Ask HN: Please, help me understand what I am doing wrong.
Here goes:
I'm not burnt out. But, from my vantage point, my problem--whatever it may be--is no less dangerous or frustrating.
Please bear with me as I try to describe what is wrong with me; it seems that clarity slips away more quickly to the extent that I grasp at it.
The problem is one of dissonance and stagnation.
I live an amazing, beautiful, privileged life, but I am unhappy, and my increasingly desperate flailing has not changed a thing. After graduating college at 22, I was hired by a Fortune 500 company as a developer, with a $60,000/year paycheck. I had high hopes for the next few years: Getting in shape, paying off student loans, and programming on the side to finally implement some of the many ideas (both technical and business) that I have collected over the years.
Now, three years later at 25, none of those things have changed. I poured much of my energy into a relationship that I ended near the beginning of the year, but even without that on my mind, I simply cannot seem to overcome inertia. I am still overweight; the fantasy of being debt-free is still a distant mirage, and I am still making the exact dollar amount as when I started; my ideas have languished, tinkered with at best, and utterly ignored at worst. In three years, I have learned a lot about myself, and about how to survive in a corporate job, but the goals I set out as a fresh college graduate have been brutally neglected.
The symptoms are all things you have heard before: I am often melancholy, having struggled with depression for most of my life. Focus is rare; I was recently diagnosed as having ADHD by a psychiatrist, who I saw at the urging of my therapist, despite my staunch refusal to acknowledge it as a real disease. I don't Get Enough Done, and I have to work extremely hard to avoid browbeating myself about every little failure, whether it is a failure of productivity or nutrition.
It's not enough for me to just exist. I feel a deep desire to build, to create, to learn, to teach, and as the weeks and months drag by with no discernible progress made on many of these fronts, my agitation grows.
I've tried many things. Therapy helped a little, but it's been over a half a year and it doesn't seem to have changed much. Prescription psychotropics, of which I have tried only two, had no effect. I picked up martial arts to get some physical activity, and while I am in marginally better shape, it has not "solved" anything. I do my best to eat better, but it's as easy to lose focus on planning my meals and learning to cook as it is to lose focus on coding my latest idea.
I have a difficult time relating attempted solutions because I'm still not sure what the problem is. I am not always sad. I am not always unproductive. I still talk and laugh with coworkers at lunch. I still see movies with friends. Once every couple of weeks, I'll have a few hours or maybe even an entire night where I crank out some code. I've learned to just barely squeeze by at work, excelling enough to win the approval of my peers and superiors. But, I know that I'm not even approaching my full potential. Sometimes I spend entire 8-hour days browsing the internet instead of working, even as I consciously berate myself for slacking off, or procrastinating, or whatever it is that I'm doing.
Sometimes I feel deeply ashamed when I read stories on HN, because there are stories of people who achieved absolutely incredible things in the face of adversity: People who created businesses while destitute; people who built families and careers simultaneously; people who got things done even when they didn't feel like it. Even when life got in the way.
Meanwhile; I'm an intelligent, healthy, gainfully employed bachelor, completely in control of his life, and I can't even put together the simplest of my hundreds of ideas in 3 years. 3 year...
154 comments
[ 3.6 ms ] story [ 214 ms ] threadOn another note, people are pretty strange in that we become most energised when faced with a crisis, maybe you've simply had it too easy so far and now you are coming to this supposedly happy stage in your life without enough contrast to appreciate just how fortunate you really are.
If I were you, I'd man up, choose a single simple goal to achieve, one that you can reach in less than a month and then pursue that relentlessly until you've got it. After that re-evaluate and see where it leads you.
Best of luck there!
If it helps, I am in a similar position. I am under 25, but working as a programmer for 3 years. I got student loans to pay off. (and dont tell my boss, but sometimes I read the internet instead of working). It happens. Slow progress is better than none.
Also, try listening to this song as loud as possible, and tell me it doesn't help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5TXr-vDvhY
Get smaller, immediate goals and work from there. Stop drinking soda next week. Stop eating sweets the week after. Apply that to everything. Think in weeks and days, not in years.
Smaller goals have many benefits. They take less time, they are easier to do, they give you results faster, and the reward you feel for 'completing a goal' is the same.
What do you want to be like? What kind of day would you think was a good one? (here you can include things like "think silently, with no distractions, for 30 minutes" - NOT things like "have 3 good ideas"; also things like "End each day by listing 3 things I want to do the next day, and make sure they get done", rather than "Get lots of stuff done - be incredibly productive")
Design an ideal day. Better yet, design the day you want your 27 year old self to have. Now, you know what your 27 year old self does with his time. You've got 2 years to become that guy.
This means you make gradual changes to your habits. The 30 day method works well for people. Pick one of these new habits that you're aiming to have - only one, seriously - and stick with it for 30 days. Then keep that one going, and add a new one.
If you can do that, you can introduce 12 new habits in one year, and 24 in two years. That's an enormous difference, and it's entirely achievable. Three steps:
1. List the habits your 27 (or 26) year old self has.
2. Pick one for August (but you can start early this month). Do it for the whole month and start a new one in addition in September.
3. That's it. And I don't mean that I'm done. I mean you're done. Stop looking for advice. Don't read productivity blogs. Don't ask any more forums for help. Don't try and perfect this system. It's not perfect, but it's good enough, and doing the good enough beats reading about the perfect. So just do it.
And come back and tell us how you're doing!
People here tend to be too goal oriented, and that's perfect when you have a goal that you want to attain in an area that you love working. But the truth is that it seems that having all the basic needs fulfilled you don't find enough attraction to the higher needs (in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs) that you have in mind. It probably is because the goals you've set aren't really the ones you crave for.
I was, more or less, like you, high twenties, nor happy neither sad, bored with everything. Now, mid thirties, I'm full of energy and will to live to the fullest with the things I love to do. What I did was to start doing activities after work, stuck with the ones I liked (longer the more I liked them) and discarded the ones I didn't like much.
Different martial arts, guitar playing, vegetarian dishes, ... I started to do whatever I felt the desire to do and could be done in a short course (3 months of 1 weekly hour). Until I found my passion (dancing). Now I devote most of my free time to it, I even have left WoW because I have no time for it.
Try things, in a short time scale (i.e.: 7D RPG, NaNoWriMo, weekend kayaking, ...) , and keep with what you have the most fun. Life is worth living, don't waste it all on external goals or in doing things because they will look good on your resumé (unless that's what you love to do, of course).
They probably won't help with sleep much, though. ;-)
This approach combined with having different levels of goals will keep you on the right trajectory in finishing everything you want to accomplish. Something like "Only eat out once a week" can be a goal, it's up to you to choose your level of granularity.
IMO the most important thing is to periodically take a few steps back and reevaluate your current habits in relation to the goals you set.
Never simply have a goal of losing weight. Instead, think about the lifestyle you want that will take you to a healthy weight. Find good foods that you enjoy and exercises that you don't dread. Your goal isn't to lose weight, it's to create that lifestyle that you really want, which will bring the weight-loss and better health with it.
Maybe use this 30 day method to get in the habit but the key to longevity will be the creation of a better lifestyle that you are truly happy with. It won't take long to see the benefits and being happy with the way you are reaching your goal will make it much easier to stay on that path.
Apply the same method to your ideas.
Regarding the exercise part of that statement:
I've actually come to terms with the fact that the amount I need to exercise to change my body over time isn't going to be pleasant while I'm doing it and I won't want to exercise every day. I've also come to expect that I'll feel great after I work out. If you couple these realistic expectations with a regular exercise schedule, it's easier to force yourself through your workouts and meet your goals/establish good habits.
This is also solid advice. Paul G said in one of his essays about doing something you love doesn't mean doing what makes you happy THIS second, it's something that makes you happy over a longer period (week, month, year).
There are very few people when asked if exercising right now would make them happy yet these same people would tell you they would be delighted to be 10-15 pounds lighter and have more energy in 6-12 months.
Yes, it's true that exercise can help suppress your hunger. It can also make you hungrier. Yes, it's true that adding more muscle increases your basal metabolism. But building muscle makes you hungrier. A famous and record-holding power lifter scolded me when I was young: it's a fool's game to try to build muscle and lose weight at the same time (his version was stronger than what I've stated here).
Lose weight through diet. Get fit through exercise. Don't confuse the two goals. If you keep this in mind, then you could have the following strategy: Lose weight, doing only light or moderate exercise that you find fun and distracting enough to keep you from eating. Then, once you are at the weight you like, start exercising for the fitness level you desire.
Thanks so much for your help.
Once I stopped medicating myself with food and weed, my true emotions surfaced and it became easier to know when I was deceiving myself. For example, when I am goofing off more than I should, I now feel sad and pained (not guilty), and consequently correct my behavior.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagvad_Gita#Overview_of_chapte...
---
Sometimes it's easier to change habits in groups rather than alone: http://akkartik.name/blog/resolutions
Cannot agree more ...
That being said, I did enter a dark period that lasted about 8 months after graduating college. I got a job that sounded good on paper. In reality, I was not happy with it, and it did not align with who I wanted to be. It got really bad. It's amazing how detrimental it can be to spend your life doing something that you know isn't you.
I've since modified these traits a few times. For instance, I found out about a year ago from a few people that I apparently intimidate people the first time they meet me. Since then, I've decided that the person I want to be is personable, easily approachable, and makes people comfortable. Since then, I've made a conscious effort to always have a smile on my face when in public, as well as to relax my posture a bit to try to put those around me at ease.
- fatigue (I was falling asleep at my desk at 10:30am after 11 hours of sleep) - "Brain fog" (Best definition I've heard, it's the lack of the ability to focus after about 10 minutes etc) - Depression (This came on when I would have too much sugar. It would really mess with my head)
Anyways, after some anti-fungals and cutting out most sugars from my diet, I'm 80% better now. I can put in a full day's work and can hang out at night without feeling repercussions the next day.
I also found out I was celiac. Go figure.
I make no excuses for being a religious man, I just am. That view tends to be wildly unpopular in these circles, possibly because it treads upon the contemporary ideas of control and success. The same concepts causing you so much pain right now. Nonetheless, I'll happily plant this seed and hope for it to sprout. What you're missing isn't some quantifiable success story or achievement, but rather a deep, meaningful relationship with your creator.
This isn't an ode to mediocrity, but like someone else said choosing a different measuring stick by which you measure your life. And, really, a call for you to stop flogging yourself with that same stick.
"Each of us will have our own Fridays...those days when the universe itself seems shattered and the shards of our world lie littered about us in pieces. We all will experience those broken times when it seems we can never be put together again. We will all have our Fridays.
But I testify to you in the name of the One who conquered death, Sunday will come. In the darkness of our sorrow, Sunday will come.
No matter our desperation, no matter our grief, Sunday will come.
Death is not the end of existence."
Joseph B. Wirthlin
I suffer from a lot of the same problems -- ultimately, that feeling that you're phoning it in, and that you can't get yourself to stop doing it. Oh, BTW, I'm about 20 years your senior.
I have not entirely conquered this, but I understand myself a lot better than I did before I started trying. You can, too -- understand why it is you behave this way, and who this "other self" is that seems to be in control.
In all likelihood, the root of your problem is fear. It's the cause of many peoples' problems, and certainly is mine. You're probably afraid of failure, afraid of somehow breaking your in-born talent. These are needless fears, but I've got them, and I know how real they seem. One tool that has helped me identify my fears is Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway by Susan Jeffers. The book is good, the audio is even better. She's a PhD, a psychologist who's spent her career figuring out how to overcome fear.
Another suggestion: start a light exercise program. Don't attempt anything heroic. Just a daily (six days per week) fast walk for 25 minutes will do. It's not just about losing weight -- in fact, that would just be a by-product. The main reason is that as a human being, you were born to run. Your mind will be healthier if you exercise your body, regularly. A great book on the science of this is Spark: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain, by John Ratey. The last 20 years of research in this area have shown an amazing connection.
Others here can help you with your long-term goals: create great things. I can't give much useful advice in that area, yet. What's important, though, is that you grow into self-awareness, in order to gain control over what I believe is probably a low-grade depression -- I'm not a psychologist, but I think I know it when I see it.
Where the mind goes, the body will follow. Conversely, where the body goes, the mind will follow. If you start behaving like someone who feels better than you do, you'll start feeling better. Your body can make your mind improve, and your mind can make your body improve. Trying a bit of both.
It's not uncommon for a situational event (like the ending of a relationship, transition from student to the working world) to trigger depression, especially when you're already under stress.
You don't mention anything about your day job, other than working as a developer at a Fortune 500 company. Could it be you are working at that job because you feel it is the "right" thing to do, rather than what you want to do? Maybe you should start looking for different work that is more in line with what you like to do. That's also a good way to see a salary increase -- in this economy it's not at all unusual to go 3 years without a salary increase. I'm in the same boat there.
In any event, keep seeing your therapist and perhaps even get a second opinion from another psychiatrist. If you are suffering from depression, you won't be able to "man up" or "try harder," or focus, because your body won't let you.
Learn to meditate and don't watch tv. Take fish oil, eat healthy, get exercise, ....
I'm not trying to be a jerk by phrasing it that way, I just feel like you need to be tougher on yourself to reach your goals.
"It's not enough for me to just exist. I feel a deep desire to build, to create, to learn, to teach, and as the weeks and months drag by with no discernible progress made on many of these fronts, my agitation grows."
I suggest you read Symposium by Plato, especially the part where Socrates has his word. Although it was only a small part of the many things that helped me get over this, it is one of the most concrete things I can suggest.
To the parent: Thanks for the reading suggestion. I will check that out.
While on the subject, possibly Alcibiades I by Plato might be an even better read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Alcibiades
That doesn't mean you can't better yourself, but please don't be too hard on yourself for being imperfect. What separates the person you most admire and you isn't as much as you think - in many cases, it's just a bit of luck.
2) 60,000 per year isn't a big paycheck. That's about what I'm making, after getting laid off and taking a big pay cut to get back into the workforce. It's a decent living, but you won't be paying off all of your debts in 3 years with that kind of money.
3) I don't know any 25 year-olds who are debt free unless they're trust-fund babies, and they have their own huge set of problems.
4) The picture you paint in the middle of your diatribe is not a picture of someone who is in control of one's life. Your life has been good to you. You're intelligent and gainfully employed, but I think you're worse off in self-control, discipline and health than you think.
Comments suggesting building good, small habits are some of the best advice you'll get. Don't get discouraged by the "I built this supermassive startup in 2 hours that got bought for 80 bajillion dollars" type stories. They might show up here with frequency, but those kinds of results are atypical at best, and at least one metric, if not all of them, are usually exaggerated. (2 hours of coding, perhaps, but months or years of daydreaming and planning)
As for goals... Give yourself a single daily health or productivity goal if you're one of those impossibly pedantic goal-oriented fiends. Make sure it's attainable. Maybe that'll help you focus.
I will knock out that project by quitting time. I'll ride my bike to work today instead of driving. I'll go to bed before 10:00pm. I'll skip the usual Wednesday trip to Starbucks.
Chances are, you already know what you don't like about your current circumstances, but you just don't have the courage (yet) to face it. The exercise above will help you -- it helped me. I'm quitting my day job this Friday to focus on what I love doing.
I've found it works, because even when I'm lazy, I don't want to let my friend down, and it's a sustainable level of working out. After a few months it starts to have a noticeable impact on everything you do. I'm more confident and more motivated than I was before I started about 8 months ago.
I suggest tackling this from a psychosomatic perspective. The body is an indirect but very powerful agent of change to the mind, Give yourself the permission to be calm and collected and deserve an average, wonderful, American middle-class day without guilt or anxiety. Enjoy that yummy sandwich and coffee and count your blessings. Avoid breathing like a bull in a fight. Avoid walking fast as if you're in a Jason Bourne movie. Avoid thinking rapidly, as if you're a hacker in a bad Hollywood movie. Real-life badasses are often deliberately slow. Real-life geniuses are very slow at the beginning when you ask them a puzzle. Secret : Expand the gap between perception and deliberate-thought as much as possible. That's where the magic happens.
Thus, using your body, allow your mind to reach a place of inner calm. Turns out that Clarity is the perfect path to doing anything good or great. Because it naturally leads to slow-thought, which leads to natural Know Thyself questions, which lead to self-confidence and a moment-by-moment ability to discriminate between what I want to do right now to be genuinely happy vs. what you should do right now as an employee, as a boyfriend, or other role-player (external conditioning). This leads to exercise, cutting down work hours to focus on a startup business plan, being a good serial killer, or whatever it is that you realize as part of the everyday slow Know Thyself process.
All the best! I'm sure you'll do quite well based on what you wrote!
tl;dr version : Deliberately Slow => Mental Clarity. Rest = automatic, by natural design.
I don't know. I did this when I was 25, and two years later, I feel as if I wasted my time.
I'm probably being unfair to myself. I worked on fun little side projects here and there that never went anywhere, but I felt contented. Now I feel like I have to be working on something big; "fun" projects have lost their fun.
For me, this is probably due in part to having made something that got a fair amount of blog coverage last fall, attracting interviews at big tech companies and even a few conference invitations, and then after about six months, landing right back where I started. I feel like this has proven that I should be shooting for the moon, but that I just can't sustain the momentum.
Then one day I just got bored, stopped logging in, and turned my focus to my startup and I haven't looked back since :) (this was 8 months ago or so, we'll see how long it holds)
You need to get obsessed with something. Don't kill it by being overly critical in advance -- e.g., it's too trivial, it's not going to sell, no one else will be interested, .... Those things don't matter. You have to find something that allows you to exercise your talents. You probably have something in the back of your mind already. Maybe some business idea. Start designing a website for it. Or maybe something in technology you want to learn -- a language, a framework, whatever. Find a trivial application to provide programming exercises that you can accomplish in that language.
I wanted to learn Python, read the book, couldn't get interested. Then I had an idea for a programming tool that I wanted for myself. I realized that Python was a really good language for it and became obsessed. Today, (5 years later), I have a really useful tool (still used pretty much just by me), and I've become very proficient in Python. My interests have moved on, but that was a good obsession for a couple of years.
Don't worry about not being productive. Back off and evenutally you'll get interested in something. Then you can be productive.
Personally, I found that taking a full-time programming job destroyed my out-of-office motivation and productivity. It might be worth trying a job in a new industry for a while, or working out some sort of part-time agreement with your employer -- you might find your brain itching to code and produce something after work hours.
Modern careers leave people estranged from their families and without any real friends. Although programmers like to believe their Asperger's syndrome or Randian individualism means they don't need a social or family life, humans are social animals. Not having anyone around who cares about you leaves people anxious and depressed. When you are anxious and depressed it leads to ADHD, hypochondria, and a sense of helplessness. The fact that you are asking this question anonymously on an internet forum leads me to believe your social life probably isn't as good as it could be.
In contrast, when people are surrounded by loved ones all the time generally they have little anxiety or depression even if they have serious physical health problems.