At this point, there should probably just be a generic "THIS PRODUCT IS KNOWN TO THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA TO CAUSE CANCER" sticker that companies can stick on pretty much anything they sell there. <eyeroll>
Not even kidding ... EVERYTHING carries with it the potential for leading to cancer. Air with silica dust particles in it from natural sources, water that carries radioactive particles or parasites and pathogens of any number of types ... literally everything. NO exception. Just alone being alive has an inherent risk of leading to cancer due to natural processes of mutation. This is just more evidence of Liberal insanity that is bizarrely out of touch with reality, the very basis of the foundation of reason and science itself. No, not the proto-religion of Science, the method and set of techniques that are the scientific method that are all but not applied as so many research studies have found. what was it, 89% irreproducibility in the social "Sciences"?
I get the sarcasm, but would this be legal? It's satire if it's not actually known as a carcinogen, and a legal requirement if it is. It would dilute the warning in the public's perception, but companies might find it cheapest and easiest to just stick it on everything.
If something is carcinogenic is always a matter of volume. Most things are carcinogenic if consumed in quantities large enough. Most things carcinogenic if aerosolized and inhaled. Most things are carcinogenic if left on your skin long enough.
Feces are produced by the human body, too. Should you be eating them?
Just because something is also produced by the human body or is "natural" doesn't mean it is good for humans to ingest, especially in significant quantities over long periods of time.
The latest is maple syrup it now has to have a warning it "may contain lead".
Which is I think is an inflammatory way to phrase it. There should be a level shown: "This product has lead levels of 11ppb, California drinking water has lead levels of 11ppb".
edit: Oh and apple seeds naturally contain cyanide, bananas have radioactive potassium-40, fish has mercury and on and on.
The lawsuit was filed in 2010 and says coffee sellers should pay fines of up to $2,500 (£1,800) for every person exposed to acrylamide in California since 2002.
The next phase of the trial will determine the exact penalties, but some companies have reportedly agreed to settle and post warnings about the chemical.
A great example of how much bad regulations can cost businesses, or even good regulations applied badly.
Steaming or even pressure-cooking potatoes (or any other food) at <121C/250F doesn't produce substantial amounts of acrylamide. It's only higher-temp cooking (frying, baking) that's bad.
If you like bread, sucks to be you. Bread is a filler for when better foods are scarce or too expensive. The kinds of bread that are affordable on a tight budget are awful; good bread (still not that good for you, but at least whole grain, low sugar, maybe some added seeds and nuts) is expensive. The added cost for "good" bread comes from the expensive healthy additions, so the healthier the bread is, the more it approximates the cost of the seeds/nuts/fruits/etc with only a token amount of bread dough to hold everything together, and you're not saving any money compared to eating those nutritional foods raw or lightly cooked. Baking also reduces the amounts of most nutrients, so even the good additions to good bread aren't as healthy as eating them separately.
ETA: I'm not talking about how bread tastes. I don't dispute that bread tastes good. That's why people eat it. Like most carbs, if all you have is bread you will keep eating it until you get sick or you force yourself to quit still feeling hungry... that's the curse of carbs. Tasting good and being temporarily addictive is not the same as being good for you. Adding bread to other stuff as part of a sandwich does not make the bread magically better for you.
> If you like bread, sucks to be you. Bread is a filler for when better foods are scarce or too expensive; I would say it's not part of a good diet.
Eat better bread. Seriously. There is a reason it used to eaten a lot more than it is now, and that’s because by and large it’s badly made now. Well made bread with proper incredients is fantastic. Methods such as the Chorleywood process have removed most of the good and all the taste. Bread requires flour, water and salt. Be sceptical is there is much more than that. Crust is better with a little added sugar or honey and a little fat helps texture and flavour.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process
It's incredibly easy to make bread. It's not even labor-intensive or expensive: You can often find used bread machines at a second-hand shop for about ten dollars, and the ingredients for a loaf of bread are a fraction the cost of a commercial loaf.
I make good bread a couple times a week, for maybe fifty cents a loaf.
Good bread for $0.50/loaf? By what metric is it good? It tastes good? I never disputed that cheap bread can taste good. It has a token amount of good additives? Sure, you can do that, and it makes the bread sound healthy, without actually being healthy.
Let's assume the loaf is 1 pound (likely slightly more). You claim $0.50 ingredients in that 1 lb. Cheap flour is what, I see $0.02/oz at walmart (25lb bulk), so that's $0.32 per loaf, max. You've added 18 cents of other ingredients. (Edit: factoring in water, more like $0.15-0.20 of flour, so 30-35 cents for healthy additives). You can't buy much with 35 cents. The bread is still a bunch of empty carbs combined with some healthy food (baked, so a bunch of the nutrients are reduced. You can make more expensive bread that's 1 or 5 dollars too, it doesn't change the fact that bread is mostly empty carbs, plus whatever you added that you could have eaten separately and gotten more nutrients from.
You seem to think the only "good" bits of bread are seeds and nuts some people add. That is not bread. Bread is water, flour and yeast, and salt optionally.
Great bread doesn't have to be expensive and it doesn't need anything extra. And "healthy additives" doesn't make bad bread good.
His/her communication isn't the most clear, but the point being made is that bread is not healthy, and that it essential to current human population size, but the species would be better off not consuming it ideally. That it should be seen as a treat, as something to eat despite its effect on the body, not because of it.
Anecdote Alert!
A very knowledgeable Chinese doctor (acupuncturist, trained on the mainland)warned me of this decades ago.
She said that for my body type, coffee was extremely bad. She explained (in her broken English)that the coffee contained "fire" due to the way the beans were processed and that this could make me more susceptible to cancer. Grilled food was also a no-no (for me). Baked & fried foods? For most people, fuggedaboudit!
I can't help but notice the latest research is beginning to show exactly what she told me all those years ago.
My very knowledgeable statistics professor (my professor beats your doctor) told me that extraordinary claims ("fire" content from grilling causing cancer) require extraordinary evidence (say, some science behind)
As a resident of California, these warnings are a joke. You learn to pay absolutely no attention to them, because they are everywhere. They are like the real-life equivalent of the "this site uses cookies" warnings the EU imposes.
Do the people behind this lawsuit truly in good-faith believe such warnings for coffee will make the world better? (It seems hard to imagine.) Or are there other motivation at play here?
Prop 65 lawsuits are a money-making venture. There are law firms that specialize in bringing these cases and they collect tens of millions of dollars in settlements each year.
As non-residents of California, we're happy to hear that residents view these warnings the same way the rest of us do. It seems that _everything_ causes cancer in California.
The EU's cookie-law is often made light of here, but there's a difference between essential and non-essential cookies.
The non-essential cookie warnings for most intents and purposes can be read as "This site will track you".
Sites using essential cookies don't have to put up a warning.
Following third party links, I now often decide that particular content is not that important when the warning pops up. It also serves as a rudimentary filter for lower quality content.
So cookie warnings being everywhere tell me a tale about the sorry state of the Web, and not a joke about bureaucracy gone haywire.
As a consumer, I want to know the risks posed by what I buy and consume. Part of the (predictable) response to this is because its coffee. If it were, say, water bottles, cooking pots, or drinking straws; or if it were keyboards, cell phones, or socks-- the response would likely be different.
The problem is that the labels do not give us any idea of the absolute risks involved, and so, yeah, they are all ignored. A 3-4 level color coded warning would be much more useful, perhaps with a link to something more informative.
As a resident of Oregon, I notice a curious pattern wherein shitty knockoff or generic products are more likely to carry the warnings, and the warnings don't say which ingredients caused the warnings to be issued. Doing reading on various product ingredients is interesting; in many cases, the manufacture of the product is hazardous to the workers, and so I have begun to see Prop 65 stickers as telling me that the laborers who produced the product worked in unsafe conditions.
In the specific case of coffee, it seems that this ruling was quite reasonable on the facts, up to the still-open question of whether acrylamide really should be considered carcinogenic.
I've read before that businesses take it much more seriously than people do. They will consider modify their products to remove the the need for warning labels. So the law can introduce changes. Here's an example of Coca-Cola modifying the formula for the caramel color in their soda: https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2012/03/07/148075310/co...
It probably does more harm than good since it detracts from the severity of actual warnings on products we know can be dangerous.
I have the same issue with the EU cookie law which while well intentioned it essentially trained a whole generation to accept an annoying pop up without reading or understanding it.
I used to work for an eyeglass lens manufacturer. I remember having to set up a new label printing system to print labels that said "this product contains blah blah known to cause cancer blah blah". This was on eyeglass lenses. What's the exposure risk here? Eating them? Who eats their eyeglass lenses?
Maybe the exposure risk was from dust inhalation if the lenses were cut or ground to fit a pair frames. Though point taken - prop 65 warnings are on everything. I still choose to enter parking garages.
There must be another nefarious goal behind the lawsuit. When there is need to fight the government on so many more critical issues, why would a non profit choose to waste time and money on something so pointless ? Need to dig deeper
Do the people behind this lawsuit truly in good-faith believe such warnings for coffee will make the world better? (It seems hard to imagine.) Or are there other motivation at play here?
While I suppose the plaintiff could have altruistic intentions, I’ll let you guess what their lawyers’ motivation is....
I'll never forget scrolling through google news a few years back. There were two articles that were grouped together but with slightly different headlines:
Recent study shows that coffee extends life
Recent study shows that coffee causes cancer
This is one of those debates that will never end. The solution is "everything in moderation". I enjoy a cup of coffee per day - and I limit it at that...
I have been wondering about this for a while about coffee and energy drinks as well. Is one a day already addiction? I have a co-worker who has a Red Bull every day and he pointed to an article that said, one per day is fine. To me it seemed way too much. Maybe moderation is once a week?
Well an addiction is when you are physically or mentally dependant on something. It doesn’t matter how much you have a day or week, it matters what happens if you don’t have it.
Absolutely yes. I have only a cup of coffee (or the equivalent caffeine via tea) per day and get killer headaches if I skip a day. Whether this is okay or not, I'm not sure. I usually see articles saying three or four hundred milligrams is okay, but that seems like a lot to me (that's a few cups a day depending on how you measure your cups).
I have several cups of coffee per weekday morning and I don't even notice when I skip a day (I don't drink it on weekends since it's more of a work ritual.)
Moderation doesn't just mean you should have 100-200g of something every day.
The effects on your body from a daily dose of 200g of broccoli vs 200g of fish vs 200g/ml of Coke vs 200g of sugar vs 200g/ml of whisky are going to be very different.
Doctors used to (still do) say that 1 glass of wine a day is fine, and that is considered "moderation" but others now say that you should probably drink alcohol at most once a week to give your liver time to recover and heal completely, because alcohol is toxic. So basically no amounts are really "fine" or should be considered as "moderation". But at least if you give it time to heal that may just work - but still not ideal for your body.
Fair point. I'm comparing myself to the people who say they have 4 or 5 cups a day... My coffee drinking habit is fairly tame in comparison. But I can't disagree with your point of view either.
The situation is ironic, but there's an even higher level of irony in relation to cancer. In some contexts, NOT detecting cancer gives statistically better life quality and/or expectancy.
According to current statistics, testing methods (X-ray) are slightly harmful by minutely increasing risk of cancer, and the resulting overdiagnosis of benign tumors unleashes harsh medication on some people who'd otherwise have had happily lived their lives to natural lifespan without any significant symptoms or discomfort.
This type of research is just BS to begin with. The way they collect and analyze the data is only capable of generating conflicting evidence while never leading to cumulative knowledge. The method is called NHST (null hypothesis significance testing).
The main issue is that a null hypothesis is tested rather than any real hypothesis, then they try to draw conclusions about the real hypothesis (yes it is a simple strawman argument). These problems are well known, yet it continues. I was trained to do it not too long ago.
Reading the comments here it strikes me that apparently noone agrees with this decision as apparently in California a lot of products seem to carry such cancer warnings. I'm not living in California, but is this true, do you have examples? Just curious.
Many building in California, including apartments, will carry the warning label if they were built before a certain year and if lead paint may have been used inside in the past. Even if the lead paint has been removed.
Many fast food drive thrus will have the sticker on the drive thru window due to the preservatives used in some of the food and the components used in the cooking process.
Disneyland has signs bearing the warning through out the park.
This was a voter passed proposition, which changed our constitution to require this signage.
The proposition wasn’t super well written, and it quickly became apparent that basically everything has to be labeled as possibly causing cancer. Unfortunately, since it’s in our constitution, it’s nearly impossible to change now.
Interesting that no one thinks to blame the researchers for this predicament. The truth is that the way carcinogenesis is tested nearly everything will lead to cancer in some dose (the same way that drinking water will kill you if you drink enough at once). This isn't even news, eg 1990: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC54830/
These goofy california signs are just a symptom of the underlying crappy research. It is what happens if you actually take these "discoveries" seriously.
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[ 5.2 ms ] story [ 136 ms ] threadWARNING: This human being contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm.
Just because something is also produced by the human body or is "natural" doesn't mean it is good for humans to ingest, especially in significant quantities over long periods of time.
Which is I think is an inflammatory way to phrase it. There should be a level shown: "This product has lead levels of 11ppb, California drinking water has lead levels of 11ppb".
edit: Oh and apple seeds naturally contain cyanide, bananas have radioactive potassium-40, fish has mercury and on and on.
A great example of how much bad regulations can cost businesses, or even good regulations applied badly.
Does this mean that potatoes should come with a warning? And bread?
If you like bread, sucks to be you. Bread is a filler for when better foods are scarce or too expensive. The kinds of bread that are affordable on a tight budget are awful; good bread (still not that good for you, but at least whole grain, low sugar, maybe some added seeds and nuts) is expensive. The added cost for "good" bread comes from the expensive healthy additions, so the healthier the bread is, the more it approximates the cost of the seeds/nuts/fruits/etc with only a token amount of bread dough to hold everything together, and you're not saving any money compared to eating those nutritional foods raw or lightly cooked. Baking also reduces the amounts of most nutrients, so even the good additions to good bread aren't as healthy as eating them separately.
ETA: I'm not talking about how bread tastes. I don't dispute that bread tastes good. That's why people eat it. Like most carbs, if all you have is bread you will keep eating it until you get sick or you force yourself to quit still feeling hungry... that's the curse of carbs. Tasting good and being temporarily addictive is not the same as being good for you. Adding bread to other stuff as part of a sandwich does not make the bread magically better for you.
If you think that then it sucks to be you. Good bread is a joy.
Or, you know, the key ingredient in a class of highly popular and convenient foods called sandwiches.
Eat better bread. Seriously. There is a reason it used to eaten a lot more than it is now, and that’s because by and large it’s badly made now. Well made bread with proper incredients is fantastic. Methods such as the Chorleywood process have removed most of the good and all the taste. Bread requires flour, water and salt. Be sceptical is there is much more than that. Crust is better with a little added sugar or honey and a little fat helps texture and flavour. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_bread_process
I make good bread a couple times a week, for maybe fifty cents a loaf.
Let's assume the loaf is 1 pound (likely slightly more). You claim $0.50 ingredients in that 1 lb. Cheap flour is what, I see $0.02/oz at walmart (25lb bulk), so that's $0.32 per loaf, max. You've added 18 cents of other ingredients. (Edit: factoring in water, more like $0.15-0.20 of flour, so 30-35 cents for healthy additives). You can't buy much with 35 cents. The bread is still a bunch of empty carbs combined with some healthy food (baked, so a bunch of the nutrients are reduced. You can make more expensive bread that's 1 or 5 dollars too, it doesn't change the fact that bread is mostly empty carbs, plus whatever you added that you could have eaten separately and gotten more nutrients from.
There's also really nothing wrong with calories. Most people need something like 2000 a day, leaves plenty of room for eating things just for taste.
Great bread doesn't have to be expensive and it doesn't need anything extra. And "healthy additives" doesn't make bad bread good.
No misinterpretation needed.
Bread is not a filler. Some people (most?) eat it because they enjoy it. They actively seek it even when "better" options are available.
tl;dr Paleo diet.
She said that for my body type, coffee was extremely bad. She explained (in her broken English)that the coffee contained "fire" due to the way the beans were processed and that this could make me more susceptible to cancer. Grilled food was also a no-no (for me). Baked & fried foods? For most people, fuggedaboudit!
I can't help but notice the latest research is beginning to show exactly what she told me all those years ago.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/20/chips-are-down...
Californian carcinogens are far past this point.
Do the people behind this lawsuit truly in good-faith believe such warnings for coffee will make the world better? (It seems hard to imagine.) Or are there other motivation at play here?
The non-essential cookie warnings for most intents and purposes can be read as "This site will track you".
Sites using essential cookies don't have to put up a warning.
Following third party links, I now often decide that particular content is not that important when the warning pops up. It also serves as a rudimentary filter for lower quality content.
So cookie warnings being everywhere tell me a tale about the sorry state of the Web, and not a joke about bureaucracy gone haywire.
The problem is that the labels do not give us any idea of the absolute risks involved, and so, yeah, they are all ignored. A 3-4 level color coded warning would be much more useful, perhaps with a link to something more informative.
"This sign was printed with materials known by the state of California to cause ..."
In the specific case of coffee, it seems that this ruling was quite reasonable on the facts, up to the still-open question of whether acrylamide really should be considered carcinogenic.
I have the same issue with the EU cookie law which while well intentioned it essentially trained a whole generation to accept an annoying pop up without reading or understanding it.
While I suppose the plaintiff could have altruistic intentions, I’ll let you guess what their lawyers’ motivation is....
https://youtu.be/sXJXLq1lN7U?t=1m44s
Is a glass of water a day excessive?
Absolutely yes. I have only a cup of coffee (or the equivalent caffeine via tea) per day and get killer headaches if I skip a day. Whether this is okay or not, I'm not sure. I usually see articles saying three or four hundred milligrams is okay, but that seems like a lot to me (that's a few cups a day depending on how you measure your cups).
Am I addicted?
Moderation doesn't just mean you should have 100-200g of something every day.
The effects on your body from a daily dose of 200g of broccoli vs 200g of fish vs 200g/ml of Coke vs 200g of sugar vs 200g/ml of whisky are going to be very different.
Doctors used to (still do) say that 1 glass of wine a day is fine, and that is considered "moderation" but others now say that you should probably drink alcohol at most once a week to give your liver time to recover and heal completely, because alcohol is toxic. So basically no amounts are really "fine" or should be considered as "moderation". But at least if you give it time to heal that may just work - but still not ideal for your body.
A video expanding on this:
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/everything-in-moderation-ev...
And another article giving some examples for why "everything in moderation" is a bad idea:
http://www.trishamandes.com/blog/2014/5/5/3-reasons-why-ever...
According to current statistics, testing methods (X-ray) are slightly harmful by minutely increasing risk of cancer, and the resulting overdiagnosis of benign tumors unleashes harsh medication on some people who'd otherwise have had happily lived their lives to natural lifespan without any significant symptoms or discomfort.
Plenty of literature on the internet, first few hits from Google: https://www.city-journal.org/html/stop-overscreening-cancer-... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4415291/
and a recent discussion on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16500924, in particular https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16502246
The main issue is that a null hypothesis is tested rather than any real hypothesis, then they try to draw conclusions about the real hypothesis (yes it is a simple strawman argument). These problems are well known, yet it continues. I was trained to do it not too long ago.
That's the way I enjoy my cigarettes. In moderation. /s
Many fast food drive thrus will have the sticker on the drive thru window due to the preservatives used in some of the food and the components used in the cooking process.
Disneyland has signs bearing the warning through out the park.
The proposition wasn’t super well written, and it quickly became apparent that basically everything has to be labeled as possibly causing cancer. Unfortunately, since it’s in our constitution, it’s nearly impossible to change now.
The only winner here is the lawyers.
These goofy california signs are just a symptom of the underlying crappy research. It is what happens if you actually take these "discoveries" seriously.