"We [Dopamine Labs] use AI and neuroscience to find the perfect moment of zen to give you. It's the same math that we use to get people addicted to apps, just run backwards."
Maybe, just maybe, they want to get you addicted to that Zen moment. And then they want to make sure that you can only get that Zen moment on their app. Third step? $$$?
Site: You don't really want to dump Facebook: you just need SPACE.
Me: Ha ha no actually I kinda do wanna dump it and have kept it as arm's length for its entire existence, and I'm currently dumping Twitter for a Mastodon instance I run.
Site: "Apps use advanced software tools that shape and control user behavior. We know because our company, Dopamine Labs, sells it to them."
I suddenly really do not trust this app to do what it says it will, given that there are two links in this page to their site for their make-your-app-more-addictive consultancy. Is this app them trying to do some kind of penance for their work in their day job, or is it actually a stealthy way to try and keep people stuck in these ad-impression-generating feedback loops?
Do you offer an option (presented equitably and not hidden under layers of UI) to quit using an app altogether? Otherwise you're just selling the illusion of control in order to keep real control away from the user, and you're helping to maintain a permanent parasitic relationship.
Today, we don't. We're a seed stage startup, and like every startup, we don't get to implement everything we want in V1. Our goal is to make sure that the end users interests and priorities are respected. Currently, we do that by prioritizing who we work with. Eventually, we plan to build user facing tools like the ones you describe.
Or maybe you’re hoping to demonstrate how accurately you can push both classes of buttons, and them license the tech? Or hope to be acquired?
Time will tell, although personally I doubt the efficacy of both apps before I doubt your intentions. The language used trips my pseudoscience alarm, although that is just a heuristic. Still, lofty promises in the absence of commensurate evidence, plus a potential profit motive... oh my.
Interesting -- What is it that you doubt? That interactivity can be addictive? or that the formula for making interactivity addictive can be distilled and packaged as AI SaaS?
I doubt both the veracity of your claims as regards the efficacy of your apps, and I doubt your stated goals/intentions. As I said, time will tell. I will say that you’re doing yourself no favors by selling this here. Call it cynicism, skepticism, or just experience... you need more than a too-slick pitch and a sketchy product stuffed into a “sciency” skin.
I agree with the top comment there; it's unsettling to see one company pushing the disease and the cure at the same time; their other product (Dopamine) is literally marketed with "Dopamine makes
your app addictive." - https://usedopamine.com/
That's a really great question! A few of our investors actually found us though Space (Esther Dyson and Howard Morgan among others) -- They got the "whole mission" stuff before we spoke. I'll assume your one of our other investors.
We're leading a mission and a movement -- That technology powered by AI and neural-modeling can "make change easy." That these technologies can make you whoever you want to be. We're telling people that behavior design should be respected, but not feared. There are parts of our mission that show up on the profit side of P&L, and there are those that don't. But the movement we're creating, the whole story we're realizing will succeed or not as a package. Without Space, and what it says about who we are and what we're doing, our hiring pipeline would change radically -- our PR strategy would have to change radically. By taking the time to communicate the larger vision through products like Space, the profitable products we make won't be seen as one in a sea of competitors, it will be accurately seen as the product of a team of larger mission to "make change easy."
Hope that helps, and I hope I didn't get to "cult leader" for you!
OK, i understand. I'm pretty surprised at how jumbled this message came across here on hn, can't tell if the blame lies heavier on hn cynicism or on a problematic pitch. Could be because your company is so provocatively named. I wish I could get to see if this move is treated as a success or failure a year down the line.
We've been on HN a few times. The public reaction (in posts) is always very cynical and there are some very hateful emails. But we just hired someone who found us though an HN post and believed in the mission. We always get a lot of good customer inbounds with each HN post.
When people like you ask the questions like you did, it gives us an opportunity to get this larger mission statement out where the people who need it can see it.
Thanks for the question!
I also don't know if this is going to work out (That's Startups!). We're are being honest and optimistic about technology that everyone else in the industry is ashamed, underhanded, and small-minded about. I'm betting a few years (and counting) that this is the right way to be in the world, and the right way to build a billion dollar company. Consider following us on twitter to see how to turns out!
This is like a bad parody. If you are seriously considering downloading another app to control your app addiction, maybe it's time to just get a dumb phone or no phone whatsoever.
No, but behavioral addictions are a real thing, and (by some measures) they are much more common than drug addiction. As Technologies get better at targeting our learning systems, the promise and parol of these technologies is only going to increase.
I use Space and I like it. It diminishes the kick of Facebook and Instagram. I check them less often as a result. I do like esp Instagram and I keep in touch with friends with Facebook so I do want to use these apps, and this dulling of the instantaneous gratification aspect via Space is positive. (I never was anywhere near an extreme user of FB/Instagram.)
The reality is that many people like and dislike social media at the same time, and the dopamine triggers is an issue for many people. Hence, Space. Thanks Space developers!
It guides you though designing a new app icon that will replace the app you'd like you use less (let's say facebook). When you click on the new 'facebook' icon, it will load facebook . . . but first, it will load a 3-12 second breathing exercise. That does two things -- 1) it breaks your flow state, so that you have a minute to ask if this is what you really want to be doing, and 2) weakens the stimulus-->response loop that made you open the app in the first place.
How do we know how long to make the pause? By monitoring your past engagement with that app and the other apps you're trying to use less, Space tries to guess if you're being "deliberate" or "compulsive." Deliberate opens get a shorter break, compulsive opens got a longer break.
I find it fascinating that people spend so much time on social media, however, I don't really think you can consider it an addiction. If social media can be labeled an addiction then can we not also say socializing is addicting and we should limit our social interactions with people so we don't become addicted to socializing?
One of the critical things about an addiction (maybe _the_ critical thing) is that you want to stop or cut-back, but you can't, and it's interfering with you life.
The site is trying way too hard. So is the guy posting in comments here on HN. It just screams insecurity.
If you really have a great solution, and maybe you do, you want other people saying the over the top things about you. You should not be the one doing that.
I like the name, but you need to ditch the addiction language, the Neuroscience references etc. Come way down to something along the lines of "Feeling jerked around by social media apps? Get some Space. Our app gives you a moment of Zen to take a deep breath and decide whether or not you really want to check FB again."
Don't mention Dopamine Labs up front and what it does. That information should be available, but not emphasized.
If you wrote the copy "yourself" (in house), hire someone to rewrite it. Also, get someone to coach you a bit about basic PR. Your HN comments are less than stellar.
"a new app icon that will replace the app you'd like you use less (e.g. facebook). When you click on the new icon, it will load facebook..."
I had previously thought that iOS prevented an App from launching another App. IFTTT and Tasker both seem to have limitations because of this. Did Space have to create a novel work-around ?
[edit]Come to think of it, the URL Scheme of the "app to launch" would have to be published as part of the Space App in advance. Meaning that I can't use Space to block arbitrary Apps. Is my understanding correct ?
BTW, I think it is great the founder is replying to questions. Thank you.
That's basically right, we use the same system that IFTTT and Tasker use. So we have to specify the URL schema ahead of time, and we are bound by the 50 app limit. Sometimes we have to spend a bit of time discovering an apps URL scheme.
On Android, we're a lot less limited and can service all apps. We also have a programatic way of discovering URL schemes on Android.
The name Dopamine labs reinforces a popular-science myth that dopamine is addictive. I want to use this opportunity to point out that this is not supported by research in psychology/neurobiology and demonstrates an incorrect understanding of the role dopamine plays in the brain: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201701/...
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[ 1.1 ms ] story [ 905 ms ] thread"We [Dopamine Labs] use AI and neuroscience to find the perfect moment of zen to give you. It's the same math that we use to get people addicted to apps, just run backwards."
Me: Ha ha no actually I kinda do wanna dump it and have kept it as arm's length for its entire existence, and I'm currently dumping Twitter for a Mastodon instance I run.
Site: "Apps use advanced software tools that shape and control user behavior. We know because our company, Dopamine Labs, sells it to them."
I suddenly really do not trust this app to do what it says it will, given that there are two links in this page to their site for their make-your-app-more-addictive consultancy. Is this app them trying to do some kind of penance for their work in their day job, or is it actually a stealthy way to try and keep people stuck in these ad-impression-generating feedback loops?
Sometimes, you wish you did something more (or more regularly). The Dopamine API helps you do that. (go to the gym, pick water over soda, ect)
Sometimes you wish that you did something less. Space helps with that.
They're both tools for making change easier -- for making it easier to be who you want to be.
How we screen customers. --> https://medium.com/dopaminelabs/how-we-score-leads-for-value...
Time will tell, although personally I doubt the efficacy of both apps before I doubt your intentions. The language used trips my pseudoscience alarm, although that is just a heuristic. Still, lofty promises in the absence of commensurate evidence, plus a potential profit motive... oh my.
Also, you can check out our case study deck here: http://usedopamine.com/assets/pdf/Dopamine%20Labs%20Case%20S...
Edit: DoreenMichele’s post should be your bible.
Seems like a weird way to "sell" the app to the end user.
I agree with the top comment there; it's unsettling to see one company pushing the disease and the cure at the same time; their other product (Dopamine) is literally marketed with "Dopamine makes your app addictive." - https://usedopamine.com/
I'm the coFounder and CEO of Dopamine Labs, the company behind Space. Happy to answer any questions!
We're leading a mission and a movement -- That technology powered by AI and neural-modeling can "make change easy." That these technologies can make you whoever you want to be. We're telling people that behavior design should be respected, but not feared. There are parts of our mission that show up on the profit side of P&L, and there are those that don't. But the movement we're creating, the whole story we're realizing will succeed or not as a package. Without Space, and what it says about who we are and what we're doing, our hiring pipeline would change radically -- our PR strategy would have to change radically. By taking the time to communicate the larger vision through products like Space, the profitable products we make won't be seen as one in a sea of competitors, it will be accurately seen as the product of a team of larger mission to "make change easy."
Hope that helps, and I hope I didn't get to "cult leader" for you!
When people like you ask the questions like you did, it gives us an opportunity to get this larger mission statement out where the people who need it can see it.
Thanks for the question!
I also don't know if this is going to work out (That's Startups!). We're are being honest and optimistic about technology that everyone else in the industry is ashamed, underhanded, and small-minded about. I'm betting a few years (and counting) that this is the right way to be in the world, and the right way to build a billion dollar company. Consider following us on twitter to see how to turns out!
The reality is that many people like and dislike social media at the same time, and the dopamine triggers is an issue for many people. Hence, Space. Thanks Space developers!
It guides you though designing a new app icon that will replace the app you'd like you use less (let's say facebook). When you click on the new 'facebook' icon, it will load facebook . . . but first, it will load a 3-12 second breathing exercise. That does two things -- 1) it breaks your flow state, so that you have a minute to ask if this is what you really want to be doing, and 2) weakens the stimulus-->response loop that made you open the app in the first place.
How do we know how long to make the pause? By monitoring your past engagement with that app and the other apps you're trying to use less, Space tries to guess if you're being "deliberate" or "compulsive." Deliberate opens get a shorter break, compulsive opens got a longer break.
Does that answer your question?
The site is trying way too hard. So is the guy posting in comments here on HN. It just screams insecurity.
If you really have a great solution, and maybe you do, you want other people saying the over the top things about you. You should not be the one doing that.
I like the name, but you need to ditch the addiction language, the Neuroscience references etc. Come way down to something along the lines of "Feeling jerked around by social media apps? Get some Space. Our app gives you a moment of Zen to take a deep breath and decide whether or not you really want to check FB again."
Don't mention Dopamine Labs up front and what it does. That information should be available, but not emphasized.
If you wrote the copy "yourself" (in house), hire someone to rewrite it. Also, get someone to coach you a bit about basic PR. Your HN comments are less than stellar.
I had previously thought that iOS prevented an App from launching another App. IFTTT and Tasker both seem to have limitations because of this. Did Space have to create a novel work-around ?
[edit]Come to think of it, the URL Scheme of the "app to launch" would have to be published as part of the Space App in advance. Meaning that I can't use Space to block arbitrary Apps. Is my understanding correct ?
BTW, I think it is great the founder is replying to questions. Thank you.
On Android, we're a lot less limited and can service all apps. We also have a programatic way of discovering URL schemes on Android.