> "But as our economy continues to circle the drain, will Americans part with their beloved toilet paper in order to adopt more money-saving measures? Or will we keep flushing our cash away?"
written in 2009, so I guess we know that yeah, we will continue using toilet paper. Though more are using flush-able wipes
Something I find quite strange is how South American countries pervasively discourage people from flushing used toilet paper (instead preferring to have a little wastebasket to collect it and later throw it away in the trash). The usual account of the reason for this is that the plumbing can't handle it -- which you also hear about some old buildings in the U.S.
OK, but this norm persists even in buildings that were constructed within the last decade, like some super-recent hotels and airport terminals. Surely the plumbing there should be able to handle toilet paper, right?
If the signs say don't flush anything down, they usually mean anything other than toilet paper and bodily excretions. Flushing tampons, pads, condoms, whatever the hell else is in your pocket is common and that is what those signs are discouraging. Toilet paper is designed to basically disintegrate once it gets wet, so it is not causing any problems in plumbing
That may be because you are using paper which isn't designed to disintegrate upon contact with water. My anus does recall travels in South America where provided toilet products were rough and relatively ineffective. At least in North Africa and China you are living in a capitalistic market where toilet products of varying qualities can be readily had.
In Korea there are buildings that still insist you don't flush toilet paper. They usually say specifically toilet paper. My position is that it would not be dangerous to ignore this, firstly, because like you stated toilet paper is very weak when wet, and secondly, the impression that I got was that it was mostly an old-fashioned idea.
It's a bad idea. I'm not sure about Korea specifically, but a lot of developing nations have old/narrow pipes and they don't have the waste treatment facilities to deal with toilet paper. They might not have the money to install advanced filtering or even activated charcoal. Often times the waste water is just diluted and dumped into oceans or lakes.
I encounter the "toilet paper in the trash can" signs first in Moldova. The Nistru river has high levels of cholera, so it makes sense they simply do not have advanced treatment facilities.
This may have to do more with their toilet paper technology instead of their pipes. Mere rolls of wood pulp may be cheaper to produce - and importantly more likely to cause clogs - in some locales than ultra soft quilted quad-ply.
> Flushing tampons, pads, condoms, whatever the hell else is in your pocket is...
...always a bad idea.
Just because you don't hear about problems with sewer systems, does not mean they are nonexistent. Also, flushing anything that doesn't disintegrate will quickly ruin any septic tank/leech field.
And restrooms in stores along the U.S. border where people cross from Mexico often have to have signs in Spanish telling people to please flush their toilet paper and not throw it on the floor beside the toilet or go out into other parts of the store and drag trash cans into the restrooms to dispose of it in.
(This is not intended as a criticism of Mexicans, merely a comment on the fact that just across the border such practices still remain very active. Unfortunately due to the clash of expected practices, their belief that it's necessary to avoid clogging plumbing, and the U.S. lack of such a practice meaning there isn't a wastebasket beside each toilet, it often leads to rather unhygienic restrooms. In some cases, stores compromise and put wastebaskets in as well so everyone is satisfied.)
Not uncommon in Europe either. Especially in non-renovated parts of old cities or middle-of-nowhere kind of places. Old pipes just can't handle too much paper.
Come to Baltic states or Poland then. It does happen in either super old and not yet renovated downtown buildings or roadside establishments in the middle of nowhere. Old narrow pipes just can't take paper. Especially if someone loves to fold it few times...
I think I've seen that in the UK as well, but memory may be playing tricks on me.
Here in Japan, I've never been to a place where you don't flush your toilet paper. In fact, they sometimes run into the opposite problem, with tourists not knowing you're supposed to flush the paper (https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/08/26/national/kyoto-...). Part of this might be because you're not supposed to flush sanitary napkins or anything but toilet paper, so there's often a bin next to the toilets for disposing of those, which I could see as confusing to someone who comes from a culture where you don't flush toilet paper.
Encountered it in Canada in the maritimes. Anywhere on the coast there were places that just had a pipe going straight into the ocean. Cafes, restaurants, you name it. There were even portable toilets set up with the pipes so they never had to be pumped. I'm guessing they don't want to see tons of toilet paper floating in the ocean I guess, but excrement is not a problem? Maybe someone else has some better insight, for instance I know in the states if it rains too much and sewage backs up a bit, the beaches get closed. Do Canadians not see a problem with high bacteria levels?
It's not an isolated thing and comes up often... Canadians just seem backward at sewage management[1][2].
The only guess I have is that Victoria uses sewage pumps somewhere in their system that shoot it into the sewer. The maritime systems are literally just a pipe so maybe more prone to clogging?
For systems that pump to the sea, the waste is pumped to large enough distance from the shore that by the time it reaches the shore again (as determined by currents and who knows what else) it is sufficiently disintegrated and decomposed to not be harmful for swimmers on the beach. Remember this from my uncle who is an engineer and works in sewage systems design, construction, and maintenance.
A distance I think he mentioned for a specific construction he was working on was 350 meters from shore, but this could be incorrect.
Same thing in Moldova. I was told it was the old plumbing that candle handle large amounts of toilet paper, but I have a feeling it might also be antiquated treatment facilities that can't deal with paper breakdown either.
"The question is, if toilet paper becomes a luxury item, can Americans live without it?"
The article itself appears to be part of the marketing machine. I don't at all consider toilet paper a luxury, in fact using water seems far more satisfactory and hygienic.
Japanese style washlets and european bidets are the luxury, um, end, of the market. If anything, plain toilet paper is set to be discarded as a rather unhygienic relic.
I hate traveling outside Japan! Can't live without "shower toilets" (that's how they're called here). It's hardly a luxury. It's an essential household equipment!
I feel like I'm going to barbarian lands when I leave Japan (for the sake of full disclosure, I'm not Japanese)
Those are generally "flushable" in the same sense that gravel is flushable, i.e. they'll fit through the bottom of the toilet but no guarantees after that.
I see you have never lived outside the city. Those will ruin any septic system in a hurry. Not great for city sewage. Where do yiu think wipes go when you flush them? Away? Someone has to deal with it eventually.
Japanese washlets heat it up, as well as your seat. Including temperature and pressure control. Pretty awesome, I wonder why everyone else thought around 1970 that toilets are good enough now.
Anything heating up water, makes it necessary to to install a water softening plant or either the device - and/or the piping is in for a change after 15 to 25 years (depending on the lime levels in your water table).
Toilet paper. You'll still cut down your consumption (60% on average from my personal numbers) and you'll need it for visitors who are not into 'that bidet thing'
I keep a lotion bottle next to my toilet. Not only is lotion cheap, it's lubricating as it cleans, so it helps make the next wipe cleaner than just using a wet wipe! Lotion ftw.
I visited Japan, they had so many awesome toilets, I had to take videos and photos of all the crazy versions and options in restaurants, public, at home etc... they are awesome.
Also, the standard toilet conserves water by adding a small hand washing sink to the top of the tank, brilliant! Google this, as it's so common sense, I can't understand why it hasn't spread wider. This kind of toilet allows for a tiny extra bathroom, without the need of a sink, and it's still sanitary.
That's interesting, but doesn't algae need light to grow? The tanks are solid porcelain. Even our fish tank, if not near a window won't grow algae, move it near a window and 2 days later it's turning green.
Also, I looked in the tank, and it was spotless. I think any concerns of growth of anything in the tank are far outweighed by the water savings. I'd guess millions of gallons a year across Japan with just this one feature.
Toilet paper use is a sign of an uncivilized society. Civilized societies uses bidets in their various forms, with the Japanese ahead of everyone else.
Agreed, toilet paper falls short in nearly every regard compared to a bidet or a "bum gun". Using water is faster, cleaner, and more environmentally friendly.
This might be TMI but I never understood toilet paper. Think about it. You are taking a piece of paper and just spreading it around. No matter how hard you try it's still there. It's not clean. Gross.
In fact, the use of toilet paper has spurred a whole new industry that most other countries don't have...the ointment industry.
No most are just detergents that make the dirt loose and then you wash it off using water. Anti-bacterial soap kills the bacteria before you wash them off using water.
My hands get dirty using shit tickets. I hope you know yours do too. You do wash after rubbing a highly porous sheet of paper around in your poops, don't you?
Your hands do not get dirty because you just wet half the toilet paper. Only half of it really touches you, the other half is what you're holding. Either way, your bum is clean because of the water vs. using dry toilet paper.
But in the end, it doesn't beat a washlet or bidet.
Seems like that same logic would obviate the dish cloth/sponge, dust cloth, mop, and towel too. Since these devices actually work, I suspect you're thesis is kinda wrong. Needless to say, when you wipe with an "clean" cloth, some of the material you want to remove sticks to the cloth and gets removed, leaving less on the surface being cleaned. Some number of repetitions pushes the concentration down below whatever it is you want to consider your target.
It works no differently for poop or spilled gravy.
I'll take no position on the bidet vs. paper debate.
(First off, let me just say how hilarious it is that no less than two people are actually downvoting me over a bidet comment. I eagerly await more.)
If I had to, sure. You realize people did this successfully for like... always, right? Sure, detergent and water and abrasion works better, but bidets don't provide two of those three elements.
What you're really wanting to compare is getting shit (just call it shit, OK?) off your hands with only toilet paper or only water, I guess. And if I was really forced to make that choice... honestly, I'd want to see numbers. Toilet paper will 100% absolutely get things visually cleaner than mere washing at household faucet flow rates. Go try it sometime.
Water from a properly-functioning bidet certainly does provide water and water abrasion, since the pressure is far higher than an open pipe. In fact, if a bidet is activated full-blast without someone on it, it will typically reach the ceiling. Furthermore, almost all detergents will damage the anus, so that is not something desirable for this application; even those detergents that work for some people will cause excessive dryness of the skin for others.
If one is willing to use their hand to provide abrasion, merely poured water enables far superior waste removal than toilet paper. This can easily be tested by using swabs and agar plates, which I did in my childhood to my own satisfaction; I'd be surprised if peer-reviewed experiments haven't yet confirmed this, but I haven't looked for them either.
> If one is willing to use their hand to provide abrasion, merely poured water enables far superior waste removal than toilet paper.
Trouble is, you then have excrement on your hand. So perhaps there is a trade off between having a clean butthole and a clean hand?
Another benefit of toilet paper is immediate feedback - you can wipe and inspect the paper, then repeat with clean paper until you are satisfied with the result. With poured water, how do you know when you are 'done'?
Speaking of TMI, one solution (ahem) to spreading feces around is to spit on one side of the toilet paper and then wipe. After several repetitions with fresh paper/saliva, the paper will come back relatively clean and you can then use plain paper to dry.
(I learned to do this from my Asian mom. When I finally did travel to Japan, I greatly preferred their washlets to US-style toilets.)
Tried a Japanese toilet, I like the combination of spray + paper. Spraying alone would be gross, I'll take the paper alone over the spray alone (Japan seems to agree at least with public toilets that don't have sprays). It's just like your hands not being clean until you dry them. But really any method that doesn't use soap is leaving you dirty until you can shower.
What I don't get is why anyone wants to take cleanliness advice from cultures that still follow a "one hand for eating, one for wiping" custom.
That's not an area of your body that you should be washing with soap very often. It's a mucous membrane, and if you soap those up they get dry and irritated.
My doctor told me this when I complained of itching and irritation, and following his advice finally got me some much-needed relief.
Factually incorrect article - fails to mention the Chinese at all, and credits America with the invention of soft toilet paper.
"From the records of the Imperial Bureau of Supplies of that same year [1398], it was also recorded that for the Hongwu Emperor's imperial family alone, there were 15,000 sheets of special soft-fabric toilet paper made, and each sheet of toilet paper was even perfumed."
OK, if we are going to talk about toilet paper and its use...I'm reminded of a Q&A column at some gaming site about 15 years ago. Someone wrote in and said that he and his friends were talking after a LAN party, and somehow the question of which direction you wipe came up. He said that he was the only one in the group who went bottom to top (bottom up). Everyone else did top to bottom (top down), and told him he was a freak.
The columnist, after wondering why the hell this topic came up after their LAN party, admitted, if I recall correctly, to also going bottom up, and she asked around the office and found that something like 90 went top down.
I was totally surprised by this question. It never occurred to me that anyone would use the opposite direction from the one I use. The thing is, I have no idea why I go the way I do...presumably I was taught that when I was young enough to need assistance, so presumably I learned to use the same direction as my teachers, but that's before my earliest memories.
If the columnist's observation, and the original questioner's observation, and what I and a friend observed when we asked around at work, hold up, then it looks like there is a heavy skew toward top down.
So...how does bottom up persist? Unless there is some factor that tends to make bottom up people tend to marry other bottom up people, most bottom up people will marry to down people, and so most children of bottom people will be raised in a mixed direction household. So shouldn't half of them take after their top down parent, and so shouldn't the bottom up fraction be decreasing?
Or...maybe some people who themselves use top down find bottom up works better when they are teaching a young child, and that leads some children of top down households to end up bottom up?
There's probably some fascinating psychology research possibilities in this, but because we generally don't wipe in public or talk about it, it gets lost in the cracks.
An abundance of anus hairs in my case. Top to bottom (back to front) aligns the hairs in such a way that they don't end up stuck in the anus hole, which I've experienced leading to itching and irritation. However, at least one front to back (bottom to top?) is mandatory in the middle of the loop for increased cleanliness, as either the skin folds or anus hairs obscure some fecal matter that the top to bottom (back to front) directionality doesn't pick up.
From reading through some of the comments I really have to ask, is wiping ones ass really that complicated?
Get some single ply (not the cheap shit in public bathrooms, which is often like 0.25 ply or whatever the fuck ... fucking wax paper or some shit), fold it sheet-over-sheet using 5 sheets (defined by the perforation) for the first wipe, use 4 or 5 sheets for the second wipe, then finish off with a third wipe at 4 sheets. A wipe is one iteration through the ass_wipe_process loop, which has 2-3 sub-wipes depending on how comfortable you feel folding in half the 4-5 sheet-over-sheet folded unit.
I'm a dude, so I wipe back to front the first few sub-wipes, with a front to back followed back a back to front mixed in there somewhere. The reason for this directionality has to do with the length of my anus hair, which depends on when I've groomed it. The longer the anus hair, the more likely a front to back sub-wipe will lead to anus hairs in the butthole, causing itching and irritation. For some reason this doesn't happen with the back to front sub-wipe, so that is mandatory after a front to back, in order to realign the anus hairs.
Pro-Tip: Only groom hair close to the anus, otherwise you might end up with an ass-cyst from sitting on a groomed region where the hair can't properly grow out due to the pressure from sitting. Generally there's less constipation after grooming as though the hairs themselves bind the anus closed or some shit.
I mean seriously, just fucking take this shit seriously and do it right so you don't end up with shit in your undies stinking up the place or spreading fecal matter all over the place, getting people sick.
Toilet Paper is obsolete and just plain nasty and Wet Wipes are causing expensive clogs in the sewers and septic systems. With modern plumbing we should all be washing not wiping and the best way to do that is with a Hand Bidet Sprayer. Far cleaner, healthier, saves money and you never run out. See www.bathroomsprayer.com.
105 comments
[ 3.5 ms ] story [ 178 ms ] threadwritten in 2009, so I guess we know that yeah, we will continue using toilet paper. Though more are using flush-able wipes
[1] http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/flushable-wipes-clogging-canad...
[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/nyregion/the-wet-wipes-bo...
Edit: And, just in case you wanted to know more: they cause serious damage. [3]
[3] https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/09/putrid-130-ton-mass-...
[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/10/are-wet-...
OK, but this norm persists even in buildings that were constructed within the last decade, like some super-recent hotels and airport terminals. Surely the plumbing there should be able to handle toilet paper, right?
I encounter the "toilet paper in the trash can" signs first in Moldova. The Nistru river has high levels of cholera, so it makes sense they simply do not have advanced treatment facilities.
...always a bad idea.
Just because you don't hear about problems with sewer systems, does not mean they are nonexistent. Also, flushing anything that doesn't disintegrate will quickly ruin any septic tank/leech field.
(This is not intended as a criticism of Mexicans, merely a comment on the fact that just across the border such practices still remain very active. Unfortunately due to the clash of expected practices, their belief that it's necessary to avoid clogging plumbing, and the U.S. lack of such a practice meaning there isn't a wastebasket beside each toilet, it often leads to rather unhygienic restrooms. In some cases, stores compromise and put wastebaskets in as well so everyone is satisfied.)
I think I've seen that in the UK as well, but memory may be playing tricks on me.
I'm certain I haven't seen this anywhere in the UK (I live there).
It's not an isolated thing and comes up often... Canadians just seem backward at sewage management[1][2].
[1] http://thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/canada-dumping-...
[2] https://qz.com/545922/canadas-new-government-just-approved-d...
A distance I think he mentioned for a specific construction he was working on was 350 meters from shore, but this could be incorrect.
The trick is in the timing.
The article itself appears to be part of the marketing machine. I don't at all consider toilet paper a luxury, in fact using water seems far more satisfactory and hygienic.
Japanese style washlets and european bidets are the luxury, um, end, of the market. If anything, plain toilet paper is set to be discarded as a rather unhygienic relic.
I feel like I'm going to barbarian lands when I leave Japan (for the sake of full disclosure, I'm not Japanese)
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Huggies-Pull-Ups-Big-Kid-Flushabl...
Don't believe them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgHVO-RZ8c4
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatberg
$35 and you can install it in about 5 minutes flat. It's terrific, can't go back to TP ever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_softening
PS: Dont be fooled to buy a system with mandatory ion-exchanger cartdrige. All one needs is salt to rejuvenate the ion exchanger.
I visited Japan, they had so many awesome toilets, I had to take videos and photos of all the crazy versions and options in restaurants, public, at home etc... they are awesome.
Also, the standard toilet conserves water by adding a small hand washing sink to the top of the tank, brilliant! Google this, as it's so common sense, I can't understand why it hasn't spread wider. This kind of toilet allows for a tiny extra bathroom, without the need of a sink, and it's still sanitary.
Also, I looked in the tank, and it was spotless. I think any concerns of growth of anything in the tank are far outweighed by the water savings. I'd guess millions of gallons a year across Japan with just this one feature.
PS: That is why algae can grow in sewers.
lol, I googled "heterotrophe in toilet tank from soap" and your comment came up. :P
I did some searching, I simply can't see any problems with this. Worst case it seems you have to clean your tank.
Besides, doesn't the water and soap from your sink end up in the sewer anyway? Just not seeing the problem.
(Somewhat disappointingly) there is now an explanation for this:
https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/6688/how-did-the-t...
- India
In fact, the use of toilet paper has spurred a whole new industry that most other countries don't have...the ointment industry.
Washlets or bidets are far cleaner and preferred.
But in the end, it doesn't beat a washlet or bidet.
It works no differently for poop or spilled gravy.
I'll take no position on the bidet vs. paper debate.
Let's assume you have poop on your hands, would you clean yourself with paper?
If I had to, sure. You realize people did this successfully for like... always, right? Sure, detergent and water and abrasion works better, but bidets don't provide two of those three elements.
What you're really wanting to compare is getting shit (just call it shit, OK?) off your hands with only toilet paper or only water, I guess. And if I was really forced to make that choice... honestly, I'd want to see numbers. Toilet paper will 100% absolutely get things visually cleaner than mere washing at household faucet flow rates. Go try it sometime.
If one is willing to use their hand to provide abrasion, merely poured water enables far superior waste removal than toilet paper. This can easily be tested by using swabs and agar plates, which I did in my childhood to my own satisfaction; I'd be surprised if peer-reviewed experiments haven't yet confirmed this, but I haven't looked for them either.
Trouble is, you then have excrement on your hand. So perhaps there is a trade off between having a clean butthole and a clean hand?
Another benefit of toilet paper is immediate feedback - you can wipe and inspect the paper, then repeat with clean paper until you are satisfied with the result. With poured water, how do you know when you are 'done'?
In the UK bidets are not that common but in Spain, where I live atm, they are.
Now I'll reveal my ignorance by stating I thought one was meant to compliment the other.
(I learned to do this from my Asian mom. When I finally did travel to Japan, I greatly preferred their washlets to US-style toilets.)
EDIT: adjective/quantifier, punctuation, adverb
What I don't get is why anyone wants to take cleanliness advice from cultures that still follow a "one hand for eating, one for wiping" custom.
My doctor told me this when I complained of itching and irritation, and following his advice finally got me some much-needed relief.
"From the records of the Imperial Bureau of Supplies of that same year [1398], it was also recorded that for the Hongwu Emperor's imperial family alone, there were 15,000 sheets of special soft-fabric toilet paper made, and each sheet of toilet paper was even perfumed."
The columnist, after wondering why the hell this topic came up after their LAN party, admitted, if I recall correctly, to also going bottom up, and she asked around the office and found that something like 90 went top down.
I was totally surprised by this question. It never occurred to me that anyone would use the opposite direction from the one I use. The thing is, I have no idea why I go the way I do...presumably I was taught that when I was young enough to need assistance, so presumably I learned to use the same direction as my teachers, but that's before my earliest memories.
If the columnist's observation, and the original questioner's observation, and what I and a friend observed when we asked around at work, hold up, then it looks like there is a heavy skew toward top down.
So...how does bottom up persist? Unless there is some factor that tends to make bottom up people tend to marry other bottom up people, most bottom up people will marry to down people, and so most children of bottom people will be raised in a mixed direction household. So shouldn't half of them take after their top down parent, and so shouldn't the bottom up fraction be decreasing?
Or...maybe some people who themselves use top down find bottom up works better when they are teaching a young child, and that leads some children of top down households to end up bottom up?
There's probably some fascinating psychology research possibilities in this, but because we generally don't wipe in public or talk about it, it gets lost in the cracks.
Get some single ply (not the cheap shit in public bathrooms, which is often like 0.25 ply or whatever the fuck ... fucking wax paper or some shit), fold it sheet-over-sheet using 5 sheets (defined by the perforation) for the first wipe, use 4 or 5 sheets for the second wipe, then finish off with a third wipe at 4 sheets. A wipe is one iteration through the ass_wipe_process loop, which has 2-3 sub-wipes depending on how comfortable you feel folding in half the 4-5 sheet-over-sheet folded unit.
I'm a dude, so I wipe back to front the first few sub-wipes, with a front to back followed back a back to front mixed in there somewhere. The reason for this directionality has to do with the length of my anus hair, which depends on when I've groomed it. The longer the anus hair, the more likely a front to back sub-wipe will lead to anus hairs in the butthole, causing itching and irritation. For some reason this doesn't happen with the back to front sub-wipe, so that is mandatory after a front to back, in order to realign the anus hairs.
Pro-Tip: Only groom hair close to the anus, otherwise you might end up with an ass-cyst from sitting on a groomed region where the hair can't properly grow out due to the pressure from sitting. Generally there's less constipation after grooming as though the hairs themselves bind the anus closed or some shit.
I mean seriously, just fucking take this shit seriously and do it right so you don't end up with shit in your undies stinking up the place or spreading fecal matter all over the place, getting people sick.