard to take 6 months off to travel to the destination of your dreams - but in hindsight, these are the best times of your life and you usually don't regret them.

I recently sat with a 96 year old man, and his stories were about his trips to his hometown in Europe and to the United States, not about the job that he took or the project that he completed.

Man, forgive me for being blunt, but there's a lot of loser talk in this thread. "Oh you can't learn from others mistakes, you'll make them, blah blah blah..." - no, this is how people feel better about themselves for having not listened to advice and getting wrecked in their own life because of it. Sure, you'll make mistakes, but you shouldn't just accept wandering blindly through life dealing with stuff. This is what most people do, mind you - wander blindly through life. Like, there's tons of literature on good parenting. How many people read it? Like, none. So then they justify their bad parenting by saying "well, we all have to make our mistakes" - bullshit. Bullshit lazy talk. This is like the "you've got to earn your stripes the hard way" thing - sometimes you do, but sometimes you don't. But people who got their stripes the hard way often hate people who get them an easier way. Ignore those people.

Okay, that said, this thread was really good:

"Ask HN: What streetsmarts have you learnt?" http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1366217

I'll paste my comment from that thread, it's absolutely true and I learned it the hard way. Also, I admire you for being proactive and looking for advice to build a smarter, better life with.

--

Track record, track record, track record, track record. Look at the track record. Track records don't lie. Track record, track record, track record.

Someone fired from all their jobs is probably going to be a menace later in some form or fashion.

Someone who ended all their relationships on bad terms is going to end on bad terms with you.

Strong starters/non-finishers are going to start strong but likely won't be able to close it out without extra help later... which you might be oblivious to, because they'd started so strongly.

Track records don't lie. Unless you're really good at spotting diamonds in the rough, don't grab someone with a bad track record for an important role in your business and life. I've learned this one the hard way too many times. I still get tempted with, "Wow, this guy/girl is so amazing, the problem must've been the other people..."

I'm trying to not do that any more. Once? Quite possibly a fluke. Twice? Maybe... Three times? That's a track record. Also, people will always say they've changed. It's probably a bad idea to be the first person to test out whether it's real or not.

Forgive me also for being blunt ... what if the person who has the poor track records is yourself? I'm of course referring to myself and others who don't have as a tough sounding username as lionhearted.

I think we give the benefit of doubt to people that we could relate to, who have had the same disadvantages and flaws as ourselves (after all, to not do so is to reject ourselves).

Does your statement imply that we should try to align ourselves with those who have better track records than our own, and vice versa for those who are inferior? I'm not trying to be facetious, but trying to get you to elaborate applying what you said in a real world context.

> what if the person who has the poor track records is yourself?

Build a track record! :)

The problem with people without track records is that often they talk a good game but haven't built up their game. You goal shouldn't be to convince people that you're now [loyal / effective / honest / disciplined / whatever], it should be to actually build that quality in yourself.

Everyone's got no track record at some point. Build yours. Accomplish things. Be loyal. Keep growing and learning and doing things. Mostly - do things as much as possible as fast as possible. "Quantity always trumps quality" - http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/08/quantity-always-tru...

> Does your statement imply that we should try to align ourselves with those who have better track records than our own, and vice versa for those who are inferior?

It's not about better/inferior - it means people will usually continue to do what they've done in the past, as opposed to what they say they're going to do.

You should look to associate yourself with people you admire and like, and you should also look to find people on their way up and help them too. I don't think I've ever quoted the Bible before, but this about covers it:

"To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven. A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to reap that which is planted. A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to to mourn, and a time to dance. A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing. A time to get and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence and a time to speak; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace."

> I'm not trying to be facetious, but trying to get you to elaborate applying what you said in a real world context.

Okay, ultra-practical rendition:

-Avoid men/women with a history of nasty endings to their relationships, even if they're charming...

-Avoid hiring people who look extremely talented but flame out without producing

-Avoid working for people that everyone says is a terrible/mean/awful boss/client/whatever, even if they seem okay

-Feel free to break this if you have a particularly good eye for talent, but only then

-If someone has rehabilitated themself, you'll generally see a good track record coming from them quickly. People can accomplish and build and do good things pretty quick after improving. Don't take anyone's word that they've improved without results, because everyone says that.

Anyway, don't sweat if you have a mixed or poor track record yet, just start building yours as quickly as you can. Accomplish things, build things, learn, and serve people, and don't forget to get some of the value you create for accomplishing, building, and serving - helping is good, but it's totally fair to get some of the value you created. As you accomplish more things, people come to know and respect you as a guy that gets things done, is a good guy, and accomplishes things. Then people want to work with you. It's a virtuous cycle.

I agree with the track record thing but it is important to compartmentalize here. Somebody might have a track record of being a womanizer but might be good at what they do eg. Bill Clinton, Tiger Woods, JFK, or they might have a gambling problem, reference Michael Jordon. With that said, only judge people on track record in the category you need them to perform in.
I don't know, I think character is a really important trait. If someone is a womanizer and consistently breaks his commitment to his spouse, why should we believe that he will deal any differently with us? One is to have the most intimate, enduring, unbreakable commitment to his spouse, and if this person considers such an intimate connection worthless, why would he place any value on your professional relationship?

The best way to find success in hiring is to hire people who are honest and moral all-around. Don't make exceptions just because someone is supposedly a "rockstar programmer"; even if he can write code 10x more efficient than anyone else, it's almost never worth the added interpersonal friction. Life -- and business -- is all about relationships, not technicalities.

Phil Jackson placed Rodman on the Bulls despite his character flaw and generally being regarded as being unstable. But Rodman was the best at what he did. I think everybody comes with their flaws but choose people based on their genius not on their lack of flaws.

I think people have this notion that a person has to be this all around good person, when it is not true. Like Woods, the media needs to present this image of being perfect. What you need are people perfect for their position and manage their other flaws

Sports stars are something of an unusual situation. Things like instability generate publicity for the given player and his team. Rodman was good for the Bulls because:

a. the Bulls is show business; people pay to see characters like Rodman

b. celebrity tabloids/news pick up on "unstable" behavior and make a show out of it, which is good publicity and marketing for the subjects

c. a long-term steady relationship is not necessarily important; you milk the characters while they generate cash for your business, and try to make it last, but if they eventually leave (in most cases, including Rodman's; MJ would be an exception) there's no critical damage to the business, just less free publicity.

It's not about picking people on a "lack of flaws" generally. It's about avoiding people who've demonstrably, repeatedly, unabashedly violated the most important and intimate commitments they have ever made, and it's about reasoning from that basis that they may not value your professional relationship so much if they won't even value their marital relationship very much.

Adultery isn't necessarily the only case where this conclusion is valid, but I think you get the point. You should avoid "bad people", even if they are geniuses. Just look around -- Ulrich Drepper is a liability to libc because of his abrasiveness and that trait has caused fragmentation of effort, Hans Reiser wrote a mighty fine filesystem, but couldn't work with others and eventually murdered his wife, and so on.

I don't know the personal lives of Drepper or Reiser so it's unfortunate to implicate them in this post, but the point is, some things are more important than raw performance in a core competency. If we accept slightly-less-awesome code in return for largely-more-awesome demeanor, interaction, and maintainership, that's a great trade because while the code may run slightly less fast, it will attract many more users and contributors, prevent fragmentation, and progress quickly and more applicably than a project run by a close-minded or hostile maintainer, no matter how great that individual's code is.

The reality is that a person's behavior in their personal life is a reflection of their behavior in professional life. You can't really segregate the two and pretend that they're completely different animals. They bleed over, a person is one individual. I would never hire someone I knew to be a fraudster or adulterer because they have already proven that they are not worthy of trust from their closest friends and family members, much less their employer.

[I didn't downvote you, I think you are making some valid points]

What I'm trying to point out is not paint with broad strokes. But evaluate everything and everyone independently of rules.

Flaws of people admired:

1) Gandhi - Racist

2) Martin Luther King - Copy someone's work for his phd. Also an adulterer.

3) Edgar Allan Poe - So disrespectful that he was disowned by his guardians.

4) Tesla - Hated fat people.

5) Steve Jobs - Erratic and Temperamental. Fired employees on the spot

6) Bill Gates - Monopolistic tendencies

7) Mark Zuckerberg - Used delay tactics on his competition to get facebook to market. Hacked people's profile.

8)Vincent van Gogh - Lived with a prostitute. Accused of rape. Was mentally ill. Cut his ear off.

I would say it's best to control these negative tendencies than to try to find flawless people.

Apple tried to control Steve behavior and you see what happened in his absent. While he went on to form NeXT and Pixar, Apple tank.

Sure it will be nice to have someone who isn't temperamental and abrasive but choose genius over any other qualities. I think the rest qualities can be managed. Give Steve a meditation coach(meditation= more empathetic)

Thanks for not downvoting me.

Again, it's not about finding "flawless" or "perfect" people. We all know these people don't exist. It's just about paying attention to a few basic moral imperatives, namely integrity; if a person has a history of adultery, that person is not likely to be a trustworthy resource. That person is willing to destroy the lives and hearts of his family for fleeting personal sexual gain. Why do you think such a person wouldn't be willing to trade the well-being of your company or other employees if the right personal incentives materialized? An adulterer is pretty much the most selfish kind of person you can find.

Of course adulterers and other people can still do good things. Everyone is capable of doing good. I am merely saying that I wouldn't invest the resources into hiring an adulterer because adulterers prove that they are suspicious and untrustworthy by committing adultery. There are plenty of non-adulterers out there that are safer investments, even if it costs me a bit of CPU time.

All of us have our limits, I wouldn't hesitate to hire an adulterer but under no circumstances I would hire a racist, a rapist, or a murderer.
Gandhi was a racist? That's news to me. Links? Citation?
"We believe as much in the purity of race as we think they do, only we believe that they would best serve these interests, which are as dear to us as to them, by advocating the purity of all races, and not one alone. We believe also that the white race of South Africa should be the predominating race. "- Gandhi

http://www.trinicenter.com/WorldNews/ghandi4.htm

Point taken. Thanks for pointing it out.

It's a general trend to rewrite history and present world leaders in glowing terms. The assumption is common people would loose faith if they know about their flaws.

I don't buy that. Ignorance, though bliss, isn't a solution to any problem. I would expect people to know the facts and then exercise their judgement.

I remember a slideshow a couple of days back from some startup which had a slide of a monkey saying "We don't write software for this", followed by a slide of Neil Armstrong on moon saying "This is what we write for; Humans who transcended moon and keep going higher"(paraphrasing).

The elite dumbasses at the top assume too much about common people.

Gandhi, "racist"?

Would you mind very much googling "Harijan"?

You seem to have latched on to a very strange definition of "racist". Gandhi might have believed during that early period in his life in keeping races separate, which is not surprising given his orthodox upbringing, but he did a very great deal, later, to unite people of all religions and races and motivate them to think of each other as equals, persuading them to literally call each other 'brothers and sisters'.

I cannot accept that that is the same as what is commonly understood as "racist".

"We believe also that the white race of South Africa should be the predominating race."- Gandhi http://www.trinicenter.com/WorldNews/ghandi4.htm

Yes, I'm talking about the early part of his life. Well if you feel comfortable - ex-racist.

Lots of people contribute nothing to racial harmony over their lives and yet they'd be sufficiently politically correct that you couldn't call them racist or ex-racist.

Gandhi ended up having undone the damage to an incredible, extraordinary extent. I'm no Gandhi fanboy, but I don't see how the hint of blame that 'ex-racist' implies can be applied to his life.

Maybe you are right. I was using Gandhi as an example of how evaluating ones fault is not necessary the way to judge people for a job. Sure he made these mistake, but it didn't take away from his ability to unite people. That is the point I was trying to make, whether he was a racist or not, his genius still stands.
If you go back far enough, you won't find anyone who thought the way we do about race, so the label you're putting on Gandhi here is an anachronism and the moralism implicit in it is glib.

A more interesting place to look for Gandhi's shadow side is in the dynamics of his family, particularly his oldest son (IIRC) who lived out all the things his father hated; he became an alcoholic and, worse, a salesman.

But Gandhi shouldn't have had to be completely responsible for how his son turned out (assuming he turned out badly).

I might blame some but not all parents, as a class, if their kids became alcoholic, but in the case of specific individuals it's hard to say.

I agree with you on the first point.

Some of these are interesting. Gandhi, for instance, may have been racist in his early life. But if he changed as he aged, does that make him a racist forever? In other words, there was a racist Gandhi, but also a non-racist Gandhi. Which one gets the legacy? Both?
Neither Rodman nor Woods ever had any incentive to play poorly or otherwise screw over their team.

Hiring untrustworthy people is fine if you can make sure their incentives are 100% aligned with yours. If you can't, then I think cookiecaper's advice is sound.

"I don't know, I think character is a really important trait. If someone is a womanizer and consistently breaks his commitment to his spouse, why should we believe that he will deal any differently with us? One is to have the most intimate, enduring, unbreakable commitment to his spouse, and if this person considers such an intimate connection worthless, why would he place any value on your professional relationship?"

From what I can tell, this seems to be a common way of thinking in the US, especially in politics. Much less so in Europe (and maybe other parts of the world, I don't know). Personally, I don't see the connection between a person's romantic affairs, and their political decisions... one involves raging hormones, the other (hopefully) does not, so the decision making process is likely very different. (One could say, there are different body parts involved in the decision making... :-)

And what happens when things align such that sexual incentives occur which are contrary to relevant covenants? If we can't trust a politician to be loyal to his wife when faced with another attractive woman, why should we trust him to be loyal to political or employment covenants, by all accounts much less intimate and involved than a marriage covenant, if such a condition was presented?

For instance, if a company promises lots of pre-paid escort time in exchange for a given change to a given bill, why should we expect that an adulterer would be any more loyal to the right regarding the political establishment than his own wife and family?

And the reality is that these people don't even need an explicit sexual offer to betray their associates, there are many other bribes that appeal to the same basic desires (like money, power, status, etc.) that can be exploited to the same ultimate end.

An adulterer is a proven liability. Why should we trust him and invest a bunch of time and money and trust and secrets into him, only to betrayed when an adversarial entity lures him with money and sex? Obviously repentant people should be given another chance at some point, but I would never trust a known adulterer that wasn't completely repentant.

Wise words lionhearted. Wise words.

Note that you can hire early flameouts in bundles and rotate them when each flames out though. If you can manage that, it's like driving with NOx.

While there is truth in what you say I can only quote (or rather paraphrase from memory) Michael Mcintyre:

have you ever noticed with ATM's, you go up to it and it says "no, I have no money for you, go away". So, like a good citizen you turn round to the man behind you in the queue and say "it is out of money". And he says "thank you.....", and then steps up to try for himself anyway. "thanks, but I don't believe you, it will work for me".

So, no, you don't have to "learn things the hard way". But most people nod sagely when you give them advice and then do it anyway :) (and that is a good thing IMO)

(I agree with your track records thing; it's too easy to imagine you are giving a "last chance" and that it will really work out this time).

"Like, there's tons of literature on good parenting. How many people read it? Like, none."

I think that's a really bad example. There's a lot of bullshit in the parenting literature. In a way I find it very disturbing, that we need to learn how to parent our children.

I agree that there's a lot of junk out there. Almost all the "professional", published advice I've skimmed or read on pregnancy, for instance, amounts to "do whatever the pregnant lady says". Somehow I find this less likely to be good advice and more likely to be fodder for sales, to get women to buy a so-called "authoritative" source that justifies unreasonable behavior under the guise of pregnancy.
"In a way I find it very disturbing, that we need to learn how to parent our children."

Really? Why?

I've never understood why people look at parenting differently than any other skill you have to learn.

>I've never understood why people look at parenting differently than any other skill you have to learn.

Parenting should be assimilated (learnt if you like) gradually over time from those around you. Humans IMO function best as family groups within a [close-knit] tribal system: under such a regime one learns from one's own parents, parents of peers, parents of younger children, older intra-generation peers and peers as parents as well as from looking after younger children as a child, looking after younger children as a teen, ... you get the idea.

Even under such a regime it's possible that you can learn "better" parenting from outside the group but you're going to be able to actually do it already just like learning to eat or prepare food.

The thing is we mostly don't have such a structure.

It seems to me that society is in death throes; that as populations burgeon so we value one another and interaction with one another less-and-less. But perhaps this is just me; I tend to be too introverted and pessimistic for my own good.

From experience I've seen that this "learn by your parents" is truly starting to be weak in the Western "thinking" countries. Poor countries on the other hand use this a lot.

I was raised in a post-communist Albania, and people weren't influenced by consumerism. It was a more warm-environment for the child to grow. My sister was raised in Italy (during 00'). Between me and my sister, assuming the same age, I would learn better from my parents then her.

"Parenting should be assimilated (learnt if you like) gradually over time from those around you. Humans IMO function best as family groups within a [close-knit] tribal system: under such a regime one learns from one's own parents, parents of peers, parents of younger children, older intra-generation peers and peers as parents as well as from looking after younger children as a child, looking after younger children as a teen, ... you get the idea."

This doesn't seem to work so well in today's society, as we tend to consider older generations' ideas of parenting "old-fashioned". Maybe rightfully so, maybe not... but discarding the experience from older generations means you have to relearn everything all over. In that context, it may be useful to have books (etc) on parenting that tell you, "do X", "don't do Y", maybe put in a contemporary context, so there's less of a stigma of being "out of date".

The problem is that most parenting literature is based on one person's subjective opinion. There is a dearth of real evidence to prove that one technique actually produces better outcomes than another. So how are we to know what skills to learn?

There is a tremendous variation in individual children so mostly it has to be a trial and error process until you figure out what works for each.

Read Laura Berk. She is an awesome researcher in child development.
Look at the context for the track record: was it against all odds, or were they raised with a silver spoon? It is much easier to get ahead when having good loving parents, good teachers, good friends, but there might not be much of a fighter in those champions.

and definitely: people who bad-mouth others will bad-mouth you when you leave, no matter how noble you behave. But you still have to be noble to avoid your actions coming back and biting your ass.

how about "people will bad-mouth you." full stop. There is nothing you can do to stop it.

Now, how you respond says a lot, especially if you own a business, and people are bad-mouthing you on 'the permanent record'

1. don't respond as if you are taking it personally.

Sure, being attacked unfairly by a customer feels like a fist to the gut. But it's not. This won't burst your spleen. Man up and act rationally.

2. acknowledge problems the badmouther brings up, if some of them are valid complaints. Explain how you are trying to prevent those problems from happening again. If possible, offer a refund, etc.

3. try to deflect invalid complaints without getting angry.

Fear is not the mind killer. Anger is the mind killer. If the badmouther is being unreasonable, it's likely that others will see this as well, (If others don't see this... perhaps your idea of reasonable needs to be re-calibrated?) If you can't deal with this in a calm manner, don't say anything at all. personal attacks in response to personal attacks will make you look like a 15 year old or a politician, in any case, nobody anyone wants to do business with.

Weird, isn't your comment a bit self-contradicting?

Above the <hr> fold: "Stop the loser talk. You can learn from others' mistakes. Your fate is not sealed."

Below the fold: "Track record is king. It's all DNA. People don't change. Your fate is sealed."

FWIW, I tend to agree more with your below-the-fold views based on most people I've met.

> Below the fold: "Track record is king. It's all DNA. People don't change. Your fate is sealed."

You read it wrong - it's not about DNA or fate. It's about what a person has done recently. It's a good predictor of what they're going to do next. As soon as someone changes for real, they build a new and healthy track record.

In general, you should weight a person's actions - track record - over what they say. It's a people skills thing more than a destiny-predicting thing.

> FWIW, I tend to agree more with your below-the-fold views based on most people I've met.

Huh, well, I admire you saying that, it's not a fashionable viewpoint these days. I'd predict a person's actions 95% by what they've done recently and 5% what they talk about, but I think it's possible for anyone to change through incremental improvement. Many people won't, but everyone could. There's always some little incremental improvement you could make. But for important roles in your life, you can't gamble - look for someone with a good track unless you're in a position to make a good evaluation, and be careful even then.

Isn't it possible that a person will act the same based on track record because their environment is always the same and therefore there isn't an incentive to change their habits, especially if they are unaware of this? People can change enough to make a big difference when their eyes are opened and they realize what really matters in life. I've seen it happen.
Yes, but creating that environment for change is a pretty difficult task. As an example, several times I've hired people who did customer support before to do customer support for me, and de-training all the customer-hostile and ultimately time-wasting behaviors is really hard. I mean, sure, it can be done, if you understand the behaviors and values you want, and if the employee is willing to work with you, but it is /hard/

My experience with this sort of thing is that if the person looks like they failed in the past due to having a bad boss[1], yeah, I can fix it. But otherwise? you are in for a whole lot of work with a very small chance of success. Sometimes, it's worth it, but you need to go in with your eyes open.

[1] oh man, bad bosses do a whole lot of damage. that's the funny thing; I don't think a good boss, even a really good boss helps all that much. I mean, sure, they help a little. I try to be a good boss. But a bad boss can easily swing productivity in to the negative. Goal one is to not be a bad boss.

First - do everyone a favor and throw this "If I say bullshit enough people will think I'm good at spotting it" mindset out. While you're at leave the "there's a lot of loser talk in this thread" talk to trolls.

Second - Why in gods name would you teach yourself to view people so one dimensionally? You sound like a College Admissions rep only interested in a persons GPA.

I appreciate the basic notion, that execution matters more than words but I wouldn't waste my breath telling my naive self that. I was far too naive to take that advice to heart. And I surely wouldn't tell myself to not be the first to give someone a second chance.

I don't know what I'd tell myself, I haven't put my mind there yet, but I do know for damn sure that it wouldn't involve such a cold finite tone.

>Someone fired from all their jobs is probably going to be a menace later in some form or fashion. >Someone who ended all their relationships on bad terms is going to end on bad terms with you.

This was an important lesson for me recently. I had a friend I was spending quite a lot of time with, and was discussing starting businesses with. One day it dawned on me that there was not one job, friendship or relationship this person had not ended, usually badly. Then I realised that I was just about their only current friend, which made me realise this person eventually fell out with all their friends. Seeing the writing on the wall I staged a gradual withdrawal, and remain friendly but not friends.

A couple things from this forty-year old:

1. If you want to have kids, do it sooner rather than later. The sooner you have them, the better: they grow up so fast, you'll still have time in your 40's to enjoy life with them as teenagers, if you're lucky. If you leave it too late, you'll be pretty disconnected from their teen lives, and hell .. what 40-year old doesn't enjoy the odd jaunt with their teenage kids, eh? I know I wish I'd had my kids a decade sooner .. and don't let anyone tell you its hard, either. Its not hard, if you love them enough, to keep your lives together and do well as a family. Family units are the strongest groups you will ever find or belong to, if they are indeed a unit ..

2. The wisdom of the Mob. It doesn't exist in nearly as palatable a form as most people might desire, and there is also the ugly truth that the Mob can be downright stupid. Collective truth is often full of lies. You would be wise to exercise your ability to disassociate yourself from collective thought as often, and as early, as possible. This means, always question "what everyone else knows to be true" four, five, six times, before you use it as a basis for life decisions .. The Mob wishes to Eat you, Individual, and Never Forget That!

3. Save. Save, save, save. 10% of your money saved on a regular basis now is a huge relief in the future. I wish I'd enforced this on myself a bit better in the 20's .. you simply cannot avoid the fact that if you save during your most productive years, your least productive years will be better off for it ..

> 3. Save. Save, save, save. 10% of your money saved on a regular basis now is a huge relief in the future. I wish I'd enforced this on myself a bit better in the 20's .. you simply cannot avoid the fact that if you save during your most productive years, your least productive years will be better off for it ..

I just got my first a few months ago and opted to save more than 20% of my gross income (tax-free, you pay taxes when you get it out later). I wasn't used to the money anyway, yet, so it was easy.

Also, if you are not saving already: I guess whenever you get a raise, you can comfortably afford to save like 50% of it--because that money isn't planned into your budget, yet.

One step further: if you get a raise, take all of the associated money and save it. The standard of living you're used to will stay the same.
If you can do pull it off, do so. I might even try it myself.

But saving "only" 50% of your raises is something everybody can do without too much discipline, and still feel rewarded with a higher standard of living for whatever they did to get the raise. (Unless it's an automatic raise, and not something you got for some achievement.)

    1. If you want to have kids, do it 
    sooner rather than later.
My issue is that kids cost a lot of money, which means you lose quite a lot of flexibility.

I want to start my own business within the foreseeable future (probably 1-2 years, currently saving money, gathering contacts and getting more on-the-job experience in the field I want to operate in).

Right now I know that if I save 20k Euros that could easily last me for well over a year, if you have kids - not so much.

EDIT: I'm 27 and have tried doing my own thing that didn't work so well in the past - that 'failure' taught me I should probably get more experience and contacts before trying again. Saving 20-30k Euros (or more) is not the issue and is a sum I can relatively easily gather in a 1-2 years time-frame.

I have a 3 year old, a 2 year old, an 8 week old, and a startup.

Having kids has no impact on having your own business. They're completely orthogonal. Using that as an excuse for not having kids makes as much sense as saying "I don't want to eat tacos for dinner because I want to have my own business."

Note: I'm not responding directly to your comment; I'm responding to the somewhat pervasive idea on HN that kids are a substitute for startups.

"Having kids has no impact on having your own business"

You're saying that raising children has no impact on your available time and money? That seems a bit far fetched. I'd agree that it's totally possible to have kids and do a startup, but frankly you'll be working with a bit less money and less time (and for a while way less sleep).

It very much depends on how you and the mother decided to split up the work load. If she is happy taking close to 100% of the work load and letting you do your thing then it shouldn't be impossible to have basically the same amount of time.
I'd argue that if you're spending ~0% of your time with you kids then you're doing it wrong. Something has to come first, and imho if you have kids then the kids need to come first. That means spending as much time as you can with them, both to help raise them, teach them, and also to experience parenthood.
Having a kid myself, and having turned down an awesome job opportunity since it would have kept away from my daughter for too long periods at a time, I totally agree with you. That being said, I know people who have made the opposite choice, and while I don't agree with it, their kids seem to be turning out OK.
Of course raising children requires time and money, just like any other activity.

I have a friend who competes in Iron Man. It takes a huge commitment of time and energy, and every time I talk to him he has just spent $1000 for some new attachment to his super-bike. Iron Man negatively impacts his "available time and money". Oh, and he has a startup. And it's very successful.

I suspect that most of you have hobbies that consume 3-4 hours of your weekday and several hundred dollars of your monthly budget.

Now, in my case, my family is my hobby. Spending time with my kids is how I relax and unwind. I don't go out, or watch TV, or play a musical instrument, or compete in Iron Man, or participate in Renaissance Festivals. My life might seem empty and boring to you, if your idea of relaxing and unwinding is different than mine.

Having a family is one choice -- amongst many -- for how to spend your free time and disposable income. I'm not claiming that you can have it all -- for example, I don't think anyone could do startup + family + Iron Man -- but I do think that startup + family is eminently doable.

Ok, I want to know more :) Is your startup funded and do you work from home? Is your partner working?

I'd like to hear a little more about how they're completely orthogonal, as most people I know with kids would probably indicate differently.

Paul Graham, exactly one year ago: "What a startup (bootstrapped or not) takes is 100% of your performance, not 100% of your time." http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=679278

He was talking about exercise, but I think the same is true with having kids.

In my case, I spend 4 hours with my kids every workday: 6am - 10am. During that time, I get:

- Ridiculous, insane amounts of joy.

- A chance to see the way that little minds think, which usually triggers a good software idea at least once per week.

- The same kind of chemical response that I would get from volunteering. Before kids, I tried to volunteer about 20 hours per week because it released some kind of neuro-chemical that made me really happy. Helping - and in particular, TEACHING - my kids triggers a similar response.

- An opportunity to process the day's coming challenges (subconsciously)

- Lots of laughs, enough that I don't feel compelled to watch as many TV shows or movies as I did previously.

For me, it works out to a huge net positive on both personal fulfillment and professional performance.

I can't be a good dad to my 3 kids and have enough time to read a chapter in a book each day (along with employment, house chores, etc), let alone go forth with any business ventures.

Do you really find your statements to be true? If so, how do you balance them? Orthogonal seems to be an unarguably incorrect statement, though.

Agreed, if nothing else, kids motivate you. They represent something greater than yourself, which can cause you to work harder and be more determined. They also provide inate happiness and joy outside of your work life.

You will be less risky when you have kids. However, not all risk is worth it.

I often found that in college I performed better (higher GPA) with a higher work load than with a lighter work load. I think it is because I was forced to be more efficient, sharper, and wiser with my time. Having kids and starting a business is analagous. However, this is only my personal experience.

1. If you want to have kids, do it sooner rather than later.

Having kids later is like letting them time travel to the future.

I'm glad my parents had me late.

Unless there comes a new ice age and people start fighting all over the place for food and shelter, or whatever. Let's hope it won't come to that - but anyway, the future might not always just be new versions of iPhones. I think we are actually one of the first generations that never had to experience a war in their home country (speaking from my countries perspective).

That said, I am also curious about the future and hope to experiences as much of it as possible...

Not only is life short, it's shorter than you think.

Make your time count.

I don't mean a life round-the-clock serious business, just be mindful of when you are pissing away your time.

Every single person I know suddenly finds themselves thinking, Holy fuck, I'm [40|50|60|...]? How in the hell did that happen?

And you will do the same.

You will only be given what you deserve after you ask for it. And never be afraid of asking for it if you deserve it.

This is true for gratitude, raises, promotions, funding, marriage, etc.

Lessons I'm learning: Social protocol has a real impact on people. The quality of your reasoning doesn't provide you an excuse to ignore it.

It is incredibly easy to blow thousands of dollars, $20 at a time.

Smile.

Reserve judgement until judgement is required.

Helping people is more satisfying than helping yourself. This is true because you can feel like you've helped others enough, but you will always want more for yourself. ;)

Ambition isn't talent. Ambition isn't a moral quality.

Be prepared.

There is no substitute for good sleeping habits. Really.

Complex, irrational arguments and behavior are often explained by simple emotional factors.

It is incredibly easy to blow thousands of dollars, $20 at a time.

I'm only 22 and I already learned that the hard way. Spend less than you earn.

I couldn't find the original quote, but if I can paraphrase it:

Spend two pence less than you make and you'll be content, maybe even happy. Spend two pence more than you make and you'll be miserable.

Wilkins Micawber -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilkins_Micawber (A character in Charles Dickens' novel David Copperfield)

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

Complex, irrational arguments and behavior are often explained by simple emotional factors.

Understanding this, and you will understand a lot. In almost all quibbles, addressing what you've rooted up as the deep emotional reaction to whatever surface thing you talk about and watch the other person's reaction change immediately.

Find a girl. Settle down. If you want, you can marry.

(Look at me - I am old, but I'm happy.)

1. Your friends aren't your market, so don't be surprise when they don't read your blog or join your site. It's like offering a guy a skirt to wear; it's just not something they are interested in.

2. Your friends and family really want you to succeed. Even though they might say negative stuff about you trying something new, they want you to succeed. Part of the reason they say these stuff is that they want to prevent you from experiencing failure and all the emotional baggage that comes along with it. What I am saying is to take the negative statements made by families and friends lightly. My family was surprised I sold my website when I started grad school; I thought they didn't care for it.

3. Try to network as much as possible. Most investors wouldn't invest in someone who is not properly introduce. 75% of romantic relationship are established through your network. 90% of jobs are found through networks, at least the upper echelon ones.

4. Actions over words. Do something then talk about it, not the other way around. Talking is satisfying enough that it might not lead to action.

> 75% of romantic relationship are established through your network.

Yes, but if you can cold call you'll get get a wider range of possible results (says a happily married cold caller!).

What do you mean by "cold calling" in this context?
Approaching complete unknowns outside of your network - in my case, a girl who'd spent most of her time arguing with another guy at a bar and got up to leave. This girl is now Mrs Nailer.
Learn by fucking up. It's as simple as that. You will gain friends and loose some too, as well as girlfriends or any other person. But in the end, you will learn what's The Right Thing and your friends will be true friends and your GF/Wife/SO will be a person who respects and love you regardless of your flaws.

Being 36, father of three, married for the second time and doing pretty well for myself these days, I can of course only relate to my own experiences of life.

But I'm pretty sure that if I've asked anyone the question you're asking 15 years ago, I would have gotten some advice on how to get by in life, but I wouldn't have understood why the advice given to me was the right way. Experience gives you that understanding.

z80, Sweden

Two things:

1.) Save money while you're young. Keep living like a college student for 5 years after you leave college and sack away at least $10k/year. Put it into the market and don't touch it again until you retire.

Compound interest is quite a thing to behold, and 5% returns over 40 years will do some amazing things to your money. Start with 100k when you're under 30 and you probably won't ever need to worry about retirement savings.

2. Get to the point where you are provably good at what you do as fast as possible. This will mean switching jobs several times. Build things that are noteworthy and get to the point where people are recommending you to their friends.

Once you've done that, you get secret point 3:

3. You are more valuable to your employer than they are to you.

Companies spend a lot of effort making you think your job is precarious and could be taken away at any minute. In reality it will take six months to find a decent replacement for you. Once you're in and demonstrating that you can find your arse with both hands, they're not going to want to lose you.

That gives you lots of room to explore, and is the reason that I love this industry so much. I can't think of another profession where you can take nine months off every year and still make a good living.

More here:

http://www.expatsoftware.com/articles/2007/02/two-weeks-vaca...