A mostly uninteresting article in my opinion, but didn't agree with this:
> Dr. Bader said that she wished popular magazines would challenge the notion that you shouldn’t get married to change someone.
Most of the relationships I've seen where one partner has a goal of changing the other person have failed. I would bet that this would bear out in a well-designed study as well.
Yeah, it's much easier to find someone you can accept than it is to try to mold someone to your liking. In fact, I would submit that it says quite a bit about the person for attempting that level of control.
I am not innocent. It's a lesson learned in time.
And, yeah, a strange choice of article for HN. But, here we are.
Well, you can just as well be best friends, even if you're wanting to mold each other. Both parties just have to be open-minded about it.
You might even see it as positive to be challenged in your ways, as it helps you to move yourself forward. For example, if you're a couch potato, you might actively look for a sporty partner in hope of being motivated to do sports.
I think the word "goal" is too strong, here, but it is a valid point.
People change, and in a good marriage, the spouses should absolutely push each other to change in ways that are healthy and positive.
It's simply ridiculous to assume that whomever you're marrying, right now, is the person they will be for the rest of their lives, or that you shouldn't try to influence those changes.
In fact, that goes beyond just marriages... I would hope that, in all of my relationships, be it as friend, brother, husband, or son, I am a positive influence on my loved ones, and that those people are a positive influence on me.
I have friends who really aren’t, but they seem to have a rewarding relationship anyway. Not my cup of tea, but other people’s marriages aren’t any of my business!
I am at 10, two kids, going strong and probably forever (who can say for sure, of course?) - and my wife and I have separate best friends.
I really can't see why this has to be the case. There are things my wife should share with someone close that she can fully trust, and sometimes that can't be me. Same is true in the other direction.
That said, I'm curious to hear what kinds of things you're referring to. Do you have some fictional examples?
My wife and I each have our own best friends, but in my own marriage (14 years... since we all have to publish our credentials ;), if there's something I can't tell me wife, it's something I wouldn't tell anyone, best friends included.
The only obvious exception is if it's something about the marriage itself, but in that case, I'd speak to a friend first only if I needed to work out my own thoughts and emotions before I then talked to my wife. So even in that case, it's more a matter of timing than keeping certain things from her entirely.
My wife was my best friend when we got married over twenty years ago, and that has only ripened and deepened since then. She is the person I want to share the joys and rough times with. When I see something beautiful, I want to share it with her. When I have a rough day, or week, I want to talk it over with her. We're raising our children together, planning for our retirement together, and enjoying the days and years as they come.
And I hope the author didn't really mean the "with whom do you complain about your spouse" line. If people respected and worked with their spouses instead of complaining about them to other people, there'd be a lot fewer failed marriages.
Five love languages, yes, I'll have to take a look at his/her.
Men are from mars, women are from Venus was helpful, and what wives wish men knew about women - learning that sometimes you just need to listen (always need to listen, sometimes that's all she needs me to do), and recognizing that it's ok to need space sometimes, etc.
Yeah, I was always trying to "fix" it within a few minutes of hearing her statements. Allowing her to speak it out, develop images in her mind, listening, and then after all that, I don't offer the solution! It is a different way of "communication".
The author actually didn't say "with whom do you complain about your spouse", they said "whom do you complain to your spouse about?", which means something totally different.
> After all, if your spouse is your best friend, then whom do you complain to your spouse about?
Absolutely no one. I've been married for 11 years. My wife isn't perfect of course, but she's still pretty fantastic. She is my best friend, for which I'm thankful. I don't and won't gossip about her.
As a second- or third- hand observer, I can't count the number of times I've heard someone gripe about their spouse and felt sorry for them. Marriage, and relationships generally, are so much richer when you can either get over a minor injury without even mentioning it, or respectfully discuss a more serious one. I know it isn't "cool" to quote scripture around here but the Bible says "Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense." Amen.
> After all, if your spouse is your best friend, then whom do you complain to your spouse about?
I agree with you, with just one small tweak: if your spouse is your best friend, you should complain to your spouse about her. That's in fact what separates a "real friend" from an acquaintance for me - the presumption that my friend really cares about me and is willing to modify their behavior to improve my happiness, within limits.
I completely agree. Griping about every slight your wife makes against you is a good way to make yourself more resentful. Recounting the offense deepens the tracks in your mind the same way a carriage going over the same path several times would.
Absolutely. You and your wife should present a unified front. Solid advice. The wives are all complaining to each other, though. And then those women tell whoever they're dating or married to. So the only people who know about your personal problems are you, your wife, her friends, and the people her friends are with. And that's the best you can hope for while maintaining your own, perfect, unified front. Amen.
Over time, of course, this physical connection wanes. While many bemoan this loss of titillation, Dr. Levine celebrates it. “It’s smart,” he said. “If you’re going to be crazy about the other person all the time, how are you going to raise kids? How are you going to be able to work?”
This article is all kinds of horrifying. The above paragraph plus the phrase "maintenance sex" = ick. What does that mean? "We are just going through the motions cuz we gotta. Kind of like plunging the toilet."?
Maybe you should go read a book like "Lovers in marriage" before you go trying to write anymore marriage advice.
My ex was my best friend. That in no way suggested it was platonic.
I had sex 2 to 3 times a week for 20 years with the same man. The most hot and heavy sex did not occur in the first few months. It occurred when I crossed the country to see him a few years into the marriage when our kids were still little.
I don't feel I am misreading the article. I stand by my horror. Downvotes for saying it don't make me less appalled.
In many perfectly healthy, normal marriages, there's a disparity (sometimes significant) in sexual interest/appetite between the spouses that has absolutely nothing to do with their love for each other and everything to do with basic biological, sociological, and psychological differences.
In such a marriage, sexual intimacy actually requires focused effort to maintain. Not "work". That makes it sound transactional in nature. But effort. Like, you have to prioritize it.
To suggest that marriages in which this is necessary are somehow broken is simply unfair. Every marriage is unique and beyond basic expectations of love and decency, it's unreasonable to use ones own experiences as the template by which to judge other people's relationships.
I was molested and raped as a child. I got married at age 19 to another 19 year old with issues as serious as mine, though different. I did a lot of therapy. We did couples counseling. I also had a higher sex drive than him and was unfaithful, which he knew and did not throw in my face.
Sorry if my remarks bother you, but your assumptions are completely out of line. My marriage was neither easy nor a case of good fortune.
So how about if you try to abide by HN guidelines and leave out the condescension, etc.
"You might find this astonishing, but: other marriages are not like yours" does seem pretty condescending. If you're going to comment here, please be more civil than that.
> What does that mean? "We are just going through the motions cuz we gotta. Kind of like plunging the toilet."?
In a sense, perhaps. A lot of people get into a pattern where they're busy with other things and unable to have the kind of romantic setup they had before. But, on the other hand, people generally enjoy sex even if they have to do something unromantic like set a time on a calendar and just stick to it, and it has the effect of deepening their relationship.
I don't think you and I are on the same page here.
I was married for 22 years. Setting a date and keeping an appointment was not how we handled it. I had a friend who would call me to bitch about how her and her husband did it once a month, they were just too busy and did not have time, etc. My husband would walk in and start making snarky remarks while I was on the phone and I would shush him.
When they were busy, this couple recorded their favorite shows during the week and watched them together on Saturday night. They did not lack the time. They just thought X Files was vastly more important than having a love life.
That was not at all how my marriage worked. I quit being sympathetic. I made polite noises and tried to change the subject.
Make time for each other. Have a date night, even if you are broke and watching a movie on the TV at home. The point is spending time together, not spending money.
Never, ever go to bed mad. Settle it. This is usually followed by makeup sex.
Never tell your spouse to sleep on the couch. If you are so mad that you can't imagine sleeping next to them, grab a blanket and take yourself to the couch. Argue over who gets to declare "No, I'm sleeping on the couch!" (It gets funny at this point and hard to keep a straight face.)
Kiss each other good night every single night, even if you just had a fight. This often initiates makeup sex.
Talk.
Actively look for sexy activities to share, like oil massages.
Shop for naughty lingerie together.
Share your fantasies.
Being a lover in marriage is about trust and intimacy. This requires ongoing efforts at communication. It also requires that you invest time in the relationship. It takes at least 15 hours a week to establish and maintain intimacy. Intimacy is the font of good sex when novelty is no longer your shtick.
Remember that all is fair in love and war and this is love, not war. Make up caring exceptions to the rules you were raised with and to hell with what other people think.
Always fight fair. This is your lover. It undermines the relationship to be nasty to them when you disagree and the price you pay for that often shows up in the bedroom.
Marriage is inherently a big task. There is no way around that.
When you have trust and good communication it makes it easier to get together without an appointment at times when you genuinely are busy and exhausted. You make it clear you need 15 minutes with your wife more than you need that extra 20 minutes of sleep on a night when you have to get up in 5 hours. You humorously agree to The Sedate Thing when you want sex but are not up for The Wild Thing.
You also work at resolving the issues keeping you too exhausted to have quality time. Life happens, but if issues like that never improve, it is often an excuse for people who aren't really comfortable being close for some reason.
That may sound lecturing. It isn't intended to be. It is intended to be empowering. My experience was career military, a very demanding job. We had two special needs kids. I was chronically short of sleep the first 7 years of my oldest son's life and I had chronic health issues.
My husband and I didn't have cushy lives. But we set a high bar for certain things and it paid off.
The article doesn't touch upon it - but IMO, the gender of that "best friend" matters a lot. Most people would probably be just fine with their spouse having another best friend of the same gender, but definitely not of the opposite.
> Most people would probably be just fine with their spouse having another best friend of the same gender, but definitely not of the opposite.
It seems to me that people to whom this makes a difference are both extremely insecure in their partner’s loyalty and extremely secure in their partner’s exclusive heterosexuality.
Take away the former and the concern disappears, take away the latter and the concern remains without the gender disparity.
It's not about the partner's loyalty. Loyalty has very little to do with emotions and works at a higher level. If someone spends a lot of quality time with an individual whilst their home life is stressful (kids etc) then they will almost inevitably develop an attraction to them (or to the idealized version that one has of someone one doesn't have to live with). Meanwhile at home feelings of being in-love have faded to loving and the day-to-day realities are there and obvious. Then it is game over and loyalty is fairly unlikely to prevent things happening.
Better to spend quality time with your spouse and re-enforce the bond the two of you have for each other.
> After all, if your spouse is your best friend, then whom do you complain to your spouse about?
Never complain or otherwise say anything bad about your spouse to anyone but a therapist. Never.
Your therapist doesn't have to forgive your spouse. A therapist doesn't have to like your spouse. While you may forgive them, your friends/family won't be so quick to do so, if they do so at all.
I've never been married, but I don't quite know if it's even possible to be with someone for the long haul and not be close friends. It would be very much unpleasant otherwise. A business transaction of sorts. Having said that, from my personal experience, I think seeing your partner as your only best friend is something comparable to putting all of your eggs in one basket. Nothing lasts forever and as amazing as things look today they might not be all that great tomorrow and all of a sudden you're all you've got. Just for that reason alone I think it's healthy to maintain a close friendship with someone other than your partner.
I am perhaps irrationally annoyed by people calling spouses their “best friends”. We get it: you chose to marry the person so obviously you like this person “best”, therefore someone else should be your “best friend”. A friend is a different thing. You can behave differently with a best friend. You shouldn’t feel like you’re somehow undercutting your spouse just because someone else is your best friend.
Viewing a spouse in terms of a friendship is not helpful in my opinion. Marriage is sui generis. It is, especially if you have kids, an economic and financial partnership. I think my wife is funny and I like spending time with her, but what really lets me sleep deeply at night is that she’s highly capable and professionally successful. I could die tomorrow and my daughter would be well provided for. It’s not something I appreciated when I was young and had fanciful ideas about western love marriage, but is definitely something I appreciate now that I’m old.
Most marriages do not involve two equally-successful professionals, and at least in my case from a purely financial perspective marrying a foreign woman with no real contacts in the US besides me wasn't very advantageous (I should probably clarify that I met my wife abroad because it sounds like I'm talking about a mail-order bride). Nevertheless I think it was worth doing for the tremendously positive effect it's had on my happiness and well-being.
I guess if I had kids I'd have to think about a life insurance policy (I occasionally think about doing that just for my wife).
Well, apart from the US in most western countries you have a strong social safety net so you don't have to marry because of financial worries.
Actually it's sometimes shocking when you see some being better off unemployed while working people can't find an affordable place. But that's another story...
Here are some good points on this. About how expecting all your needs to be met by one person will lead to dysfunction and how we create organizations to fulfill these needs. The groups the make the most impact are those of sufficient size to fulfill all these needs.
The article mostly throws up its metaphorical hands and concludes "maybe, language is hard", which is fair enough. But:
> if your spouse is your best friend, then whom do you complain to your spouse about?
Complaining about your spouse to your friends is a wonderful way to damage your relationship; the unthinking assumption that you should be venting about your spouse is harmful and should be challenged.
> Dr. Bader said that she wished popular magazines would challenge the notion that you shouldn’t get married to change someone. “I think that’s what marriage is about,” she said.
That sounds like horrifying bad advice if taken literally. I hope there was some context that was omitted from the article. People certainly can and do change, and obviously spouses should help encourage each other to change for the better. So sure, marriage is, in part, about change, inasmuch as marriage is a part of life, and life is about change. But to get married in order to change someone? As in "wow, I hate how extroverted this person I'm dating is, I know we'll get married so I can make them introverted"? That's the opposite of a good idea, and warning people off it is a staple of popular magazines, unpopular magazines, relationship counselling, and dating advice because it's a really dumb notion.
Complaining about your spouse to your friends is a wonderful way to damage your relationship; the unthinking assumption that you should be venting about your spouse is harmful and should be challenged.
Just on this point, I couldn't agree more.
The problem with "venting" is that whomever is listening is almost certainly part of your personal echo chamber. And when dealing with a problem in one's marriage, the last thing people need are mirrors reflecting themselves.
I can't tell you the number of times I've come out of a fight with my wife where, some time later, I realized I was a total ass and needed to apologize for my behaviour.
If I'd "vented" to someone, odds are it would've just hardened my resolve.
54 comments
[ 3.6 ms ] story [ 112 ms ] thread> Dr. Bader said that she wished popular magazines would challenge the notion that you shouldn’t get married to change someone.
Most of the relationships I've seen where one partner has a goal of changing the other person have failed. I would bet that this would bear out in a well-designed study as well.
I am not innocent. It's a lesson learned in time.
And, yeah, a strange choice of article for HN. But, here we are.
You might even see it as positive to be challenged in your ways, as it helps you to move yourself forward. For example, if you're a couch potato, you might actively look for a sporty partner in hope of being motivated to do sports.
People change, and in a good marriage, the spouses should absolutely push each other to change in ways that are healthy and positive.
It's simply ridiculous to assume that whomever you're marrying, right now, is the person they will be for the rest of their lives, or that you shouldn't try to influence those changes.
In fact, that goes beyond just marriages... I would hope that, in all of my relationships, be it as friend, brother, husband, or son, I am a positive influence on my loved ones, and that those people are a positive influence on me.
I have friends who really aren’t, but they seem to have a rewarding relationship anyway. Not my cup of tea, but other people’s marriages aren’t any of my business!
I personally think my marriage could have been ruined many times over if I leaned on someone other than my wife during times of difficulty.
I really can't see why this has to be the case. There are things my wife should share with someone close that she can fully trust, and sometimes that can't be me. Same is true in the other direction.
That said, I'm curious to hear what kinds of things you're referring to. Do you have some fictional examples?
My wife and I each have our own best friends, but in my own marriage (14 years... since we all have to publish our credentials ;), if there's something I can't tell me wife, it's something I wouldn't tell anyone, best friends included.
The only obvious exception is if it's something about the marriage itself, but in that case, I'd speak to a friend first only if I needed to work out my own thoughts and emotions before I then talked to my wife. So even in that case, it's more a matter of timing than keeping certain things from her entirely.
And I hope the author didn't really mean the "with whom do you complain about your spouse" line. If people respected and worked with their spouses instead of complaining about them to other people, there'd be a lot fewer failed marriages.
Men are from mars, women are from Venus was helpful, and what wives wish men knew about women - learning that sometimes you just need to listen (always need to listen, sometimes that's all she needs me to do), and recognizing that it's ok to need space sometimes, etc.
But do people complain about best friends to spouses? I unfortunately know of many people who complain about spouses to friends.
Absolutely no one. I've been married for 11 years. My wife isn't perfect of course, but she's still pretty fantastic. She is my best friend, for which I'm thankful. I don't and won't gossip about her.
As a second- or third- hand observer, I can't count the number of times I've heard someone gripe about their spouse and felt sorry for them. Marriage, and relationships generally, are so much richer when you can either get over a minor injury without even mentioning it, or respectfully discuss a more serious one. I know it isn't "cool" to quote scripture around here but the Bible says "Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense." Amen.
I agree with you, with just one small tweak: if your spouse is your best friend, you should complain to your spouse about her. That's in fact what separates a "real friend" from an acquaintance for me - the presumption that my friend really cares about me and is willing to modify their behavior to improve my happiness, within limits.
Wait, I forgot about family!
This article is all kinds of horrifying. The above paragraph plus the phrase "maintenance sex" = ick. What does that mean? "We are just going through the motions cuz we gotta. Kind of like plunging the toilet."?
Maybe you should go read a book like "Lovers in marriage" before you go trying to write anymore marriage advice.
My ex was my best friend. That in no way suggested it was platonic.
In other words, I read it as descriptive, not prescriptive.
I don't feel I am misreading the article. I stand by my horror. Downvotes for saying it don't make me less appalled.
In many perfectly healthy, normal marriages, there's a disparity (sometimes significant) in sexual interest/appetite between the spouses that has absolutely nothing to do with their love for each other and everything to do with basic biological, sociological, and psychological differences.
In such a marriage, sexual intimacy actually requires focused effort to maintain. Not "work". That makes it sound transactional in nature. But effort. Like, you have to prioritize it.
To suggest that marriages in which this is necessary are somehow broken is simply unfair. Every marriage is unique and beyond basic expectations of love and decency, it's unreasonable to use ones own experiences as the template by which to judge other people's relationships.
Sorry if my remarks bother you, but your assumptions are completely out of line. My marriage was neither easy nor a case of good fortune.
So how about if you try to abide by HN guidelines and leave out the condescension, etc.
This article is all kinds of horrifying. ... "We are just going through the motions cuz we gotta. Kind of like plunging the toilet."?
Maybe you should go read a book like "Lovers in marriage" before you go trying to write anymore marriage advice.
Or, you know, you can make time for each other because this is the most important person in your life. Instead of making excuses.
I could go on.
I did not set the tone, here, and I stand by my comment.
In a sense, perhaps. A lot of people get into a pattern where they're busy with other things and unable to have the kind of romantic setup they had before. But, on the other hand, people generally enjoy sex even if they have to do something unromantic like set a time on a calendar and just stick to it, and it has the effect of deepening their relationship.
Firsthand experience suggests to me that such an approach leads to better experience over time, not going through the motions.
I was married for 22 years. Setting a date and keeping an appointment was not how we handled it. I had a friend who would call me to bitch about how her and her husband did it once a month, they were just too busy and did not have time, etc. My husband would walk in and start making snarky remarks while I was on the phone and I would shush him.
When they were busy, this couple recorded their favorite shows during the week and watched them together on Saturday night. They did not lack the time. They just thought X Files was vastly more important than having a love life.
That was not at all how my marriage worked. I quit being sympathetic. I made polite noises and tried to change the subject.
Never, ever go to bed mad. Settle it. This is usually followed by makeup sex.
Never tell your spouse to sleep on the couch. If you are so mad that you can't imagine sleeping next to them, grab a blanket and take yourself to the couch. Argue over who gets to declare "No, I'm sleeping on the couch!" (It gets funny at this point and hard to keep a straight face.)
Kiss each other good night every single night, even if you just had a fight. This often initiates makeup sex.
Talk.
Actively look for sexy activities to share, like oil massages.
Shop for naughty lingerie together.
Share your fantasies.
Being a lover in marriage is about trust and intimacy. This requires ongoing efforts at communication. It also requires that you invest time in the relationship. It takes at least 15 hours a week to establish and maintain intimacy. Intimacy is the font of good sex when novelty is no longer your shtick.
Remember that all is fair in love and war and this is love, not war. Make up caring exceptions to the rules you were raised with and to hell with what other people think.
Always fight fair. This is your lover. It undermines the relationship to be nasty to them when you disagree and the price you pay for that often shows up in the bedroom.
When you have trust and good communication it makes it easier to get together without an appointment at times when you genuinely are busy and exhausted. You make it clear you need 15 minutes with your wife more than you need that extra 20 minutes of sleep on a night when you have to get up in 5 hours. You humorously agree to The Sedate Thing when you want sex but are not up for The Wild Thing.
You also work at resolving the issues keeping you too exhausted to have quality time. Life happens, but if issues like that never improve, it is often an excuse for people who aren't really comfortable being close for some reason.
That may sound lecturing. It isn't intended to be. It is intended to be empowering. My experience was career military, a very demanding job. We had two special needs kids. I was chronically short of sleep the first 7 years of my oldest son's life and I had chronic health issues.
My husband and I didn't have cushy lives. But we set a high bar for certain things and it paid off.
Best.
It seems to me that people to whom this makes a difference are both extremely insecure in their partner’s loyalty and extremely secure in their partner’s exclusive heterosexuality.
Take away the former and the concern disappears, take away the latter and the concern remains without the gender disparity.
Better to spend quality time with your spouse and re-enforce the bond the two of you have for each other.
Never complain or otherwise say anything bad about your spouse to anyone but a therapist. Never.
Your therapist doesn't have to forgive your spouse. A therapist doesn't have to like your spouse. While you may forgive them, your friends/family won't be so quick to do so, if they do so at all.
I guess if I had kids I'd have to think about a life insurance policy (I occasionally think about doing that just for my wife).
Actually it's sometimes shocking when you see some being better off unemployed while working people can't find an affordable place. But that's another story...
http://us1.campaign-archive.com/?u=78cbbb7f2882629a5157fa593...
> if your spouse is your best friend, then whom do you complain to your spouse about?
Complaining about your spouse to your friends is a wonderful way to damage your relationship; the unthinking assumption that you should be venting about your spouse is harmful and should be challenged.
> Dr. Bader said that she wished popular magazines would challenge the notion that you shouldn’t get married to change someone. “I think that’s what marriage is about,” she said.
That sounds like horrifying bad advice if taken literally. I hope there was some context that was omitted from the article. People certainly can and do change, and obviously spouses should help encourage each other to change for the better. So sure, marriage is, in part, about change, inasmuch as marriage is a part of life, and life is about change. But to get married in order to change someone? As in "wow, I hate how extroverted this person I'm dating is, I know we'll get married so I can make them introverted"? That's the opposite of a good idea, and warning people off it is a staple of popular magazines, unpopular magazines, relationship counselling, and dating advice because it's a really dumb notion.
Just on this point, I couldn't agree more.
The problem with "venting" is that whomever is listening is almost certainly part of your personal echo chamber. And when dealing with a problem in one's marriage, the last thing people need are mirrors reflecting themselves.
I can't tell you the number of times I've come out of a fight with my wife where, some time later, I realized I was a total ass and needed to apologize for my behaviour.
If I'd "vented" to someone, odds are it would've just hardened my resolve.