How common is it for people to do actual, regular, serious work at coffee shops and the like? I've tried a couple of times and I always feel like such a pretentious wanker when I pull out a laptop and start working on stuff, like I'm somehow broadcasting "oh look at me, I work remotely, aren't I special?"
Many years ago, I went to meet a friend at a cafe and show him this game I'd just bought. Pulled the laptop out and it was incredible just how fast I felt like that.
Besides which, the noise levels would drive me nuts. I have difficulty working with any kind of unstructured noise.
No one thinks that, especially near universities where students are doing their homework anyways. I always used to hit cafes when they weren't busy, so super early morning, or late afternoons...if the place is full, you can't do thinking anyways, but if its empty, the cafe's appreciate the business.
I think it a little. Never really "got" the whole thing I guess. I also wonder why does a supposed "remote worker" (for money, I presume) want to eat (literally) into their profits by spending money constantly at a cafe? My home would have to be a heckhole indeed... Or I'd have to be stricken with a loneliness so gnawing that I had to get out. Otherwise I'm perfectly content to have total control over a pleasant private environment that I'm already paying for!
I work remote, I enjoy working from my pleasant private environment about 90% of the time. But I get bored of it and want a change of pace, and I enjoy espresso drinks that I can’t duplicate at home.
$25 a week spent on breakfast and coffee plus a new environment isn’t really going to ding my budget, maybe that is different for other people depending on their field.
for what it's worth, you can go to Starbucks, get a coffee for under $2, and with their current rewards program, unlimited refills all day long as long as you don't leave. if you bring your own lunch, it can be a really cheap place to work, as long as it fits your work style.
I also wonder why does a supposed "remote worker" (for money, I presume) want to eat (literally) into their profits by spending money constantly at a cafe?
I'm not a full-time remote worker, but as mentioned above, I do work out of cafe environments quite often. Why? Well, in my case, I'm single, I live alone, and if the only place I'm ever at - besides my day-job office -
is my apartment, I'd get really bored and go stir-crazy. For me, the cafe is a "3rd place". That is helped by the fact that I drink copious amounts of coffee.
Also, sometimes (as somebody else in one of these threads mentioned) there's something satisfying about being around other people, but not being required to interact with them. And there's something about the hustle-and-bustle / hum of activity in a cafe that is comforting. See, for example, how some people working in an office will put on a "coffee shop noises" audio track while working, to attempt to partially simulate that environment.
I wrote kind of a dumb amount of my dissertation at Mishka's Cafe and the Delta of Venus in Davis. Mishka's has a thin row of seating at the front with a 'no work' policy - including no reading except for newspapers - and then a huge area of grad students on laptops. Delta's much less structured, has a lot more ambient conversation, and has a real (and excellent) kitchen which I imagine rounds out their business nicely.
So, yeah, it's a pretty easy habit to get into as a student.
These days, I mainly get my solo research in on weekends, and spend a few hours in a local coffee shop. I tip generously, and occasionally buy a pound of coffee to keep things on the up and up.
I work in the Bay Area as a software engineer but live in Davis and work from there two days a week (wife is a PhD student). Delta of Venus is the only place I can get work done.
I feel the same way, and have never been able to work on a laptop in a coffee shop. I prefer to work in silence too, and never listen to music etc. while working, so this probably is a big factor for me.
What I do enjoy in coffee shops though, is writing ideas and planning/brainstorming projects (by hand) in my paper notebook.
I did this in tearooms. There usually were ~3 sections in a tearoom, one with tables and stools, one with cushions and one where you could smoke nargile/hookah.
Sitting at a table for two with a laptop was fine. There usually would be at least one more. It would more often than not broadcast "student" than "pretentious remote worker"
I find it very convenient when I have meetings far away from my workplace. A lunch meeting and a late afternoon meeting, great I can work from a coffee shop in between.
It's very common. If you don't have a workplace, and are an independent developer, many people work remotely from coffee places.
If you feel like that, you just have to overcome that feeling. I have no problem doing what is my passion from anywhere. Except if it's too noisy or there's too much people. But then you figure out something else.
People are different of cause, they have different types of jobs, and cafes are different as well. However; when I see someone with a laptop on a tiny little round cafe table, I assume that they just want to be seen, or if they're just setting up for an Instagram photo. Their 13" MacBook is often dwarfed by their huge coffee cup, how can anyone work in such crammed conditions? And the noise.... don't people need to think?
Strangely enough, knowing that so many people have doubts about coffeeshop nomads was very motivating when I did exactly that. I sometimes lacked the discipline to get work done from home, but when I sat down at a coffeeshop, I never opened social media because that would only prove you people right - so I worked all day.
I know a few people who do. One still lives with her parents (she freelances while going to school and tending bar at the family business). Her room is small, so it's mostly set up for relaxing. Thus, coffee shops for working.
> Reality is nobody cares about you in the (semi-)public. Unless you of cause go really crazy.
A few people have been saying that. But, how can you possibly know? It sounds like a platitude one tells themselves in order to not feel self-conscious, rather than an actual discernable fact.
I guess I read this as "as long as you're not disrupting other people/going against the cafe's policies then who gives a shit if other people care about you" more than "other people will never care about you"
>I've tried a couple of times and I always feel like such a pretentious wanker when I pull out a laptop and start working on stuff, like I'm somehow broadcasting "oh look at me, I work remotely, aren't I special?"
This though can be turned around easily: that the one feeling that way is self-centered and believes unknown people in a cafe care about what he "broadcasts" when he uses his laptop. What makes he believe he is special enough to warrant attention for having a laptop out? Who even cares about what they do? (short of ritual sacrifice).
I find that there’s a percentage of people in the world who are oblivious to cultural norms, and become indignant when it is explained that some habits are problematic.
You don't have to be self-centered or believe you're special to feel awkward when going against social norms. If remote working at cafes was something that happened regularly around where I live and half the tables had laptops on them then I wouldn't feel pretentious at all. But sitting alone at a table with a laptop in a room full of people socializing is a completely different situation and feels weird.
I'm very productive in cafes. If you work remotely you really don't want to be at home all day long. Working for a few hours in the morning in a cafe helps stave off cabin fever. Headphones and music are a must though.
Being someone who works remotely exclusively...I wouldn’t survive without going to a coffee shop to work 2-3 times a week. Just need to get out of the house and be around people sometimes (during the day.)
People go to coffee shops to talk, to read, to write, to think. It doesn’t seem like much of a reach to think people would go there to do work. The common theme seems to be wanting to focus.
Oftentimes my partner would come home from school, work, and want to relax. I'd want to go anywhere. "Where?" "I dunno, even the mall." "Is there something you want?" "Not that I can think of."
But it was to be "social". Be around people, even with minimal interaction. She wanted to relax, had been busy and around people all day.
I'd been at home with our cat and our dog.
You can be "social", or at least "not alone", without having to talk to people.
Masters thesis write up. Especially the Literature review, was made more bearable by shitty caramel machiatto's in Starbucks.
If you don't need your workstation for heavy lifting.
If you're mainly reading research papers or writing little scripts, to apply the documentation to your use case or something, then coffee shops can be great.
If you're feeling self-conscious, it's in your head though, isn't it? I feel like it's not that hard to just sit there and do your work, minding your own business.
Sure, it personally makes me feel anti-social, but when I do hang out with people at coffe shops and see someone else work, I do know how they feel and won't judge.
And yea, I've done some pretty good "work" at coffee shops, where I didn't have the distraction of super high bandwidth and playing games at home. And as others have pointed out, being around people is fun, even when you're not interacting with them, though that doesn't relate to your point.
If I have a day when Need to Get Shit Done, I go to a cafe. That way I can't be physically bothered and I can just turn off all communication software and devices if I need to.
You probably think the other patrons are more interested on what you are doing there than they actually care. I can understand feeling this with a cafe that has explicit rules about laptop use, otherwise what anyone dose in a cafe is their own business unless they are interrupting the experience of others.
I can get 2/3 hours sometimes of serious hacking work on a noisy, busy coffeeshop. The combination is 3-4 days of isolated work and then boredom and then boom. Working alongside of very annoying people can work.
How common is it for people to do actual, regular, serious work at coffee shops and the like?
I don't know the answer in general, so I can only offer the anecdote that "I do it." I work a day-job and am working on a side-project, and I visit a coffee shop / cafe environment usually 2 or 3 nights a week after the day-job to work on my project for a few hours. And I typically do the same for up to 8 hours on Saturday and maybe 4-6 hours on Sunday.
I've tried a couple of times and I always feel like such a pretentious wanker when I pull out a laptop and start working on stuff, like I'm somehow broadcasting "oh look at me, I work remotely, aren't I special?"
Interesting. Such a thought has never occurred to me. But I live in a college heavy area and visit a cafe that's near UNC, Duke and NC Central, and there are always plenty of people with laptops out. A lot are clearly students, but I'm pretty sure there's a decent number who are working professionals as well.
On the OTOH, despite the prevalence of laptops there, there are always plenty of tables with people who aren't on laptops and who are socializing in-person.
At the wifi cafe near me, everyone gives off that vibe and seems pretty proud of it. I've discovered it's a great place to take my kids to do their homework. They get a hot chocolate and someplace quiet to focus on their work and not be distracted by games and toys. I could never get much work done at one of those place, but then again I don't get much done at my office either.
The library served the same function for my father when I was growing up. He could take us there, we'd do our homework, and there was a solid social code enforcing silence and focus. At the end, we got to pick out some new books to read.
I do it for high focus tasks. I like the noise level of cafe's and that interruptions are very rare. I can be extremely productive, and sometimes I'll do work at a cafe even if it isn't for my actual job. For instance I'll work on some fiction writing, or a coding project.
At least around here most people seem to be on laptops. Whether they're playing a game or doing actual work I don't know since I try to not peep at other screens, but nobody has given me any stare-downs or anything rude.
My complaint would be people yapping on their cell phone for work. That's a big distraction, you blend in with a laptop, but nothing says "I'm important" yelling into your bluetooth for an hour.
I find it really strange too, for a similar reason. But at least one developer I have a lot of respect for constantly bemoans the lack of a really good development laptop because they like to work at coffee shops. One of the most productive developers I know of, so it's hard to say it can't work.
Do you live in a small town? I've found that when I go home to visit my parents at their small town, it does feel slightly uncomfortable to be the only one on a laptop in any cafe.
This is the appropriate emotional response. Kudos to you. Thanks for not being a tool. I would say, though, that the reason it's a "pretentious wanker" move isn't because they work remotely but instead choose to work silently in a public space not designed for it, essentially for free. Paying for coffee, pastry, whatever and using the place as an office is not providing the appropriate monetary remuneration to the business for having an office space.
Dunno, that's just a self-limiting belief that's doing you no good. Like not approaching women because you think it broadcasts "oh look at me, thinking I'm good enough to approach you, how pretentious!" And then just stewing alone for the rest of your life because, hey, at least you avoided the thoughts you thought other people might have!
So is this about sales or about the vibe of having a coffee place where people hang out and chat? I'd be happy to pay some money to work for longer than one drink at a cafe, but I don't really want to drink 5 coffees to work for a day.
See Workshop Cafe[0], $2/hr for fast wifi, order-by-text table service, suitable spaces for groups, and even some external monitors lying around (as of 2016...)
Oh wow, that's awesome! If they had a location near Caltrain, anywhere from Redwood City down to San Jose, I'd start going there once every week or so.
Local coworking haunt (UK) is about £20 per day or more. That equates to about 10 coffees. Or 6 coffees, 1 soup and 1 cake. Which starts to make the cafe more appealing.
Sure, for one day this makes no sense. The problem is the pricing there, maybe there are better more sensible priced coworking spaces?
I know coworking spaces (Betahause in Berlin comes into my mind) which combine a "cyber"-cafe with an optional regular coworking space which gives you flexibility for showing up only 1 day and buy a coffee for working some hours.
I don't think £20 a day is so bad really but my experience of co-working spaces is they are often just cafes without the coffee, so not worth paying for.
When I lived in Spain I managed to find an office for 150 euro a month (all inclusive), which was ideal. Now back in the UK I'd likely pay that a week for anything comparable.
Outside of London there is a dire shortage of accessible and affordable work spaces.
Agree. We ran a cafe (in the UK South-East) (or rather me being the kitchen hand...), started out enthusiastically with the aim to please and make and serve nice food and drink, then the realisation kicked in that selling beer and quicker table turnaround was more profitable. We still sank. (Small premises mind.)
This feels rather personal. I'm not saying I would or would not. I'm just doing a simple comparison. For many, they probably think they are doing the cafe a favour, and getting a change of scenery and a slice of cake.
See if there's a makerspace around. The one I go to has free coffee, and as a bonus, I have access to an entire workshop worth of tools, good for almost any project I could imagine.
In France we have this small chain of "Anticafes". They're basically coffee shops but instead of paying what you drink, you pay for the time you spend there (5€/hr. or 20€/day) and you can order beverages at will. It's not a coworking space, even though there are plenty of people working, others are chatting or just enjoying their drinks.
> At Triniti, Mr. Wynn offers free Wi-Fi, but after two hours a customer must have “a face-to-face interaction” with an employee, he says, to get a new password
This is the best approach. (The "a staff member will approach the uninitiated customer whose laptop is open for more than a couple of minutes with a gentle but firm request ‘to finish up what you’re doing and close the laptop, please,’ approach is the worst. No sign, no explanation--just a demand.)
> the Rose doesn’t provide electrical outlets; a dwindling battery should be a sign that it’s time to go
This is also fine, albeit ineffective against my MacBook Air.
I'm guessing most people using cafes as workplaces are going to baulk at paying for 4G? It can get really expensive if you're working more than a couple of hours a day.
I haven't paid-by-the-byte for 4G for about half a decade now. It's unlimited with my reasonably priced monthly contract (about $30USD/mo), from a mainstream provider in the UK (Three), lets me tether and gives me free data when I'm abroad too (I'm in the US and France a few times a year typically). I hope this doesn't sound too let-them-eat-cake, but I'm surprised that anyone with work-on-app-in-a-café-in-a-trendy-city lifestyle wouldn't have a sim plan with unlimited, or at least a very high allowance of, data.
Yes, I get what you're saying, maybe I just know a lot of tight-fisted people?
I have one colleague who won't answer an email or whatsapp unless she's on free wi-fi somewhere. This is an extreme example but I know others who are not much worse.
I'm on that all-you-can-eat tariff with Three as well, but tethered data is normally limited to 30GB/month or so. Did you make any account changes to get unlimited or are you bypassing the tethering detection? I haven't seen unlimited tether plans, but it would mean I could work virtually anywhere.
The TTL (time-to-live) field of outgoing packets is one of the ways to detect when someone has another device behind the connected device (phone). The traffic from this device has an extra hop to go through, so TTL of every TCP packet will be decreased by one, compared to packets originating from the phone, when it reaches the ISP.
This, together with the fact that default TTL different OSes set for packets they send is well known, and virtually no user ever changes these defaults, means that if the ISP detects different packets with TTL for example 64 and 63 coming from you, you very likely have something tethered to your phone.
There are tools like https://github.com/p0f/p0f (it does much more, than just this, though) to make exploiting this technique easy. I remember we used p0f to detect unauthorized connection sharing in a certain university dorm network, and caught quite a few people.
You are not trying hard enough. I was at Trinity College Library, Dublin a few months back. There are few spaces that are more peaceful and inspiring to work in than that one.
You have to understand that cafés like churches or pubs or the town square have traditionally been designed as the "The Third Space" in people's lives behind home and work. It were community building happen. It's designed for that, not for work. Howard Schultz founder of Starbucks tried to bring this to the US where he felt people were loosing touch with those community spaces but still had/felt a need for them. It has been very successful for his company to tap into that need. But on the flip side lot of misguided notions have developed in peoples(cafe owners/patrons) heads about what that third space is for or why they need it.
I can't speak for all universities, but my alma mater allows public access on a limited basis. For example, you can apply for courtesy membership if you have a basic need for research purposes. It can be as simple as, "I'm trying to build a static analysis tool, and I need books or publications on ASTs."
It makes sense to me, because one of the tenets of higher education should be to serve in the interest of the community.
I see. In Australia, they tie guest wifi login to one's student email address via the 'eduroam' SSID. This allows students from visiting universities to connect but not the general public.
I'm not aware of any such plans in the US. All carriers throttle "unlimited" plans so unlimited plans simply don't exist. Not with the major carriers anyway.
ATT unlimited plus says you might be throttled after 10GB of tethering, but in my experience, I haven't been restricted. I think it only throttles you if the tower you're connected to is saturated.
That's not really fair though - Three hasn't offered unlimited for years now, I also have friends who bought Unlimited few years ago and they will continue to have it until they switch plans, but that level of unlimited, where you can tether and where you can literally download 500gb+ a month and no one will care doesn't exist in the UK today. No mobile ISP offers such a thing as it stands right now.
>"a staff member will approach the uninitiated customer whose laptop is open for more than a couple of minutes with a gentle but firm request “to finish up what you’re doing and close the laptop, please,”
Agreed - I understand that cafe owners dislike people lounging around for free, but I'd be seriously pissed if someone came to hurry me along after a couple of _minutes_.
Or just set a purchase minimum. Must buy $x worth of stuff for every few hours you spend there. Seems fair.
Cafes aren't your free all-day office offering complimentary wifi for the price of a $2 coffee, they're businesses trying to make money to pay their rent.
In the 'old days', you had to either subscribe to the service (usually AT&T or something ran the wifi) or you got a printed code on your receipt that was valid for an hour or two.
Then a some point, most chains started offering free wifi. Which was useless because many of the places only have 2-6mbs which is useless with anyone else using it.
Starbucks at least went with 'Google wifi' and have ~ 100mbs service which is really nice. But they are empty for some reason, the local Barnes and Noble is packed with laptops and unusable wifi.
Your $3 coffee doesn't entitle you to sit there for an hour though.
If I was running a cafe, I'd expect that you'd be leaving within 5 to 10 minutes of finishing your coffee. The very few times I've worked in a coffee shop, I've done that myself. It's not a coworking space.
Says who? I would understand it if the cafe place would enforce rules like this. But they would also lose many current customers. Many people just come to a cafe and stare at their phone. Or read a book.
How I see it this is a problem for the providers of the cafe service to solve, not the customers.
I've walked past cafes that have no seats available because they are full of people with laptops, they have lost my business because they don't enforce any rules.
I think you're just assuming a lot - about how many coffees they'll buy and how profitable these people are.
But we don't even have to guess. Big businesses that are very careful about monitoring things like this, such as Starbucks, actively encourage laptops (with tons of power, wifi, rows of single-person desk tables) so maybe your intuition about what is profitable is just wrong? I mean you've thought about it for ten minutes and were already coming into the situation annoyed because you want to sit down and someone else was there, and Starbucks are running this business full time with I would guess people dedicated to thinking about this kind of thing.
I'm more inclined to believe their reasoning on it.
The way I interpreted the parent post: that was intended to note the contrast to businesses who probably have several people who's full-time job is to think about these things.
Can I ask where you're from? The purpose that you seem to imagine coffee shops serve us totally foreign to me. Neither I nor anyone I know would ever dream of staying in a coffee shop for only the duration of a coffee. Either you're passing through and you grab a drink to go, or you've come to hang out for a while (either with friends or to pass the time in a "3rd space" working/reading/studying). All my coffee shop visits are either less than 1 minute or over 60. It would be truly bizarre to leave my apartment and spend 10+ minutes getting somewhere, only to stay for 5.
The $3 coffee most certainly does entitle you to sit there for an hour. That's the whole point of getting a coffee in a coffee shop. And if you told me to leave after 5 to 10 minutes, I'd tell you to call the cops and make me. With that kind of attitude, however, your coffee shop won't be in business long, so it shouldn't really be a problem that you treat people with so much disrespect.
If they had signs stating their policy clearly upfront I would accept it, but if not, in the cultures that I know the purpose of a coffee shop is exactly to sit there for quite a while. I'm in Germany and I used to live in the US for a decade. If I go to a real Italian coffee shop (i.e. the owner is an Italian), of which there are quite a few, I see people sitting and chatting for long times, an hour is not unreasonable at all. They don't order much after the initial purchase either.
Also, the entire history of coffee shops is that they are places of meeting people, not vending places. So if a particular coffee shop wants to have a "10 minutes only" policy I'm certainly fine with it, everybody can lead their business as they wish, but to what I know this is against all expectations, so it should be stated right away.
For laptop policy it depends more on the local context and I would not always expect to see a sign if they don't want it, but just the acceptance of larger amounts of time spent sitting there alone is a more global thing I would think taht cannot be easily deduced just from looking at a place.
Laughably childish responses - "call the cops and make me" - indicate that the OP is childish. With childish people, reasoned discussion is less likely to carry the message that such behaviour is ridiculous than the public humiliation of having such childish behaviour highlighted. There will then be a small tantrum, probably involving turning it around and blaming me in some way (I expect I simply don't understand - that's the usual childish response, typically from teenagers) which shall be ignored.
Act like a child; get treated like a child. Nothing at all to do with the subject matter.
Presumably you don't understand that the $3 is as much for a spot to sit as for the coffee, but considering your comment, it isn't surprising that you don't understand how coffee shops work.
> Your $3 coffee doesn't entitle you to sit there for an hour though
Read up on the history of cafes. This is what they historically were—places for people to be, not grab and go. If a coffee shop owner wants grab and go customers, they’re a glorified vending machine. (The article notes a conversation-versus-quiet dynamic that I can better empathise with.)
In Europe they still are places to sit down. But people that chat with one another still tend to order much more, because they're more aware of their surroundings, in touch with the smells of the freshly baked croissants. The laptop pulls you into a void where you might even forget to drink.
I actually cannot relate to this at all - I'm assuming that in your city, $3 is a cheap for a coffee?
For reference, typical Switzerland prices are:
instant, homemade: $0.20
Keurig/Nespresso, homemade: $0.50
supermarket: $2
bakery/coffee-to-go-place in a train station: $4
nice café: $6
Starbucks: $8
So what exactly would I be paying the extra $2 ($6-$4) for when ordering at your café? Assuming here that it all tastes the same to me - after all, if I really cared, I just made it myself.
Meanwhile, Starbucks encourages people to sit around for as long as they'd like to and is pretty much taking over the world. What does this corporate giant know that every stingy corner coffee shop owner is ignorant of?
A good share of Starbucks locations worldwide actually run at a loss. The mega-busy ones elsewhere make enough profit to cover the loss making stores. It's simple economics of scale.
Obviously independent coffee shops can't do that, so if you want to sit in a coffee shop all day working on your laptop, try to pick a large chain, instead of an independent.
> A good share of Starbucks locations worldwide actually run at a loss. The mega-busy ones elsewhere make enough profit to cover the loss making stores. It's simple economics of scale.
I'm probably missing something obvious, but how does this work? What is the purpose of keeping the loss-making stores running?
To create brand loyalty. If you regularly get coffee in a loss-making Starbucks, you are more likely to always get coffee from Starbucks where-ever you are.
I haven't read this about Starbucks in particular, but that is a pretty common trade-off for large retail businesses to make. They accept the fact that a certain percentage of stores will operate at a loss, but keep them in existence for other reasons (branding, in most cases) if the losses can be managed.
A friend of mine is a middle manager at a retail kitchen goods chain you've probably heard of. I've heard from him that many of their stores are always struggling to break even, and that most of the business is supported by a small number of stores that do an outsized amount of business.
I don't believe this. It sounds like something you came up with yourself. Do you have anything to back that up? I'm not saying it couldn't be true but I have hard time swallowing that based on supposition alone.
While I tend to get mad at the cafe dwellers that spend 4 hours on a table sipping on the same latte, I disagree with you here. It's all about finding the middle ground. I have had to work in coffee shops before and if you hold yourself to a code of conduct (e.g. consume something regularly, don't take up too much space, pack up and move somewhere else when it gets busy and you see people looking for tables) you are literally costing nothing to the coffee shop, while making it appear more full.
The problem isn't laptops, it's people being assholes.
That's kind of an odd assumption. I suppose for a coffee stand that only has a chair or two that might be true, but most cafes around me have a dozen or more seats and I've never sat down just to drink a coffee or have a snack.
It seems if you don't want people to hang out, then don't have seating?
No power plugs (I think most effective) & time limited Wifi. A cafe is not a coworking space although when beeing in USA or more specifically in SF I have the feeling people think it's the same.
A place near me limits WiFi to 45 minutes at peak times, which I think is best. AC outlets on the other hand are for more than laptops. If I'm going somewhere for a coffee, it's good to be able to charge my phone too.
Interesting. Do baristas check your identity or anything when giving your phone back? I'd worry about them turning their back and someone reaching over and grabbing it. There's a lot of crime in my area though - especially the "taking the phone out of your hand" kind.
It depends on how many spaces the cafe has and how expensive rent is.
If the cafe has plenty of free space, then people working on laptops is extra customers and beneficial. If it has little space, then a person ordering a coffee every two hours is taking away space from more profitable customers who eat, drink and leave in 30 minutes.
Plenty of cafes in SF and the Bay Area actively encourage laptop use. (Rows of outlets, large tables, not a peep from the staff.) In practice, most people seem to leave within an hour, so it's kind of a moot point.
The hipster café across the street from me does this to discourage people from sitting all day. They have no outlets. Still, there's people there working all day long.
To me, when the battery gets low it means time to go. So I don't mind.
This is, of course your opinion. To me, a cafe is an ideal co-working space. It encourages deep thought, the chance to collide with other smart people in my industry, get out of the house, etc.
There's a restaurant near me with a 5 cent cellphone charge that just doesn't get enforced. The simple fact that it is noted and low keeps people aware that it is a faux pas but not too grouchy about it (especially over a $150 dinner). Feels like a reasonable compromise in that environment.
People working on their laptops are actually not a paying customer. Yes, they might come in and buy a single coffee but then they sit in a corner for 3 hours and occupy a seat that could go to other customers that are actually buying things that make a cafe money.
It also has something to do with atmosphere. A cafe should have light chatter and people socializing. If the majority is sitting around in silence, it takes away from the special feeling a cafe normally has. I could get coffee at home for a fraction of the price.
> it takes away from the special feeling a cafe normally has
If people start using Cafes differently, why hold them to a forgotten standard? Cafes should see a business opportunity in that they can align themselves further with the needs of the consumer. Either that, or the consumer walks.
It could also happen the other way around: places that don't discourage people from "abusing" their hospitality might not survive in such a competitive line of business.
Open, unrestricted wifi comes to mind as an example.
There has to be business opportunity. If you those people are leeching free wifi and sitting spot then any attempt at charging them for it will make them go away. Customer that does not want to pay is not customer, so you cannot align anything.
Lloyd’s of London began as a 17th century coffee house where people who sold marine insurance hung out. They’ve been used for business (and studying) as well as leisure since their inception.
Well, in Amsterdam I was told to move by the window (were there was no space, all camped out by students) because me working on a laptop was not deemed “gezellig”. Fine, except that it was summer and everyone not wanting to work was basking in the sun on the terrace, inside was desolately empty.
That’s to say: I agree it’s not cool to squat a table 3hrs for 5$, but sometimes these situations happen because it’s the house that’s run by a hipster wanker...
In Amsterdam (and I assume every modern city) there are places you can actually rent a "desk" for a period of time. It is like a cafe with coffee & food, but with better seating and silent. Why not go there?
A cafe thats hostile towards their customers is a great way to get a bad review and a lost customer. If you don't want people working there don't provide tables or chairs.
Some people like to sit down, or rest their food on a flat surface. If you don't want people working there, take away the power, the WiFi, and play some music. Maybe even make the tables smaller, but don't take them away altogether!
Wel it seems that café don't want "customers" that use their café as a workplace. You're a customer if you come in, grab a drink (with or without laptop) and leave shortly after you finish your drink.
I think the problem isn't so much that people are using laptops in cafes, but that some people will linger for hours (usually on a laptop, but sometimes not) taking up a seat that could be used by someone else. Maybe a loosely-enforced 1-hour maximum loitering time might help to get more people cycling through?
Cafes are places where people go to hang out with their friends, sometimes talking for hours, even though they only bought one or two cups of coffee.
A couple of years ago, I reconnected with a childhood friend, after about 10 years of living far apart and only having very sporadic contact. We spent 6 hours talking about everything and nothing, after we finished our burgers.
I would have been extremely annoyed if the staff had decided to shoo us out of there after an hour.
Who's annoyance takes priority, you hogging a table for 6 hours annoying the owner, or you being annoyed when the owner kicked you out (or asked you to buy something) after a couple of hours?
But, the customer is always right. If it's not clearly signed that seating is time-limited, I will assume it is not.
I have been at (rather popular, busy) restaurants where a waiter will politely inform you that they have another reservation on our table 30 minutes later, giving us time to finish up without feeling rushed. Perhaps it's just a polite way to get rid of lingering customers, but we certainly didn't feel as if we were thrown out.
In a lot of cases, they'll even inform you beforehand that a reservation is for such and such time, usually 2 or 3 hours. That's perfectly fine and upfront, I certainly don't mind that.
I don't go out to just eat and get the hell out. Conversation is absolutely a part of going out to eat, and people don't appreciate feeling rushed.
In the Bay Area:
A big-wig at Starbucks walked into one of the stores and witnessed a teen with a video game station set-up. Few weeks later, all the outlets were removed in order to discourage people from staying and working. Even with the change, the place is still constantly packed with people studying/working
OK, to the person who tore wallpaper in order to get to a power outlet, I really hope I never meet you, as I have absolutely no respect for you now. Do not destroy/deface someone else's property like that.
And for the café, I know it's not a perfect solution, but beyond solutions like obtrusive locking outlet covers, or turning off outlets at the breaker, you could also look at swapping the outlet out with an L5-15R. That's the same voltage & amperage as a regular 5-15 receptacle, but uses a circular plug that pushes in and turns. You'll see them (or a similar amperage) on certain Metrolink (in LA) and Caltrain Bombardier cars.
You could either get an adapter (NEMA L5-15P to 5-15R), or change out the plugs on the stuff you'd plug in (like vacuum cleaners). And no, it won't stop someone who is absolutely determined, and who is willing to go out and buy an adapter. But it makes it all the more obvious that this receptacle is not for people to use.
I wonder how often places will change up their music as a way to shift things.
The example I'm thinking of is Philz in Sunnyvale. Starting some time around the new year, every time I've been there they've been playing much harder & louder music.
When I'm at a place, I prefer to be there without headphones, to show that I'm not completely disconnecting from the outside world. But with some of the music that's been playing, it's really hard to do, and so I've been avoiding it for the past month or so.
There's also a noticeable trend of tea shops and cafes buying more and more uncomfortable chairs to try and dissuade people from hanging around too long.
> Every time I've been there they've been playing much harder & louder music.
This is the trend across cafes in my city in Romania. It is not clear to me what the motivation is: the staff just say that they have been instructed to keep the music playing at all times and at a constant volume. Is it to discourage people from staying long? Or do the owners believe that you need to have loud dance music playing at all times in order to attract people? It’s just sad that we are losing the Central European tradition of cafes as quiet, intellectual places where one could stay for a long time with a book or pen and paper.
I’m somewhat surprised by the article. There is recently a giant indi cafe boom in Taipei that made it one of the most developed cafe city in Asia, but almost all well-regarded shops do everything they could to keep the place as quiet as possible. Maybe it’s the introvert eastern Asian culture in play here, I don’t know. The article assumes it is abnormal for cafes to be taken over by silence, but I mean, it’s totally cool to build your cafe a social place, but it’s not an inherently bad thing if your customers want it to be quiet either. Maybe your customers actually want that—and if that’s the case (maybe it’s not, I don’t know, but if it is), it sucks to have another quiet place taken away.
I don't think it's the silence the owners really care about, it's more that people aren't paying and they hog the seats all day for the price of a $2 coffee.
Charge them, or install some kind of time limiting then. Cafes here either charge at least $5 for a coffee (note that wage in Taiwan is about half than the US), or would ask you to leave if you stay for 2 hours (they will tell you first, of course). If this is what the owner really cares about, I feel the article is solving the wrong problem.
> If this is what the owner really cares about, I feel the article is solving the wrong problem.
True, but then again the hallmark of NYTimes aspirational twee writing is to harp on some wannabe hipster psuedo-retro twee bs - "Cafes are too silent!! People aren't interacting in social old fashioned ways! Nobody makes 3-week brine horseradish pickles anymore except for this one Fort Point Hassid who only works on the 8th Tuesday of the Month!!!" while simultaneously ignoring the common sense factors (Cafe owners are losing $$ because people use their cafes as free office space, and horseradish pickles be gross).
This article feels is one of the very few cases where i read something online and totally feels weird to me due to where i am from. In Greece coffee shops are really mainly places to hang out and staying for hours on a single coffee is pretty much normal and expected. There is a huge "coffee culture" here. Me and my friends would go for a coffee at 6pm (or later 7pm, due to jobs) and often leave at 11pm or sometimes 2am (note that many coffee shops, especially at the most popular areas in the bigger cities remain open from morning to very late at night and after some point they also start offering drinks). This was also one bit that i missed when i lived in other countries (i had a sort of culture shock one time when, visiting a mall a bit after work, i saw other people from work leaving from a beer outing at around 9pm or so :-P).
Laptop users aren't seen very often in general though (and TBH with how noisy the shops are i doubt they'll ever be), although i live near a university and there is a coffee shop nearby with nice flat tables looking at the street and i often see students with laptops there. Also years ago, at my first gamedev job (although before i joined) on a startup, the team didn't had offices for a few months and the programming team mostly worked from laptops at the roof of a coffee shop :-P (and AFAIK generally all meetings with the entire team and everything were held in various coffee shops around the city).
Of course all that means that there are tons of coffee shops everywhere and i remember when i lived abroad, my landlord - who visited Greece - telling me how strange he found that there were so many coffee shops.
Personally i considered visiting a nearby coffee shop with my laptop a few times (there are 5 shops just 100m range, two right outside of my place), but i always change my mind because of the noise... and because i don't like working from a laptop :-P.
It is. But the issue is remote workers that go and take up a 4 person table with their laptop and a bunch of papers then sit there all day...meaning a group of 2-4 no longer has a place to hang out.
I both work out of and hangout in coffee shops in the US, when working remote I make sure to always use the long community table if there are already a few seats used, or sit at the bar, or a two person table if I must. And if it is super busy and people are looking for seats I’ll go elsewhere.
> But the issue is remote workers that go and take up a 4 person table with their laptop and a bunch of papers then sit there all day...meaning a group of 2-4 no longer has a place to hang out.
Nah, the issue is, multiple groups of 2-4 people no longer have a place to hang out, meaning the shop earns less money.
I'm Greek too and I had the same thoughts. Specifically that it's perfectly possible to have a profitable business while expecting your customers to take over four or five seats for several hours for the price of a single coffee per head- because all the cafés I went to when I was in Greece did exactly that and they stayed in business for ever (most are still open like 12 years after I emigrated).
The difference is probably in the fact that Greeks go to the cafés with their friends. You almost never see a single person sitting at a table with a coffee cup for hours on end- except in the traditional cafés (kafeneio, vs cafeteria) that have basically single-person tables.
It works for the café because if you have a parea of five that stay around for five hours, that's like having five single customers each hogging a table for an hour- except you can accommodate several groups at once so you sell many more coffees per table than you would if your clientelle were single remote workers and their laptops.
Maybe, if it became much more common for remote workers working from cafés in Greece, then the economics would change- and our (café) culture would be in danger :)
I'm portuguese, so don't take this as a jab, but cafes are also notorious for tax evading, specially on the single coffee or 2 beers kind of bills.
I have two very good friends that own cafes here (which seem to work similar to what you are describing) and he hates when someone uses a table for hours on end and ends up paying one euro or something, even groups. He always told me that his best customers are the ones that come in, have their coffee, pay the euro, don't care about receipt and leave after 10 minutes. Those are the ones that keep him in business (and yes, tax on a 1 euro coffee isn't much, but multiply by easily 500 a day, and it starts to add up)
I'm guessing that rents are low for the coffee shops.
I also decry the loss of public spaces such as libraries (in my northern European city the main public library was rebuilt at fabulous cost and has less seating than the old one).
Is that a problem though? From my experience, at the library I frequent, while being well visited at all times has at most 20% of their seating occupied.
Don't live in northern europe though, so YMMV (maybe it's too cold outside to justify going to the library only for a short visit :D)
EDIT: The library I'm talking about is also a great social development. It's been built (about 10 years ago now) in the most densely-populated part of town, which was and still is considered by too many people as 'problematic' and it really lifts up the whole area.
I'm from Canada and the local library near me was also recently renovated with less seating than the old one. The actual building is probably twice the size, it used to consist of tightly packed 10ft bookshelves and cubicle desks and little nooks and crannies where people can sit. Now it is a more "open concept" layout with two story ceilings, short bookshelves that you can see over, big lounge chairs. I would glady go to the library when I want to work on my laptop but there is usually nowhere to sit, now I prefer to go to a coffee shop.
I think that culture is widespread in Southern Europe, at least Spain and Portugal also have plenty of coffeeshops where people get together in groups.
I'm never bothered about "hogging a table"; if a certain coffeeshop happens to be full, there are at least three others within 5m of walking distance that will have many free tables.
> In Greece coffee shops are really mainly places to hang out and staying for hours on a single coffee
From my experience on Samos, this might be attributed to the current economic situation. At bars it's not uncommon to see a person drink a pint over 1-2 hours. Most of the people that I observed did more smoking then drinking at bars and coffee shops because cigarettes (especially hand rolled ones) are a lot cheaper then drinks.
When I work from cafés I try to spend at least a few € every two hours, and avoid places that are overly busy (I don't like noise, but also if there's spare seats then I'm not costing anyone customers by sitting in one all day). Feels like common sense really - don't be an asshole.
I like the way it works in France: There, many coffee shops have set-up co-working rooms, which are separate rooms where you can rent a place by the hour.
Yes, it is a bit more expensive (usually ~20$ for a day), but you get the same "coffee shop experience" and don't have to feel guilty or obliged to eat/drink (often not so healthy) stuff all the time.
I don't usually stay at a place more than 3 or 4 hours anyways, so it's just a midway refill point for me. I usually work the rest of the day at home, or switch to a new place if I want to stay out.
Also, the amount to spend can scale with your budget; it seems more important to just to get up and buy something, just so you don't appear completely cut off from the rest of the world.
I normally get espresso drinks, but sometimes I'll get a normal drip coffee, which usually has a cheaper refill ($3 for the first, and $1 for a refill), and I'll tip on each refill.
I like your tips. I also take the approach of just awkwardly asking when I'm buying my first coffee for the day: "Hey is it alright if I work here and mooch your internet?" - I've found that the staff seems to appreciate acknowledgement that I'm mooching. I've only seen one or two coffeeshops that have paid wifi access, which I appreciate even more!
Once you've worked from a few coffeeshops you can recognize the places that welcome remote workers - they go out of their way to provide lots of outlets and lots of 1/2 person tables. If a place has bright lighting, loud music, very few outlets - it's polite to find somewhere else.
If I recall correctly, many Wi-Fi hotspot systems can employ a MAC address block list. So that after X time, the laptop gets disconnected, and cannot reconnect for Y time afterwards. Obviously this can be circumvented by savvy users, but for non-technical remote workers, it's a good way to 'nudge' them on their way.
I wonder why more places just don't employ this as a tactic?
> I wonder why more places just don't employ this as a tactic?
Because they want to run a cafe, not a networking hub. Your typical owner isn’t going to be aware of turnkey solutions for this and would rather not spend money on a manager wifi provider to solve this.
There's a place I often visit in Shoreditch called Ziferblat[0], and I think that they have something of a solution to this (they have other places too).
Essentially, you are charged for your time and everything else is free. Presently I think it's about 7p per minute for the first hour, and then 4p a minute afterwards - there's also a cap.
While in there, coffee, snacks, etc, are all "free".
Perhaps this sort of model could work? Obviously if you're not willing to kick out all the remote workers. I guess this turns it into more of a coworking space though.
This doesn't seem like it's a solution to the problem, it's just a different type of venue with the opposite problem. If I go in and grab a coffee and a crumpet they're not going to be very happy.
Pretty much. Perhaps billing per minute if you're going to stay for longer than an hour, or per item if you're staying for less. Though that seems overly complex and a logistical nightmare.
Anticafes. I was lucky enough to visit one of the first one (the whole idea originated in Moscow), and it's a wonderful cost-effective answer to the traditional idea of a cafe: just charge visitors for time on a fixed scale and provide all the snacks, beverages and entertainment for free.
Anticafes are more of an entertainment place, with many people meeting with friends, playing board games and other stuff like that. Many freelance workers I know prefer cafes and anticafes to co-working spaces exactly because of this laidback, unofficial atmosphere.
When I am touring the USA, (i.e. as a tourist) and enter a cafe and it's full of people heads down, earphones in, working, I walk out. It's not a nice space to be in. Even with music in the cafe, there is not the shared music in the customers. Why would I want to share a space with people who don't want to share with me?
In the UK, it's reasonably uncommon to find people wearing earphones in cafes. Most cafes have a good selection of music. It's more common, at least around here, that those working on laptops are students doing work. Often they will meet their friends and work together.
However, there are workers in these cafes too - and their etiquette is atrocious. I often see people leave their computers at the table, and head out to do some shopping in the local shops. Often they would have loud telephone conversations or conference calls. One even came back with their own food. When the cafe staff said "sorry, you cannot eat your own food here", they replied "oh, it's okay" as if the cafe were apologising!
When I bring my laptop, I make sure I spend the same amount of time in the cafe as if I was using it as in any other way, and never over the lunch period when tables are at a premium. One drink per hour seems fair.
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[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 284 ms ] threadBesides which, the noise levels would drive me nuts. I have difficulty working with any kind of unstructured noise.
$25 a week spent on breakfast and coffee plus a new environment isn’t really going to ding my budget, maybe that is different for other people depending on their field.
I'm not a full-time remote worker, but as mentioned above, I do work out of cafe environments quite often. Why? Well, in my case, I'm single, I live alone, and if the only place I'm ever at - besides my day-job office - is my apartment, I'd get really bored and go stir-crazy. For me, the cafe is a "3rd place". That is helped by the fact that I drink copious amounts of coffee.
Also, sometimes (as somebody else in one of these threads mentioned) there's something satisfying about being around other people, but not being required to interact with them. And there's something about the hustle-and-bustle / hum of activity in a cafe that is comforting. See, for example, how some people working in an office will put on a "coffee shop noises" audio track while working, to attempt to partially simulate that environment.
So, yeah, it's a pretty easy habit to get into as a student.
These days, I mainly get my solo research in on weekends, and spend a few hours in a local coffee shop. I tip generously, and occasionally buy a pound of coffee to keep things on the up and up.
What I do enjoy in coffee shops though, is writing ideas and planning/brainstorming projects (by hand) in my paper notebook.
Sitting at a table for two with a laptop was fine. There usually would be at least one more. It would more often than not broadcast "student" than "pretentious remote worker"
If you feel like that, you just have to overcome that feeling. I have no problem doing what is my passion from anywhere. Except if it's too noisy or there's too much people. But then you figure out something else.
Determine your actions based on the imaginary judgement of completely random strangers is going to serverely limit the way you live your life.
A few people have been saying that. But, how can you possibly know? It sounds like a platitude one tells themselves in order to not feel self-conscious, rather than an actual discernable fact.
This though can be turned around easily: that the one feeling that way is self-centered and believes unknown people in a cafe care about what he "broadcasts" when he uses his laptop. What makes he believe he is special enough to warrant attention for having a laptop out? Who even cares about what they do? (short of ritual sacrifice).
People go to coffee shops to talk, to read, to write, to think. It doesn’t seem like much of a reach to think people would go there to do work. The common theme seems to be wanting to focus.
Oftentimes my partner would come home from school, work, and want to relax. I'd want to go anywhere. "Where?" "I dunno, even the mall." "Is there something you want?" "Not that I can think of."
But it was to be "social". Be around people, even with minimal interaction. She wanted to relax, had been busy and around people all day.
I'd been at home with our cat and our dog.
You can be "social", or at least "not alone", without having to talk to people.
If you don't need your workstation for heavy lifting.
If you're mainly reading research papers or writing little scripts, to apply the documentation to your use case or something, then coffee shops can be great.
Sure, it personally makes me feel anti-social, but when I do hang out with people at coffe shops and see someone else work, I do know how they feel and won't judge.
And yea, I've done some pretty good "work" at coffee shops, where I didn't have the distraction of super high bandwidth and playing games at home. And as others have pointed out, being around people is fun, even when you're not interacting with them, though that doesn't relate to your point.
I don't know the answer in general, so I can only offer the anecdote that "I do it." I work a day-job and am working on a side-project, and I visit a coffee shop / cafe environment usually 2 or 3 nights a week after the day-job to work on my project for a few hours. And I typically do the same for up to 8 hours on Saturday and maybe 4-6 hours on Sunday.
I've tried a couple of times and I always feel like such a pretentious wanker when I pull out a laptop and start working on stuff, like I'm somehow broadcasting "oh look at me, I work remotely, aren't I special?"
Interesting. Such a thought has never occurred to me. But I live in a college heavy area and visit a cafe that's near UNC, Duke and NC Central, and there are always plenty of people with laptops out. A lot are clearly students, but I'm pretty sure there's a decent number who are working professionals as well.
On the OTOH, despite the prevalence of laptops there, there are always plenty of tables with people who aren't on laptops and who are socializing in-person.
At least around here most people seem to be on laptops. Whether they're playing a game or doing actual work I don't know since I try to not peep at other screens, but nobody has given me any stare-downs or anything rude.
My complaint would be people yapping on their cell phone for work. That's a big distraction, you blend in with a laptop, but nothing says "I'm important" yelling into your bluetooth for an hour.
[0]: http://www.workshopcafe.com
I know coworking spaces (Betahause in Berlin comes into my mind) which combine a "cyber"-cafe with an optional regular coworking space which gives you flexibility for showing up only 1 day and buy a coffee for working some hours.
When I lived in Spain I managed to find an office for 150 euro a month (all inclusive), which was ideal. Now back in the UK I'd likely pay that a week for anything comparable.
Outside of London there is a dire shortage of accessible and affordable work spaces.
https://asoftmurmur.com/?v=003a6400000e00000000&autoplay=1
This is the best approach. (The "a staff member will approach the uninitiated customer whose laptop is open for more than a couple of minutes with a gentle but firm request ‘to finish up what you’re doing and close the laptop, please,’ approach is the worst. No sign, no explanation--just a demand.)
> the Rose doesn’t provide electrical outlets; a dwindling battery should be a sign that it’s time to go
This is also fine, albeit ineffective against my MacBook Air.
I have one colleague who won't answer an email or whatsapp unless she's on free wi-fi somewhere. This is an extreme example but I know others who are not much worse.
This, together with the fact that default TTL different OSes set for packets they send is well known, and virtually no user ever changes these defaults, means that if the ISP detects different packets with TTL for example 64 and 63 coming from you, you very likely have something tethered to your phone.
There are tools like https://github.com/p0f/p0f (it does much more, than just this, though) to make exploiting this technique easy. I remember we used p0f to detect unauthorized connection sharing in a certain university dorm network, and caught quite a few people.
You have to understand that cafés like churches or pubs or the town square have traditionally been designed as the "The Third Space" in people's lives behind home and work. It were community building happen. It's designed for that, not for work. Howard Schultz founder of Starbucks tried to bring this to the US where he felt people were loosing touch with those community spaces but still had/felt a need for them. It has been very successful for his company to tap into that need. But on the flip side lot of misguided notions have developed in peoples(cafe owners/patrons) heads about what that third space is for or why they need it.
It makes sense to me, because one of the tenets of higher education should be to serve in the interest of the community.
Agreed - I understand that cafe owners dislike people lounging around for free, but I'd be seriously pissed if someone came to hurry me along after a couple of _minutes_.
Cafes aren't your free all-day office offering complimentary wifi for the price of a $2 coffee, they're businesses trying to make money to pay their rent.
Then a some point, most chains started offering free wifi. Which was useless because many of the places only have 2-6mbs which is useless with anyone else using it.
Starbucks at least went with 'Google wifi' and have ~ 100mbs service which is really nice. But they are empty for some reason, the local Barnes and Noble is packed with laptops and unusable wifi.
Anyway, this is why coworking spaces exist.
If I was running a cafe, I'd expect that you'd be leaving within 5 to 10 minutes of finishing your coffee. The very few times I've worked in a coffee shop, I've done that myself. It's not a coworking space.
How I see it this is a problem for the providers of the cafe service to solve, not the customers.
But we don't even have to guess. Big businesses that are very careful about monitoring things like this, such as Starbucks, actively encourage laptops (with tons of power, wifi, rows of single-person desk tables) so maybe your intuition about what is profitable is just wrong? I mean you've thought about it for ten minutes and were already coming into the situation annoyed because you want to sit down and someone else was there, and Starbucks are running this business full time with I would guess people dedicated to thinking about this kind of thing.
I'm more inclined to believe their reasoning on it.
Sorry, did I say something to offend you?
hah... Living in Spain right now.. That attitude wouldnt fly
Presumably the owner would actually have asked your mother or whichever other adult is with you, though.
If they had signs stating their policy clearly upfront I would accept it, but if not, in the cultures that I know the purpose of a coffee shop is exactly to sit there for quite a while. I'm in Germany and I used to live in the US for a decade. If I go to a real Italian coffee shop (i.e. the owner is an Italian), of which there are quite a few, I see people sitting and chatting for long times, an hour is not unreasonable at all. They don't order much after the initial purchase either.
Also, the entire history of coffee shops is that they are places of meeting people, not vending places. So if a particular coffee shop wants to have a "10 minutes only" policy I'm certainly fine with it, everybody can lead their business as they wish, but to what I know this is against all expectations, so it should be stated right away.
For laptop policy it depends more on the local context and I would not always expect to see a sign if they don't want it, but just the acceptance of larger amounts of time spent sitting there alone is a more global thing I would think taht cannot be easily deduced just from looking at a place.
Laughably childish responses - "call the cops and make me" - indicate that the OP is childish. With childish people, reasoned discussion is less likely to carry the message that such behaviour is ridiculous than the public humiliation of having such childish behaviour highlighted. There will then be a small tantrum, probably involving turning it around and blaming me in some way (I expect I simply don't understand - that's the usual childish response, typically from teenagers) which shall be ignored.
Act like a child; get treated like a child. Nothing at all to do with the subject matter.
Read up on the history of cafes. This is what they historically were—places for people to be, not grab and go. If a coffee shop owner wants grab and go customers, they’re a glorified vending machine. (The article notes a conversation-versus-quiet dynamic that I can better empathise with.)
For reference, typical Switzerland prices are:
instant, homemade: $0.20 Keurig/Nespresso, homemade: $0.50 supermarket: $2 bakery/coffee-to-go-place in a train station: $4 nice café: $6 Starbucks: $8
So what exactly would I be paying the extra $2 ($6-$4) for when ordering at your café? Assuming here that it all tastes the same to me - after all, if I really cared, I just made it myself.
Obviously independent coffee shops can't do that, so if you want to sit in a coffee shop all day working on your laptop, try to pick a large chain, instead of an independent.
I'm probably missing something obvious, but how does this work? What is the purpose of keeping the loss-making stores running?
These sorts of submissions have made me self-conscious about going to non-Starbucks to get any work done, heh.
A friend of mine is a middle manager at a retail kitchen goods chain you've probably heard of. I've heard from him that many of their stores are always struggling to break even, and that most of the business is supported by a small number of stores that do an outsized amount of business.
The problem isn't laptops, it's people being assholes.
It seems if you don't want people to hang out, then don't have seating?
Here it's more common you leave the phone at the bar to be recharged if charging your phone is what you want.
Why should a cafe not offer that if it brings them customers?
If the cafe has plenty of free space, then people working on laptops is extra customers and beneficial. If it has little space, then a person ordering a coffee every two hours is taking away space from more profitable customers who eat, drink and leave in 30 minutes.
To me, when the battery gets low it means time to go. So I don't mind.
This is, of course your opinion. To me, a cafe is an ideal co-working space. It encourages deep thought, the chance to collide with other smart people in my industry, get out of the house, etc.
However, it does add to the atmosphere.
It also has something to do with atmosphere. A cafe should have light chatter and people socializing. If the majority is sitting around in silence, it takes away from the special feeling a cafe normally has. I could get coffee at home for a fraction of the price.
If people start using Cafes differently, why hold them to a forgotten standard? Cafes should see a business opportunity in that they can align themselves further with the needs of the consumer. Either that, or the consumer walks.
Open, unrestricted wifi comes to mind as an example.
Also it's somewhat off-putting for the people trying to have the leisure.
That’s to say: I agree it’s not cool to squat a table 3hrs for 5$, but sometimes these situations happen because it’s the house that’s run by a hipster wanker...
A couple of years ago, I reconnected with a childhood friend, after about 10 years of living far apart and only having very sporadic contact. We spent 6 hours talking about everything and nothing, after we finished our burgers.
I would have been extremely annoyed if the staff had decided to shoo us out of there after an hour.
But, the customer is always right. If it's not clearly signed that seating is time-limited, I will assume it is not.
I have been at (rather popular, busy) restaurants where a waiter will politely inform you that they have another reservation on our table 30 minutes later, giving us time to finish up without feeling rushed. Perhaps it's just a polite way to get rid of lingering customers, but we certainly didn't feel as if we were thrown out.
In a lot of cases, they'll even inform you beforehand that a reservation is for such and such time, usually 2 or 3 hours. That's perfectly fine and upfront, I certainly don't mind that.
I don't go out to just eat and get the hell out. Conversation is absolutely a part of going out to eat, and people don't appreciate feeling rushed.
https://www.fastcompany.com/887990/starbucks-third-place-and...
And for the café, I know it's not a perfect solution, but beyond solutions like obtrusive locking outlet covers, or turning off outlets at the breaker, you could also look at swapping the outlet out with an L5-15R. That's the same voltage & amperage as a regular 5-15 receptacle, but uses a circular plug that pushes in and turns. You'll see them (or a similar amperage) on certain Metrolink (in LA) and Caltrain Bombardier cars.
You could either get an adapter (NEMA L5-15P to 5-15R), or change out the plugs on the stuff you'd plug in (like vacuum cleaners). And no, it won't stop someone who is absolutely determined, and who is willing to go out and buy an adapter. But it makes it all the more obvious that this receptacle is not for people to use.
The example I'm thinking of is Philz in Sunnyvale. Starting some time around the new year, every time I've been there they've been playing much harder & louder music.
When I'm at a place, I prefer to be there without headphones, to show that I'm not completely disconnecting from the outside world. But with some of the music that's been playing, it's really hard to do, and so I've been avoiding it for the past month or so.
This is the trend across cafes in my city in Romania. It is not clear to me what the motivation is: the staff just say that they have been instructed to keep the music playing at all times and at a constant volume. Is it to discourage people from staying long? Or do the owners believe that you need to have loud dance music playing at all times in order to attract people? It’s just sad that we are losing the Central European tradition of cafes as quiet, intellectual places where one could stay for a long time with a book or pen and paper.
As I understand it they're quite successful. They have opened multiple new cafes in Paris' central neighborhoods.
[1] https://www.anticafe.eu/
True, but then again the hallmark of NYTimes aspirational twee writing is to harp on some wannabe hipster psuedo-retro twee bs - "Cafes are too silent!! People aren't interacting in social old fashioned ways! Nobody makes 3-week brine horseradish pickles anymore except for this one Fort Point Hassid who only works on the 8th Tuesday of the Month!!!" while simultaneously ignoring the common sense factors (Cafe owners are losing $$ because people use their cafes as free office space, and horseradish pickles be gross).
Laptop users aren't seen very often in general though (and TBH with how noisy the shops are i doubt they'll ever be), although i live near a university and there is a coffee shop nearby with nice flat tables looking at the street and i often see students with laptops there. Also years ago, at my first gamedev job (although before i joined) on a startup, the team didn't had offices for a few months and the programming team mostly worked from laptops at the roof of a coffee shop :-P (and AFAIK generally all meetings with the entire team and everything were held in various coffee shops around the city).
Of course all that means that there are tons of coffee shops everywhere and i remember when i lived abroad, my landlord - who visited Greece - telling me how strange he found that there were so many coffee shops.
Personally i considered visiting a nearby coffee shop with my laptop a few times (there are 5 shops just 100m range, two right outside of my place), but i always change my mind because of the noise... and because i don't like working from a laptop :-P.
Isn't that so in the US? I mean, the guys from Friends practically lived in that Central Perk coffee house.
I both work out of and hangout in coffee shops in the US, when working remote I make sure to always use the long community table if there are already a few seats used, or sit at the bar, or a two person table if I must. And if it is super busy and people are looking for seats I’ll go elsewhere.
Nah, the issue is, multiple groups of 2-4 people no longer have a place to hang out, meaning the shop earns less money.
The difference is probably in the fact that Greeks go to the cafés with their friends. You almost never see a single person sitting at a table with a coffee cup for hours on end- except in the traditional cafés (kafeneio, vs cafeteria) that have basically single-person tables.
It works for the café because if you have a parea of five that stay around for five hours, that's like having five single customers each hogging a table for an hour- except you can accommodate several groups at once so you sell many more coffees per table than you would if your clientelle were single remote workers and their laptops.
Maybe, if it became much more common for remote workers working from cafés in Greece, then the economics would change- and our (café) culture would be in danger :)
The economy has also shifted. Lots of people are self-employed. And most jobs that people make money with only require a laptop and WiFi.
I have two very good friends that own cafes here (which seem to work similar to what you are describing) and he hates when someone uses a table for hours on end and ends up paying one euro or something, even groups. He always told me that his best customers are the ones that come in, have their coffee, pay the euro, don't care about receipt and leave after 10 minutes. Those are the ones that keep him in business (and yes, tax on a 1 euro coffee isn't much, but multiply by easily 500 a day, and it starts to add up)
I also decry the loss of public spaces such as libraries (in my northern European city the main public library was rebuilt at fabulous cost and has less seating than the old one).
Is that a problem though? From my experience, at the library I frequent, while being well visited at all times has at most 20% of their seating occupied.
Don't live in northern europe though, so YMMV (maybe it's too cold outside to justify going to the library only for a short visit :D)
EDIT: The library I'm talking about is also a great social development. It's been built (about 10 years ago now) in the most densely-populated part of town, which was and still is considered by too many people as 'problematic' and it really lifts up the whole area.
I'm never bothered about "hogging a table"; if a certain coffeeshop happens to be full, there are at least three others within 5m of walking distance that will have many free tables.
From my experience on Samos, this might be attributed to the current economic situation. At bars it's not uncommon to see a person drink a pint over 1-2 hours. Most of the people that I observed did more smoking then drinking at bars and coffee shops because cigarettes (especially hand rolled ones) are a lot cheaper then drinks.
I think I'd have called the police
- Don't work in a place that's really busy. If it becomes busy, I'll wrap up and move somewhere else.
- Buy something at least every 2 hours. If I've had too many coffees, then decaf at least, or a pastry. Spend around $5 each time.
- Tip! (Where appropriate). I like to add $1 for each purchase.
- Get to know the employees. Learn their names and greet them.
Yes, it is a bit more expensive (usually ~20$ for a day), but you get the same "coffee shop experience" and don't have to feel guilty or obliged to eat/drink (often not so healthy) stuff all the time.
Also, the amount to spend can scale with your budget; it seems more important to just to get up and buy something, just so you don't appear completely cut off from the rest of the world.
I normally get espresso drinks, but sometimes I'll get a normal drip coffee, which usually has a cheaper refill ($3 for the first, and $1 for a refill), and I'll tip on each refill.
Once you've worked from a few coffeeshops you can recognize the places that welcome remote workers - they go out of their way to provide lots of outlets and lots of 1/2 person tables. If a place has bright lighting, loud music, very few outlets - it's polite to find somewhere else.
I wonder why more places just don't employ this as a tactic?
Because they want to run a cafe, not a networking hub. Your typical owner isn’t going to be aware of turnkey solutions for this and would rather not spend money on a manager wifi provider to solve this.
Essentially, you are charged for your time and everything else is free. Presently I think it's about 7p per minute for the first hour, and then 4p a minute afterwards - there's also a cap.
While in there, coffee, snacks, etc, are all "free".
Perhaps this sort of model could work? Obviously if you're not willing to kick out all the remote workers. I guess this turns it into more of a coworking space though.
[0]: http://www.ziferblat.co.uk/
https://www.anticafe.eu/strasbourg
In the UK, it's reasonably uncommon to find people wearing earphones in cafes. Most cafes have a good selection of music. It's more common, at least around here, that those working on laptops are students doing work. Often they will meet their friends and work together.
However, there are workers in these cafes too - and their etiquette is atrocious. I often see people leave their computers at the table, and head out to do some shopping in the local shops. Often they would have loud telephone conversations or conference calls. One even came back with their own food. When the cafe staff said "sorry, you cannot eat your own food here", they replied "oh, it's okay" as if the cafe were apologising!
When I bring my laptop, I make sure I spend the same amount of time in the cafe as if I was using it as in any other way, and never over the lunch period when tables are at a premium. One drink per hour seems fair.