Apple Computers is a famous example: it was founded
by (mostly Republican) computer engineers who broke
from IBM in Silicon Valley in the 1980s, forming little
democratic circles of twenty to forty people with their
laptops in each other's garages.
The fact that the writer happened to write something that lots of people enjoyed neither contributes to nor detracts from the fact that this article is full of willfully contrarian edge, befitting a teenager.
That they are educated has nothing to do with whether they are right or their points are useful broadly. It's a dramatic story from someone who themselves thinks they are more useful than they are.
You’ve employed some sort of inverse ad hominem here. Credentials don’t mean we should take someone seriously. Their words should stand for themselves.
> Credentials don’t mean we should take someone seriously.
This is a level of cognitive dissonance I’m not prepared to commit to arguing against. I’m not capable of issuing the bar to every lawyer I require the services of, nor the board to every presumed doctor, nor a thesis defense to every academic.
Credentials aren’t perfect, but they are superior to the time required for everyone to judge everything on their own. For example, almost all scientists agree that climate change is human caused. Do I spend my time digging through climate data, verifying this? No. I rely on the expertise of experts.
This makes sense for hiring a human. It doesn’t make sense for evaluating what they say in a general context. Credentials are fairly useless next to consensus for evaluating a given statement.
You've just touched on why it's so hard to get a job in tech. As a culture, we've taken an attitude that credentials don't matter, and no matter what our past achievements are, we've got to prove ourselves over and over again. Maybe credentials should matter.
An "inverse ad hominem" is called an appeal to authority[0]. I don't think gp was insinuating that the author's points were true because they are an academic, though. Only suggesting that they not be dismissed out of hand, and lobbying for more insightful commentary on hn.
You make a good and valid point. But I think I'm just refuting his/her authority, not establishing my own. Also, there's so much pushing and shoving lately it's hard not to get caught up in it. Lately HN has a very policed feel to it. I think I'm entitled to be honest about how I feel. (We all should.)
In this particular case, I felt the parent to my comment was basically invaliding the honest feedback of its own parent comment. To me, that comes off as "conversation shutdown" and that's somewhat unsettling.
As an aside, the more educated the arena, the worse conversation shutdown seems to feel to me. My city, for example, has a major upper-end university at its heart, and it's very on-edge right now. You can feel it, and people are talking about it (and fighting). It really affects me and seemingly the student population too. It's as if we're not allowed to be honest with each other, or audible about what's happening.
I'm also wondering if these forums are worth visiting these days, for the sake of conversation. It's hard to have open, honest discussions and sometimes I get frustrated and lash out. That's my own fault. (Moreover, I'm not sure if there's much constructive conversation to be had at the moment.)
Oh, the times we live in. Guess I'll log off and read some Dickens.
Even if the content of the article is entirely frivolous, isn't the existence of the discussion here proof that it has at the very least provided some entertainment?
And isn't discussing a potentially enormous societal inefficiency worth doing?
At first I found some humour in the irony, but the more I think about it the article isn't really pointless. The point of it is to point out the bullshit and get people talking about that. Not only does the article have a point, but it succeeds in its purpose quite well, we are, after all, talking about pointless jobs when we weren't really thinking about them much before.
The socialists at Guardian complain when people get fired, but they also complain when they don’t.
And I haven’t noticed they’ve ever wondered if government jobs might be economically pointless (ie damaging). Usually it’s the opposite - they tend to recommend and call for more damage.
Edwardian-era mansions employed whole teams of butlers whose sole job was replacing candles.
Not everyone is in a position to make a discernible impact on society. 20% of society will always drive 80% of progress. Think hard how you want the remaining 80% to support their families.
Replacing candles was not a pointless job until electrification and incandescent bulbs achieved widespread adoption.
The Edwardian reign was just at the tail end of candle-based lighting. By 1914, most of the households that could afford it would have already installed at least one electric light. The Great War would have devastated the available supply of footmen, and made those still around prohibitively expensive, so I'd expect that any servant-employing house would have given up their candle-men entirely by 1918. They would be electrified afterward, with the hand-carried lighting moving to oil lamps, and any lamp-refill duties moved to less expensive female servants.
After that, those teams of footmen could be replaced by just one footman, or part-time handyman, to replace burnt-out bulbs. We still have people whose job includes responsibility for replacing malfunctioning lighting, including fluorescent tubes and ballasts. But we no longer have people whose sole responsibility is lighting, except perhaps in the very largest buildings, or those with special lighting needs, such as museums.
It wasn't busy work, but the majority of those jobs definitely don't exist any more.
Pretty simple, return to a 90% top tax rate and give the proceeds out as Basic Income. This shit situation we are in is not sustainable, we have levels of inequality in the US not seen since the roaring 20s and we all know how that ended.
Even 100% tax rate is not enough to pay for a meaningful UBI, even in the US. You will have to take major budget cuts somewhere.
Suppose we tax Forbes 500 at 100% level and the companies too. That would provide about 2 billion USD a year. Divided by population it will be less than $2k a person yearly.
Suppose you tax top 10%, I'd expect that to double this number. Still way not enough.
And we're not even close to military budget.
I have said this before, but I see some parallels between the modern world and Japan during the early Tokugawa era. Japan had pretty much reached a steady state by the time Tokugawa Iyeyasu came to power in 1600; most of the available land had been cultivated or settled, and, especially after the policies of Toyotomi Hideyoshi, society was locked in a rigid structure without much room for advancement or unrest.
As a result, the samurai class, especially Tokugawa's bannermen and "inner" families, sort of lost their purpose. There were no more wars to fight - not when peace lasted "as long as the waves roll" - and the strongest rebels they could expect were peasants who could not own swords.
Because they couldn't just revoke the lands Iyeyasu had distributed (without very good reason), and to give the samurai something to do, the Edo government expanded constantly, creating dozens of superfluous or sinecure bureaucratic roles, so that the second and third sons of samurai families wouldn't just sit around at home. I believe this pattern was repeated across the various daimyo han at each castle town. Further, the samurai household themselves created redundant job openings just to get more peasants out of unemployment. This was how every samurai ended up with six porters. Even as certain samurai families sunk into abject poverty in the 1800s, as the shogunate neared its end, this policy continued: your grandfather had increased the number of household retainers from five to six, to give someone's fourth son a job; and it had become hereditary, and now that fourth son's grandson was your sixth retainer, and you couldn't destroy the position even if you could barely afford to pay him.
When I hear politicians talking about "creating jobs", I think of the shogunate.
My major source for all this was Marius Jansen's The Making of Modern Japan. It's a sweeping book - 600 pages, I think, and covers everything from 1300 to 2000 - but one of its main focuses is the end of the Sengoku period and the rise of the Tokugawa.
For a view of what this looked like on the ground, you should check out "Musui's Story: The Autobiography of a Tokugawa Samurai".
It's the autobiography of Katsu Kokichi (Musui is another name he was known by), a samurai born in the early 19th century to a very low-ranking family. It's a firsthand account of life at the very lowest fringe of Shogunate society at the very end of that system, and is quite entertaining because Katsu is a lazy good-for-nothing who can't even get one of those pointless bureaucracy jobs and survives by doing "lowly" merchant work. I think it would make a pretty funny TV show because the protagonist is such a hapless loser.
you could also read shogun by james clavell, which is a fictional novel based on tokugawa. i read his whole asian saga series because that first book was so good.
When my family lived in Japan years ago, we noticed that when taking the train, approximately three attendants checked our tickets before we boarded a train. At least two of those jobs are "bullshit" in terms of producing wealth, but they are socially beneficial in a culture where the social contract requires near-zero unemployment. (I, apparently like you, can't help but remember this kind of arrangement when listening to "jobs guarantee" rhetoric from various politicians.)
Never noticed this, visited Japan a few times myself. Often I had mine checked at the gate and on the train. Are you sure you’re not just exaggerating?
I visited Japan recently and although I think the tickets were only actually checked by one person, there did seem to be an awful lot of superfluous staff associated with any sort of transport.
Could it be because you're a foreigner? I almost certainly got picked out on every ride on the Munich S-Bahn by a fare agent for a ticket-check because I was obviously not German.
Which I totally get - a tourist is way more likely to make a mistake than a local.
It has been my impression, having spent a significant amount of time in Germany, that German ticket checkers aren't primarily trying to detect people who have made a mistake, but those who intentionally ride without paying.
This information may be a bit dated, but I visited Berlin circa 2008 and my friend (American expat) who had been living there for 10+ years insisted that we not pay at the subway, because no one checked. Following his guidance, I never paid for the subway, and was never fined. This was just within the city of Berlin, though.
I recently visited and totally noticed a lot of minders, caretakers and other seemingly unnecessary jobs, mostly carried out by retirement-age employees or retired volunteers[0]. It was weird but seemed to make sense from a societal perspective, quite heartwarming.
Is visited the USA just once (in 2003), but there was an old man that took my bag off the end of the luggage belt at the airport and handed it to me. I could easily have picked it up myself, but he was there for those 30 centimeters of bag travel. I remember being amazed about it and remarking the pointlessness of that job to my coworkers.
What if you were older/disabled and had trouble lifting a medium-large suitcase?
Seems like not the most useless job in the world, especially since it helps keep things moving in the airport and reduces congestion by getting people their bags slightly faster.
I've never once seen this in my life (I typically have over 100k miles of airline travel per year) and have been traveling for work in the US since 2000. I don't understand how this scenario would play out, does he just grab a bag at random and hold it over his head? Read off the tag? Most people I know would be incensed if someone else were to grab their bag off the luggage belt.
You might be confusing this with curb side check in, which is a service airlines use as a convenience to customers checking bags (so they don't need to go to the ticket counter with heavy/numerous bags ).
It's something that has disappeared over time (like elevator attendants). If I had to guess it was a holdover from before there were actually conveyor belts and porters manually pushed out cards of luggage to stops and helped people with them.
If packing your own groceries fills your definition of work and doesn't just come under "shit you just do to get something from one place to another because you need it in your life". You REALLY need to get out and perform a variety of jobs. Like damn you gotta be about as useless as tits on a bull if you think pulling the food your going to eat that is NECESSARY FOR YOUR SURVIVAL off a bench and into a bag is work.
Growing food is necessary for my survival but I don’t do that myself. Grocery bagging is also not trivial. You can’t just throw things into a bag in random order, you need to think about it. A well packed set of shopping bags is a big convenience, and I don’t want to spend the bandwidth to do it.
There is a big difference between a job that creates convenience for other people and one that’s redundant or pointless.
> You can’t just throw things into a bag in random order, you need to think about it. A well packed set of shopping bags is a big convenience, and I don’t want to spend the bandwidth to do it.
Please tell me that you say this only to win the argument, because, come on. Putting things into something else is as trivial as it gets, and I can assure you that, even though I have never seen one, a person whose job is to fill the bits someone else bought into bags for them will give absolutely zero fucks about how he puts them things into them bags. Except maybe it's somewhere like Harrods, I guess, if they are paid high enough (now I recalled this: there was a comment or an article recently about an employee of Harrods whose job was to get fired when customers came to complain about other personnel).
Except while I am putting things on the conveyer belt I can’t exactly be bagging at the same time. In France, checkout lines are slower because you have to run from one side of the checkout belt, to load, then to the other side, to bag and then you have to pay; meanwhile people are waiting. That “useless” job increased efficiency since bags can be filled while I am attending to the transaction. Unless you buy just a few things at a time, it’s a huge timesaver.
Pretty sure the idea here is to quicken the checkout and lines-> having someone fill bags as someone else handles payments and you handle paying, makes queues move faster than having them grind to a halt due to someone packing their bags too slowly.
IN Italy there’s a little desk behind the cashiers and it’s split in half so while you fill your bags using one half the next client uses the other half. The amount of useless jobs in the states always amazes me, but then you look at the unemployment rate and everything becomes less useless ...
The US has this depending on the establishment. The chain "Adli" (German in origin I think, but they're common in the US) doesn't have baggers, they just have a counter past the checker and you are expected to bag your own groceries. I'm also pretty sure they require you to bring your own bags too, though, so baggers wouldn't make much sense.
In my country I've seen it mostly as a charity before Christmas: some teenage volunteers would ask you if you want them to pack your groceries, expecting a small donation in return.
I was a bagger for a while. For me, it was an entry level thing at the grocer. You would be responsible for organizing (not stocking) the shelves and sometimes cleaning. The highest paid people except managers and the owner were the cashiers. This was 20 years ago.
Having to bag my own groceries is infuriating. In Canada, The Real Canadian Superstore was the first to do this and it has a shitty feel.
The lines are long, I bring my own bags and have to get out of peoples way as I pay and try to bag my own groceries.
I actually started going to self checkouts because if they don’t bag my groceries, cashiers are useless to me!
If you think bagging is just stuffing bags in orde that groceries come, you’re nuts. I hate it when a useless cashier takes my apples and just tosses them into bags too. They’re fragile and need to be handled as such.
I definitely think bagging is a service worth paying for and appreciate when I get a bagger that gets it.
Oh, my first real job was bagging and helping customers with the groceeos to their cars. Not useles.
I don't travel much. But they are called porters (or, redcaps in Barbados because they wear red caps for easy identification). Let's say you are elderly, tired or have a lot of baggage. You wave a porter over, he or she takes the indicated bags off the airport conveyor belt, loads them onto a trolley, wheels them through Customs, and loads them onto the taxi for you. I've seen elderly, handicapped or heavily burdened (eg couples with 3 kids and 10 bags) use them. How else would one get by?
Baggage handlers at airports pull bags off the belts and put them in a line nearby (and sometimes give them to passengers) when there's a need to clear the belt, or when they don't have other work to do (at some airports). This is mainly to keep the belt from filling up.
They also sometimes do this when looking for a bag for transfer (which failed to get interlined correctly or something, or when an elite has a connection but there's no interline agreement.)
I'm always a bit taken back when visiting the toilet at clubs and some restaurants when I'm in the UK as there's a gentleman sitting by the sink handing out towels and stuff. Very strange and utterly useless. Not sure if he's paid by the club or lives of tip, but it makes me really uncomfortable. I just want to take a piss and wash my hands, not have an awkward conversation with a towel handler.
I've always understood that this person's actual job was making sure that no-one was taking drugs in / vandalizing / doing anything illegal in the bathrooms.
They're there so the owner of the club/restaurant can relax, not you.
If this were true, there wouldn't be so much emphases on tipping.
Right now, I feel like this guy is useless and I don't want to give him money and I feel bad about that, like by not paying him I'm calling him useless.
If it were for the owner, and that was clear, I'd feel great because I was making his job easier by not causing any trouble or mess, and on top of that, hey thanks for the towel!
I've never seen this in my life in the UK. There is a guy watching over the people in the toilets in the clubs near me, but you don't talk to him and he doesn't hand you anything. Even if he did hand you something, you don't have to have a conversation with him.
OTOH last time I was in St.Pancras there was a guy collecting the fees to use the washroom and keeping things tidied up. People in the US would be outraged to pay for using a bathroom under those circumstances.
Japan can be even worse. I’ve seen it at hotel seven when you’re eating at the hotel restaurant.
Really? Just about every club I've ever been in has this. Selling chewing gum, after shave ("no spray, no lay" etc). But they are there mainly to make sure people aren't doing drugs, or fall asleep on the toilet.
Public bathrooms don't clean themselves like private bathrooms. Particularly in high-volume places (large restaurants, pubs) it can get nasty very quickly. Think sex, drugs, throwing up, people passing out or going to sleep or just acting stupid with feces. Definitely not a useless job.
But it is one of those weird things that survives long past the point of sense, they should just be paid a wage and be employed rather than work on this weird charity-basis. It's a bit akin to waiters in the US working on tips, whereas the rest of the world just pays them a normal wage. The clubs bank on guys with 10 beers in em to both be drunk enough and close to bursting enough to pay for the service.
I did that gig at a county fair one season. You’re there to deter people from pissing on the floor and plundering the place. People behave bizarrely in certain situations.
The highlight of that experience was the drunk lady who stole a toilet lid in the men’s room.
I've seen this at airports that had seemingly small or poor quality luggage belts, and figured that their actual role was to help ensure the smooth running of things and stop the belt jamming up with too many bags.
Those signs say stop on the other side and are used in conjuction with someone on the other end of the construction holding up the opposite sign so that a single lane can be used to handle traffic in two directions. That job would need to be automated with a traffic light.
The system would also need to detect which direction the traffic was going. In morning rush hour, outbound would be much heaver than inbound (of your neighborhood) so it would typically be unidirectional.
They are common in Sweden for slower roads and streets. I’m quite certain they don’t count the cars, instead just leaving enough time even for slow cars to pass through.
That also breaks down when they need to fully stop traffic from both sides so a equipment can be moved. How do you tell the automated lights to stop everything automatically when those instances are irregular.
You press a button. I’m not joking either, they have a way to program them quickly for exactly this reason. Set them on a cycle, or turn them to manual.
I don't know about now, but when minimum wage was $4.75 those guys were making $20.00 an hour. It was a highly coveted job in some circles. They are starting to automate it with portable traffic lights though.
I was that guy as a kid, at least for road work. The role rotated through my crew while everyone else worked in the manhole or on the street. Part of the reason for it to be a human is to serve as a witness for the police when a distracted driver plows into the road crew. This was in the 1980s, I’m sure drivers pay much more attention today.
I agree, but driving while high is not at all safe. Sure, it's less bad than drinking, but it's still more dangerous than driving when sober (and rested). Accident rates have gone up since legalization. [0,1,2]
It depends on what you measure. Crashes are going up ever so slightly vs population growth, but fatalities per crash has astoundingly been reduced by about 70%, which is to say that you were more than 3x as likely to die in crash in 1980 vs 2011.
That's because we have better cars now which offer better protection for passengers and pedestrians: seat belts, air bags, "softer" bumpers, collision detection, etc.
I once saw a memorable setup on a fairly desolate piece of Queensland highway: There were three flagmen (as they are or were called Down Under) spaced over with a few hundred meters between them, each with a flag warning me to slow down, roadwork ahead. At the other end three others, of course, to take care of traffic in the opposite direction.
But here's the thing: There wasn't any roadwork in between. There had been, but everything was neatly packed away.
Then again, I've worked in public administration. Nothing will shock me.
I find the concept of having to have someone pump gas for you (by law) another strange example of a pointless job, I'm quite capable of pumping my own gas.
A Job's Guarantee is a real movement, and a reasonable idea for this reason. Not having a job puts you in a lower social caste - might as well have them doing SOMETHING. Even if it's not especially productive, the small positive affect is better than nothing.
No. Eight hours of soul-crushing boredom every day keeps people in such jobs from doing... anything they want. Like learning stuff that might help them contribute to society in other ways (in a more useful job, maybe).
> Not having a job puts you in a lower social caste
This is a stupid societal expectation that should be fought rather than supported in the way you say.
> It leaves people lots of time to think of better jobs to get.
Thinking is a useful skill if and only if the job they aspire to is philosopher. For everything else (and for philosophers as well, really) you need training, and for that you need time.
You too may experience this "luxury" by going to pretty much any club (dance or strip) on pretty much any weekend in pretty much any major US city. The opulence wears off quickly, as it is made clear that you're expected to tip and all you want to do is wash your hands like a decent person.
Theu don’t just hand you towels, they usually have OTC type things if you’re feeling ill - you’ll never be more thankful for them until it happens to you when clubbing
With wet hands, though, or damp pants, which is not a great look in either club environ.
I would just simply refuse to go to such places, but I've only ever gone at the strong insistence of friends and perhaps the insistence some strong drink.
Perhaps a real-life hack could be to bring sanitizer gel.
Also I have to imagine it cuts down on whatever the hell people are doing in unattended bathrooms where every bodily fluid ends up on every possible surface at some point.
I was also thinking exactly this during my couple of years in Japan - that having a huge amount of "bullshit jobs" is one way of keeping unemployment low in an increasingly automated economy where growth is stagnating.
In an economy where having a job (or somehow having attained large sums of money because of luck/previous endeavors) is necessary to not be an outcast, this is one way of mitigating this or at least pushing the larger problem forward. We would very likely have a huge crisis if all bullshit jobs were to disappear overnight.
An economy can not be increasingly automated and increasingly stagnant. It’s one or the other. In the USA the economy has been fairly stagnant since 1973 because the post war boom ended in 1973. The move to automation also collapsed in 1973. Please see productivity trends here:
You can control what years are shown on that page. I sugggest you look at 1950 to 2018. Although the data is noisy, you can see it has declined. Also note that the era of occasional double digits advances ended decades ago. The 14% in 1956 and the 12% in 1971 have never repeated this side of 1973.
The economy is stagnant because the trend toward automation has died out. Although people in tech keep predicting a robot revolution, there is no evidence of it in the productivity numbers.
This is the same feeling I have when visiting the us. Remember coming into a Starbucks staffed by 5 people but only one doing something. At an airport there was a bunch of people whose job was to make sure I had my passport open prior to going through security. And so on and so on. It might just be my cultural shock though when going there. When you go to a different country you sometimes pick up 'strangeness' and generalise it to the whole country...
That's really interesting. I've drawn another more superficial Japan comparison: Japanese economic stagnation since the 1980s. I've been predicting for a while that we are headed for "planet Japan": perpetually low interest rates and not much actual growth.
What ended the era you describe? Contact with the outside world? I've also thought for a long time that space migration is the only real hope for the human race to avoid permanent stagnation and eventual decline.
Perry (US) sailed a fleet into Tokyo Bay and threatened to destroy the city if the samurai government didn’t open trade with the US (1850s).
Fearing domination by western powers (cf. China) the Japanese reformed their society and economy based on western empires (1868) and within 40 years was able to soundly defeat Russia in a war (1905).
This is very similar to the situation that caused the Swiss to become the mercenaries of Europe. If you were the second son, you weren't going to inherit the farm and thus in a resource-poor country like Switzerland of the Middle Ages, your best choice was to go abroad and find some feudal lord putting together an army. Thus you became a "freelance" and hopefully found riches. I've always thought Machiavelli's dislike of mercenaries was poorly placed, as after all they were simply following the economic incentives.
Primogeniture was pretty common in the middle ages in Europe. I've read arguments that it's a big reason why the Normans basically went out conquering England, the Mediterranean, etc.
Primogeniture doesn't really set in until the High Middle Ages, and even then, there was still a fair amount of splitting inheritance up among sons (that's why the Holy Roman Empire consisted of so many small states: some of the duchies were given to splitting up to give to second and third sons).
The Norse themselves still tended to follow partitioning laws, at least until the Scandinavian kingdoms started to coalesce. The repeated invasions of England between Ethelred the Unready and the final conquest of William the Bastard were not driven by second sons needing kingdoms for themselves, it was driven by England having the best tax base in the North Sea but high political stability, as well as the dying out of family lines.
Key point about the latter: when Edward the Confessor died without issue, the claims to the English throne were:
* Edward's brother-in-law and most powerful vassal, Harold Godwinson (son of the person who put Edward on the throne in the first place)
* William, the bastard son of Edward's maternal cousin. Bolstered by "when he was staying over when he was young, he totally promised me the throne when he died."
* Harald Hardrada, whose claim is "Cnut was King of England. He died, so his claim passed to Harthacnut. Harthacnut and Magnus made an agreement that, should one die without issue, the other would inherit his lands. Harthacnut died without issue, so Magnus should have been King of England. Magnus died without issue, so his claim winds its way back to me, his father's half-brother by way of mother."
Different times, social customs and norms. Generally they would have been trained in combat and warfare and not as merchants or craftsmen, which at the time were considered lower in the class hierarchy then the 2nd son of a lord or knight.
In essence him being a crafts-person or merchant would have been looked down on by everyone.
It would have been unthinkable, in a lot of history, for a nobleman to become a merchant or a craftsman. Not just "people think you're weird," but like your family and friends would disown you and your potential customers would all think you're insane and you'd have no way to learn the job anyway because no commoner would dare take you as an apprentice. The modern Western world has no analog for how deep the noble/commoner divide was.
Third sons wouldn't starve to death in any case, but they would rattle around the family lands making a nuisance of themselves and borrowing money from Dad. Noble families got some income from their tenants' taxes, generally, but it wasn't always enough to maintain yourself in high style.
In some times/places, noblemen could get involved in trade, but that would mean funding other people's endeavors, not becoming merchants themselves. And sometimes even that was restricted or frowned upon.
This is supposedly one of the ways the crescent got on the South Carolina state flag.
Under French heraldry, it indicates a third son (when they bothered to use cadency on their coats of arms). Since his chances of inheriting the family lands & fortune were low, many of them set out for Charleston to seek their fortune, following the southern branch of the Huguenots.
I think Machiavelli's was worried that the mercs would take over. Which is effectively happened in India princes and kings hiring foreign mercs from France and Britain.
Machiavelli wasn't just "worried"; he'd seen it be attempted (sometimes successfully). Facino Cane, Vitellozzo Vitelli, and famously Francesco Sforza. (Often this would happen on the death of the previous hereditary ruler, or through taking independent control of territories conquered in an employer's name.)
Slave-warriors in the name only though. They were literally one of the most powerful classes in the entirety of the empire for many centuries, after the dynasty and the dirigents themselves.
Sure, but they were not mercenaries. They did not enroll, but were taken from their families in occupied lands as small children, raised and educated as warriors, and the only career option they had, and family they knew of is the army.
Certainly. I just wanted to clarify what "slave-warrior" meant in this context, because in itself the word makes me think of actual slaves living in misery and getting thrown onto enemies to keep them busy getting killed. Originally janissaries were taken forcefully, but the careers they made, many families bribed the collectors to pick their children, and later, muslims too forced the govenrment to make the concession of accepting their children into janissary "ocak"s. Not only, but janissaries started getting families (forbidden initially), and making their children janissaries too, and thus the corruption of the janissaries. Also, janissaries were not mere warriors. They took part in many activities and had many responsabilities in peace time. E.g. the firemen of Constantinople were janissaries. They were also the ruling elite in some remote parts of the empire.
BTW while "taken from their families" is correct, many kept ties with the families. The Sokollu dynasty of grand viziers who practically ruled the empire for decades were taken the same way, but the first of Sokollus, Mehmen Sokollu, was not only able to pass on his position to his relatives, he re-established the Serbian Orthodox Church and got his brother to become its patriarch. We can discuss the humanitarian aspects of this, but practically, these people are not slaves at all; in fact, thinking that these people were slaves is downplaying what a disaster actual slavery is.
I am living in Serbia and, although you are right about Mehtmet-Pasha Sokolovic (Sokollu), it was certainly not the norm. It is difficult to judge different times from the modern perspective, but the actual term that is used for the period of Serbian history from the 14th to 19th century is "Turkish enslavement". Whether it is worse to live as a Christian "raya" under Ottomans or a serf under Christian kings is maybe open to discussion, but no one here consider that time as a glorious time of the opportunity for Serbian/Christian culture here. Quite the opposite, it stagnated the whole Balkan region from one of the centers of European culture to the backwaters.
While I will not dispute the Empire did cause all its region to become stagnant and backwards in comparison to Renaissance and post-Renaissance Europe (because that's an indisputable fact), both you as a Serb and I as a Turk should be very careful and sceptic with regards to national historical narratives of our respective countries, because they are infested with lies and misrepresentations, like in all over what was Ottoman territory in Asia Minor and the Balkans. The shitshow that 19th century through WWI was in this region has produced the worst incarnations of nationalist states that have caused the bloodiest of massacres and the worst of baseless yet pertinent illusions. If I return to the actual topic, while I do agree that the Ottoman Empire was not a time of glory for the Eastern Christians, and that we all can be glad that it does not exist any longer, most of that time was way better than most national narratives represent it, including that of Turkey up until quite recently (now there's a wave of neo-Ottomanism here, based on anachronic and nationalistic illusions on what the empire was; before, the view of the Empire was not much different here that what you describe).
My comment was mentioned to highlight that in many practical ways, the Christian population was practically enslaved to the Muslim overlords (regardless whether them being "real" Turks, or, more commonly, local converts, or even Janissaries). Much more than a Christian serfdom was a lightweight variation on slavery.
Christian population as a whole had very little to choose whether their children will be taken away and become Janssaries, at least until late times, and once taken away, those people had very little influence about their career choices. They were slaves in all practical ways the slavery means. For some exceptions, that slavery turned out to lead to high positions (like Sokollu) but, on the other hand, if the subject population retained their independence, talented people like Sokollu might have had opportunity to build up their local communities/states, instead of conquering the world for Ottoman sultans? :)
PS. I am personally an atheist, so I do not tend to look at the things here from the Christianity: right; Islam: wrong perspective.
We disagree at the definition of what slavery is. My definition of it is complete subordination to some masters, with no rights and in an inhumane situation (e.g. Afro-American slavery). Your definition seems to be that it is any sort of subjugation to some foreign powers. Even the fact that almost all businesses in the Empire were run by Christians prove, with my definition, that the situation was not that of enslavement, but instead that of imperial dominance. According to your definition, almost all imperial rule since Hittites necessarily include some sort of mass enslavement (which is not totally unagreable, but IMHO probably not a very useful way to assess history). I guess we can safely disagree there, as both definitions can be correct, depending on the viewpoint. Apart from that, we also agree on being atheists, as I can say I'm one too (I'm also of the opinion that "nation" is a useless and perilous abstaction, BTW, which means I'm not getting at this from a nationalistic PoW).
Serbian (and other smaller nations) in Austria-Hungary were under what you would call imperial dominance. In Ottoman Turkey, it was definitely much heavier. In many ways, local Christian population in Balkans was literally enslaved. That's one of the reasons that large part of Serbian population collectively fled en masse from old Serbia to then Austria-Hungary in 16th century, and left a literally empty countryside, which was later re-populated by Serbian and Albanian population from even poorer mountainous areas.
I mean, finding cases of African American slaves that lived and worked as cooks or home attendants, or nannies, or whatever easier jobs were available in the South, in addition to much harder cotton picking would not be an argument that those people were not enslaved. The fact that one does not literally carry chains the whole day does not mean that he is not a slave, if the owner can literally decide on the life and death, without much consequence.
If we talk about imperial dominance in Ottoman Balkans, I would accept that local Muslim population (largely converts) lived under imperial dominance. Christian peasants - much, much heavier.
> Machiavelli's dislike of mercenaries was poorly placed, as after all they were simply following the economic incentives.
That is part of the reason he did not like them, their loyalty was bought and the "prince" who used them did not have any other leverage. It is difficult to win and then govern with mercenaries as the protectors of the kingdom. A long standing mercenary army does not convey legitimacy, and when disbanded there are issues of proper resettlement and worry about a rival acquiring their service.
This reminds me of an entry level Business Japanese class I took many years ago from Peter Firkola at the University of Hokkaido, except as applied to modern day Japan. My memory is a little fuzzy about the specifics, but the following is the main gist of it.
Basically the Japanese government funds a large number of "pointless" projects, such as freeways to nowhere, large sea-facing cement walls, or things like subsidizing construction companies and the like (this is why you'll see 6 people standing around a hole in the ground, 3 "bosses" doing absolutely nothing, 2 of them old men flagging traffic, 1 person doing the actual digging). This is how Japan manages to keep their unemployment rate low, and thus keep money moving through the economy - by making sure people are able to obtain a job, even if it's useless or redundant.
At the top of it all you have the massive Zaibatsu (big conglomerates) which fund the lower level companies under their umbrella which in turn pay these meager salaries and keep people employed, typically as some kind of tax write off and the side benefits of having all of these various companies at their disposal (concrete, construction, real estate, etc).
The bottom of the system is incredibly inefficient, but it helps make sure that a bare minimum quality of life is available for people willing to try to get any old job.
"The bottom of the system is incredibly inefficient, but it helps make sure that a bare minimum quality of life is available for people willing to try to get any old job."
Efficiency should be measured against the goal of the system.
If the goal is to prevent the society from tearing itself apart then perhaps this is fairly efficient.
If the goal is to ma
The Japanese invasions of Korea (1592–98) was largely caused by too many unemployed samurai warriors, who were largely out of jobs as peace spread in Japan. Toyotomi Hideyoshi, de facto ruler of Japan, needed to prevent disturbances by unemployed samurais and result was invasion of Korea. It's not the only reason, but a major one.
The scale of the war was massive. Japan alone brought a force of 158,800 in 1st invasion of 1592. In the 2nd invasion of 1597–98, Japan again brought similar number of troops.
For comparison in the Long Turkish War or Thirteen Years' War which was between 1593 to 1606, Ottoman Empire had 160,000–180,000 men.
Ming Dynasty sent 50,000 men to aid Korea, and some say this started the decline of Ming Dynasty.
One really great book I recommend for anyone wanting to learn about this war is
"The Imjin War: Japan's Sixteenth-Century Invasion of Korea and Attempt to Conquer China
August 12, 2014" by Samuel Hawley.
Some interesting tidbits from the book:
1. This war was the first time a large group of Christians (not Western but Japanese Christians) set foot in Korea. Of the 12 (?) forces commanded by different warlords, 2 or 3 had large number of Christians. And these were first Christians to set foot in Korea.
2. Chosun Dynasty court maintained the Annals of the Joseon Dynasty (also known as The True Record of the Joseon Dynasty), annual records of the Joseon Dynasty of Korea. They were kept from 1413 to 1865. The annals, or sillok, comprise 1,893 volumes and are thought to cover the longest continual period of a single dynasty in the world.
Four copies of the records were kept in geographically separate area within Chosun. However during the Imjin War, 3 of the 4 were burned down by Japanese forces. The Imjin War book talks about how the last set of copy was being transported in numerous, lumbering carts pulled by ox to keep it out of marauding Japanese forces. The convoy was in a village when Japanese forces caught up. The convoy had not enough troops to resist. They then faked it to look like the village held more Korean troops than actual, by using extra flags and other camouflage. Japanese forces stayed away and this allowed the last backup of 4 backups to survive.
This tidgit was extra interesting to me for following:
1) Faking it till making it.
2) how 4 sets of backup was just barely enough.
The Japanese nearly invaded Korea again in 1873, funnily enough, for the same reason. Saigo Takamori saw it as an opportunity for the thousands of newly-unseated samurai to find honourable work (or death). When the government failed to take Toyotomi's lesson and refused, he revolted instead and found an end for the samurai at Shiroyama.
Tokugawa era had lasting peace partly because of these bullshit jobs. It was a way to build institutions that kept 300 regional daimyos and people who trained weapons in check.
Japanese developed clever formal court system (Sankin-kotai "alternate attendance") where half of the daimyos were kept hostage in the capital city at all times. Spend year in your own lands surrounded by your own men, one year as hostage in the capital that was under the control of the shogun. If daimio left the capital, his wife and heir were kept as hostages. All these daimios and their close families needed something to do to make their life meaningful. Same applied to their underlings.
King Louis XIV had similar system for the same reasons. Nobles had to keep hostage in his palace at Versailles and they needed things to do. The court system developed bullshit jobs for nobles, like helping him into the bed or taking part of the party. Everyone was given a role to play.
Thanks, I forgot to mention sankin-kotai. It was also set up as a way to prevent the daimyos from amassing enough money to build up an army - they were supposed to spend lavishly along the entire route between their residences and Edo.
I'm reminded of the British royal court post "groom of the stool". The groom of the stool was literally the guy who wiped the King's ass. It was a highly coveted position, as you had private audience with the king during his most intimate moments.
In the US, I think it largely stems from our individualistic natures. Our fierce independence comes at a cost to the greater community; we often don't interact, and in the worst case outright loathe, our neighbors. People would rather bitch on NextDoor about a loud party down the block instead of confronting them directly about it. We solve disputes not by working it out with the other party, but with subpoenas. Public jobs are low-paying and staffed with people who couldn't find jobs in the private sector, resulting in little incentive to do more than the absolute minimum. Many well-meaning government initiatives aimed to benefit the greater good are met with intense suspicion (your NIMBYs). Companies don't see offering jobs as enriching communities, but rather bestowing saintly privileges that those plebians better be thankful for. They're decked with such ridiculous liability clauses that the case of the carpenter in the story is not an exception, but the norm.
That was somewhat of a rant, and I don't really have any kind of solution to all of it. America is several thousand tragedies of the commons, from a neighbor-to-neighbor level all the way up to the federal government.
I have to say I don't understand many things about your comment, so I'd be glad if you were to clear them for me.
1) You blame your "individualistic natures" for the appearance of pointless jobs. Now, I haven't lived in the US, but that seems odd to me. I live in Romania, a society that is profoundly focused on the community, and the abundance of pointless jobs, particularly in the communistic years (communism being a profoundly anti-individualistic ideology) was absolutely staggering.
It just seems to me pretty self-evident that, as you move the focus from the individual, and his own happiness, he will find less motivation to do a meaningful job, and be contempt with a pointless, but simpler job.
I may be missing something important here, as, again, everything I know about American culture I know from the internet, so, if I am, please feel free to tell me.
2) "Public jobs are low-paying and staffed with people who couldn't find jobs in the private sector, resulting in little incentive to do more than the absolute minimum."
I'm afraid I just don't follow here. Wouldn't the low pay motivate people to work at pulling themselves out of those jobs and into the private sector?
3) You claim, quite rightly, that companies are not concerned with the public good, just with their survival and/or success, and consider jobs given out as "saintly privileges".
Firstly, all of the modern advances of mankind, from the industrial revolution, to the ridiculously cheap products provided by Rockefeller, Edison, and the like, to the supercomputers almost every human in the civilized world carries with him in his pocket, were made, not in the interest of "the greater community", but in those people/companies' self-interest.
Secondly, which worker do you think is more productive? The one that says "I am owed this job by my company"? Or the one that says, "My job is nothing but a privilege given onto me by the company, and I must prove every day that I deserve it?"
In any case, I'd be really grateful if you could explain these points to me. Thanks in advance!!
>I may be missing something important here, as, again, everything I know about American culture I know from the internet, so, if I am, please feel free to tell me.
Americans, as the saying does, live to work. Many tie their individual worth to the jobs they do. We invest a lot of ourselves into our jobs (those we care about anyway), and oftentimes the output doesn't equal the input.
>Wouldn't the low pay motivate people to work at pulling themselves out of those jobs and into the private sector?
You greatly overestimate the average person's drive to better themselves. Plenty are fine to get something that pays the bills and that's it.
>Secondly, which worker do you think is more productive?
You're going between 2 extremes that I didn't mention. My comment about companies offering jobs comes from the understanding of how positions (mainly in the white collar industry) used to be in the 50s/60s/70s vs. today. People that worked at the IBMs/RANDs/GMs/etc. of yester-decade worked there for decades. They were loyal to that company, almost to a fault. When they retired, they were given an expensive Omega with their name engraved in the back. Some even got pensions. Note this was also largely in the context of the pre-globalization age. Nowadays companies have no problem axing whole divisions to meet their bottom lines. They will go overseas. They have no problem leaving an area they've been at for decades. All the while, baby boomers continue to wonder out loud why their kids don't have the same earnings potential as they did. Not saying any of this is good or bad, it just is.
The goon category is interesting in a future world where AI has replaced most jobs, because it can employ an unlimited number of people. (Goon jobs exist to counterbalance other goon jobs. Militaries are the canonical example.)
Most jobs -- teachers, auto workers, plumbers, farmers -- have a natural ceiling on employment related to demand, but goon jobs don't because when one side hires more goons, the other side has to also. Militaries have created millions of jobs this way.
Goon jobs are not just blue-collar. A growing category of goon that allows unlimited highly paid professional job creation is inter-governmental lawyers. For example, the CA government is suing the EPA about vehicle emissions limits. Both sides can justify a big budget for hiring lawyers. Metropolitan areas like the Bay Area provide lots of opportunities for cities to sue each other, transit authorities, and the state. I don't see any upper limit to the number of jobs this can create.
All this is only a bad thing if you care about efficiency. If you let go of that axiom, there are unlimited jobs to be created.
But any suggestion of "mincome" or the like is met with such a harsh reaction... What, effectively, is the difference between goon-bloom and mincome? Is it just that one is too obviously a subsidy?
I honestly don't think it would be a bad thing if there were ten times as many lawyers, so that the cost of using the legal system became affordable to the vast majority of the people living under it.
I think it generalizes. Having a personal advocate will almost always yield a better personal solution than even a well intentioned bureaucrat. The law is complex, and the ability to afford a personal advocate is a very sharp privilege.
I think I've even seen this dynamic at play in international negotiations, with poorer countries being swamped by the experienced legal teams of larger countries, or being forced to effectively delegate their authority to an NGO that maintains a competitive legal team.
I talk to people about changing the world so work is optional, and people are really attached to the idea that everyone should work all the time. Our world is sufficiently productive (a trend I expect to continue rising) that we could offer a modest life to everyone regardless of how much they work. Or more conservatively, we could build a world where everyone has 8 weeks of vacation a year or could take 6 months off every few years.
I believe this is doable from a technical perspective and it’s the problem I’m trying to devote my life to. We ultimately need to build optional societies where people who choose to join can opt out of consumerism, a major driver of our need for endless work.
My vision is for systems of robotics that are totally open source (modifiable and royalty free) that can create the basic goods for survival. Then groups of people fund corporations with bylaws like a constitution that guarantee rights to shareholders. The machines provide for the people and excess goods are sold to a market to support growth of the community.
I think something like that in the future is one very useful aspect of a society where unnecessary work is over and regular people get to enjoy the benefits of modern productivity (instead of a small percentage of the population enjoying that while most people miss out).
But in general when I talk to people I find that the hardest idea for them to grasp is the idea that we could all work less and things wouldn’t collapse. We just need to alter the distribution of wealth so that everyone benefits.
> Our world is sufficiently productive (a trend I expect to continue rising) that we could offer a modest life to everyone regardless of how much they work.
i realize that the rest of your post details technological advancements that could create this condition (on an indefinite timeline), but you also seem to be saying that it is already possible today. i often see this sort of claim these days, and i always wonder why this is treated as self evident fact.
in 2015, the PPP adjusted GDP per capita over the entire planet was just under $16k [1]. this is only 125% of the US poverty line for a single person in the same year [2]. even if we could deliver this sum to every person in the world without losing production capacity and with no administrative cost, it hardly seems enough to provide what you mean by a "modest living" to everyone. much closer to mere subsistence in a developed nation.
I imagine it would start in the wealthier countries. US GDP per capita is $57.5k. I think if we had previously been focused on building a non-consumerist society, we could already have what I talk about today. That is, the problem is not technological but political and cultural. These efforts have not in my opinion really begun in earnest, but my hope is that robotics can be leveraged to rapidly replace the old human centric infrastructure with an automated one. Then it all just comes down to who owns the machines.
I recognize that in many places in the world, the development isn’t there. However the US can also play a part by ending the imperialism that helps keep these countries down.
Measure productivity different from money made. The point is that based on current production levels, we could provide everyone with sufficient food, decent housing and basic amenities like water and electricity.
The reason this doesnt happen is that those who sell the food, or build the housing are better off getting paying customers. This makes sense as a market, sellers are self-interested. It also leads to a certain kind of optimum. But certainly, as a matter of production, it is feasible to give everyone a modest life without needing to change productivity.
As a matter of social stability, it isn't feasible, but in some sense, that should be a denouncement of society.
GDP is an erroneous measure for what we're discussing and falls into the same recursive logic that is noted at the top of this comment chain a la broken window fallacy.
If you blow up a tank, and then build a new one, this is considered a net gain in GDP even though in reality there was a relative net loss of human labor.
> Our world is sufficiently productive (a trend I expect to continue rising) that we could offer a modest life to everyone regardless of how much they work.
I don't think this is true, because I think too large a fraction of the world's current productivity is supplied by people who would not produce if they didn't have to to earn a living.
> My vision is for systems of robotics that are totally open source (modifiable and royalty free) that can create the basic goods for survival.
This would fix the productivity problem, yes. But...
> Then groups of people fund corporations with bylaws like a constitution that guarantee rights to shareholders. The machines provide for the people and excess goods are sold to a market to support growth of the community.
This would throw away the whole thing. If there are open source machines that can create the basic goods for survival, the obvious thing to do is for every individual to just own one. There is no need for corporate ownership; in fact, corporate ownership undermines the whole thing, by giving some people an incentive to game the corporate system. If there is no such system, there's nothing to be gamed.
Hazing, austerity, and rigor. The military certainly cannot be accused of making soldiers more comfortable than taxpayers, and that’s what they really care about. Whether they’re deployed to economicically productive ends is more of an academic concern. On a gut level, the public needs to feel that they are not paid to be lazy, and the military delivers with overwhelming gusto.
Lawyers may similarly be accused of evil, but rarely laziness. There’s a general perception that they’ve passed through a crucible we wouldn’t survive (law school) and do work we couldn’t hack. Other bureaucrats, not so much.
>the folk receiving mincome will grow dissatisfied with their lot and militate for raises. negative feedback is unpleasant but necessary.
Close. What it does is reduces supply (fewer people working) while raising demand (people with more money in their pockets). This winds up causing inflation that erodes away the value of the minimum income. It's not even a hedonic treadmill, just an inflationary one.
A basic income guarantee can only ever work as temporary assistance or as a residualist stopgap for people on the fringes of society. If it's too widespread it ends up working against itself. A job guarantee increases supply (assuming you use the labor power productively) while keeping demand high, so that works against the inflation problem.
It's a tough balancing act though. You have to make sure the make-work is actually producing useful stuff or you'll have all the same problems as the basic income plus a bunch of random ditches dug. During Cultural Revolution in China cadres kind of engendered ecological catastrophes by creating bureaucratic agencies that would pointlessly clearcut forests for no reason. It's basically the paper-clip maximizing AI problem, only the intelligence isn't artificial.
Because at least in the goon economy you can compete in a hierarchy and be differentiated by status. "I have made X number of lawsuits/wars/security details successful which is more than Billy who only has Y number of successful lawsuits/wars/security details and that's why I should get a bonus and he shouldn't." sounds better than "I have exactly the same amount of income as Billy, but I should have more than he does because I think I'm better than Billy."
Yes, there are other ways to differentiate yourself in a social hierarchy, but finding a new and novel way to live is a lot harder than continuing to live the same way humans have lived for centuries.
Advertising is a very typical arms race. If you're the only one advertising, a small cheap ad is very effective. If your competitor is advertising you have to spend just as much just to tread water. If you spend more, it forces your competitors to spend more too.
It's not surprising that the modern Silicon Valley economy is built on advertising.
To give an example of that - my friend runs a one-man internet shop, selling niche items. His monthly profit is around (an equivalent of) $1-2k, while his Google invoice is $7k$-10k. So, essentially most of the fruits of his labor go to Google. And, according to him, if he tried spending less on advertising, he'd just vanish from the face of the Internet and customers would buy at his competitors.
I think it's interesting this category is simply defined as "goon". This really has been the definition of our entire existence as a species. We have competitors and if they take our resources we attempt to kill them off.
Even today the military encompasses the largest industry in the world. All of the technology we use has been rooted in the Military. Engineering Departments everywhere are subsidized by the Military more than any other department because they know anything you engineer has the potential as a "goon" application.
I don't think "goon" is going away anytime soon, it's a core part of our evolution as a species.
"The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to keep the man from touching the equipment."
The analogy to the army isn’t a very good one. It’s not a zero sum situation. A country can only devote so much of its GDP to the army, so the country with the biggest economy ends up with the biggest army. You don’t end up with 195 armies of equal size. The other thing that it misses is that the army is intentionally a vehicle for social mobility, and perhaps the most efficient one at that. The army is available to most people, where they can make a good career for themselves, or learn skills to take to the private sector, or move onto highly subsidized college. Dismissing it as bullshit is pretty narrow minded.
You're comparing the entire NK armed forces to one US branch. The entire USA armed forces is about 1.3M active personnel, with about 800K reserves. Which the US manages to achieve without conscription or slavery. If you also consider equipment and vehicles (which you absolutely should), then NK is not even remotely close. The number of naval ships, air crafts, tanks, armored combat vehicles, APCs, UAVs , etc... that the US has is so far ahead of any other country that it's not even worth trying to draw a comparison.
You've made an overstated example of a single outlier. There's outliers at the other end too, with both countries that are too dysfunctional to have any national security at all, and countries that simply ride the coattails of their stronger allies.
In any case, this is all entirely irrelevant to my point, which is that armed forces do contribute measurable value to society, and that the level of investment in them is typically proportional to the level of security a country requires.
And that number goes up to ~1.3M once you add in the Air Force, Navy and Marines. And as I've said, you're still only comparing numbers of service personnel, and ignoring capability, equipment and other resources. You're also ignoring the point I was making entirely.
the country with the biggest economy ends up with the biggest army.
That is demonstrably false, as shown in that Wikipedia article. In fact, there is barely any correlation between the size of a country’s economy and its army.
You're also ignoring the point I was making entirely.
Since your facts are wrong, there isn’t even a point to ignore
A job for one week was to move plastic roof boards from an automated saw on a pallet. They would save lots of money if they‘d place a robot there. In fact, the hole factory could have been automated.
I would think carefully about this. Elon Musk thought the same thing with Model 3 production, and then said “humans are underrated” and that they bought into automation too much, leading to production delays.
I saw a similar thing at a Mars chocolate factory in the 1990s: a lone worker with a conveyor belt of chocolate bars to one side, and a robot opening up boxes to the other. The worker was grabbing handfuls of chocolate bars and filling up the box that had been presented to him. When full, the box would head of down another conveyor belt and be automatically stacked on a palette ready for shipping.
Long-since automated I suspect, but at that point in time I presume that the human was cheaper and more reliable than the equivalent robot.
Aside: the equivalent job on the M&Ms production line _was_ being done by a robot, and required the packets of M&Ms to be neatly lined up in their boxes.
Keynes said that the government paying people to dig holes and fill them up was sufficient to escape a liquidity trap. He didn't actually advocate nonproductive work.
There's tons of actual productive work that could be done though. Cleaning trash from streets and parks, filling potholes, fixing sidewalks, pulling weeds, painting over graffiti. These things would would make everyone's days a little nicer.
Or even stuff that has real meaning. Rebuilding our crumbling highway system, laying fiber to the home for a next gen telecoms infrastructure. Just going back to school and getting information job skills. Child care. The list goes on and on without resorting to telephone handset cleaners.
For some reason, even when people acknowledge that there is an endless amount of busywork work that could be done, the suggestions are always meaningless fluff. Cleaning up the parks? Yeah, that's better then sitting around on your ass, watching Netflix for 8 hours, but there's so much more that people could do... Which would, of course, compete with private industry.
Cleaning trash from streets and parks, filling potholes, fixing sidewalks, pulling weeds, painting over graffiti. These things would would make everyone's days a little nicer.
Or even stuff that has real meaning
Why do you think that maintaining safe and beautiful cities has no real meaning? Someone needs to do it. Is this just elitism?
Kind of the opposite. The very idea of paying people to pull weeds on sidewalks screams of elitism when my state doesn't even have full day kindergarten, and some of the worst roads in the country (CO).
Oh I agree. High unemployment and a lot of bullshit jobs doesn't mean that we've run out of things to do. It just means that employment is being deliberately repressed and the economic system has been morphed into dysfunctional beast that serves a tiny number of privileged people.
"If the Treasury were to fill old bottles with banknotes, bury them at suitable depths in disused coal mines which are then filled up to the surface with town rubbish, and leave it private enterprise on well tried principles of laissez-faire to dig the notes up again (the right to do so being obtained, of course, by tendering for leases of the note-bearing territory), there need be no more unemployment and, with the help of the repercussions, the real income of the community, and its capital wealth also, would probably become a good deal greater than it actually is."
"It would indeed be better to build houses and the like"
It also follows on from a criticism of the economic utility of digging up gold and then burying it in the ground, which is an economic analog of digging holes and filling them in.
It won't be the first or the last time that quote gets taken out of context. Rich, white men with gold in the ground prefer your misinterpretation.
The frustrating thing is though: we have plenty of real demand
Social work, infrastructure repairs, mental health services.
But all the effort coalesces around BIG Corp. and Douche Co. needs first
Somehow we’re convinced that Bezos and Koch’s are more important than our neighbors
Some looney economists will tell you it’s proven in physics these people are just better
Ignoring the history of violent imperialism and collusion, and oppression that prevented and neutered whole swaths of people from catching up or getting ahead
My take is humans are ignorant animals who are emotionally captured by novelty and special interests keep peddling it to stoke that dopamine buzz
Then when you read in open access government documents they’ve been studying exactly that since WW1, and handing that research to unis who turned it into journalism, advertising, marketing, and management courses, you don’t go “oh deep state!” You go holy shit are we dumb. This is right in front of our faces, no conspiracy theory needed. Documented in official record, in plain view, how government has been dictating what we work on in the land of the free
The first topic that got me onto this pattern: was doing a research paper on thorium reactors since they were all buzzwordy a few years ago
In the 50s they were THE leading effort for energy
That all stopped when a Naval officer realized submarines could be equipped with quieter nuclear engines and weapons and be parked on the coast of whenever undetected
Thorium research was archived and we got to build unstable, by comparison, reactors as a result
And then you see it’s like that all over the historical record from the era
And you realize Bezos and Koch’s aren’t special. They were lucky to be alive now in a heavily curated system with a plain paper trail
I might be missing a lot of what you're saying, but say I worked for FAAMG - they just pay a lot more than what my neighbor could pay me. Even if repairing the neighbors deck or planting new trees in their yard or whatever might be "better" for society than submitting code for review on some feature. I guess I'm trying to understand what you're getting at because I think a lot of people don't believe Bezos or Koch are special, but they can simply pay them more.
> they just pay a lot more than what my neighbor could pay me
My wife is a pediatric occupational therapist specializing in early intervention. She gets paid bupkis by the children's hospital but working super interesting cases. She gets paid reasonably by the county for providing homecare to some kids who really need help as the county is the Medicaid payor of last resort and the kids really need help. She gets paid handsomely by private parties, but the work is often dull.
I'm not sure people work at the corps because the pay is better. I suspect many are attracted by some of the crazy problems on offer.
That’s the pragmatic acquiescence that makes them “special”.
I don’t mean to suggest people literally consider them special in thought (though there are folks that do believe wealthy folks are divine).
But an objective view, minus culture bias, of economic activity would show a lot of activity swirling into Bezos’s bank accounts
What are Bezos ideas? Selling books online. Today that seems rather quaint, so yeah it was a different thing in 199-whenever
But that’s it. Everything else has been curated around him — cloud and such, he didn’t invent shared compute time.
But the system inherently protects that now. Ownership is the root of power. And the public, through government, has taken on debt to prop up ownership of new ideas and achievements as described in the anecdote about nuclear subs
IBM refused to invest in transistor computers. So the government did. And gifted it to IBM for mass production.
There’s a paper trail to tell a narrative that shows Bezos, etc, got lucky to live now, after all this government invention
And now he just says work on cloud and homes for me with 25 toilets and that’s how it goes. He’s that special in the system that he can command such
But he’s not elected. He’s not divine. And the species has plenty of demands that aren’t related to what he needs.
I’m picking on Bezos, but to me the notion applies to any super rich “my great grandkids can retire on inheritance.”
Those are the conversations we should be having.
I’ve tutored kids in comm college, algebra and basic coding, who can absolutely build web apps and shit, but all their lives assume adulthood is pragmatic acquiescence their future
Not working with the neighbors they grew up knowing, but for elites a world away
Pragmatic acquiescence has us literally discussing the value of Bezos and the stock market and not opioid addiction, and mental health — where there is plenty of demand
That's just an oversimplification to avoid discussion. By that definition, a shortage is "real" even if it's been artificially caused by an interested party, because there's a whole bunch of people who really don't have access to whatever is in "shortage".
"All demand is real demand" is true only when the demand is not intentionally manipulated.
Except I like what Bezos does for me. He gets my capital because I get something in return. I'd much rather my money go to one of Bezos services than it be taken from me by the government to pay someone to fill holes. And filling holes doesn't create jobs, it sucks capital from places that do. Bezos on the other hand created whole new industries.
We have more than enough "capital". There is no shortage of (completely made up virtual) "money". There always is plenty of money for any worthwhile project - because it is created new for that new project. And if the economy is in trouble because "money!" the government steps in and through intermediaries creates a few trillion, see last crisis. So, please clarify for me, how does anything "suck away" capital from useful endeavors? According all that I read the last decade "money" is scrambling to find even half-decent places to invest itself.
The concept of money is an incredibly corrosive social and mental poison. It forces debates about ethics and social costs/benefits into a value system that's completely artificial and has very obvious and dangerous limitations.
I guess you’ve never heard of inflation. When the government prints more money it steals value from the money in my pocket. See Venezuela printing money for people to fill holes other people are digging instead of letting a free market allocate reaources.
I guess you don't know how money works in the modern economy. The majority of money is not created by commercial banks out of thin air, but not unreasonably (at least the actual concept is not unreasonable) - they can only do so when they have a "partner" (customer) willing to sign a debt agreement that they will pay back that amount, plus interest. So banks can't just create what they want.
The government GIVES you the money in the first place, you would be nothing living in a mud hut in the swamp without the "evil government". It's not "your" money to begin with. If you want to know what is "yours" go to the middle of the forest and live there, all the stone tools and grass huts you manage to build are all yours, no "stealing" from government. Everything you have you owe to luck of birth, that you were not born nearer the beginning of humanity but today. You live off of network effects of connected humanity in time and space. Don't give me that BS of "your money". Everything you are is 99.999999999999999999% NOT made by you.
By the way, we have had a HUGE increase in money over real economy for decades - and only very low inflation. Your ignorance is a bit too extreme for my taste.
Very low inflation nominally, according to a measure that does not factor in 1. Rent 2. Medical Expenses and Health Insurance 3. Education, stuff that matters more than the eggs and milk the CPI measures
However, digging a hole in the ground and then filling it up is horribly, soul crushingly demotivating.
Even if someone is working in a job that de facto amounts to doing just that, it should be covered up so that this fact isn't obvious and that a person can reasonably choose to ignore the truth and convince themselves that their job has some real value. Which is actually done, all kinds of internal propaganda, glorious mission statements, etc.
I think the downvotes are because the comment doesn't appear to be logical.
We have a lack of real productive jobs that makes a difference.
This results in the rise of the pointless job which is soul crushing.
The answer is not to just get a real productive job. Because the lack of those is the source of the problem.
It would be like if someone said they don't want to have chemotherapy because its painful. And you said... easy, if you don't want chemotherapy don't get cancer.
> digging a hole in the ground and then filling it up is horribly, soul crushingly demotivating.
Europe can start reconstructing all the ruins of castles, monasteries and cathedrals; for example Napoleon destroyed quite a lot of them and most didn't recover. Or just tear down all the ugly buildings built between 50s-70s when architects were out of whack like some German cities are doing right now (Frankfurt) and replace them with some 3D printed aesthetically pleasing ones. Should be a plenty of work and those jobs could be opposite of soul crushing.
We've got a lot of holes that need to be dug anyway. The state of infrastructure in the US is pretty deplorable in some places. You could keep a few million people busy rebuilding roads and bridges that are crumbling away - more if you leaned on manpower instead of machinery.
I'd like to see something like a reincarnation of the CCC. There's so much relatively unskilled labor out there that goes undone.
> However, digging a hole in the ground and then filling it up is horribly, soul crushingly demotivating.
Further, being forced to spend time doing that makes it much harder to gain skills for, or search for, another job.
Make-work non-training jobs (though ideally real beneficial work that just has market value less than what is paid by government for it rather than obvious waste of effort) may be a same policy solution to short-term private sector dislocation where demand for work with basically-similar skill profile has dropped but is expected to rebound, but beyond that it is fairly obvious counterproductive and a trap that impedes the ability of a labor force to adapt to new needs compared to conventional means-tested welfare, which itself is not very good at that (which is one of the motivations for UBI.)
It is much more intellectually challenging to address the inefficiencies in the economic system by devising a global model with regard to the available resources, manpower and population needs. Call it a planned economy if you will. People should vote what the system must produce, while considering the pollution and exhaustion of finite resources.
The current capitalist system is all about the individual self interest of each playing agent (company). That probably worked in the past in loosely-populated areas with lots of resources, but doesn't look like it is the way for the future.
People already vote for what the system must produce with their money, that's the basis of capitalist supply & demand. How can you force people to consider pollution and exhaustion of finite resources? People as a whole suck at considering things, that's why we make all kinds of institutions to work around it like representative democracy and legal systems.
We are in a planned economy. Just not directly government planned. There are very few industries in the US that consist of free economic agents.
I’d hazard to guess that most postwar US economic activity was indirectly fueled by government policy, and it has shifted in some ways to large cartels.
This is another argument in favor of universal income. Bullshit jobs is one of consequences of progress, low cost goods, food and comfort. With increasing automation it’s going to be get incrementally harder to find bullshit jobs for people. until society understands that not everyone can and have to be employed.
The opposite is true. At some point in the past, elevator operators served a useful function, since elevators were hard to operate. Today, even the existence of automation (i.e. accessible elevator UI) has not completely driven the elevator operator extinct, but has transmuted his job into bullshit. Same goes for gas pump improvements (I suppose we can thank New Jersey and until recently Oregon). The entire "Flunkies" category seems to exist only because of the existence of automation.
Until a few months ago, it was illegal to pump your own gas in Oregon--they had to have an attendant at every station to do it for you. They recently made it optional, at least for rural stations.
Do-nothing jobs may be a problem, but do they outnumber jobs that exist to support, sustain and inflict a system that is not user-friendly? For example:
How big is the 'security' industry (include 'national security')?
What percent of the workers at the health clinic you visit are there to control, limit, and ration the access to medical care?
Isn't the entire legal system there to sustain the power of the powerful?
Isn't the educational establishment designed to support a hierarchical society in which the highly-educated are few, highly-paid and comfortable, and the rest are not?
1) Very big, because it includes the whole military intelligence complex in your definition.
2) About 20 hired specifically for this purpose. Admins, doctor and nurse managers, a few receptionists, a few ministers.
3) Not all, not even most of it. Plenty of civil, criminal and driving cases. These are very common. The patent and copyright lawyers are the minority...
4) Not in principle. In practice there are such pathologies, especially in countries without good public higher education.
In principle the education system is to supply a source of educated and intelligent workers for complex jobs, including lower levels for less demanding ones.
The trouble begins when rich and powerful segregate themselves into educational sinecures.
UBI will lead to societal degeneration. Prices of essential services and goods would skyrocket; people would lose direction and the small amount of meaning they had.
I call UBI gay-space-communism because it suggests that all human beings are capable of handling themselves outside of employment and daily routine. They are not. The market creates this drive in people, and if you remove it, people will degenerate fast.
Because freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.
There are tons of people who think like the poster above, that we need to control people by not letting them have enough earnings or whatever to be free and making choices for themselves. That belief is what is really scary to me.
It’s the same sort of logic that claims religion — specifically, the threat of hell— is necessary to prevent civilization from falling into savagery... ignoring the fact that most religions don’t have a concept of hell, and many predominately secular societies do just fine.
> Prices of essential services and goods would skyrocket
Base the UBI on multiple economic indicators such as the prices of essential services and goods, add more money to the money supply as needed.
> Opioids, UBI, and free-love for everyone. Yikes.
So a lot of people live a simple life on the basic income and hang out getting stoned and screwing. Oh no!
What's your hobby? What would you be doing if you didn't have to work for a living? Would you spend all your time getting stoned and doing the social maneuvering necessary to get laid on a regular basis? Or would you do something else with your time? Work on that programming project that's been on the back burner while you paid the bills, draw comics, join a comedy troupe, brew mead, figure out a way to automate something that drives you crazy, pick up the guitar you put down in favor of a sensible day job and start making music again... or whatever.
Personally, when I had a few years free from needing to work for someone else, I mostly spent them drawing a weird sci-fi comic using the skills I'd developed while training for the animation industry.
(The usual phrase, by the way, is "fully automated gay luxury space communism".)
> Prices of essential services and goods would skyrocket
If you do a constant-value UBI and set the value too high, yes, that would happen in a positive feedback loop, but that's why UBI should be tied to a revenue stream with a value set by splitting the revenue stream with a reserve cushion to build a fund to allow preserving benefits in short-term revenue decline.
> people would lose direction
I don't see a credible argument for that replacing status quo means-tested social support with UBI would cause this, and indeed much of the motivation for UBI is to remove adverse incentives in present benefit programs that manifestly do produce this effect.
> I call UBI gay-space-communism
Which is dumb, because it has nothing to do with homosexuality or outer space or, as it retains private property, Communism.
> suggests that all human beings are capable of handling themselves outside of employment and daily routine.
No, it doesn't, not that that would justify your ludicrous label even if that was true.
Any value of UBI higher than 0 creates positive feedback loop:
1. government announces UBI
2. retailers, in anticipation of higher demand raise prices.
3. UBI beneficiaries see that they cannot buy as many goods as they want/need so they start demanding more money.
4. government see that they have more tax revenue due to higher retail sales (and the price raise from step 2) so it easily agrees to increase UBI amount.
Do you think other financial aid formsfunded with tax money have this effect too? Or do you think UBI is qualitatively different because all taxpayers get it?
I think you can be cured of the latter if you consider the fact that it's exactly equivalent to a negative income tax system.
When I look at a downtown with tall buildings I always think about what the fuck people are doing in those buildings. I get the sense that more and more people are hired to simply report on a team. That report goes up one level and its part of another team report (just representing more people). Then that report goes up... and it continues for as many levels of bureaucracy that the company decided was necessary.
Most of this falls directly in the category of "not my problem" that is eating everyone's soul. Because more and more people subscribing to "not my problem" we are creating perfect systems that need bureaucracy. The opposite structure is more people doing the hands-on-work (that is reported on) and more of those people being involved directly in decisions and are stakeholders on firing. Everyone has a sense of how much work is being done and who the slackers are so there is no more a need for upward reporting and downward decisions.
Now the argument being made is that AI is replacing jobs so you could say - well this upward reporting job is all that we have left! So I say boo-fuck to that. We don't have spaceships going into space on a daily basis, we don't recycle 100% of what can be recycled, we don't have clean freeways, we don't have technology that perfects our pollution, we don't have AI.... so there are A FUCK TON amount of work to be done, but no one wants to do it because of our "not my problem" attitude.
Heck if what we're facing is a training problem, then heck, I see a hell of a lot of jobs right there!
In some developing countries, there's an unofficial social contract that the wealthy should employ as many people as possible, even if they need to make pointless jobs. A company I worked for had a remote office in India that employed people to hand out paper towels in the bathrooms.
I’m a little curious as to why this comment, of all comments, has attracted downvotes. Is there something about the comparison between these two types of bathroom attendant positions I’m overlooking? Genuinely curious
My brother does this. He makes about $300 per weekend, which supplements his income working in a call center. The real reason he's there is to stop people from trashing the bathroom and using drugs in the club.
It's a mostly free system. Why is someone paying someone to do these "pointless" jobs".
Hint: the answer is this that is bullshit. Surprisingly, companies like nothing more than accumulating money. Paying people to do nothing gets in the way of this goal and so generally it doesn't happen.
This doesn't mean everyone personally feels their job has value and it doesn't mean there aren't pointless jobs in a large corporate environment but as a systemic thing, valueless jobs aren't exactly our most pressing concern.
Not every value providing task in the world induces the person doing it to instantaneosly reach nirvana because it is so wonderfully fulfilling. Many jobs are mundane. It doesn't mean they are valueless. Why would someone be paying them to do it otherwise?
Only farming is absolutely necessary. Farming is down to about 2% in the US. You could cut that in half if people stopped ordering avocado toast and just ate oats. So, probably 99%.
What about plumbing or sanitation? Construction of shelter? Medical care? Firefighting? If those things aren't "necessary", it seems difficult to argue that farming itself even is necessary.
You might want to adjust the figure to account for clothing/minimal construction work for shelter - both are definitely fundamental in most parts of the US. One might also wish to add in a minimally functional healthcare system to ensure a reasonably high average life expectancy.
Nevertheless, the point is still extremely valid; I would estimate around 95%.
Update: As in general it is easy to draw overly pessimistic conclusions from this (I have been affected by this myself),
it may be of use to point out that positive answers do exist for this issue. One of my personal favorites is the powerful, short book "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankl.
I work a very productive job with direct outputs. But my job still doesn't advance humanity forward. My company provides a solution for problems caused by other entities, but it isn't a solution to some fundamental problem. Some days I feel as if the job is pointless because, in the end, I'm just a duct taper, even if I'm duct taping for an entity that is outside of my organization.
If you take the concepts in this argument and expand it beyond just companies (which the author started to do when mentioning armed forces counted as goons), I think we would see a society that is already filled with useless jobs.
Incorrect. They're saying that the military is a "goon" type of job, in that it involves aggression, and you have to do it because others will plow over you otherwise. It has nothing to do with the character of soldiers. This same underlying logic also applies to corporate lawyers and advertisers.
Right, and therein lies the Guardian's stereotypical grad student reasoning: militaries only exist because of humanity's lack of enlightenment, and military service is therefore a job that "lacks positive value" and is "essentially manipulative and aggressive".
Even if you subscribe to the standard litany of lefty anti-person-in-uniform grudges, the notion that militaries around the world exist primarily to guard against other militaries is misguided. A much bigger motivating factor for the existence of large standing armies is the general desire of illiberal regimes, be they on the right or on the left, to keep the young male population (ie the backbone of a potential revolution) occupied on a daily basis.
> A much bigger motivating factor for the existence of large standing armies is the general desire of illiberal regimes, be they on the right or on the left, to keep the young male population (ie the backbone of a potential revolution) occupied on a daily basis.
Would you mind citing that or expanding on more depth? I'm curious as to your reasoning chain there and think it is an interesting critique of the article's classification.
It's a common practice throughout Africa, Asia, Latin America, and the Arab world (and Russia until recently). Compulsory military service for males at 18, for a varying amount of time but enough to a) make a tangible difference in the number of young guys loitering about because they have nothing to do in the bad economy; b) have a large internally deployable force to quell any unrest at a moment's notice; c) indoctrinate young men with the idea that being a man / being a patriot / being of good character means supporting the regime and its ideology (while also giving young men a group identity as a veteran of the armed forces loyal to the government).
Fighting a war with another country is not the reason most countries spend money on their armies that could be spent elsewhere.
A lot of people have pointless jobs, but it seems even more people have jobs that are actively contributing to the wanton destruction of our entire world. I suspect these are both symptoms of our elevation of capital to the status of universal good. This will only get worse as long as we continue to espouse the default view that people who "don't have a job" are useless moochers and people who have high paying jobs are valuable contributors to society.
The best minds of previous generations were fighting wars or leading battles. I personally do not think either of those activities is specifically better or worse.
Virtually all jobs in Western societies are bullshit jobs (as defined in the article). But you've alluded to the real reason such BS jobs exist -- to give people something to do and keep them occupied so they don't go out and fight wars. Sport fulfills the same purpose. Better people work in a cube all day and practise baseball after work than sit around on the UBI until they form some political party, take over the government, and go to war against another country for their plutonium mines.
There are plenty of bullshit jobs in the software industry.
Many things designers and graphics developers do is goon-ish. Design is mostly an arms race. Employees of big companies create new design languages and at some point the rest has to adapt or be left behind. Of course, marketing is 99% bullshit anyway, and that's where a good deal of the design goes.
I doubt games are more fun now than 10 years ago because graphics has gotten better. If anything, games from 10 years ago have gotten worse because we're used to more complex graphics.
Almost everybody here is a duct-taper. 95% of our time is spent dealing with technical debt. We're using decades old technology that was never designed to solve the problems we face now. Take the twitter password problem on the front page: This would've never happened had we just adopted a more sane approach to authentication. When you wait for hours on your windows updates, think of the poor souls who know that none of this is necessary but can't entangle the mess that makes this necessary (apparently). And think of the poor souls in testing who can't report the real bug that is a broken code architecture which makes automated or more fine-grained tests impossible.
It's a bit much to say design is goonish and an arms race. I'd argue the reason that Apple is the most valuable company in the world is mostly due to their design expertise.
You can make the same argument about software between companies being an arms race that competitors adapt to to or get left behind (see cloud, mobile, voice, etc.).
Well, from an evolutionary perspective there are successful fish who evolved suction cups on the top of their heads so they could both save their energy swimming and also eat the food scraps of the shark they are attached to.
Some would argue that this metaphor better describes finance industry professionals though.
I'm sorry, but this is completely ridiculous and flies in the face of economics and capitalism, and deserves to be called out. Remember that David Graeber is an anthropologist, not an economist.
Pointless jobs exist because of inefficiences. Someone higher up couldn't be bothered to automate it, and there isn't enough oversight of the budget. An entrenched interest (like a no-longer-needed union regulation) is too hard to fight. Etc.
But capitalism is the most marvelous machine for removing inefficiencies, and therefore removing pointless jobs. Why? Because the owner/capitalist will make more money when they're removed/automated. It's easy to say McDonald's cashiers have pointless jobs, and they're being replaced with kiosks. Or taxi drivers with driverless cars. The same way the original human "computers" were replaced by calculating machines. The process isn't perfect and certainly isn't instant, but it happens and is relentless.
Pointless jobs decrease over time. And trying to claim that they're rising, as Graeber does, is simply disingenuous and dishonest.
You are not allowed to speak positively of capitalism here. It is a messy system, far inferior to the more modern technocratic ways we should be following.
Yes, and the fact that capitalism created the conditions that allow people like the ones who pontificate on HN about the messiness of capitalism to exist at all should go completely unmentioned.
Author lost me on doorman. Doormen absolutely bring value and saying that doormen is bullshit job is the same as saying that waitress is a bullshit job - in the end customer is fully capable of bringing the food from the counter to his table on his own.
Doormen
Can accept packages when you are not in your apt (leaving outside is not an option in NY)
Can accept laundry delivery
Provide security by screening people out at the entrance
Virtually eliminate burglaries/theft
Can provide key to housecleaner/installer/plumber/etc
Keep parking spot in front of building available for short time use by residents (often semi-illegally)
Can help brining up heavy suitcases/bags to the apartment
Doormen absolutely provide value and apts in buildings with doormen sells for more than equivalent apartments with only intercall.
Getting paid to satisfy others' frivolous pursuits is the future of work. With more real-world work being automated away, we'd better hope there are jobs like "World of Warcraft Concierge" and "Sim City Colorist." All the "honest day's labor" jobs are evaporating.
If you are going by that definition of "wouldn't matter" then it probably holds for all movies. And lots of other enjoyable stuff. Not a very useful definition.
I'm not saying entertainment is meaningless, I'm merely objecting to the claim that "it has to get done." No, it doesn't. It's not mandatory, it's a luxury.
It's only as useless, as, say, the crew on a film, or even a highly-paid footballer. If these people didn't do their tiny part, the entertainment industry wouldn't rake in as much cash.
You are so right. I've been saying my whole life that if animators would just make their characters bald, the manhours we would recoup as a species would be truly transformative.
> Author lost me on doorman. Doormen absolutely bring value and saying that doormen is bullshit job is the same as saying that waitress is a bullshit job - in the end customer is fully capable of bringing the food from the counter to his table on his own.
Waitress is a bullshit job though, just like a butler. In a truly egalitarian society a job like that wouldn't exist. It's an artificial construct that can be pretty annoying especially when you're waiting for your check for half an hour. :)
I'm a programmer working at a big-tech company. I make ~$350k/year, even though my job could be done equally well by a college intern. I only do ~2 hours of productive work in an average day. My previous jobs were far more interesting and challenging, and I had apparently done extremely well in my interviews. Hence why I got an offer with an extremely good compensation package.
However, the team that I go put into, is one of the slowest moving and least useful I've ever seen. I spent my first couple months trying to make things better, and be more productive - only to have my team-lead actively micromanage and stonewall me in order to bring my productivity down to a crawl. I tried talking to my manager about it, but they started blaming me personally every time I pointed out any ways of improving the way we do things.
Eventually, I stopped trying at all, did the best I could (~2 hours/day of productivity), and just zoned out the rest of the time. Apparently this has pleased my manager/team-lead, and everything has been smooth (boring) sailing ever since. It still boggles my mind that I'm getting paid $350k/year to essentially browse HN and post stuff like this all day.
Through my long career, I've notice virtually no correlation between my pay and the utility of my position. And indeed, I've had one or two jobs like yours. Sadly for my bank book, I can only stand being useless for relatively short stretches.
I still reminisce about my lowest paying job, my first. It was probably the most enjoyable and satisfying. It was also useful, though perhaps not at the top of that list.
It's annoying that so many useless jobs pay so much. But even worse that it's so hard to find a position where being useful is even a possibility.
My experience is similar. I look at it a lot like insurance policies. For instance, my company once had a service contract with a software company that cost about a million a year. One time I audited that service contract, and found that they'd used it exactly ONCE the entire. A million dollar phone call.
But they're not going to cancel the contract, because they want the support in case they need it.
> I still reminisce about my lowest paying job, my first. It was probably the most enjoyable and satisfying.
Weird. I share this experience. My first tech job was really great, I was constantly doing interesting things, actively making things better for everybody all the time, really like all my colleagues, it was part time, and I made a pittance.
This is just a form of supply and demand. More people want to do $desirable_job or $satisfying_job (and there's plenty of overlap), so you don't have to pay them as much, because there's always another person in line to take the position.
“Passion” careers are a great example of this. Many people would gladly save the planet or do art for free, so the pay in arts and environmental protection is really low.
I don't think the theory implies it's the only effect on salaries, only that it's a factor.
Obviously when the workers have very few or no alternatives, the effect will be minimal.
But I know people who dropped out of college courses that provided a good chance of a middle-class income for a career that fulfilled them more, despite paying like crap. So the effect exists.
I doubt that top-paying jobs like CEO are undesirable to those people who have them as well as those who would like to have them. On the other hand all really shitty jobs pay nothing - that's true for hundreds of millions, maybe even billions of people worldwide. A >100k$ programmer office job in the US does not belong in the "shitty job" category, no matter how much someone complains online because they are bored while comfortably sitting in their chair waiting for the next big paycheck to arrive reliably.
That rule must have been made by one of those super-rich people grumbling about how unfair life treats them and how the government attempts to steal "their" money.
Top paying jobs like CEO are top paying because the supply of trusted people, who boards are willing to hand control over billions of assets to, is vanishingly small. Programming jobs are reasonably well paying because businesses are careful about who they hand their code over to, although not the extreme degree of CEO. And something like fry cook is low paying because those businesses are willing to hire just about anyone.
But we cannot completely discount the effects of desirability. If your employment options are fry cook or oil rig worker, most people would prefer fry cook and thus oil rig worker has considerably higher wages due to the aversion to the job, and therefore reduction in supply at the price point of fry cook. Of course, increased compensation can prompt people to look in alternative directions.
CEO pay is not just supply and demand. You cannot even tell what "supply" even is, because "CEO supply" is nothing that can be well defined. You could make a lot of people CEO from the 2nd and 3rd ranks who also have the experience and knowledge, or you can seek only people who already have been CEOs - which does not guarantee anything at all, because CEO success depends a lot on context and circumstances. CEO supply is extremely flexible based on psychology for one (who you are willing to accept for the role is extremely subjective and based on personal preferences), and can also very easily be changed through actions (whom do you give a chance to learn to lead, and how). So the possible "supply" of CEOs is decided on a whim to a large degree, based on subjectivity (even if it's attempted to be hidden by some "thorough search" - which uses those same subjective criteria and selection heuristics).
You misuse economic theory by simply using it to make unsubstantiatable claims pretending that it somehow proves anything as long as you use the right magic words from economic thinking.
It’s pretty easy to figure out. Typically there will be exactly one person the board is willing to trust. It doesn’t matter how they reached that conclusion.
Being the only person in the world deemed suitable for the task gives incredible leverage when demand is near infinite.
> You misuse economic theory by simply using it to make unsubstantiatable claims
It would appear that you’re simply overthinking this. We’re talking about basic supply and demand, not a complex economic theory. It is simply an observation of what people agree to. We call it basic because it doesn’t represent anything more.
I refer to what was written above. The only "thinking" I can see on your side is how to prolong a non-argument - you just throw out random stuff, going for quantity and endless repetition, but there is not a coherent recognizable thought. Nice try, but I'd say after your first reply it turned into trolling. You are pretty good at saying a lot without saying anything at all though, I give you that much.
If you don't understand my explanation you are welcome to ask questions. I also encourage you to refer to other sources on the internet that go into more detail that I ever could in a short comment. You don't have to assume someone is a troll just because a comment isn't perfectly eloquent.
CEO pay isn't "basic supply and demand" unless you generalize the concept to such an extent that it becomes worthless.
Board Member: "Why are you paying your brother $500k to be your assistant?. Surely an assistant shouldn't make that much money."
CEO: "I really want my brother to do it, and since I only have 1 brother it's just basic supply and demand."
You can basically frame any human interaction in terms of supply and demand, but it's not really useful to do so. And it's certainly not what most of us have in mind when we talk about "basic supply and demand".
> unless you generalize the concept to such an extent that it becomes worthless.
Worthless in what way? Supply and demand is far easier to write than this long-winded explanation I have ended up giving to explain what it means. That seems well worthwhile, at least when in company who understand the meaning of the term. It is not like it is some grand unified theory of economics, if that is what you were hoping for.
> You can basically frame any human interaction in terms of supply and demand
Absolutely. All interaction has some cost, and supply and demand observes the willingness of all parties to accept that cost. That is exactly what supply and demand is all about.
> And it's certainly not what most of us have in mind when we talk about "basic supply and demand"
What is it that most of you have in mind? Supply, by definition, is the quantity of a product available at any price. Demand, by definition, is the desire and willingness to pay a price. Supply and demand is simply the observation of both and how they interact with each other. I am honestly unsure of what else you could think it means?
As I continue my (relatively young as a 20-something year old) web development career, I occasionally look back at my KFC job I had during uni and end of school with great fondness.
I honestly really enjoyed that job - it was fun working with great people doing a job of the right level of complexity and mental stimulation.
In my career, I'd say the correlation is an inverse proportion. The more useful / needed I was the less I was paid and the other way around... It's curious. I'll have to put some thought into why this might be.
I was on $100K for doing a similar amount of depressingly simple or "easy" work, while being surrounded by people who felt or at least appeared stuck.
It seems like a dream but I also got really demotivated and my sharp skills quickly became stale and then one day I realised I didn't care enough to upskill again.
The job became more about appearance and saying the right things, showing your face in the right meetings, and claiming recognition for other people's work.
I've now shelved that career. The money wasn't worth the feeling of guilt or missing out. I think the hardest part was knowing I was getting paid double than people who worked 3X harder.
Which city? I'm in the midwest and would need that comp to relocate to SF or NY ;( didn't think it would actually be viable. Actually, if you have some time for some questions, can you PM me?
I guess I'll have to brush up on whiteboard interviews. It just seems goofy that 350k is normal! I'm a sr engineer in chicago, and thought there was no way I could command the salary needed to make COL worth it.
I think that's far from normal...if you look at any board of average senior level engineering salaries, even in Silicon Valley and even at the FAANG companies, it's nowhere near that.
Don't be so happy about it. I'm like you but 5 years in the future when it's time to look for a new job. At the beginning I was keeping my skills sharp, but after a while you become lazy. Especially when you see everyone around you not doing anything you sort of lose your motivation to do work.
Seems to me that you might be able to keep the twitch part of that, but as a creator rather than a consumer. Sometimes having an audience might make a difference, and sometimes it'll be of interest to others (e.g. Wintergatan Wednesdays on YouTube)
On a Monday I quit my job and gave my two week notice.
The next day my wife was fired.
The day after that, my old boss offered me a raise if I would stick around.
I did both jobs simultaneously for six months.
In my entire life nothing has been more lucrative than this. I've tried investing in stocks, bonds, and real estate. Nothing has been more lucrative than double-dipping.
The thing that's so bizarre, is that it also seemed to make me a better employee. I wasn't trying to be a scofflaw, I just kinda fell into it (due to my wife being fired). I found that things I learned from Job One made me better at Job Two, and vice versa.
I think a big part of the reason that this is, is because a lot of tech jobs are basically "human insurance policies." For instance, my employer paid me because I'm an expert in an obscure software program. So there weeks when I was busy as hell, but there were also weeks when I was basically there in case something broke.
I founded a forum on Reddit dedicated to this, it's called WWPGD. (A tip of the hat to Peter Gibbons from 'Office Space')
I'm assuming at least one job (or both) is remote-only? This would be a hilarious story if you somehow managed to hold two simultaneous 9-5 on-site jobs, in neighboring offices.
There was a story on here about exactly that a few years back. IIRC the guy was a network support guy or similar, so both jobs were mostly reactive and didn't require lots of meetings or presence.
It feels like you're missing a line somewhere in this - you talk about quitting your job, your wife getting fired, and your now-ex-boss offering you a raise to stick around, then start talking about "both jobs" without ever mentioning a new job.
Basically I handed in my resignation because I got a new job. The next day my wife lost her job. Then my OLD boss gave me a pay bump to stay at my OLD job.
So I did both jobs, the old and the new, simultaneously.
The initial plan was that I'd do it for a couple of weeks or a month. I was just trying to cover my wife's income until she found a new gig.
Lo and behold, doing two jobs simultaneously is surprisingly easy.
I think this would a lot more common if it wasn't seen as unethical to bill time in two places at once, as well as if companies were more open to hiring part-time. Why do you think your old supervisor was so open to this arrangement (not rhetorical, real question)?
FWIW, according to Warren Buffet, most people will easily make more money through their actual work / expertise, than they ever will through investing.
Absolutely. This is common advice from people like Dave Ramsey. Figuring out how to make more money is the fastest way to wealth and/or financial freedom. Taking a second job, upleveling your current job, or getting a new job at higher pay goes a long way when combined with a strict budget.
I've had several jobs which have had "cycles of inactivity". Basically periods where we are just doing busy work until a project gets signed off on or until client(s) commit to a new release, etc.
I would use it to learn something new, take care of technical debt, automate something, or......relax
This exact thing happened to me, even though I wasn't paid as well. In order to match the pace of my team I only did work on Fridays. It was depressing how many problems it solved.
I wouldn't be able to stand it. The only thing that combats the suck of going to an office every day is having something to do to make the time pass. I would go insane.
It makes sense sometimes. If you have a huge, complex organization, it might make sense to have predictable, synchronous cogs. It makes planning easier and less risky, and moving the entire system as a whole is easier if the individual parts don't vary too much.
Does your company have an effective monopoly or is part an oligopoly? Normally companies can run with gross inefficiencies because of lack of competition.
Yeah. If I'm on work time, working on a potential side project feels ethically wrong. This is different than wasting time on HN, or reading about some new programming language because that knowledge gain could be used at work at some point.
> only to have my team-lead actively micromanage and stonewall me in order to bring my productivity down to a crawl
When leading, my default is to give people space. Unfortunately, that means if someone needs micro-managing I'm typically not the right person. This is different than mentoring, which I enjoy (not sure if I'm any good at it though ;) ). And obviously, I'm always there for questions. What I don't understand is how leads/managers have the time micromanage people. If a person can't trust their team to do a good job, then they should not be leading a team.
> but they started blaming me personally every time I pointed out any ways of improving the way we do things.
Even if it was your fault, this is wrong. All problems are the leads problems. The lead should be asking him/herself why you went around them to the manager? The manager should be asking the lead the same question.
I'm so happy I don't work in a big company anymore.
This is interesting and sad to me. Sad because it's at least one data point that refutes a theory I've had.
I've been on a job search for some time now in the same field which you're employed. I've had a number of interviews but I think things have stalled a few times when it's come to salary negotiation. I've been approaching things with the theory that the more I'm compensated the less likely I'd be in the situation you've described and the one I find myself currently in. So, I've been asking well above market rate in the hopes that if I find a taker I'd force the employer's hand in tasking me with non bullshit work.
If you're looking for meaningful, interesting work on a high-functioning team, IMO the only way to be sure is to only apply to companies where you already know someone working there. Find someone you know who genuinely likes their job, and have them refer you to a position at their company. Anything else is just reading tea leaves.
So my son and I undertook an interesting project of sorts a few months ago... We attempted to obtain bitcoin while remaining completely anonymous. The only way that I could see to successfully do this was to either purchase directly from someone using cash via Craigslist or the like, exchanging a good or service directly with someone for bitcoin or mining of course.
To me using cryptos as a derivative of existing fiat is the weak link in the chain as the anonymity all but goes away. And when that goes away the concerns you've stated reappear because decentralization is gone.
I was on $100K for doing a similar amount of depressingly simple or "easy" work, while being surrounded by people who felt or at least appeared stuck.
It seems like a dream but I also got really demotivated and my sharp skills quickly became stale and then one day I realised I didn't care enough to upskill again.
The job became more about appearance and saying the right things, showing your face in the right meetings, and claiming recognition for other people's work.
I've now shelved that career. The money wasn't worth the feeling of guilt or missing out. I think the hardest part was knowing I was getting paid double than people who worked 3X harder.
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[ 6.3 ms ] story [ 345 ms ] thread>muh popular opinion
The fact that the writer happened to write something that lots of people enjoyed neither contributes to nor detracts from the fact that this article is full of willfully contrarian edge, befitting a teenager.
Edit: For those to whom the humor didn't come across, I'm just teasing. This isn't an attack on the author.
This is a level of cognitive dissonance I’m not prepared to commit to arguing against. I’m not capable of issuing the bar to every lawyer I require the services of, nor the board to every presumed doctor, nor a thesis defense to every academic.
Credentials aren’t perfect, but they are superior to the time required for everyone to judge everything on their own. For example, almost all scientists agree that climate change is human caused. Do I spend my time digging through climate data, verifying this? No. I rely on the expertise of experts.
Credenials have use; just not in conversation.
Sometimes I'll see research using data that only goes back to perhaps 1970 or the 1800s for example, which is ridiculous.
Climate change is the modern day religion. I wonder if the world will end up going to war over this.
Personally I believe that humans are not capable of causing climate change, they are too insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
And if the climate didn't change, it would be a bad thing, because that would mean that the planet is dead.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
And academics don’t have a monopoly on making criticism.
Keep HN high signal to noise!
Edit: The crowd is free to use downvotes judiciously if calling out the disingenuous is frowned upon. That’s what they’re there for.
Sounds more like you're claiming authority over what is acceptable on HN...
In this particular case, I felt the parent to my comment was basically invaliding the honest feedback of its own parent comment. To me, that comes off as "conversation shutdown" and that's somewhat unsettling.
As an aside, the more educated the arena, the worse conversation shutdown seems to feel to me. My city, for example, has a major upper-end university at its heart, and it's very on-edge right now. You can feel it, and people are talking about it (and fighting). It really affects me and seemingly the student population too. It's as if we're not allowed to be honest with each other, or audible about what's happening.
I'm also wondering if these forums are worth visiting these days, for the sake of conversation. It's hard to have open, honest discussions and sometimes I get frustrated and lash out. That's my own fault. (Moreover, I'm not sure if there's much constructive conversation to be had at the moment.)
Oh, the times we live in. Guess I'll log off and read some Dickens.
Bullshit jobs are an interesting phenomenon and I enjoyed the article. I also chuckled at the parent comment.
It doesn't have to be taken very seriously.
Calling for the elimination of the army and corporate lawyers is sophomoric, but probably deliberately so.
And isn't discussing a potentially enormous societal inefficiency worth doing?
And I haven’t noticed they’ve ever wondered if government jobs might be economically pointless (ie damaging). Usually it’s the opposite - they tend to recommend and call for more damage.
Not everyone is in a position to make a discernible impact on society. 20% of society will always drive 80% of progress. Think hard how you want the remaining 80% to support their families.
The Edwardian reign was just at the tail end of candle-based lighting. By 1914, most of the households that could afford it would have already installed at least one electric light. The Great War would have devastated the available supply of footmen, and made those still around prohibitively expensive, so I'd expect that any servant-employing house would have given up their candle-men entirely by 1918. They would be electrified afterward, with the hand-carried lighting moving to oil lamps, and any lamp-refill duties moved to less expensive female servants.
After that, those teams of footmen could be replaced by just one footman, or part-time handyman, to replace burnt-out bulbs. We still have people whose job includes responsibility for replacing malfunctioning lighting, including fluorescent tubes and ballasts. But we no longer have people whose sole responsibility is lighting, except perhaps in the very largest buildings, or those with special lighting needs, such as museums.
It wasn't busy work, but the majority of those jobs definitely don't exist any more.
Suppose we tax Forbes 500 at 100% level and the companies too. That would provide about 2 billion USD a year. Divided by population it will be less than $2k a person yearly.
Suppose you tax top 10%, I'd expect that to double this number. Still way not enough. And we're not even close to military budget.
As a result, the samurai class, especially Tokugawa's bannermen and "inner" families, sort of lost their purpose. There were no more wars to fight - not when peace lasted "as long as the waves roll" - and the strongest rebels they could expect were peasants who could not own swords.
Because they couldn't just revoke the lands Iyeyasu had distributed (without very good reason), and to give the samurai something to do, the Edo government expanded constantly, creating dozens of superfluous or sinecure bureaucratic roles, so that the second and third sons of samurai families wouldn't just sit around at home. I believe this pattern was repeated across the various daimyo han at each castle town. Further, the samurai household themselves created redundant job openings just to get more peasants out of unemployment. This was how every samurai ended up with six porters. Even as certain samurai families sunk into abject poverty in the 1800s, as the shogunate neared its end, this policy continued: your grandfather had increased the number of household retainers from five to six, to give someone's fourth son a job; and it had become hereditary, and now that fourth son's grandson was your sixth retainer, and you couldn't destroy the position even if you could barely afford to pay him.
When I hear politicians talking about "creating jobs", I think of the shogunate.
It's the autobiography of Katsu Kokichi (Musui is another name he was known by), a samurai born in the early 19th century to a very low-ranking family. It's a firsthand account of life at the very lowest fringe of Shogunate society at the very end of that system, and is quite entertaining because Katsu is a lazy good-for-nothing who can't even get one of those pointless bureaucracy jobs and survives by doing "lowly" merchant work. I think it would make a pretty funny TV show because the protagonist is such a hapless loser.
Which I totally get - a tourist is way more likely to make a mistake than a local.
[0] https://haywirez.com/tokyo-hong-kong-2018/
What if you were older/disabled and had trouble lifting a medium-large suitcase?
Seems like not the most useless job in the world, especially since it helps keep things moving in the airport and reduces congestion by getting people their bags slightly faster.
You might be confusing this with curb side check in, which is a service airlines use as a convenience to customers checking bags (so they don't need to go to the ticket counter with heavy/numerous bags ).
There is a big difference between a job that creates convenience for other people and one that’s redundant or pointless.
Please tell me that you say this only to win the argument, because, come on. Putting things into something else is as trivial as it gets, and I can assure you that, even though I have never seen one, a person whose job is to fill the bits someone else bought into bags for them will give absolutely zero fucks about how he puts them things into them bags. Except maybe it's somewhere like Harrods, I guess, if they are paid high enough (now I recalled this: there was a comment or an article recently about an employee of Harrods whose job was to get fired when customers came to complain about other personnel).
You figure out how to build a base, how to seperate items by contimination risk, learn how to fill a bag up.
People who do it poorly give you 15 bags when 7 will do.
The biggest incentive is to do it faster. The job is boring as sin, so you just want to get it over with.
It's also a good job for mentally challenged people. It's low stress, something they can learn, and something they can do well at.
I think you may not realize how many shoppers/how much person-density there can be in the US.
Norwegians was confused every time AFAIK.
Having to bag my own groceries is infuriating. In Canada, The Real Canadian Superstore was the first to do this and it has a shitty feel.
The lines are long, I bring my own bags and have to get out of peoples way as I pay and try to bag my own groceries.
I actually started going to self checkouts because if they don’t bag my groceries, cashiers are useless to me!
If you think bagging is just stuffing bags in orde that groceries come, you’re nuts. I hate it when a useless cashier takes my apples and just tosses them into bags too. They’re fragile and need to be handled as such.
I definitely think bagging is a service worth paying for and appreciate when I get a bagger that gets it.
Oh, my first real job was bagging and helping customers with the groceeos to their cars. Not useles.
They also sometimes do this when looking for a bag for transfer (which failed to get interlined correctly or something, or when an elite has a connection but there's no interline agreement.)
They're there so the owner of the club/restaurant can relax, not you.
Right now, I feel like this guy is useless and I don't want to give him money and I feel bad about that, like by not paying him I'm calling him useless.
If it were for the owner, and that was clear, I'd feel great because I was making his job easier by not causing any trouble or mess, and on top of that, hey thanks for the towel!
Japan can be even worse. I’ve seen it at hotel seven when you’re eating at the hotel restaurant.
The toilets at St Pancras are free and always have been. He was just some random guy you gave money to!
But it is one of those weird things that survives long past the point of sense, they should just be paid a wage and be employed rather than work on this weird charity-basis. It's a bit akin to waiters in the US working on tips, whereas the rest of the world just pays them a normal wage. The clubs bank on guys with 10 beers in em to both be drunk enough and close to bursting enough to pay for the service.
The highlight of that experience was the drunk lady who stole a toilet lid in the men’s room.
This is a job that could literally be automated with a pole :)
Missing the /s. Drivers today are far worse than they were in the 80s.
[0] https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/21/auto-crashes-are-on-the-rise...
[1] http://gazette.com/study-finds-fatal-crashes-in-colorado-hav...
[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/26/what-...
You also have to watch for the pedestrians walking around and so on. It's actually a lot more involved than you think.
I did it a few times. Not hard, but it does matter a lot, and definitely not pointless.
But, yeah you have a point.
But here's the thing: There wasn't any roadwork in between. There had been, but everything was neatly packed away.
Then again, I've worked in public administration. Nothing will shock me.
So maybe this man is not needed all the time but definitely lack of somebody to unload the belt would cause problems.
> Not having a job puts you in a lower social caste
This is a stupid societal expectation that should be fought rather than supported in the way you say.
There is always valuable work that can be done. It can be improving the maintenance or cleanliness of places, etc.
And they can quit. I mean, a job guarantee isn't directly a requirement in the same sense.
Thinking is a useful skill if and only if the job they aspire to is philosopher. For everything else (and for philosophers as well, really) you need training, and for that you need time.
> And they can quit.
Sure. Anyone can choose to starve.
For example, https://www.chrisstucchio.com/blog/2013/basic_income_vs_basi...
When I was in the US there was a guy handing me a towel in the bathroom. That is an incredibly meaningless and superfluous job!
On the other hand, most Americans live their entire lives in the US without ever seeing such a guy. Are you mind-bogglingly rich?
I would just simply refuse to go to such places, but I've only ever gone at the strong insistence of friends and perhaps the insistence some strong drink.
Perhaps a real-life hack could be to bring sanitizer gel.
In the US, many people get their living from holding a “anything helps, homeless vet” sign at the train station.
Coming back home from Tokyo is always a major shock.
In an economy where having a job (or somehow having attained large sums of money because of luck/previous endeavors) is necessary to not be an outcast, this is one way of mitigating this or at least pushing the larger problem forward. We would very likely have a huge crisis if all bullshit jobs were to disappear overnight.
https://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet
You can control what years are shown on that page. I sugggest you look at 1950 to 2018. Although the data is noisy, you can see it has declined. Also note that the era of occasional double digits advances ended decades ago. The 14% in 1956 and the 12% in 1971 have never repeated this side of 1973.
The economy is stagnant because the trend toward automation has died out. Although people in tech keep predicting a robot revolution, there is no evidence of it in the productivity numbers.
What ended the era you describe? Contact with the outside world? I've also thought for a long time that space migration is the only real hope for the human race to avoid permanent stagnation and eventual decline.
Also the "floating world" period up to that point, so it seems like life was at least decent for people before the outside influence.
Perry (US) sailed a fleet into Tokyo Bay and threatened to destroy the city if the samurai government didn’t open trade with the US (1850s).
Fearing domination by western powers (cf. China) the Japanese reformed their society and economy based on western empires (1868) and within 40 years was able to soundly defeat Russia in a war (1905).
The Norse themselves still tended to follow partitioning laws, at least until the Scandinavian kingdoms started to coalesce. The repeated invasions of England between Ethelred the Unready and the final conquest of William the Bastard were not driven by second sons needing kingdoms for themselves, it was driven by England having the best tax base in the North Sea but high political stability, as well as the dying out of family lines.
Key point about the latter: when Edward the Confessor died without issue, the claims to the English throne were:
* Edward's brother-in-law and most powerful vassal, Harold Godwinson (son of the person who put Edward on the throne in the first place)
* William, the bastard son of Edward's maternal cousin. Bolstered by "when he was staying over when he was young, he totally promised me the throne when he died."
* Harald Hardrada, whose claim is "Cnut was King of England. He died, so his claim passed to Harthacnut. Harthacnut and Magnus made an agreement that, should one die without issue, the other would inherit his lands. Harthacnut died without issue, so Magnus should have been King of England. Magnus died without issue, so his claim winds its way back to me, his father's half-brother by way of mother."
In essence him being a crafts-person or merchant would have been looked down on by everyone.
Third sons wouldn't starve to death in any case, but they would rattle around the family lands making a nuisance of themselves and borrowing money from Dad. Noble families got some income from their tenants' taxes, generally, but it wasn't always enough to maintain yourself in high style. In some times/places, noblemen could get involved in trade, but that would mean funding other people's endeavors, not becoming merchants themselves. And sometimes even that was restricted or frowned upon.
Under French heraldry, it indicates a third son (when they bothered to use cadency on their coats of arms). Since his chances of inheriting the family lands & fortune were low, many of them set out for Charleston to seek their fortune, following the southern branch of the Huguenots.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_South_Carolina
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadency
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huguenots#North_America
Another example is the Janissaries in turkey.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facino_Cane
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitellozzo_Vitelli
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_I_Sforza
BTW while "taken from their families" is correct, many kept ties with the families. The Sokollu dynasty of grand viziers who practically ruled the empire for decades were taken the same way, but the first of Sokollus, Mehmen Sokollu, was not only able to pass on his position to his relatives, he re-established the Serbian Orthodox Church and got his brother to become its patriarch. We can discuss the humanitarian aspects of this, but practically, these people are not slaves at all; in fact, thinking that these people were slaves is downplaying what a disaster actual slavery is.
PS. There is a book by the Nobel laureate Ivo Andric about exactly the times of Sokollu, that HN readers might find interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bridge_on_the_Drina
My comment was mentioned to highlight that in many practical ways, the Christian population was practically enslaved to the Muslim overlords (regardless whether them being "real" Turks, or, more commonly, local converts, or even Janissaries). Much more than a Christian serfdom was a lightweight variation on slavery.
Christian population as a whole had very little to choose whether their children will be taken away and become Janssaries, at least until late times, and once taken away, those people had very little influence about their career choices. They were slaves in all practical ways the slavery means. For some exceptions, that slavery turned out to lead to high positions (like Sokollu) but, on the other hand, if the subject population retained their independence, talented people like Sokollu might have had opportunity to build up their local communities/states, instead of conquering the world for Ottoman sultans? :)
PS. I am personally an atheist, so I do not tend to look at the things here from the Christianity: right; Islam: wrong perspective.
I mean, finding cases of African American slaves that lived and worked as cooks or home attendants, or nannies, or whatever easier jobs were available in the South, in addition to much harder cotton picking would not be an argument that those people were not enslaved. The fact that one does not literally carry chains the whole day does not mean that he is not a slave, if the owner can literally decide on the life and death, without much consequence.
If we talk about imperial dominance in Ottoman Balkans, I would accept that local Muslim population (largely converts) lived under imperial dominance. Christian peasants - much, much heavier.
That is part of the reason he did not like them, their loyalty was bought and the "prince" who used them did not have any other leverage. It is difficult to win and then govern with mercenaries as the protectors of the kingdom. A long standing mercenary army does not convey legitimacy, and when disbanded there are issues of proper resettlement and worry about a rival acquiring their service.
Basically the Japanese government funds a large number of "pointless" projects, such as freeways to nowhere, large sea-facing cement walls, or things like subsidizing construction companies and the like (this is why you'll see 6 people standing around a hole in the ground, 3 "bosses" doing absolutely nothing, 2 of them old men flagging traffic, 1 person doing the actual digging). This is how Japan manages to keep their unemployment rate low, and thus keep money moving through the economy - by making sure people are able to obtain a job, even if it's useless or redundant.
At the top of it all you have the massive Zaibatsu (big conglomerates) which fund the lower level companies under their umbrella which in turn pay these meager salaries and keep people employed, typically as some kind of tax write off and the side benefits of having all of these various companies at their disposal (concrete, construction, real estate, etc).
The bottom of the system is incredibly inefficient, but it helps make sure that a bare minimum quality of life is available for people willing to try to get any old job.
Interesting article which sums up big infrastructure projects and their long term drawbacks/benefits better than I can (2009) - https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/06/world/asia/06japan.html
If the goal is to prevent the society from tearing itself apart then perhaps this is fairly efficient. If the goal is to ma
The scale of the war was massive. Japan alone brought a force of 158,800 in 1st invasion of 1592. In the 2nd invasion of 1597–98, Japan again brought similar number of troops.
For comparison in the Long Turkish War or Thirteen Years' War which was between 1593 to 1606, Ottoman Empire had 160,000–180,000 men.
Ming Dynasty sent 50,000 men to aid Korea, and some say this started the decline of Ming Dynasty.
One really great book I recommend for anyone wanting to learn about this war is
Some interesting tidbits from the book:1. This war was the first time a large group of Christians (not Western but Japanese Christians) set foot in Korea. Of the 12 (?) forces commanded by different warlords, 2 or 3 had large number of Christians. And these were first Christians to set foot in Korea.
2. Chosun Dynasty court maintained the Annals of the Joseon Dynasty (also known as The True Record of the Joseon Dynasty), annual records of the Joseon Dynasty of Korea. They were kept from 1413 to 1865. The annals, or sillok, comprise 1,893 volumes and are thought to cover the longest continual period of a single dynasty in the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veritable_Records_of_the_Joseo...
Four copies of the records were kept in geographically separate area within Chosun. However during the Imjin War, 3 of the 4 were burned down by Japanese forces. The Imjin War book talks about how the last set of copy was being transported in numerous, lumbering carts pulled by ox to keep it out of marauding Japanese forces. The convoy was in a village when Japanese forces caught up. The convoy had not enough troops to resist. They then faked it to look like the village held more Korean troops than actual, by using extra flags and other camouflage. Japanese forces stayed away and this allowed the last backup of 4 backups to survive.
This tidgit was extra interesting to me for following: 1) Faking it till making it. 2) how 4 sets of backup was just barely enough.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration
Japanese developed clever formal court system (Sankin-kotai "alternate attendance") where half of the daimyos were kept hostage in the capital city at all times. Spend year in your own lands surrounded by your own men, one year as hostage in the capital that was under the control of the shogun. If daimio left the capital, his wife and heir were kept as hostages. All these daimios and their close families needed something to do to make their life meaningful. Same applied to their underlings.
King Louis XIV had similar system for the same reasons. Nobles had to keep hostage in his palace at Versailles and they needed things to do. The court system developed bullshit jobs for nobles, like helping him into the bed or taking part of the party. Everyone was given a role to play.
That was somewhat of a rant, and I don't really have any kind of solution to all of it. America is several thousand tragedies of the commons, from a neighbor-to-neighbor level all the way up to the federal government.
1) You blame your "individualistic natures" for the appearance of pointless jobs. Now, I haven't lived in the US, but that seems odd to me. I live in Romania, a society that is profoundly focused on the community, and the abundance of pointless jobs, particularly in the communistic years (communism being a profoundly anti-individualistic ideology) was absolutely staggering.
It just seems to me pretty self-evident that, as you move the focus from the individual, and his own happiness, he will find less motivation to do a meaningful job, and be contempt with a pointless, but simpler job.
I may be missing something important here, as, again, everything I know about American culture I know from the internet, so, if I am, please feel free to tell me.
2) "Public jobs are low-paying and staffed with people who couldn't find jobs in the private sector, resulting in little incentive to do more than the absolute minimum."
I'm afraid I just don't follow here. Wouldn't the low pay motivate people to work at pulling themselves out of those jobs and into the private sector?
3) You claim, quite rightly, that companies are not concerned with the public good, just with their survival and/or success, and consider jobs given out as "saintly privileges".
Firstly, all of the modern advances of mankind, from the industrial revolution, to the ridiculously cheap products provided by Rockefeller, Edison, and the like, to the supercomputers almost every human in the civilized world carries with him in his pocket, were made, not in the interest of "the greater community", but in those people/companies' self-interest.
Secondly, which worker do you think is more productive? The one that says "I am owed this job by my company"? Or the one that says, "My job is nothing but a privilege given onto me by the company, and I must prove every day that I deserve it?"
In any case, I'd be really grateful if you could explain these points to me. Thanks in advance!!
Americans, as the saying does, live to work. Many tie their individual worth to the jobs they do. We invest a lot of ourselves into our jobs (those we care about anyway), and oftentimes the output doesn't equal the input.
>Wouldn't the low pay motivate people to work at pulling themselves out of those jobs and into the private sector?
You greatly overestimate the average person's drive to better themselves. Plenty are fine to get something that pays the bills and that's it.
>Secondly, which worker do you think is more productive?
You're going between 2 extremes that I didn't mention. My comment about companies offering jobs comes from the understanding of how positions (mainly in the white collar industry) used to be in the 50s/60s/70s vs. today. People that worked at the IBMs/RANDs/GMs/etc. of yester-decade worked there for decades. They were loyal to that company, almost to a fault. When they retired, they were given an expensive Omega with their name engraved in the back. Some even got pensions. Note this was also largely in the context of the pre-globalization age. Nowadays companies have no problem axing whole divisions to meet their bottom lines. They will go overseas. They have no problem leaving an area they've been at for decades. All the while, baby boomers continue to wonder out loud why their kids don't have the same earnings potential as they did. Not saying any of this is good or bad, it just is.
Most jobs -- teachers, auto workers, plumbers, farmers -- have a natural ceiling on employment related to demand, but goon jobs don't because when one side hires more goons, the other side has to also. Militaries have created millions of jobs this way.
Goon jobs are not just blue-collar. A growing category of goon that allows unlimited highly paid professional job creation is inter-governmental lawyers. For example, the CA government is suing the EPA about vehicle emissions limits. Both sides can justify a big budget for hiring lawyers. Metropolitan areas like the Bay Area provide lots of opportunities for cities to sue each other, transit authorities, and the state. I don't see any upper limit to the number of jobs this can create.
All this is only a bad thing if you care about efficiency. If you let go of that axiom, there are unlimited jobs to be created.
But any suggestion of "mincome" or the like is met with such a harsh reaction... What, effectively, is the difference between goon-bloom and mincome? Is it just that one is too obviously a subsidy?
We're all engineers here. Can you honestly say you'd prefer a job that paid the same, but where you wouldn't have to use your mind?
Of course, it's been used to justify some serious horrors.
I think I've even seen this dynamic at play in international negotiations, with poorer countries being swamped by the experienced legal teams of larger countries, or being forced to effectively delegate their authority to an NGO that maintains a competitive legal team.
I believe this is doable from a technical perspective and it’s the problem I’m trying to devote my life to. We ultimately need to build optional societies where people who choose to join can opt out of consumerism, a major driver of our need for endless work.
My vision is for systems of robotics that are totally open source (modifiable and royalty free) that can create the basic goods for survival. Then groups of people fund corporations with bylaws like a constitution that guarantee rights to shareholders. The machines provide for the people and excess goods are sold to a market to support growth of the community.
I think something like that in the future is one very useful aspect of a society where unnecessary work is over and regular people get to enjoy the benefits of modern productivity (instead of a small percentage of the population enjoying that while most people miss out).
But in general when I talk to people I find that the hardest idea for them to grasp is the idea that we could all work less and things wouldn’t collapse. We just need to alter the distribution of wealth so that everyone benefits.
https://www.opensourceecology.org/gvcs/
i realize that the rest of your post details technological advancements that could create this condition (on an indefinite timeline), but you also seem to be saying that it is already possible today. i often see this sort of claim these days, and i always wonder why this is treated as self evident fact.
in 2015, the PPP adjusted GDP per capita over the entire planet was just under $16k [1]. this is only 125% of the US poverty line for a single person in the same year [2]. even if we could deliver this sum to every person in the world without losing production capacity and with no administrative cost, it hardly seems enough to provide what you mean by a "modest living" to everyone. much closer to mere subsistence in a developed nation.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...
[2] https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/income-p...
I recognize that in many places in the world, the development isn’t there. However the US can also play a part by ending the imperialism that helps keep these countries down.
The reason this doesnt happen is that those who sell the food, or build the housing are better off getting paying customers. This makes sense as a market, sellers are self-interested. It also leads to a certain kind of optimum. But certainly, as a matter of production, it is feasible to give everyone a modest life without needing to change productivity. As a matter of social stability, it isn't feasible, but in some sense, that should be a denouncement of society.
If you blow up a tank, and then build a new one, this is considered a net gain in GDP even though in reality there was a relative net loss of human labor.
I don't think this is true, because I think too large a fraction of the world's current productivity is supplied by people who would not produce if they didn't have to to earn a living.
> My vision is for systems of robotics that are totally open source (modifiable and royalty free) that can create the basic goods for survival.
This would fix the productivity problem, yes. But...
> Then groups of people fund corporations with bylaws like a constitution that guarantee rights to shareholders. The machines provide for the people and excess goods are sold to a market to support growth of the community.
This would throw away the whole thing. If there are open source machines that can create the basic goods for survival, the obvious thing to do is for every individual to just own one. There is no need for corporate ownership; in fact, corporate ownership undermines the whole thing, by giving some people an incentive to game the corporate system. If there is no such system, there's nothing to be gamed.
Not according to the article.
I don't see the article making any claim one way or the other about what I was saying.
Lawyers may similarly be accused of evil, but rarely laziness. There’s a general perception that they’ve passed through a crucible we wouldn’t survive (law school) and do work we couldn’t hack. Other bureaucrats, not so much.
"let's just wait for a reaction, if we are lucky, nothings gonna come."
"Let's just threaten with outrageous claims instead of making an effort."
"We know the law is wrong but it's easier to roll with it than to fix it or find a way around it."
The problem with mincome is the hedonic treadmill.
the folk receiving mincome will grow dissatisfied with their lot and militate for raises. negative feedback is unpleasant but necessary.
Close. What it does is reduces supply (fewer people working) while raising demand (people with more money in their pockets). This winds up causing inflation that erodes away the value of the minimum income. It's not even a hedonic treadmill, just an inflationary one.
A basic income guarantee can only ever work as temporary assistance or as a residualist stopgap for people on the fringes of society. If it's too widespread it ends up working against itself. A job guarantee increases supply (assuming you use the labor power productively) while keeping demand high, so that works against the inflation problem.
It's a tough balancing act though. You have to make sure the make-work is actually producing useful stuff or you'll have all the same problems as the basic income plus a bunch of random ditches dug. During Cultural Revolution in China cadres kind of engendered ecological catastrophes by creating bureaucratic agencies that would pointlessly clearcut forests for no reason. It's basically the paper-clip maximizing AI problem, only the intelligence isn't artificial.
Yes, there are other ways to differentiate yourself in a social hierarchy, but finding a new and novel way to live is a lot harder than continuing to live the same way humans have lived for centuries.
It's not surprising that the modern Silicon Valley economy is built on advertising.
Even today the military encompasses the largest industry in the world. All of the technology we use has been rooted in the Military. Engineering Departments everywhere are subsidized by the Military more than any other department because they know anything you engineer has the potential as a "goon" application.
I don't think "goon" is going away anytime soon, it's a core part of our evolution as a species.
-Warren Bennis
Oh cool, we invented almost-basic income.
But that isn’t true. Look at the size of the North Korean army.
You've made an overstated example of a single outlier. There's outliers at the other end too, with both countries that are too dysfunctional to have any national security at all, and countries that simply ride the coattails of their stronger allies.
In any case, this is all entirely irrelevant to my point, which is that armed forces do contribute measurable value to society, and that the level of investment in them is typically proportional to the level of security a country requires.
No I am not https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries...
>US Army 476,000 regulars
And that number goes up to ~1.3M once you add in the Air Force, Navy and Marines. And as I've said, you're still only comparing numbers of service personnel, and ignoring capability, equipment and other resources. You're also ignoring the point I was making entirely.
the country with the biggest economy ends up with the biggest army.
That is demonstrably false, as shown in that Wikipedia article. In fact, there is barely any correlation between the size of a country’s economy and its army.
You're also ignoring the point I was making entirely.
Since your facts are wrong, there isn’t even a point to ignore
https://gizmodo.com/overrated-human-elon-musk-says-humans-ar...
Long-since automated I suspect, but at that point in time I presume that the human was cheaper and more reliable than the equivalent robot.
Aside: the equivalent job on the M&Ms production line _was_ being done by a robot, and required the packets of M&Ms to be neatly lined up in their boxes.
Or even stuff that has real meaning
Why do you think that maintaining safe and beautiful cities has no real meaning? Someone needs to do it. Is this just elitism?
"If the Treasury were to fill old bottles with banknotes, bury them at suitable depths in disused coal mines which are then filled up to the surface with town rubbish, and leave it private enterprise on well tried principles of laissez-faire to dig the notes up again (the right to do so being obtained, of course, by tendering for leases of the note-bearing territory), there need be no more unemployment and, with the help of the repercussions, the real income of the community, and its capital wealth also, would probably become a good deal greater than it actually is."
"It would indeed be better to build houses and the like"
It also follows on from a criticism of the economic utility of digging up gold and then burying it in the ground, which is an economic analog of digging holes and filling them in.
It won't be the first or the last time that quote gets taken out of context. Rich, white men with gold in the ground prefer your misinterpretation.
Social work, infrastructure repairs, mental health services.
But all the effort coalesces around BIG Corp. and Douche Co. needs first
Somehow we’re convinced that Bezos and Koch’s are more important than our neighbors
Some looney economists will tell you it’s proven in physics these people are just better
Ignoring the history of violent imperialism and collusion, and oppression that prevented and neutered whole swaths of people from catching up or getting ahead
My take is humans are ignorant animals who are emotionally captured by novelty and special interests keep peddling it to stoke that dopamine buzz
Then when you read in open access government documents they’ve been studying exactly that since WW1, and handing that research to unis who turned it into journalism, advertising, marketing, and management courses, you don’t go “oh deep state!” You go holy shit are we dumb. This is right in front of our faces, no conspiracy theory needed. Documented in official record, in plain view, how government has been dictating what we work on in the land of the free
The first topic that got me onto this pattern: was doing a research paper on thorium reactors since they were all buzzwordy a few years ago
In the 50s they were THE leading effort for energy
That all stopped when a Naval officer realized submarines could be equipped with quieter nuclear engines and weapons and be parked on the coast of whenever undetected
Thorium research was archived and we got to build unstable, by comparison, reactors as a result
And then you see it’s like that all over the historical record from the era
And you realize Bezos and Koch’s aren’t special. They were lucky to be alive now in a heavily curated system with a plain paper trail
My wife is a pediatric occupational therapist specializing in early intervention. She gets paid bupkis by the children's hospital but working super interesting cases. She gets paid reasonably by the county for providing homecare to some kids who really need help as the county is the Medicaid payor of last resort and the kids really need help. She gets paid handsomely by private parties, but the work is often dull.
I'm not sure people work at the corps because the pay is better. I suspect many are attracted by some of the crazy problems on offer.
I don’t mean to suggest people literally consider them special in thought (though there are folks that do believe wealthy folks are divine).
But an objective view, minus culture bias, of economic activity would show a lot of activity swirling into Bezos’s bank accounts
What are Bezos ideas? Selling books online. Today that seems rather quaint, so yeah it was a different thing in 199-whenever
But that’s it. Everything else has been curated around him — cloud and such, he didn’t invent shared compute time.
But the system inherently protects that now. Ownership is the root of power. And the public, through government, has taken on debt to prop up ownership of new ideas and achievements as described in the anecdote about nuclear subs
IBM refused to invest in transistor computers. So the government did. And gifted it to IBM for mass production.
There’s a paper trail to tell a narrative that shows Bezos, etc, got lucky to live now, after all this government invention
And now he just says work on cloud and homes for me with 25 toilets and that’s how it goes. He’s that special in the system that he can command such
But he’s not elected. He’s not divine. And the species has plenty of demands that aren’t related to what he needs.
I’m picking on Bezos, but to me the notion applies to any super rich “my great grandkids can retire on inheritance.”
Those are the conversations we should be having.
I’ve tutored kids in comm college, algebra and basic coding, who can absolutely build web apps and shit, but all their lives assume adulthood is pragmatic acquiescence their future
Not working with the neighbors they grew up knowing, but for elites a world away
Pragmatic acquiescence has us literally discussing the value of Bezos and the stock market and not opioid addiction, and mental health — where there is plenty of demand
"All demand is real demand" is true only when the demand is not intentionally manipulated.
We have more than enough "capital". There is no shortage of (completely made up virtual) "money". There always is plenty of money for any worthwhile project - because it is created new for that new project. And if the economy is in trouble because "money!" the government steps in and through intermediaries creates a few trillion, see last crisis. So, please clarify for me, how does anything "suck away" capital from useful endeavors? According all that I read the last decade "money" is scrambling to find even half-decent places to invest itself.
The government GIVES you the money in the first place, you would be nothing living in a mud hut in the swamp without the "evil government". It's not "your" money to begin with. If you want to know what is "yours" go to the middle of the forest and live there, all the stone tools and grass huts you manage to build are all yours, no "stealing" from government. Everything you have you owe to luck of birth, that you were not born nearer the beginning of humanity but today. You live off of network effects of connected humanity in time and space. Don't give me that BS of "your money". Everything you are is 99.999999999999999999% NOT made by you.
By the way, we have had a HUGE increase in money over real economy for decades - and only very low inflation. Your ignorance is a bit too extreme for my taste.
But not everyone is suited for that work, much less qualified to perform those services, and perhaps most importantly, not everyone WANTS to.
Raise the salaries for those professions and more might, and of course with a UBI people are less incentivized by earnings to get into a specific job.
Even if someone is working in a job that de facto amounts to doing just that, it should be covered up so that this fact isn't obvious and that a person can reasonably choose to ignore the truth and convince themselves that their job has some real value. Which is actually done, all kinds of internal propaganda, glorious mission statements, etc.
Ah you see, this is why you have one person doing the digging, and another doing the filling! This way, each man goes home satisfied.
Probably a motivator to get a better / real job? I certainly prefer that over UBI
We have a lack of real productive jobs that makes a difference.
This results in the rise of the pointless job which is soul crushing.
The answer is not to just get a real productive job. Because the lack of those is the source of the problem.
It would be like if someone said they don't want to have chemotherapy because its painful. And you said... easy, if you don't want chemotherapy don't get cancer.
Europe can start reconstructing all the ruins of castles, monasteries and cathedrals; for example Napoleon destroyed quite a lot of them and most didn't recover. Or just tear down all the ugly buildings built between 50s-70s when architects were out of whack like some German cities are doing right now (Frankfurt) and replace them with some 3D printed aesthetically pleasing ones. Should be a plenty of work and those jobs could be opposite of soul crushing.
I'd like to see something like a reincarnation of the CCC. There's so much relatively unskilled labor out there that goes undone.
Further, being forced to spend time doing that makes it much harder to gain skills for, or search for, another job.
Make-work non-training jobs (though ideally real beneficial work that just has market value less than what is paid by government for it rather than obvious waste of effort) may be a same policy solution to short-term private sector dislocation where demand for work with basically-similar skill profile has dropped but is expected to rebound, but beyond that it is fairly obvious counterproductive and a trap that impedes the ability of a labor force to adapt to new needs compared to conventional means-tested welfare, which itself is not very good at that (which is one of the motivations for UBI.)
The current capitalist system is all about the individual self interest of each playing agent (company). That probably worked in the past in loosely-populated areas with lots of resources, but doesn't look like it is the way for the future.
I’d hazard to guess that most postwar US economic activity was indirectly fueled by government policy, and it has shifted in some ways to large cartels.
How big is the 'security' industry (include 'national security')?
What percent of the workers at the health clinic you visit are there to control, limit, and ration the access to medical care?
Isn't the entire legal system there to sustain the power of the powerful?
Isn't the educational establishment designed to support a hierarchical society in which the highly-educated are few, highly-paid and comfortable, and the rest are not?
2) About 20 hired specifically for this purpose. Admins, doctor and nurse managers, a few receptionists, a few ministers.
3) Not all, not even most of it. Plenty of civil, criminal and driving cases. These are very common. The patent and copyright lawyers are the minority...
4) Not in principle. In practice there are such pathologies, especially in countries without good public higher education. In principle the education system is to supply a source of educated and intelligent workers for complex jobs, including lower levels for less demanding ones. The trouble begins when rich and powerful segregate themselves into educational sinecures.
I call UBI gay-space-communism because it suggests that all human beings are capable of handling themselves outside of employment and daily routine. They are not. The market creates this drive in people, and if you remove it, people will degenerate fast.
Opioids, UBI, and free-love for everyone. Yikes.
Why would you lose direction and meaning? That's such a cultural thing to say, to think your job is your direction and meaning.
There are tons of people who think like the poster above, that we need to control people by not letting them have enough earnings or whatever to be free and making choices for themselves. That belief is what is really scary to me.
Base the UBI on multiple economic indicators such as the prices of essential services and goods, add more money to the money supply as needed.
> Opioids, UBI, and free-love for everyone. Yikes.
So a lot of people live a simple life on the basic income and hang out getting stoned and screwing. Oh no!
What's your hobby? What would you be doing if you didn't have to work for a living? Would you spend all your time getting stoned and doing the social maneuvering necessary to get laid on a regular basis? Or would you do something else with your time? Work on that programming project that's been on the back burner while you paid the bills, draw comics, join a comedy troupe, brew mead, figure out a way to automate something that drives you crazy, pick up the guitar you put down in favor of a sensible day job and start making music again... or whatever.
Personally, when I had a few years free from needing to work for someone else, I mostly spent them drawing a weird sci-fi comic using the skills I'd developed while training for the animation industry.
(The usual phrase, by the way, is "fully automated gay luxury space communism".)
No, it won't.
> Prices of essential services and goods would skyrocket
If you do a constant-value UBI and set the value too high, yes, that would happen in a positive feedback loop, but that's why UBI should be tied to a revenue stream with a value set by splitting the revenue stream with a reserve cushion to build a fund to allow preserving benefits in short-term revenue decline.
> people would lose direction
I don't see a credible argument for that replacing status quo means-tested social support with UBI would cause this, and indeed much of the motivation for UBI is to remove adverse incentives in present benefit programs that manifestly do produce this effect.
> I call UBI gay-space-communism
Which is dumb, because it has nothing to do with homosexuality or outer space or, as it retains private property, Communism.
> suggests that all human beings are capable of handling themselves outside of employment and daily routine.
No, it doesn't, not that that would justify your ludicrous label even if that was true.
1. government announces UBI
2. retailers, in anticipation of higher demand raise prices.
3. UBI beneficiaries see that they cannot buy as many goods as they want/need so they start demanding more money.
4. government see that they have more tax revenue due to higher retail sales (and the price raise from step 2) so it easily agrees to increase UBI amount.
5. go to step 2.
I think you can be cured of the latter if you consider the fact that it's exactly equivalent to a negative income tax system.
Most of this falls directly in the category of "not my problem" that is eating everyone's soul. Because more and more people subscribing to "not my problem" we are creating perfect systems that need bureaucracy. The opposite structure is more people doing the hands-on-work (that is reported on) and more of those people being involved directly in decisions and are stakeholders on firing. Everyone has a sense of how much work is being done and who the slackers are so there is no more a need for upward reporting and downward decisions.
Now the argument being made is that AI is replacing jobs so you could say - well this upward reporting job is all that we have left! So I say boo-fuck to that. We don't have spaceships going into space on a daily basis, we don't recycle 100% of what can be recycled, we don't have clean freeways, we don't have technology that perfects our pollution, we don't have AI.... so there are A FUCK TON amount of work to be done, but no one wants to do it because of our "not my problem" attitude.
Heck if what we're facing is a training problem, then heck, I see a hell of a lot of jobs right there!
And the skeevier the club the more likely that some of the clientele would be involved in one or more of the above.
It's a mostly free system. Why is someone paying someone to do these "pointless" jobs".
Hint: the answer is this that is bullshit. Surprisingly, companies like nothing more than accumulating money. Paying people to do nothing gets in the way of this goal and so generally it doesn't happen.
This doesn't mean everyone personally feels their job has value and it doesn't mean there aren't pointless jobs in a large corporate environment but as a systemic thing, valueless jobs aren't exactly our most pressing concern.
Not every value providing task in the world induces the person doing it to instantaneosly reach nirvana because it is so wonderfully fulfilling. Many jobs are mundane. It doesn't mean they are valueless. Why would someone be paying them to do it otherwise?
It's easy to write a piece of software once and share it with everybody.
The product you are working on - what unique value is giving to humanity?
(I mean beyond "it pays the bills" and "it uses $popular_thing_of_the_year")
I believe we reached a level of productivity where - in rich countries - we are all keeping each other busy with loads of unnecessary work.
Nevertheless, the point is still extremely valid; I would estimate around 95%.
Update: As in general it is easy to draw overly pessimistic conclusions from this (I have been affected by this myself), it may be of use to point out that positive answers do exist for this issue. One of my personal favorites is the powerful, short book "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankl.
If you take the concepts in this argument and expand it beyond just companies (which the author started to do when mentioning armed forces counted as goons), I think we would see a society that is already filled with useless jobs.
Even if you subscribe to the standard litany of lefty anti-person-in-uniform grudges, the notion that militaries around the world exist primarily to guard against other militaries is misguided. A much bigger motivating factor for the existence of large standing armies is the general desire of illiberal regimes, be they on the right or on the left, to keep the young male population (ie the backbone of a potential revolution) occupied on a daily basis.
Would you mind citing that or expanding on more depth? I'm curious as to your reasoning chain there and think it is an interesting critique of the article's classification.
Fighting a war with another country is not the reason most countries spend money on their armies that could be spent elsewhere.
--Jeff Hammerbacher
Wars. Wars are worse.
The west will never fight a war like WW2 ever again.
>muh humanity
Judaeo-Christian bullshit. Words can't describe how hard I'm rolling my eyes right now.
Many things designers and graphics developers do is goon-ish. Design is mostly an arms race. Employees of big companies create new design languages and at some point the rest has to adapt or be left behind. Of course, marketing is 99% bullshit anyway, and that's where a good deal of the design goes.
I doubt games are more fun now than 10 years ago because graphics has gotten better. If anything, games from 10 years ago have gotten worse because we're used to more complex graphics.
Almost everybody here is a duct-taper. 95% of our time is spent dealing with technical debt. We're using decades old technology that was never designed to solve the problems we face now. Take the twitter password problem on the front page: This would've never happened had we just adopted a more sane approach to authentication. When you wait for hours on your windows updates, think of the poor souls who know that none of this is necessary but can't entangle the mess that makes this necessary (apparently). And think of the poor souls in testing who can't report the real bug that is a broken code architecture which makes automated or more fine-grained tests impossible.
You can make the same argument about software between companies being an arms race that competitors adapt to to or get left behind (see cloud, mobile, voice, etc.).
Some would argue that this metaphor better describes finance industry professionals though.
Pointless jobs exist because of inefficiences. Someone higher up couldn't be bothered to automate it, and there isn't enough oversight of the budget. An entrenched interest (like a no-longer-needed union regulation) is too hard to fight. Etc.
But capitalism is the most marvelous machine for removing inefficiencies, and therefore removing pointless jobs. Why? Because the owner/capitalist will make more money when they're removed/automated. It's easy to say McDonald's cashiers have pointless jobs, and they're being replaced with kiosks. Or taxi drivers with driverless cars. The same way the original human "computers" were replaced by calculating machines. The process isn't perfect and certainly isn't instant, but it happens and is relentless.
Pointless jobs decrease over time. And trying to claim that they're rising, as Graeber does, is simply disingenuous and dishonest.
Doormen Can accept packages when you are not in your apt (leaving outside is not an option in NY)
Doormen absolutely provide value and apts in buildings with doormen sells for more than equivalent apartments with only intercall.You're essentially saying entertainment is meaningless. Which isn't right at all.
Waitress is a bullshit job though, just like a butler. In a truly egalitarian society a job like that wouldn't exist. It's an artificial construct that can be pretty annoying especially when you're waiting for your check for half an hour. :)
However, the team that I go put into, is one of the slowest moving and least useful I've ever seen. I spent my first couple months trying to make things better, and be more productive - only to have my team-lead actively micromanage and stonewall me in order to bring my productivity down to a crawl. I tried talking to my manager about it, but they started blaming me personally every time I pointed out any ways of improving the way we do things.
Eventually, I stopped trying at all, did the best I could (~2 hours/day of productivity), and just zoned out the rest of the time. Apparently this has pleased my manager/team-lead, and everything has been smooth (boring) sailing ever since. It still boggles my mind that I'm getting paid $350k/year to essentially browse HN and post stuff like this all day.
I still reminisce about my lowest paying job, my first. It was probably the most enjoyable and satisfying. It was also useful, though perhaps not at the top of that list.
It's annoying that so many useless jobs pay so much. But even worse that it's so hard to find a position where being useful is even a possibility.
But they're not going to cancel the contract, because they want the support in case they need it.
Weird. I share this experience. My first tech job was really great, I was constantly doing interesting things, actively making things better for everybody all the time, really like all my colleagues, it was part time, and I made a pittance.
Obviously when the workers have very few or no alternatives, the effect will be minimal.
But I know people who dropped out of college courses that provided a good chance of a middle-class income for a career that fulfilled them more, despite paying like crap. So the effect exists.
That rule must have been made by one of those super-rich people grumbling about how unfair life treats them and how the government attempts to steal "their" money.
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/02/po...
Top paying jobs like CEO are top paying because the supply of trusted people, who boards are willing to hand control over billions of assets to, is vanishingly small. Programming jobs are reasonably well paying because businesses are careful about who they hand their code over to, although not the extreme degree of CEO. And something like fry cook is low paying because those businesses are willing to hire just about anyone.
But we cannot completely discount the effects of desirability. If your employment options are fry cook or oil rig worker, most people would prefer fry cook and thus oil rig worker has considerably higher wages due to the aversion to the job, and therefore reduction in supply at the price point of fry cook. Of course, increased compensation can prompt people to look in alternative directions.
1. CEO pay at public companies is public, so they feel the need to keep up with other companies.
2. The incestuous relationship between CEOs and the boards of directors that set their pay.
CEO compensation isn't tied to performance.
That's just basic supply and demand. Since pay is public, people know how much the other party will balk at, affecting the supply.
> 2. The incestuous relationship between CEOs and the boards of directors that set their pay.
That's just basic supply and demand. Like I said, the people who have that kind of relationship are vanishingly small.
> CEO compensation isn't tied to performance.
There is no pay that is truly tied to performance. Just basic supply and demand.
You misuse economic theory by simply using it to make unsubstantiatable claims pretending that it somehow proves anything as long as you use the right magic words from economic thinking.
It’s pretty easy to figure out. Typically there will be exactly one person the board is willing to trust. It doesn’t matter how they reached that conclusion.
Being the only person in the world deemed suitable for the task gives incredible leverage when demand is near infinite.
> You misuse economic theory by simply using it to make unsubstantiatable claims
It would appear that you’re simply overthinking this. We’re talking about basic supply and demand, not a complex economic theory. It is simply an observation of what people agree to. We call it basic because it doesn’t represent anything more.
I refer to what was written above. The only "thinking" I can see on your side is how to prolong a non-argument - you just throw out random stuff, going for quantity and endless repetition, but there is not a coherent recognizable thought. Nice try, but I'd say after your first reply it turned into trolling. You are pretty good at saying a lot without saying anything at all though, I give you that much.
Board Member: "Why are you paying your brother $500k to be your assistant?. Surely an assistant shouldn't make that much money."
CEO: "I really want my brother to do it, and since I only have 1 brother it's just basic supply and demand."
You can basically frame any human interaction in terms of supply and demand, but it's not really useful to do so. And it's certainly not what most of us have in mind when we talk about "basic supply and demand".
Worthless in what way? Supply and demand is far easier to write than this long-winded explanation I have ended up giving to explain what it means. That seems well worthwhile, at least when in company who understand the meaning of the term. It is not like it is some grand unified theory of economics, if that is what you were hoping for.
> You can basically frame any human interaction in terms of supply and demand
Absolutely. All interaction has some cost, and supply and demand observes the willingness of all parties to accept that cost. That is exactly what supply and demand is all about.
> And it's certainly not what most of us have in mind when we talk about "basic supply and demand"
What is it that most of you have in mind? Supply, by definition, is the quantity of a product available at any price. Demand, by definition, is the desire and willingness to pay a price. Supply and demand is simply the observation of both and how they interact with each other. I am honestly unsure of what else you could think it means?
I honestly really enjoyed that job - it was fun working with great people doing a job of the right level of complexity and mental stimulation.
I was on $100K for doing a similar amount of depressingly simple or "easy" work, while being surrounded by people who felt or at least appeared stuck.
It seems like a dream but I also got really demotivated and my sharp skills quickly became stale and then one day I realised I didn't care enough to upskill again.
The job became more about appearance and saying the right things, showing your face in the right meetings, and claiming recognition for other people's work.
I've now shelved that career. The money wasn't worth the feeling of guilt or missing out. I think the hardest part was knowing I was getting paid double than people who worked 3X harder.
The next day my wife was fired.
The day after that, my old boss offered me a raise if I would stick around.
I did both jobs simultaneously for six months.
In my entire life nothing has been more lucrative than this. I've tried investing in stocks, bonds, and real estate. Nothing has been more lucrative than double-dipping.
The thing that's so bizarre, is that it also seemed to make me a better employee. I wasn't trying to be a scofflaw, I just kinda fell into it (due to my wife being fired). I found that things I learned from Job One made me better at Job Two, and vice versa.
I think a big part of the reason that this is, is because a lot of tech jobs are basically "human insurance policies." For instance, my employer paid me because I'm an expert in an obscure software program. So there weeks when I was busy as hell, but there were also weeks when I was basically there in case something broke.
I founded a forum on Reddit dedicated to this, it's called WWPGD. (A tip of the hat to Peter Gibbons from 'Office Space')
I turned one laptop into a virtual machine, and then I loaded that vm onto the other laptop.
So I had two jobs, one office, and one laptop. One job was remote, one was onsite.
So I did both jobs, the old and the new, simultaneously.
The initial plan was that I'd do it for a couple of weeks or a month. I was just trying to cover my wife's income until she found a new gig.
Lo and behold, doing two jobs simultaneously is surprisingly easy.
And Lord is it lucrative.
When leading, my default is to give people space. Unfortunately, that means if someone needs micro-managing I'm typically not the right person. This is different than mentoring, which I enjoy (not sure if I'm any good at it though ;) ). And obviously, I'm always there for questions. What I don't understand is how leads/managers have the time micromanage people. If a person can't trust their team to do a good job, then they should not be leading a team.
> but they started blaming me personally every time I pointed out any ways of improving the way we do things.
Even if it was your fault, this is wrong. All problems are the leads problems. The lead should be asking him/herself why you went around them to the manager? The manager should be asking the lead the same question.
I'm so happy I don't work in a big company anymore.
I've been on a job search for some time now in the same field which you're employed. I've had a number of interviews but I think things have stalled a few times when it's come to salary negotiation. I've been approaching things with the theory that the more I'm compensated the less likely I'd be in the situation you've described and the one I find myself currently in. So, I've been asking well above market rate in the hopes that if I find a taker I'd force the employer's hand in tasking me with non bullshit work.
Your story shoots that theory all to hell.
To me using cryptos as a derivative of existing fiat is the weak link in the chain as the anonymity all but goes away. And when that goes away the concerns you've stated reappear because decentralization is gone.
I was on $100K for doing a similar amount of depressingly simple or "easy" work, while being surrounded by people who felt or at least appeared stuck.
It seems like a dream but I also got really demotivated and my sharp skills quickly became stale and then one day I realised I didn't care enough to upskill again.
The job became more about appearance and saying the right things, showing your face in the right meetings, and claiming recognition for other people's work.
I've now shelved that career. The money wasn't worth the feeling of guilt or missing out. I think the hardest part was knowing I was getting paid double than people who worked 3X harder.