I have read about the caste system and issue in India. I have lot of Indian friends in US, but I never feel that there is any caste system among them. Is that just my experience (maybe my ignorance)?
Having said that caste discrimination is a problem in the UK in fact I know one of the MP's that helped add caste discrimination to the Equality Act 2010.
Of course this is being opposed by "community leaders".
I doubt Indians in the US, especially the ones who grew up here would be participating in any type of caste "system", but people in the lower or lowest castes wouldn't be in the US in the first place due to lack of resources.
It's more about your education level and how useful you are than who your ancestors were, but that is many times intertwined.
Edit: India, like most places, is in the middle of re-drawing it's caste system along socioeconomic lines. Of course, the lower castes will still be on the bottom and possibly discriminated against due to being behind on resources being passed down to them.
> but people in the lower or lowest castes wouldn't be in the US in the first place due to lack of resources
While Indians in the US tend toward the upper castes, it's not true that there aren't any people in the US of lower caste as well. Even in India the disparity between the castes is narrowing as affirmative action and modernization render such differences moot–as such, it isn't really true that people of lower cast have a "lack of resources", so there are people that are able to come over.
It all depends how you define lower castes. I’m not talking about farmer vs merchant vs priest, but about the castes that are toiling in the farms and untouchables or others who can’t even read, surely they are considered to have a lack of resources.
Most modern Indians don't have such a strong affinity to their caste but it still plays a role in their lives. Indians who moved to the US don't usually group based on their caste but in India it is still the case, especially in rural areas. Politics in India are divided along caste lines and you see all sorts of things like these, which are usually politically motivated. I can't comment on whether this particular incident is politically motivated as well.
Selection bias, because of the cultural, educational, and or financial resources required to come to the US, they are far more likely to come from the mid to upper echelons of the social structure in India. They are also more likely to be upper socioeconomic class in the US, so less incentive to act on caste identity.
Most of the violent aspects of caste discrimination occur at lower socioeconomic levels, where the intensity of the tribalism is exacerbated by poverty.
However, many middle class Indians in the US still follow traditional caste rules in aspects of their personal lives, particularly in marriage, and sometimes in other social associations.
There is also some selection bias among many Indian immigrants towards egalitarianism, leaving behind stifling aspects of the old culture.
The horrible acts of discrimination described in the article are a product of both the Indian social structure and the local communal conflicts.
One of my former supervisors informed me to this reality. He laments having to travel through Singapore because the experience of an Indian over there is more troubling as he is in the minority being well todo and educated while the bulk of Indians in Singapore are lower class/uneducated and treated differently. He said something to that extent, and I realized that yes the ones who managed to make the big trip here had in fact passed through a filtering process, while more local regions about India can receive those with lesser means and do.
Another angle to consider is that well to do Indian immigrants in the US, while less likely to follow the traditional codified restrictions of caste, are quite likely to engage in their adoptive societies' own (often unspoken) rules around class.
Hence, in places like the US, Indians are more likely to have professional spouses, whether those spouses are Indian or not.
Practice of caste system is negligent among the educated, especially folks who come to US and in Indian metros (millions live) and most of the towns. It is still followed to some extent in 'redneck' villages in interior parts of India where one knows the other by name and caste. As far as entry into temples, all major hindu temples dont follow it or just dont care. Millions visit these temples each day. But, most of the incidents of late are more politically motivated than caste related. Current PM Modi himself is of lower caste. Also India and Hinduism is not uniform. Lower castes (designated as shudra in caste heirarchy) are called upper castes in south and hold political power. Its complicated.
Indian who was born and grew up there. Caste was never a thing outside of arranged marriages. The only time I hear about it is from news when there were protests from certain castes recently demanding reservation or from places like reddit and hn where someone would post about casteism in India.
I am a Hindu Nair (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nair). There is also a sub caste-I don't know which one it is. Both my parents are Nairs, but belonging to different sub castes I think.
As for offensiveness, I don't remember anybody asking me about my caste (outside of govt forms-they need it for job/educational reservations) except once. He (an Indian from my state) didn't ask me my caste, he heard my name and immediately said "oh you are a Nair" and I felt really weird and wanted to end the conversation quickly. If a foreigner asks me, I don't think I would mind. I am not sure if I would be comfortable if an Indian asks me though.
Interestingly, caste in India is a lot like race in America - becoming less of an issue with each passing generation. There are occasional flare-ups especially in the impoverished regions.
Nepotism also runs strong in India. Nearly 85% of the country’s businesses are family-run, and Bollywood is dominated by just a few families. Even job-seekers with impressive resumes have to fall back on personal connections to find work
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/world/asia/12iht-letter12....
It does not get emphasized enough, but the caste system in India is a very very complicated issue. Any effort create a simple mental model for it (say, by mapping it to racial apartheid) would not take one closer to real understanding.
As to the specific incident in the news, I would only say that it is not hard to find a couple hundred men for Rs. 500 who would go about trashing cars and buses for a few hours, while the police would have instructions not to act too strongly against them, for fear of further conflagration. Once this is done, it is all up to journalists, op-ed writers to offer up (and amplify) their favorite perspectives.
Here’s my simple mental model: People use bullshit reasons to be dicks to each other. Sometimes people are legit trashy, so fuck them, but other times trashy people are nice and it’s the elitists who are assholes. The bullshit reasons originate from religious mythology (read: made up fiction that conveniently excludes scumbags born into shit, fucking them for life, and leaving their children to inherit the same mistreatment), but the crux of the matter is who gets to fuck bitches and why. Arranged marriages and dowry compensation come bundled with what amounts to a regional, cultural and thus religious form of brand recognition. Slutty girls get sold to scummy dudes on the cheap, but sometimes a scummy dude has the money, and still can’t buy his way into the game. Compound this over generations and people get angry and stay angry when they die feeling jilted by the assholes they share daily life with. It gets worse when they watch it happen to their kids who are probably accidents anyway.
They didn't.
Moreover, the British stopped hiring them towards the end of the century in favour of the (as the British classified them) "martial castes".
Please don't extrapolate from just one battle with a few hundred soldiers to the vast history of British colonization.
Caste is a very complicated issue. It's not all black and white, oppressed against the oppressor. It's a major fault line in Hindu society today which has been used by politicians to divide the voters into fiefdoms. It is also one of the reasons why despite India having functional elections, has a under performing political class. Indian politicians flourish even when they grossly under deliver thanks to the caste divisions they nourish in the society.
> It's not all black and white, oppressed against the oppressor.
How's it not so? (Asking, not flaming. I know this is a complex topic and invariably leads to shouting matches.)
The idea of caste being used as a means and justification for oppression, violence etc is just plain wrong. I don't think it could be more black and white - to borrow another loaded figure of speech.
Because of reservation and representation. Think about this - In US instead of having affirmative action[1] it was legally mandated to hire about 30-50% of non-Caucasian for any government job ie quota. What ramifications will it have on the society?
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[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 110 ms ] threadWe never discussed caste. It was a non-issue.
Prime Minister Modi is also Low Caste. That didn't stop him from being elected.
Of course this is being opposed by "community leaders".
Interesting a woman from my home town was recently abused for being low caste. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38663143
It would be interesting to beak down H1B's by caste
It's more about your education level and how useful you are than who your ancestors were, but that is many times intertwined.
Edit: India, like most places, is in the middle of re-drawing it's caste system along socioeconomic lines. Of course, the lower castes will still be on the bottom and possibly discriminated against due to being behind on resources being passed down to them.
While Indians in the US tend toward the upper castes, it's not true that there aren't any people in the US of lower caste as well. Even in India the disparity between the castes is narrowing as affirmative action and modernization render such differences moot–as such, it isn't really true that people of lower cast have a "lack of resources", so there are people that are able to come over.
Most of the violent aspects of caste discrimination occur at lower socioeconomic levels, where the intensity of the tribalism is exacerbated by poverty.
However, many middle class Indians in the US still follow traditional caste rules in aspects of their personal lives, particularly in marriage, and sometimes in other social associations.
There is also some selection bias among many Indian immigrants towards egalitarianism, leaving behind stifling aspects of the old culture.
The horrible acts of discrimination described in the article are a product of both the Indian social structure and the local communal conflicts.
Hence, in places like the US, Indians are more likely to have professional spouses, whether those spouses are Indian or not.
Is it offensive to ask this about indians in the US?
As for offensiveness, I don't remember anybody asking me about my caste (outside of govt forms-they need it for job/educational reservations) except once. He (an Indian from my state) didn't ask me my caste, he heard my name and immediately said "oh you are a Nair" and I felt really weird and wanted to end the conversation quickly. If a foreigner asks me, I don't think I would mind. I am not sure if I would be comfortable if an Indian asks me though.
Nair is actually included in my name so you get the caste info just by getting my name.
If we disagree, let's agree to disagree without violence?
How can our increasingly global society grow robust to provocations?
For those interested, here is a good piece by Venkatesh Rao which touches upon this subject: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2016/11/10/king-ruinous-and-the-c...
As to the specific incident in the news, I would only say that it is not hard to find a couple hundred men for Rs. 500 who would go about trashing cars and buses for a few hours, while the police would have instructions not to act too strongly against them, for fear of further conflagration. Once this is done, it is all up to journalists, op-ed writers to offer up (and amplify) their favorite perspectives.
How's it not so? (Asking, not flaming. I know this is a complex topic and invariably leads to shouting matches.)
The idea of caste being used as a means and justification for oppression, violence etc is just plain wrong. I don't think it could be more black and white - to borrow another loaded figure of speech.
[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action